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tv   Up Front 2018 Ep 13  Al Jazeera  September 17, 2018 11:32am-12:01pm +03

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capitol last week. florence has been downgraded to a tropical depression but continues to bring heavy rain to the united states the city of wilmington in north carolina is cut off by rising floodwaters more than a dozen people have died officials are planning to airlift food and water there the u.s. president on the controversial nominee to the supreme court brett kavanaugh is now facing allegations of sexual assault a woman has approached the washington post newspaper saying she was assaulted by him when she was in high school and members of the senate judiciary committee that are supposed to vote on mr cavernous appointment on thursday calling for a delay. plenty more news of course whenever you want it on our website the address al jazeera dot com you can also talk to us on facebook and twitter as well tweet me at peter dhabi one up next it's up front i'll see you in thirty minutes.
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we understand the differences and the similarities of colton's across the world. no matter where you call her in algiers the internet will bring in the news and current of families that matter to live. out easy and. as trump kicks the p.l.o. out of washington and cuts funding to palestinian refugees is this the moment benjamin netanyahu claims victory i'll challenge one of these really prime minister's closest allies. i met the hot sun also on the show the chinese government denies allegations it's holding up to a million a week limited detention camps and says it's facing a threat from extremist and separatists but how could that justify such astonishingly were pressing measures that's our debate but first the israeli
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government has not much to celebrate this year from the u.s. embassy move to jerusalem to a trumpet ministration that's firmly in israel's corner and continues to penalize the palestinians so have netanyahu won this week's headliner former israeli foreign ministry chief and close ally of the prime minister dori gold. during a gold francs for joining me up front in the last couple of weeks the united states government the trumpeter ministration has cut funding to the un refugee agency which looks after palestinian refugees have cut funding to palestinian cancer patients have shut down the washington d.c. mission of the p.l.o. the representative body of the palestinian people you must be delighted we don't get to lie that in the problems of the palestinians you know for us it would be better that these issues not happen and that we could just sit in the goshi and reach an agreement a lot of this is self inflicted punishment on the part of the palestinians they
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knew that if they start playing around with the international criminal court there is american legislation that was adopted in two thousand and fifteen which says that will have implications for their offices in washington that wasn't a donald trump. invention that was done back then you say you want to solve the conflict you'll former ambassador to washington d.c. israeli politician michael oren says quote the americans are punishing the palestinians in order to make them return to the table what table is that by the way because there doesn't seem to be anything to return to what are you willing to actually offer the palestinians an actual state well we're not going to start negotiating on television and michael oren has his interpretation would you admit mine is a little bit different i have ideas and i've sat with palestinians for years talking about alternative models for solving this problem let us get to a table and let us put those ideas out and let's try and resolve this once and for
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all in one's very important sense what president trump is doing he's trying to introduce realism don't start believing that you can get five million refugees to return to israel it's not going to happen and if you start believing that propaganda you'll never negotiate a solution which people are going to accept being treated like this year after year decade after decade as the palestinians have you're only going to make them much more nationalistic than they already were by treating them in this fashion. in my view the important way to move forward is to address the issue of deep dignity the dignity of the palestinians is more important than the amount of land we're talking about so frankly that's my point of departure it's different than people who just say it's a matter of percentage of territory but it's easy to say the percentages of terror you don't matter when you control a hundred percent of the territory but just to be clear because i know most members of these already cabinet don't support a two state solution the prime minister himself you'll form
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a boss your friend netanyahu has said he is only offering a quote unquote state minus to the palestinians so what is your position dori gold do you support a two state solution and this is about negotiating on t.v. do you support in principle a two state solution as the end goal to this process quote unquote yes or no. i would rather not answer that but i will say that palestinian self-government does not frighten me i'm not i don't want to just put things into slogans we have to sit down and work this out right now we now have new regional players who can have a very constructive role i'm talking about the arab states there's the whole question of of developing facilities for gaza mostly to be in palestinian sovereign territory in the gaza strip i gather it's all if you want your mind according to the u.n. not to solve them just fit this into no no it's very similar to most people in the world in most governments of the world including in former israeli government said
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they support a two state solution or they don't support a two state solution it's a very simple question do you support a two state solution i'm going to take your silence as no you don't know i have no problem with the powers that even state as long as we have defensible borders for israel and a arrangement that protects religious pluralism in the whole area i don't want to go into further detail than that but i think that we have to retain our vital defense needs and that is. not a simple solution the international community shouldn't judge us it shouldn't build up our expectations that israel is going to do a split keys and get rid of all the territory captured in a war of self-defense and six and seven it has to come up with materialize and i think the international community would say that giving up occupied territories is a little strip of his that is the thing with international law but just on the peace plan itself you can't seriously believe that the three people donald trump has put in charge of coming up with a peace plan his son in law jared krishna his former real estate and bankruptcy
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lawyers david friedman and jason green but none of whom have any experience in diplomacy or peacemaking all of whom are hard core supporters of illegal settlements two of them have even given money to settlements that's that's the trio that's going to bring peace to the middle east seriously you know jimmy carter. secretary of state whose name was cyrus vance and he came from the world of wall street law firms so you know everybody comes from somewhere the questions where they have a capacity to listen to come up with creative answers and to keep everybody on board right now everybody who claims that he's knowledgeable about the middle east has utterly failed there has not been a successful american peace initiative really i would say since camp david with egypt it's not just about their complete lack of knowledge of qualifications also their blatant bias as plenty of people even in washington d.c. have pointed out the u.s. at least pretended to be an honest broker it's never been an honest broker
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brittney's pretend now it doesn't even bother would you be ok if the u.s. government sent three arab americans or conservative muslim americans who donated money to palestinian groups to be them a negotiators on this conflict you'd lose your mind in israel if that happened i look at the behavior of an individual i don't look at what card yeah the behavior is that they gave money to illegal settlements how can they be negotiated between palestine and the israeli government would you accept negotiate is like. if you were a palestinian. here i'm here i'm out i speak with palestinians i have negotiate with palestinians in one thousand nine hundred six i sat with abu maza in for hours in martin indyk house and hurts aliyah and you know we can work solutions not solve everything but if we show each other respect and if we're serious we can move forward do we go i want to talk about prime minister netanyahu himself you've been a close ally of his for many years now some would say that netanyahu quite like
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strongman and dictate to them authoritarian leaders even of the anti semitic variety he recently cozied up to hungary's prime minister viktor orban who's praised hungary's pro nazi world war two government who traffics an anti-semitic conspiracy theories he just hosted philippine president rhodri could determine who's happily compared himself to. is this really the company now that the israeli prime minister keeps you know we're trying to broaden our international connections all around the world in asia in africa in latin america as prime minister has led a an amazing effort to do that you know there's a big difference in viktor orbán and the anti semitic party that runs in the parliament you know you can't you can't give everybody the same broad brush. phrase the hungary in leader who worked with the nazis miklos whole feel you ok with now. no i don't like that but you know what around
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the world you have all kinds of governments we have all kinds of understandings of history that you don't agree with you have to express your view it's important to stand up in hungary and talk about the lessons of the holocaust but you don't have to agree with everything that. the your body as some would say that it's not a surprise this star of netanyahu has given himself made racist comments about arab voters coming out to vote in droves during the last election and israel is becoming a more and more racist place some would say the nation state law for example controversially passed over the summer says quote the right to exercise national self-determination in israel is unique to the jewish people only it makes hebrew the country's official language downgrades the status of arabic and establishes jewish settlement as a national value without mentioning a single word about equality or minority rights. i suggest you read the balfour declaration which incisions he jewish homeland didn't talk about an arab homeland
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did that mean that lord balfour and the british government were racist. or they were trying to help other people who had been downtrodden who lost their homeland but were determined to recover many would argue lord balfour was on to somebody's going to pass but the point is that many israeli politicians voted against this law because they don't see it as in line with jewish history or even with israeli history this is a new and very right wing move plenty of israeli politicians voted against it israeli palestinian legislators called it apartheid members of your own parliament even the bipartisan head of the israeli democracy institute condemned it as an unnecessary embarrassment to israel it's jingoistic and divisive. well you know as director general ministry of foreign affairs i led the israeli delegations to south africa i sat with the foreign minister of south africa and no one calls us in the part of that state because they understand the real suffering under the part and
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they don't want to. brand us with that accusation and they know that in apartheid south africa there were hospitals for blacks and hospitals for whites you go to the emergency room and have das a hospital and you will see jewish doctors taking care of their patients and the other way around we are not an apartheid state we are a state with equality for all people that's completely false what you just said plenty of senior a.n.c. politicians south african country part of companies have called israel an apartheid state desmond tutu has talked about seeing apartheid on the ground when he visited israel in the occupied territories but put that to one side whether it's apartheid or not what would you call a country in which one group of people have an exclusive right to self-determination based on race and religion and twenty percent of the population doesn't what do you call that country if not apartheid because that's what your nation state nor isn't trying and nations has nothing new in it it has to do with constitutional problems we have in israel of the president of israel has intervened
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in the debate come on don't i don't you are misleading the audience you know it was a hugely controversial law the president of your country intervened to condemn an earlier version of it please don't say this is just some uncontroversial continuation of the balfour declaration don't insult our intelligence no it is an internal debate it is illegitimate internal debate that has to do with the powers of the supreme court and its fed don't get it and that's not true it's a specifically says assets only the jewish people in israel have a right to self-determination where does that leave the twenty percent of the population who are palestinian i think that the law is there to make clear that israel is the national homeland of the jewish people. that's and that's why it was set up i asked a very specific question during all this will do palestinians in israel have a right to self-determination or are they second class citizens behind the jews who have an exclusive a unique right is what the law says to self-determination
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a unique right for one group of people the state of israel was set up originally because the jews had been so discriminated against and so oppressed in countries leading up to the whole accost that there had to be one homeland one place where they could claim a right of self-determination that's all that was referring to so do you deny palestinian self-determination inside of israel palestinian citizen israel have no right to self-determination you agree with the loral not i would say i would deny the rights of canadians to have self-determination inside the united states i would deny the rights of mexicans to have a right of self-determination so the palestinians that you are now telling of this t.v. show the one fifth of the population of israel are foreigners they are equivalent to canadians living in the united states that's quite an admission i've interviewed israelis for years and i've always been told by israeli spokesmen everyone's equal in israel you're now saying no palestinians are they quit of canadians in america that's an astonishing statement well i am saying that we have
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a state for the jewish people that has been established we have to resolve the israeli palestinian conflict and there will be a palestinian national entity with their national self expression can be fully expressed so have just a belief dori gold i don't want to put words in your mouth just to be very clear you're saying that the one fifth of the israeli population who are palestinians who are told me a moment ago are equally treated in israeli hospitals that they should leave to go to a palestinian state now under this law i didn't say that i didn't say they have to leave this is going to be a state it is a state for the jewish people that will give equal with the two others who live here whether they are powers that is not what the north has with their deludes or whatever. national which is the world during gold will have to leave it there thank you for joining me on up front. in what's been said to resemble a massive internment camp shrouded in secrecy china is being accused of detaining
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up to one million we good muslims in it xinjiang region under what u.n. experts have called a pretext of countering terrorism and religious extremism over the past decade human rights groups have documented widespread repression of the ethnic minority from battling religious customs to forcing weakness to change their muslim names and attend communist party rallies beijing however denies allegations of mass detentions and discrimination it says strict security measures in jail are aimed at preserving stability and preventing deadly attacks but is the government crackdown only going to lead to more unrest and more violence and although we get is really a threat to chinese national security joining me to discuss this are nuri turkel chairman of the we go human rights project in washington d.c. and from beijing victor gao vice president of the center for china and globalization a chinese think tank thank you both for joining me in the arena victor let me start with you hundreds of thousands of we get perhaps up to
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a million according to un investigators have been detained in the xinjiang region without trial without charge in reeducation camps how on earth can anyone justify that. no such allegation is completely groundless and i think of they are designed to mislead the world. people are a very important a minority of one of the fifty six ethnic groups in china they are a proud member of the chinese nation and i personally have many friends here in beijing as well as in many citizenship just to say that people are a threat to the chinese nation that's completely ungrounded again indeed there are small groups of wiggle extremists who want to achieve so-called independence for joan for example they are related to the overseas terrorist groups they fight in afghanistan against american troops against a naval troops now the fighting in syria for example these people are not only
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a threat to china but also a third to the united states and to nato and to many countries in the world therefore i think we need to close ranks to fight against this particular terrorist groups among the. united nations claims the amnesty claimed about mass detentions are all groundless victor if that's what they claim why don't they allow independent observers media to get access as you may know buzz feed a reporter reporting on china in china just kicked out of the country what are they hiding for victor we have satellite imagery showing that there are camps they are growing in size are we not supposed to believe our own lying eyes now i think the reports do not exist in line with the realities in cian joe altogether there are about six or seven million people you are talking about let's say one billion for the six or seven million we go people that's ludicrous these are not facts these
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obvious leading things tried to do for you tried to confuse the world nori it is undeniable there have been deadly attacks carried out in china by groups including by the so-called turkistan islamic party which the e.u. the u.k. the us have all designated a terrorist organization the chinese government isn't making up the security threat is it let me look even if you don't agree with. every country has a right to defend itself. end of the story period but locking up a few million people in concentration camps the claim of achieving social stability national security is it doesn't make any sense when you look at who they have been holding up you would be surprised the population pool we have religious leaders we have a humanitarian individuals who philanthropist business leaders we have a people in academia new york times just reported fifty two years old and the
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apologies have been disappeared we have. that the economist economy or civil society also sent out a service that is really has nothing to actually there is only you can only spend so much because there is trying very hard to bring but i don't know spring victor back and let me also get to this victor what is the security justification for banning we good parents from naming their sons mohammed banning we get children from entering mosques banning government employees in xinjiang from fasting during ramadan banning men from growing quote abnormally long beards how is that not state sponsored persecution and discrimination against we go muslims. not based on my personal experience and observation what you said is not the truth. other parts of china mosques are very very busy these days in many parts. of the first fall there is a reaction also mccall mark some of the measure young that a lot. of us reaches for it specifically sanctions their normal
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behavior such as growing beer carrying islamic names even marrying weaker people is considered extremist in that law you can read that law and also as you know there is a law that governs come to terrorism issues which is government not only violating its international obligations but also violating its all domestic laws constitution and criminal procedures even counter terrorism law so you cannot deny victor let's be honest your government is violating their own laws period i know the importance of law is in china i really hope everyone respects the law however the major threat we face is terrorism and extremism and separatism and i've seen the authorities have a right to make sure it will some people are not harmed and that extreme version of religion of all kinds is not penetrating through the population and then people
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cannot please use religion as an excuse to stir up trouble to destabilize and to bring the society to a halt and i think the people are justified to that let me ask you this nuri vic to keep talking about separatism being a threat we know you said you don't support terrorism as we couldn't support terrorism but on the issue of separatism are organizations like your own and other we're going to additions around the world are they only campaigning for the human rights of we living in xinjiang who according to all human rights groups and u.n. officials are having their human rights abuse or are you going a step further are you saying actually we want an independent so-called east turkistan. which existed perhaps for a few years in the late one nine hundred forty is that what you're calling for because if you are then it's understandable at least that the chinese government are going to tolerate that most government democratic or otherwise ok would separatist groups in trying to break up because of how to use a google would know what the organization that i work with stands for we've worked to achieve the right to self-determination through peaceful and democratic mean
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when you say self-determination what does that mean you do want to understand our affairs we want to be treated with the respect that's what i always think do you want an independent state separate from china you know maybe we was one of the have independent state can you understand the chinese government like many other governments are going to be ok with the chinese government in a way creating it and call me old resistance among the weakness with their root those policies ok let's put that point of it did you get that point that you were driving we get more into the arms of extreme groups separatist groups making the much more anti colonial there are three. three evils in valving certain parts of the week. that is separatism terrorism and extremism and there are extreme elements amount that we call people who want to let's say achieve so-called independence of gigia in china according to the chinese law this is treason this is separatism ok if you do not ask question of your very good old boy
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it is very straightforward question allow him to walk that's what i asked i asked if you lock people up if you treat them like enemies of the state to quote un investigators is that not more likely to make them upset angry and more or less likely to be want to be part of china. it's pretty straightforward and i think we need to be realistic and pragmatic as well as philosophical i see a couple of good to be very honest justified. based on our show that the history is all evils cannot be tolerated do you accept any mistreatment of the we are doing everything finance is three d. to do you think everything is fine in this because one chinese official said that we good muslims in xinjiang of the happiest muslims in the world do you agree with that rather absurd statement there we go people are a very proud member of the chinese nation they are very important parts of the chinese civilization they believe. the majority of the people here in china
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ball best believe buddhism we have different places that's a reality however there are pas your government is atrocities in london as a mental disease it ourselves around here sisters be honest your government that's is off line treating and perceiving we were islam is a mental disease this is listen to me if i practice all three evils i'll be arrested i may be detained i may be sentenced to many years in this are we not talk you have the truth you have all of this it is of you cannot practice extremism separatism by the terrors we're not talking about that is what we're facing a par university particular fact is that economists reserve externalism best also art is the layer museum will give me the eagle consequences ok we're going to have to wrap it up one final question to nuri isn't the problem for the we get is that even when the united nations investigators come out and say there may be a million people may have been detained the world isn't really going to do much
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other because the chinese government isn't the kind of government you could push around or sanction or intimidate muslim majority countries are going to care about that we go muslims because they've got financial and trade deals with china investment deals what actually do you expect the international community to do they can do a lot stuff of. number one they can sanction those politicians the political leaders in china who are responsible for the egregious human rights violations taking place today in number two they should use its international influence china still cares about its international image the face saving is a huge concern for the chinese government using in gauge meant using legal tools if well but their disposal and also perhaps linking the human rights issues that we should to do trade dialogue might be a possible solution in the short term nuri would have to leave it there nuri turkel victor gao thank you both for joining me in the arena to debate this very controversial issue that sounds showed from will be back next week.
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of falling places closer than anything. going on says together these cats are always. the search for survivors in the philippines after a landslide caused by typhoon man caught. alone welcome on peter w. watching al-jazeera live from the also coming up south korea cautioning against raising expectations ahead of the summit between one g. in a north korea's kim jong il. a confirmation hearing for president donald trump supreme court nominee hits a road.


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