when they come and attack us it's a war he was attacking his son goes head to hate with. what israel's doing is deliberately choosing to slaughter house. just. what now for the so-called special relationship donald trump visits britain for the first time as president and insults prime minister theresa may he says her arrival will make a better leader and she ignored his advice on brad's it and migration how damaging is all that for the transatlantic allies this is inside story. hello and welcome to the program. in the respect british prime minister terrorism may might wonder whether this was really the best week for

a visit from done all tram right after a contentious nato summit and greeted by massive protests his first trip to london as u.s. president was always going to be awkward specially as may struggles to hold her earn government together with a never ending arguments about drugs that negotiations threatening to turn her conservative party apart only hours after arriving trump made her life even more difficult with scathing criticism in a newspaper interview we begin with lawrence lee who is at checkers the prime minister's country residence. it's taken the british government a full two years since the referendum to get to a point where on the day that donald trump arrives in the u.k. they can publish a documents that says that they are more or less leaving the european union except for a very small parts meaning that they can do trade deals with the rest of the world and in particular with the united states and so on the day that all trumps meeting

to resume a here at checkers the fact that he says apparently the u.s. deal is off. is about as damaging as you could possibly imagine for to resume a if there's a point in its that perhaps trump is correct on it's that the bit of regulator alignments between the u.k. and the e.u. allows for agriculture and food to maintain european standards and give the donald trump seems of a particular obsession with american farmers that would make it much more difficult for american farmers to sell their goods inside the u.k. on the rest of it trumps assertion flies directly in the face of the stated u.k. position that the very narrow relationship it would have in future with the european union would leave it free to do a bespoke trade deal with the united states and the reason why that's absolutely damaging to the reason may is because it means that critics on both sides can say well what have you got now if you haven't got

a proper trade deal now in the future with the european union and you no longer have a trade deal with the united states either then what have you got left and it's incredibly damaging because it implies that both sides are going to try to get or to change things to move one way or the other hard going to say you need to go back to a position where the u.k. leaves in every single detail disregarding all the problems with the border that entails in order to make donald trump happy equally the european union who are meeting the u.k. for its first seven go next week are bound to say to the u.k. side look as much as you want to leave do you really want to deal with donald trump when you actually don't know what he stands for why don't you just have a much softer breck's it and deal with us instead because at least we're consistent and so it places to reason may under the most enormous amount now of political pressure from all sides.

now let's introduce our panel in london where are joined by in don t. is the ad itself politics coach k. and author of brad's it what the hell happens now in washington d.c. we are joined by robert hunter he's a foreign policy and the former u.s. ambassador to nato and also in london we are joined by parma a professor in international politics at city university london an expert on american relations welcome to you all in i would like to start by asking you this do you think that this is purely a classic trump throwing remarks here and there or there's more to his scathing remarks no he pretty much just says the words that happened to be rising out of his mouth at any given moment he's not i don't really sign up to this idea that some parts of sort of the british political process sort of think that he's some kind of strategic genius and that it's all a very clever play in that he's actually trying to achieve all of these different

things i don't see that i just see him as this kind of rodin who would've it just dollars whatever it was like at any given moment if there's any threat or to it is the dismantlement of the liberal rules based order around the world he's basically kneecapping the w.t. oh he's undermining nato at this exact moment he's encouraging to reason may to do whether she come for the hardest possible breaks and he himself tries to undermine the e.u. but even that i don't think is a program that he can actually explain in any kind of real terms i think he basically just says whatever it is you happen to be thinking at the time robert we've heard a series of spectacular undiplomatic remarks here and that about nato about the about the multilateral institutions is that a massive and also recently about to resume is that a message that trump wants to convey here. well i think their message is that if bracks it is not done in

a good way that makes sense for the united states even though it's none of our business. if the united states has to choose between good trade deals with britain and trade deals with the european union which is ten times almost the size of our britain the united states will go with the european union i that's always been clear now the president said what he did to the sun tabloid newspaper he now claims that he was misquoted and but he did say it and he's not a child when it comes to the media in his press conference with mrs may at checkers he read a statement which said exactly the opposite we can have very good trade deals with one hundred i love britain is absolutely the best etc but he has sent this message which i hope will be taken on board by the british that frankly looking at it from the united states point of view breck's it is not really going to help britain in

terms or through ational with the united states in digits as what has just been saying about her as president szell in the us has just been saying basically trump during the press conference seems to be turning down he's butterick but do you think that this is almost too late and the damage done it has been done done to to resume. well i think we know that president trump. says a number of things he often has great color rhetorical flourishes and he makes pretty outrageous claims from time to time statements and then he falls back he doesn't necessarily change his position and i think the position he's taken fright from the very beginning is braggs it should happen there should be british withdrawal from the european union and he's also said that he'd agrees with national sovereignty being restored that is the same thing that the hard brigadiers are arguing about so i think his position hasn't changed and i think he's always

going to be looking to see how america is version of america and who can maximize its advantages and i i would argue that britain which is sliced away from the e.u. and the backing of a breeder trading block with all the experience of international trade negotiations that they have i think that will be a much more easy prey for the united states and i think they'd want to reduce britain in certain ways to a low wage low low tax economy to reduce this level of regulation and thereby make it services in particular like health care and financial services more easily accessible into the london and the u.k. market in the tramp seems to be saying basically that he's not impressed with the way to recently has been handling the brags that negotiations by being very soft what does he mean by soft what was he expecting her to do instead i mean she hasn't been soft particularly she's pursuing hardbacks it outside of the customs union in

the single market she's made a very mild attempt can't with a slightly more sensible position by signing up to a common rule book on goods she calls it a common rule book it's really just the book and that's really there to protect the car industry and there's a little bit of agriculture as well in the way that it trades with europe. i don't think the donald trump has a very clear idea of what it is that he's talking about in any sense with bricks i mean you could hear him as he tried to respond when they said what exactly what would you do sort of that if you walk away you're stuck he seems deeply confused as to the sort of can never was of complexity that would be involved that again i'm not i'm afraid to say i don't think that the president is really capable of coming up with a coherent thought on this he responds to quite instinctive senses of sort of nationalism national pride and an almost sort of mythical way that he thinks about these things as some kind of perpetual with zero sum war between nation states that's not true on any level on the level of trade or in the way that the e.u. works and they're never the brits and the operator i'm not sure what a very basic level about how international relations is conducted so i wouldn't put

it out of store in his analysis of this occasion or any kind of alternatives that he might propose. i mean we've seen trump lashing out there is a may without providing alternatives as to how she should have been doing business with the a you but from your own perspective this is a prime minister left with an unprecedented moment in the history of the of britain basically uncharted territory and she has to nothing gates through this uncharted territory to words a final budget what will the other options for her. well the option that i wish she had pursued was to say the referendum was merely advisory and parliament which has been sovereign for seven hundred years who really ought to take it on board and not directed it all now one thing i think want to understand this is not just about the international dimension and trump with a lot of other americans would like to be able to pick apart the european union and

deal with individual countries trump i think with like a weaker britain which is what i think we'll get but in addition what he did in his interview is he really not the props out from under the the prime minister in terms of a republic x. not just the direct criticism or but praising the man who very much was her job friends like this that don't come to dinner and that and then criticize the soup and maybe maybe do things this if they make it on drinkable industry it isn't tourism a left with and spectacular moment here which is basically eva to leave the e.u. or lose strategic partnership with the united states of america. i don't think it's a neither or the kind of zero sum game there the united states and britain have a very long standing relationships of relationship which has worked on all levels

intelligence in particular on nuclear weapons other military policy a kind of global strategy and the european union was a or the european project was to some extent a part of that as well it became much more as it went on it became a kind of federal dream that wasn't always part of the game plan i think and i think now effectively what britain has decided and whatever you like referendum or not britain has decided that it would wish to leave the key issue now is what is a realistic position to be taken so that broadly speaking we can continue as an economy on a society and culture and so on and to some extent we're going to have to maintain both relationships and that is what treason means problem is but the key problem i would say really going forward for britain as in the british working people is that they were likely to be heading towards a very low wage low tax economy which is going to be more and more deregulated and i think the united states is going to really enjoy that because they want to

introduce core a lot of their sort of services into the into the british economy as well ian the prime minister faces mounting pressure from the different members of the political establishment particular from her own party the state's business buy it from are they likely to precipitate her political demise. no i don't think so. that it doesn't really matter what trump says it's an incredibly sort of interesting to look at it's very dramatic it's the trickle but in terms of trees amaze korea only one thing really masses and that is the parliamentary conservative party and how much support she has on those benches now at the moment she is facing a kind of guerrilla warfare over the last sort of five days by members of a group called the european research group this is the hard core rump of hardbacks it says who consider brics an enormous sort of existential almost biblical level fight for the future of britain against european terror and again it's a lot about nonsense but nevertheless they believe that now they are the ones that

massive terror at the moment they don't have the numbers to destabilize so the question then becomes did trumps intervention hinder or help her in that regard in terms of hindering of course it plays in to review the boris johnson as prime minister in waiting and it gives some kind of sucker to some of those those groups and those people in the g however i don't know trump is how it in very low esteem in british political circles even among the majority of brits it's very little support he's considered quite on civilised quite uncouth not really an image that people want to project and i suspect that among the more pragmatic turion he's his intervention would actually have pushed them a little bit closer to have a kind of compromise arrangement or just thinking what if this is the kind of war that we're going to on the other side maybe we need to be very careful and terms of how we proceed with the e.u. so i think by the end of this it's come out pretty much need to on either side and drums comments on that make too much of a difference to how either way as embarrassing as that robust i mean trump has been suggesting or hint of the if she goes ahead with the deal then she should she

should forget about a deal a trade deal with the us whether we haven't seen any clarity about the content of that particular deal with the us what is it about. well he did say in the press conference the checkers reading a statement obviously written by these people that we're going to have a trade agreement with britain is going to be great and and it's nearly done and i and all of that but going back back for about mrs may stability i think it is for cause really i think it is correct that there are enough people in britain particularly the political class who have so discounted anything that trump does it might not have that much of an impact having said that i don't think it helped or any of it how for any at all because there is a reality behind what trungpa saying which is to say it again if indeed it comes down to a difference between dealing with little britain on trade and big european union on

trade the people in this country no matter who is president are going to choose the european union that's one reason that leaving leaving the european union i don't think as any point has been intelligent for people who really care about britain's future in the world industries how would you expect to a tourism a to emerge from this meeting with trump more skeptical cautious or more likely to be emboldened to pursue her policies while colleague from politico said i think the calculation is less to do with donald trump because it's quite predictable the kind of things he does and says but i think the calculation is it domestic within the party the conservative party but also related to the opposition party and i think the fear of a cold in that labor government following any kind of collapse of the may government at

a general election i think that is the thing which is probably likely to hold it together as much as it can the albrecht's it is i think they fear a coping government more than anything else so i think prison me therefore has a card to play either it's me or it's the labor party which is. now in the lead in the polls by two or three percent so i think she's going to stick to her guns stick to the bogeyman labor party as an alternative as a threat that's a fear and anxiety inducing thing and try to ride through this as is guerrilla warfare which was which is noted and has been intensifying lately and the die hard big city is basically one of the view that a divorce with the e.u. would pave the way for a strategic alliance with the united states of america against the backdrop of what we've seen over the last forty eight hours does that still seem to be a strong argument. you know it's always been a very weak argument it's not really the u.s. alone i mean it's mr canada or new zealand australia you'll notice these are all

english speaking countries i mean they took occasion about the commonwealth but they talked mostly about the anglosphere which is this kind of imaginary construct of english speaking countries which tells you something about what they're doing this isn't really some kind of well thought through trade policy or security policy or even a political one it is a coach or war that they are pursuing aid in asia from comes in and through europe which they consider a bit of a mess they don't want to need to do with it and they are way too many want to be with countries that they consider move coach pretty similar to them they are defeated by you know a variety of developments all of which have to do with the existence of objective reality one of them is trade flows one of them is geography one of them is the comparative size of economies and the security apparatus and these things are going in the way of their other petulant dreams nevertheless the fact that it is objective and demonstrably a very weak strategy we're not doing anything to stop them they'll pursue it but it has no almost no road ahead of them really with which to do so. someone who kicks

up the dust well he goes vowing to dismantle the political order the has prevailed since one nine hundred forty five including his k. they were loss. as the a nato and different is used as are concerned how of the americans been following what has been doing are they divided about it all that do they have people there believing it will. i think in regard to the issues we're talking about now most americans don't have a clue what it's about i think they were arrogant political class and not just the discredited lates but what most people who really are deep in gauging this transatlantic relationship is absolutely critical to the united states and a more solid nato is and frankly the more solid the european union is and frankly the more that britain is still in europe the better it's going to be for the united states to achieve its broader objectives in the world mr trump can be against

multilateralism he can be against the order as it's been in existence for a long time but most americans in the private sector the ngo sector and most people in politics think that mr trump don't know what he's talking about and what do you think would be the next step for the e.u. now that the of this saga with the trump do you think that there will be more receptive to. helping tourist some may negotiate the transition for the brigs it's . well i would think so i would think that they would want to retain some level of a kind of connection or custom union a relationship and so on and i think they see a kind a hard bragg's it here force which is opposed to it and you know i would assume that they would be happier with that but the key thing is that in a number of things have been said about the international order from one hundred forty five and what trump is doing to dismantle it or to disrupt it or whatever but

i think we have to remember that the european project was a part of that international system and that kind of resurrection of the order after after the second world war but that order was also had a number of deep flaws within it it wasn't inclusive of everybody around the world the other states as well and their challenging elements and it also led to be if you like a kind of globalization which has impact in different classes of people different classes of workers in a very different ways at least led to a great deal of inequality so if you like as a result of some of that a large number nationalisms have risen trump is one brags it is another but there are nationalisms in france and germany and italy and many other countries too so that is to say i don't think we can just say look trump caused all this trump is a symptom of these things and exacerbating it but in the end the key thing is if europe is wanting to stick together even want to survive they're going to have to do something which actually restores

a degree of national sovereignty so the governments of the you can actually deal with their domestic problems in a way which is which is not against the kind of underlying rules and the logic of a kind of super state or a federal state that many people wish for and this is exactly what i would like to ask in in against the backlash that is again that we've seen now against globalism multilateral institutions what is it that which the e.u. nato and other institutions should do do you think that they need to reinvent themselves to be able to cope with this new world reality. it depends on the organization that you are looking at i mean certainly in the e.u.'s case and they pretty much already know this or that they're not they're not moving quickly enough on it by any by any means is basically create a europe of concentric circles so you've already got a sort of preset out a terror of countries countries like norway and iceland that have this sort of economic relationship with europe not enough control over the rules but they're

outside of the political power that should have some extra democratic functions but into it so that people can have that arms went through a nation ship as a storage category in europe britain might have been quite attracted to that if some more of that democratic power was that they then have the e.u. level and they have the eurozone level where they're going to consolidate at least to some extent under the plans of mccrum and cool so you can have a three stage that allows countries to find that place and that seems a good moment for them to work on it nato itself you know that may be some arguments for some additional military expenditure countries but ultimately i don't think that there's a very legitimate attack on nato taking place right now this is an attempt to undermine it in the name of strong men like putin like drum and from people lunatic homicidal maniacs like donald trump seems apparently incredibly attracted by that is where that is on the w t o the dublin show actually has some issues on quite how democratic it is how many vetoes it off as member states and that's why

it's been so difficult to get most you actually trade rounds through trump's attack to attempt to undermine it through basically holding up judicial appointments that happened a court thing is very very harmful indeed but the only resources to it must be to face him down not a major reform interesting times indeed not only for britain or europe the us but also the rest of the world. and as it pama robert hunter thank you very much indeed for your contribution to the program unfortunately we're running out of time. and thank you to force you can see the program again and its time by visiting our website c.n.n. dot com for further discussion go to our facebook page facebook dot com for slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter our handle is a j inside story from the hash the whole team here by phone now.

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