tv Ali Velshi on Target Al Jazeera May 12, 2015 10:30pm-11:01pm EDT
188 which again was headed from washington to new york appeared to have left the tracks. according to local reports the front of the train was going into a turn when it began to shake. video shows firefighters and other at the scene of the crash. emergency crews set up a staging area a couple of miles from the site. lisa stark long covered the transportation industry and joins us by phone. lisa, what will the n.t.s.b. be doing now, these are alarming pictures. >> they are, indeed. the national transport safety board is gathering information on the accident. there's no formal decision to launch a go-team investigators. i would be shocked if they didn't launch a team. it's a major collision of an amtrak trin on the busiest of amtrak said to the north-east corridor. popular trains from washington to new york and boston. at the moment they are gathering
information. we'll see what they end up doing this again is in philadelphia, amtrak train heading to new york city. we'll have the latest. now we'll leave you with "ali velshi on target" i'm "ali velshi on target." what if everything you had been told about the killing of osama bin laden was a lie? i'll get answers from the former head of pakistan's intelligence agency plus broken window broken trust. how police crackdown on small crime could have big consequences america needs a smarter war on terror, and pakistan, a key ally on the front since 9/11 stands accused of playing a double game with al qaeda and the taliban. controversial allegations from investigative journalist seymour
hurst are making some wonder whether much of what the obama administration told you about how osama bin laden was found and killed may be a live. seymour's allegations are so explosive that once again many are asking is pakistan friend or foe in america's war on terror. seymour hersch is a long-time journalist. he is associated with the new yorker and writes in a piece published in the london review of books that osama bin laden was not hiding he was a prisoner of the pakistani intelligence. senior pakistani leaders knew of the u.s. raid in advance, according to hersch and cleared pakistani air space for u.s. navy seal helicopters to fly in and conduct their mission unhindered. when the c.i.a. found out about osama bin laden's whereabouts through a paid informant, not
from one of osama bin laden's court yours. these and other allegations that hersch makes contradict the line that's been put out by the obama administration, and by pakistani officials. hersch is a legendary journalist covering the mili massacre of vietnamese citizens and the abuse of iraqi prisoners at abu ghraib. the white house and some noticeable delegates in the world denounced hersch's story calling it incredible and thinly sourced. since 9/11 the u.s. funnelled $20 billion in direct aid to pakistan. to help it fight al qaeda and the taliban in afghanistan. but they view india as a bigger threat to security then afghanistan. questions over pakistan's role as american friend or foe come
down to competing interest and pakistan's willingness to engage with groups of u.s. loathes. joining us is retired pakistani lieutenant general. he ran from 1990 to 1992. and served as the director of the interservice intelligence, the spy agency known as i.s.i. thank you so much for joining us, here is part of what you told seymour herch that osama bin laden had been a prisoner since 2006. she said: . >> is the version of osama bin laden's killing that's been given by the u.s. government a lie? >> it's not only mr hersch but
when i talked to him, i was thinking about a couple of other studies that had been - an signaturive journalist that had -- an investigative journalist former journalists and a colleague that wrote a book and reports that i have seen. all talk about pakistan cooperating as far as the operation was concerned. and the biggest proof of that is soon after the operation was over and when president obama was talking about it he thanked pakistan for his cooperation. that statement vanished. that is one part of it, why i think wherever mr hersch said so many people here were supportive of that. >> let me ask you about this. i'm glad you are hear discussing
this but a wall street blog made reference to an interview that you had, with my colleague at al jazeera english, and he said that: what is your response to that? >> i don't have any source, i'm not in touch with anyone. it does not mean one cannot carry out an assessment. one does that that is the assessment we did on day one believing that that is how the games would be played. and we know the proof, as i said was obama thinking. number two very importantly. i don't believe that despite stealth helicopters and so on. any government will take that big a risk to fly the
helicopters deep in the territory and carry out a mission that was so important that the stakes were so high. these are the bases on which i presented my pieces. i say i do not know what happened. this is my assessment. over a period of same a number of people came out with facts, with certain arguments that keep reinforceing this hypothesis of mine. >> in april you told al jazeera, that you believed that osama bin laden was handed over in exchange for an agreement on how to bring the afghan problem to an end. can you describe what you mean and what connection there might have been, and the u.s. military aid, the hefty aid that is given to pakistan approximately $20 billion has been handed over from the united states to
pakistan since 9/11. that deal was na pleas, what is the quid pro quo that pakistan would need to make a deal to hand osama bin laden over to the united states. >> what was worked out between the two sides, i do not know. if anything was told to me confidentially, i was not going to talk about it. luckily i do not know. it was moi assessment. money can be talked about in different context. that was not the most important thing. when i talked about the front-end game because it was a big miss, that anything that had to ben done was not done properly. that's where the difference between pakistan and the united states started. at that time to say you'll leave in any case how are we going to wrap up the mess much the grand consensus. how will we do that manage that. that is more important.
the money was not going to play a role in that in an interview with india's nbtv hillary clinton, who was the secretary of state, and now running for president, sites a quote that many from homeland will recognise. let me play it for you much. >> it's like keeping poisonous sneaks in your backyard expecting they'll only bite your neighbour. what we see now is the threat to the state of pakistan by these very same elements. >> this is a view that is reflected by the former defense secretary and president obama's robert gates, that pakistan should not be considered an ally by the united states in the fight against al qaeda. you ran the i.s.i. you know the players and the structure, can the united states trust pakistan in the fighting of extremism.
>> i don't think the countries trust each other. and there is never a need for that. if there is a common interest that can work together if you are talking about my time, when the soviets were there, you worked together well. after that the cooperation was not working. if we talk about this period in post 9/11. except for a first couple of years, i don't think pakistan and the united states were in agreement how to proceed with the so-called war op terror which remains how do we handle afghanistan. that's the difference. >> are you worried what hillary clinton said in the quote. if you keep snakes in the background, they may bite you, not your neighbours. >> people made the political statements, i never made up attention to that. i look at the situation on the ground. it started to change after the famous or infamous incident.
remember in 2011, when the americans killed 22 of our soldiers. we seized blocked the lines of communication for seven months. after that the two countries worked together. we belong to the region. what happens in afghanistan affects us differently than it does the united states. thank you for joining us the former director-general of i.s.i. and a retired lieutenant general in the pakistani army coming up police cracking down. the tactic helped to clean up new york city, but at what cost. "on target" back in
new york in the 1990s. it's a zero tolerance to crime cracking town on minor offenses to prevent bigger crime. with the deaths of eric garner in staten island and freddy gray in baltimore, critics charged the policy unfairly targetting minorities creating distrust. broken windows has been deployed in every police department and twice in new york. hoe said in works and critics have it wrong. one even two years ago 17-year-old dion flood and miss girlfriend squeezed through a turns style at the new york subway satisfaction on the swipe of a fair card. they committed a crime called turns style jumping. less than an hour later flood was battered, semiconscious and on his way to the hospital. >> his whole body was swollen.
he had a wrap around his head where the wound was, a bracelet on his net and shackles on the bottom of his feet why shackle? >> because he was under raft. >> and n.y.p.d. reports two officers watching from a nearby trash room had stopped the two teens. flood had had run-ins with the police before. his mum warned him the next time he would be tried as an adult. >> he took off running, sprinting down the platform and jumped on the tracks, where he was hit by a train. his mother said he told her a different story. >> he was saying that "mum i did not get hit by a train" one of them said "you want to run, we'll make sure your arse never run again" they stomped on him. he was kb okay okay" to get
them to stop. he died two months later. his mum is suing the city, a spokesman says the city has no comment. >> reporter: do you think your son would be alive if it was not a criminal offense to not pay your fare? >> yes. >> reporter: what do you think about the art that when someone runs -- argument that when someone run, they have something to hide. >> he didn't want to be arrested. i don't think it's an offense to go to gaol over. the police officers said it, they are on the hunt for certain individuals. >> reporter: what kind of individuals? >> black individuals. [ chanting ] the deaths of unarmed black men at the hands of police officers sparked protests against their particular, like the zero tolerance and the broken strategy. both tart petty crime crackdowns
to prevent serious crime. >> i have seen first hand all the negative impacts. >> activists like justine alderman say there's no proof broken windows helps to lower crime in new york. >> the types of offenses i see every day are not the offenses that are policed in rich affluent white neighbourhoods. being in the park after dark or riding your bicycle on the street corner. >> new york city focuses attention in minority areas. >> johnny is a new york police officer. >> they claim this is where all the crime is taking place, which may have some truth to it. however, when you get to the point where all you are doing is writing summonses, writing summonses making arrests, without working with people it's like an army of occupation. it does more harm than good.
>> "the new republic"'s police commissioner credits broken window making the city a safer place. it works, it's essential. it willin new york city. robberies, shootings and murders hit lows and arrests for misdemeanours like trespassing have fallen over the last few years. do you think minorities have been targeted. >> the reality is we live in a majority. you are not going to see it at any point in time, a majority being arrested. >> the n.y.p.d. says more than 80% of people arrested for misdemeanours are african-americans and his pap ibs, but make up half the population. the debate prompted the speaker to call for reforms. melissa told community leaders in east harlem she wants to treat minor offenses like
littering and turns style jumping like parking violation, not crimes that can keep the minorities out of the system. >> we cannot continue to to accuse those of low level offences without recognising dire long-term consequences to them and our city. >> in response bratton is offering his own proposal. keep treating low level offenses as crimes but give offices discretion to make rests or issue warnings and fines. >> it is emotional when they brought him to me. >> the proposal may have helped young black men like her son. >> they are too eager to throw the teenager's life away. >> if police don't reach out more to communities like hers
tensions rise. >> my heart hurt it still hurt. >> it's a sad story that a man is dead after jumping a turnstile. people will look at this from a macro perspective asking if this works. >> commissioner bratton sells you yes and told al jazeera it's a combination of factors. broken windows is a factor. but cited compstat, a method used to combat crime. there's a number of other factors. they point to more police on the streets, young people the economic boom of the 1990s, and it's a rise in the rate of incarceration. >> seems like the conversation can go two ways how the police handles it and the second is what the new york city council speaker says why not make them
like a parking ticket. what can you criminalize to stop people doing wrong things, but those that don't want a criminal record running from these and getting into problems. >> there is a number of things like riding the bike on the side walk, drinking in public being in the park after disturbing urinating in public. there's seen or eight offenses she want decriminalized. >> if you we talk to a police officer that used it on his beat. it, would, we are back in 2 minutes.
there are a lot of opinions about broken windows policing. a man that believes in the approach says he knows it works because he used it as a police officer for more than 20 years. john shane was on the force in clifton and newark new jersey and is an associate professor at john j, up the street. thank you for being with us. i think we can separate - there's two discussions - whether or not we should have the broken windows policing the idea of stopping things before they get out of hand, arrest or charge people, people committing
what we consider petty crimes. then there's the separate conversation that she showed us about what sometimes happens to people that are arrested. this fellow was beaten eric garner is dead. some are not injured, but they end up with criminal records and affects employability and pros possibilities in life. where do you come down. >> there's a couple of things. tactics and strategy are separate things. as a strategy it has its place research suggests that it's fine, it's been validated. there's research that suggests there could be a rise in citizen offenses. that is a trade off. it happens between keeping the city safe and identifying what you want in terms of a quality of life. society has to place a judgment on what it wants from the police force, does it want to tolerate the petty nooses affecting home -- nuisances, affecting
home values use of public parks and spaces. when i was in high school coming to new york city in 1992 you go to times square it was a circus disney now has a store. you want to talk about the transformation, it began with identifying and looking at quality of life issues wrapped around things like urinating in public selling loose cigarettes outside where a merchant is trying to make a living prostitution, homeless people living - all the social conditions. tactics are a story, you talk about what happens when police makes physical contact with people in the field. that looks at things like whether they use force, the demeanour, all the intersection and interpersonal skills elicit a reaction from someone else, if the police start in with heavy-handed tactics and come down on the side of talking to
someone in abrasive fashion, they'll be met with resistance. if they are there with other officers and explain what it is that needs to be done why they can't do the thing and they are gin an alternative like move along else it will result in a fine. >> as we heard, everyone agrees whether you sign up for the idea that broken windows works, this is something police need more training on including here in new york. let's accept that i take that at face value, what about the damage that this policing does to relationships between police and communities, because we have seen that these things tend to be deployed in minority communities more than in white communities. >> police officers as a matter of strategy deployment strategy police have to go where the complaints are and conditions exist. if they exist in nonwhite areas, that's where the police have to address the issues.
it's those issues that will spire at out of control. a great example is what happened in newark over the weekend. there was a mather's day event in the city that has been going on for years, it's fine there has been no problem. what happened after that is the crowd were out of control, grew rowdy, and it was from that crowd that the shooting occurred. that's the kind of thing where policing need to take a stand are we comfortable in drawing a conclusion that a guy that jumps a turnstile could end up with a gun and opens it up to the crowd. >> the reason i say yes is that has proven itself in the 1990s, when this strategy unfolded under bratton, when jack maple was here and they got into the transit system and stopped people for turnstile violations and fair invasions, they were carrying knives, warrants and
guns. muggings and robberies went down. that's a correlation. >> let's go back to 2002, criminologist put out a paper talking about lowered homicide rates in cities that did not noticeably alter policies, i'm bringing it up because that's the time period they are talking about. we have places like san diego. in most places across america crimes went down. some instituted broken windows. our policing is better all round. police have better sense of where crimes will occur. i say that from a research perspective. it's disentangling the social effects and organizational effects is not easy. all the other cities that you mentioned, i think i'm referencing the studies had a strategy under way. >> everyone was taking some
approach to different policing. many of them resulted in lower crime rates. we'll go to ferguson, missouri where the police were stopping lots of young black mails, giving them fines, they couldn't pay them there were three warrants. at some point, are we creating a system where we are criminalizing behaviour? >> well, look, there's a possibility the answer is yes, and i - i couch my statement in terms of what was that strategy linked to. were they just generating revenue for the city, or was someone behind the scenes analysing the data in what we call intelligence led policing. the disorder conditions wrapped around traffic and kids that are out on the street, and people on the curfew. is thatlinged to something else -- linked to something else with imperial evidence behind you. if the answer is no, you have to take a step back.
>> i'm with you on this. john shane with the criminal college of justice. tweet me. let me know what you think the rite balance is. breaking news anam track train de rails in new york. multiple injuries reported, we'll have the latest. destruction and despair, another powerful earthquake rocks nepal, dozens are killed thousands injured and a u.s. military helicopter is missing no criminal char