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tv   Inside Story 2018 Ep 242  Al Jazeera  August 30, 2018 8:32pm-9:00pm +03

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second recession there in just three youths. donald trump is hoping for a new trade deal with canada canada's foreign minister says quote very intense negotiations are underway in washington on a revamped nafta trumps threaten to impose more tariffs on canadian car imports if it doesn't agree to join by friday and china is being accused of detaining more than a million weak muslims u.s. politicians have called for sanctions now against the chinese officials responsible there are also reports of torture and indoctrinate indoctrination in secret camps posy headlines here on al-jazeera inside story starts right now.
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china is accused of detaining more than a million muslims u.s. politicians have called for sanctions against the chinese officials responsible there are reports of torture and indoctrination in secret camps so are the basic religious called so why it's an entire people and just what this is inside story. hello and welcome to the program. the international day of the victims of enforced disappearances is commemorated by the united nations on thursday to remember the tens of thousands of people maybe hundreds of thousands of doctors by police or
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government agents in various countries around the world today's inside stories focusing on china and the western region of ching chong wei united nations here why it's experts say more than a million ethnic we're the being held in what resembles a massive internment camp shrouded in secrecy a sort of no right on china denies such camps exist but says criminals involved in minor offenses are sent to what it calls vocational education and employment training centers to help with their reintegration into society most were good as practice islam and speak a turkish language that's completely different from mandarin chinese ten million of them live mostly in the ching jungle region of western china ethnic tensions have risen over the years since nine hundred forty nine after the communist government encouraged the mass migration of han chinese workers share ethnic and cultural
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similarities with their neighbors in tajikistan. and mongolia china says its crackdown inching jan is to protect peace and prevent what it calls terrorism there have been ethnic bias in recent years in and we're going to separatist have been blamed for several attacks including one in beijing's challenge where into a thousand and thirteen. let's introduce our panel of experts in hong kong andrew young an international and into abandoned china strategist in nottingham in the u.k. andreea us for a lecturer at the university of nottingham and in cantelupe germany by sky edgy and sounds an expert on china's may not a policy welcome to all this andrew what is happening in the world areas the un
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says this is a forced a town by the government to. changed the very identity of the we're good people. i think i'm a the problem at the moment is china's fear of separatism now let's face it a separate doesn't is a no no for any country including democratic advance countries like spain. think about you know sort of catalonia but i think in china it's even more. and it gives more informs more and saya t. because it is a large area and of course it's not just the scene jank the people which is connected with the. eastern turkey stand terrorist movement elsewhere but also it would drive a separate there's a movement in tibet. and also in even in taiwan
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let alone hong kong and macau so i think that. china's beijing's. absolutely anxious to control the situation what has caused the problem you would look at the there the complexity of all the ethnic groups in china china as a multiethnic country consisting of the six ethnic groups of course the hang chinese accounts for more than ninety five percent of the total population but there are you know sort of over five body ethnic groups and only the. the. first and the tibetans are causing problems the rest are living in ok great harmony with the hang chinese but that now the reason is because in recent years as you highlighted earlier there was a must migration of the hang chinese into seeing django and then disenchant people
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feel that they're being overwhelmed and also. feel that those erosion of their culture and access to jobs and soar so forth so the kind of measures a president measures. can be counterproductive. ok. does the feel of extremism justify putting one million people is a sort of defense detention forcing them to change the system of beliefs well first of all i would like to thank you. for bringing to your audiences attention the fact that hundreds of thousands of weekers are indeed held in political reeducation camps in their homeland seemed young and i for greed to come to you know on to this show because i believe that facing a situation like that the community of china scholars cannot remain silent to
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answer your question directly i don't think that any of these measures are justifiable the kind of response we've just heard from andrew is indefensible because of course you know separatist movements exist in various countries but then never it existence of dissent never justifies such draconian measures. because what we're seeing in mainland china is basically implementation of a highly racist policy aimed squarely at an ethnic group where anyone regardless of his or her political or religious views can be swept up in these and turman camps and that has huge problem it's something that we need to talk about because it's unacceptable. adrian are we talking here about a push by the chinese government to contain the whys of what it is quiet as extremism or
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a planned attempt by the government to change the identity of an entire people well from the chinese perspective it is probably both both are being conflated it's probably chinese they hate them any sense of a people being different and especially a sense of people being religious has always been seen with suspicion. there we go to an ethnic group that have different historic and linguistic and cultural identity of a long time as a matter of fact very few of them are seriously interested in some kind of independence but the problem is a step that china has long had a sense of touch with but distance to these people. therefore or for the chinese state in many ways reducing cultural difference or linguistic big difference and especially reducing or suppressing religious identity is crippling to counter terrorism and that's in many ways but we're seeing and india. andrew
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young the good chinese government has said over the past few months they basically are trying to improve the living standards of the people in the winter area but here's a problem with that with this particular approach i mean how can you defend some sort of big brother society in warden times and say that people need to go to reeducation centers to be sort of indoctrinated i mean who accept such a policy in these days i think there is no doubt that in the socorro in the problems in china in such a scene sharing and also tibetan some of the more remote problems that the. economic development has been phenomenal i mean the chip are chidi people capital. the life expectancy the literacy rates are all measures that are improving but then on the other hand there is a cultural and ethnic religious divide between the hang chinese as well as
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the. the native. groups particularly in cinching and tibet for example. they because they're these are rather remote areas in the past and so they they they tend to regard their culture. from the from the other. groups in them. major ethnic groups like to hang chinese in china for a long time but nevertheless it's not as if they're completely segregated if you look at history back in the even the. the main dynasty or the chain dynasty in the dating back several hundred years ago there were or already about thirty percent of the hang chinese. hang group in the province but then the recent years the problems of of ethnic conflict seem to have flare up because the division between the access to the jobs markets
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has become much more prudent put downs and there was even a much much larger number of hang chinese settling in. the room she and others and the other problem is of course our sultan tibet which is the area we just associate it with the eastern turkey stan movement and the and that is the link together with other you know sort of terrorist groups elsewhere. and of course they there are back in the in recent years quite a number of terrorist activities. cost china as china grows in international gravitas is subject to to all these perceived threats on that from the west or right wing ideology so that that's why there was a feedback there of repressive measures so andrea is are we talking here about just to to to further explain the whole issue to our or yours are we talking about
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ethnic discrimination religious persecution or is there is more to this particular story about the chinese government and the were goods. sure i mean i think when we just listen to andrew it's quite clear that we shouldn't be hoodwinked by these kind of phony arguments about development status. etc the real issue here is that the chinese coast party is using extra traditional extrajudicial measures to imprison. chinese citizens because week or so of course chinese citizens against it's own loss so for example when you read the legal commentary about the situation there actually no rules and regulations that justify these actions. the party's of course not bound by the rule of law it uses the rule by law to govern china but there is no constitutional basis or no law that
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law chinese law that allows the indefinite. internment of people now of course there is now a law that exists which is the counterterrorism war. which allows for what's called educational placement and that could indeed be indefinite but anyone who is then placed under such educational placement would have to be indicted first on terrorist charge this. go through a legal process of imprisonment and then after being released from prison and then discard you know take place but clearly one hundred thousand close to a million of we who are ending up in this in in in these camps they are not terrorists they're probably not even close to a terrorist sympathiser so to to justify that by any measure is highly problematic
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adrian activists have been saying that for example in two thousand and seventeen one fifth of all the arrests in china have been made in the chin junk which it could this be an indication that the government has completely failed to find a political way out of the problem and the snow is moving one notch further to worse harsh measures. the government if we look at this historically has tried several approaches in the one nine hundred ninety s. and early two thousand we see a developmental best approach from the great western development initiative with the belief that large injections of funding from the top down would make a profound change in the region cost it has cost many a problematic side of it such as an influx of concept less than a strategy was to bring in attention to a strong mental formally realty bet and he recruited. tens of thousands close to one hundred thousand new police buildings thousands of new police stations
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installing sophisticated surveillance technology facial recognition cameras now the interesting thing is this reeducation drive represents an entirely new dimension something that we have not seen in other parts of china on this scale in recent history not into tibet so this is the next level and i believe we can only speculate in some ways what the actual reasons are but i believe that the chinese government feels you can't just put out a police man next to every reader they're looking for lock onto a solution what is the long term solution it is as governments documents call it and i repeat this it is as government documents call it seeking a heart changed so the long term change is to really change and then hire people. resulting however in the criminalization of the entire belief system ok mr undue i
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mean in theory change young is considered under thomas region with a self-appointed local government but you know everyone knows that the guy who calls the final shots is chan war the man who has been in tibet known for his harsh measures an out and first policy. many are concerned that the man is trying to completely clamp down on dissent and opposition in the region well i think this is a. circle. the more beijing is anxious about the separatist movements and the perpetration of terrorist acts and the press perceived foreign interference in trying to foment their fragmentation of china the more beijing tightens the grip but that that is counterproductive as i was saying on the one hand of course the economic benefits and infrastructural
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links with the rest of the provinces would help the that these remote regions of the world but on the other hand you're talking about us as you're talking about. to announce their ethnic. sorry to interrupt you here talking about the change and region as a poor area it has massive natural resources potential it's a rich region on its own the problem is not this the problem is purely about persecution here here. as i was saying that the these repressive measures are competent active and there is a wish a circle the more beijing imposes these measures on. a sector sector of the of the young people the more they're likely to feel strange and reap. and reactive against the beijing government so i think that there's.
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but on the other hand there is no way that the beijing would just let go because this isn't the existential swept the whole whole country and in fact no country would allow separately we're talking about eleven million people out of a national saying more than thirty a billion people i mean why would this be considered as an existential threat this this should be the core of democracy of respecting the rights or the minority and under well i mean you would look at the area of scene jan it is huge i mean it is one of the largest problems as in china. and so you know even in terms of numbers that may be relatively small percentage but on the other hand there is a and impact and effect what about tibet and he backed also you look at a number of tibet and people the number is not that large but over there on the other hand the problems that can he ok and not only that in terms of size but in terms of as you mentioned earlier resources and the connectivity of china with
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a burn role for the rest of the world let's talk a little bit now about the international reaction this is going to be my question to undress i mean there's been a report by the united nations about a few weeks ago now there's this letter by u.s. senator and congressman saying that there needs to be some strong robust reaction particularly imposing sanctions on to individuals companies and anyone who sponsor before the atrocities committed against the were good people do you think that the americans would follow suit and take action. well first of all jessica from china made the suggestion and i think it's a very good suggestion to u.s. policymakers to make good use of the global magnitsky act which allows the american government to. block the property the overseas property of individuals who have engaged in and then make human rights abuses and corruption now i would think
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that the straw man. or very likely qualifies for being a subject to the global magnitsky act and this is something that could be considered more widely because i think for the international community whether it's the united states the european union or any other country. to just turn a blind eye to the situation in is not an option if any one of your viewers are rightly a concern for example about the racist immigration policies of the trumpet mr ation where families are being ripped apart bear in mind that what's happening in sin young is far worse that the scope of the problem is far bigger and that much much more families are being ripped apart as we speak and many of the children of the imprisoned weekers are actually now a growing up in chains often it is now i think that is totally and utterly unacceptable we have an obligation to speak out about these kind of things and i
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think a very practical step beyond government is that. people around the world should educate themselves about what is happening in by following the news for example dialogue from the asia research center china dialogue from university of berkeley or china file from the asia society which have been doing x. excellent work on on change on and bringing information up to date information about the situation on the ground ageing and in a country like china which has historically been thin skinned when it comes to international criticism do you think that if we build up in the man term if there's been a man term in the of the u.s. and e.u. the u.s. that could pay off or ultimately end up being counter productive now on the one hand there is the possibility that the chinese position will be heartened by being challenged in an international way however we also need to consider that
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the chinese are at a time where they're really trying to can build the rest of the world their progress stopped dead about mint and in a sense of their. understanding of the world order. for the chinese i think are inherently interested in how they're being see specially in a context narked about the road initiative now young of course is the so-called core hub up the mountain road initiative nearly all transport that goes on land routes passes oceans young a lot of the strategic economic development is happening there and therefore i believe this is being race internationally in a snap and systematic way what's happening in the i believe this is actually very necessary and if it turns out to hardening the chinese position i still believe there is a risk that should be taken mr under we're talking about. of the end of the day we're talking about china one of the biggest economies in the world are many
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governments are scared to the point of raising this issue with the chinese government is this something that year thing could embolden the chinese government to continue its clamp down on the way guess. well i mean this is not the first time perceive purchase. of a human rights raised their eyebrows in the west and in fact that china has been taken to task in many forms including the united nations and other. venues but i think that at this particular time again raising this question in a more aggressive way against china could feed into this kind of wish a circle because i think that there is a perception now with a trade war with the united states with the the west raising where as concerns part china there is a perception that the whole world is ganging up against china in more ways than one
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economically financially militarily and now ideologically but all the other hand it is right and proper for the west to do to raise these issues but i think there are many other ways as well to engage the chinese government ok especially through programs or think tanks or academic forums and even. the cooperation with various n.g.o.s and so on and i think that there is one problem for these three races but one has got to understand where china is coming from with do we do under is this going to be my last question in less than a minute in this strange world and really old was basically saying where the populists are taken over where the far right governments now are emerging do you think that the minorities will have to wait a long time before they can have their own whites. respected. what certainly i think one of the issues is that the chinese citizens or those who reside within
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the people's republic of china and those who are living all over the world they have to pay attention as well and i think. i don't think that the chinese counterparty actually act in their name the things that happen it's you know probably most chinese people chases now are not aware off if they are aware i think they would take a very critical view of such government actions and i think ultimately it will depend on how traces and view this. country or spalled are dreams and thank you very much indeed looking forward to seeing you in the near future and thank you again for watching the program you can see inside story again any time by visiting our website dot com for further discussion go to our facebook page that's facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter and that is a j inside story for me hashem while on the whole team here bye for now.
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as europe's public opinion shifted couscous slavery's abolition care for yours where human exploitation took on new homes as a whole slate that became the hidden face of europe's industrial revolution the history of slavery is not the black history and it's not just the history of white colonization but the history of human equality it is the legacy for all of us the slaveries new friend teams three of slavery in the us on al-jazeera.
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