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tv   Inside Story  Al Jazeera  May 7, 2022 2:30pm-3:01pm AST

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good people receiving help the rescue teams, the specialized emergency forces. we have debts. unfortunately, the hospitals are dealing with the injured explosion. damaged other buildings around the hotel to there were worries, especially about a nearby primary school authority. so that, thankfully the children and teachers there are okay. holdings in have, i'm as beautiful with disintegrates. an old term often suffer fooling masonry, but explosions are rare. this one was shot be island. john homan out visitor. thousands of people in the us state of new mexico have been told to be ready to evacuate at short notice because of wildfires. strong winds are expected to speed up the spread of fires in the north of the state. they've already been through almost 700 square kilometers of land near the city of santa fe. ah,
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this is al jazeera, these are our top stories. emmanuel micron has been sworn in for a 2nd term as french president. he's promised to build a stronger france and the face of unprecedented challenges. beautiful prophecy. so to vicki dizziness, he'll present it to french, people who choose their representatives, and president gra, giving me this mandate to day. the french people have not extended my turn that began 2017. the new france different to the other 5 years ago, have given a new president and new mandate, upgrades fired what's believed to be a ballistic missile for the 2nd time this week. and far as a warning from the you asked that pyongyang could be preparing to test nuclear missiles later this month. russia is rehearsing for his annual victory parade on monday mark in the anniversary of nazi germany surrender. in the 2nd world war. i'll be a cuff, you around the crane inputs. if you have a death from sunday because of worries about russia and celebrations, it's
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a final day of campaigning. head of monday's presidential election, philippines, a leading candidate so far as the marcos junior and vice president that he wrote, braden tell about leaders in afghanistan have ordered women to cover the entire bodies. whilst in public, the decree came from the taliban. supreme leader talib needed to crack down on women's rights and taking power last year, despite promising to respect freedoms and rank, as president has drawn criticism at home and abroad, often declaring a state of emergency for the 2nd time in 5 weeks. president going to buy a raja packs, has been facing nationwide calls for his resignation because of an economic crisis . decree gives the president sweeping powers of state. now with all the headlines, more news on al jazeera of the inside story. ah,
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the sobering measure of the truth, tall of the code, 19 pandemic. the world health organization says that nearly 15000000 people died in the 1st 2 years, but more than double of countries were reporting. so what lessons should be learned? this is inside story. ah, ah, ah hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. it is the most defining health crisis of our times, no matter where we are in the world. the corona virus pandemic has changed the way we live. and now for the 1st time, we know more people died because of it,
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than governments were reporting on thursday, the world health organization revealed its 1st most comprehensive estimate. it said that 14900000 people died in the 1st 24 months of the pandemic. that's mostly as a direct result of the virus itself. and because people couldn't get proper treatment, since hospitals were overwhelmed, the w h o says that it's a wake up call for all countries to invest in data and their health care systems to make them resilient to crises. naida is indeed the life blood of public health cove. it has illuminated, a staggering, told already that we have seen 14900000 excess deaths, but it has also illuminated as staggering data. gaps in countries, too much is unknown and there is too much delays in getting life and death information. so let's take a closer look at that world health organization data. the line in orange here is
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the number of excess deaths between january 2020 and december 2021. the w h o defines excess deaths as the difference between actual number of deaths and deaths that were expected based on data from previous years. if there had been no pandemic on the graph, below is the official number of cove at 19 deaths during that time. 80 percent of those excess turfs, we're in 20 countries, including india, brazil, iran, the philippines, south africa, the u. k. and the u. s. and when we look at gender, more men died than women. ah, so to discuss all of this, joining us our guests for to day from barf in the u. k. dr. but i've been carrier a senior clinical lecturer at the university of exeter medical school from rabbits as it in abraham, a professor of medical biotechnology at the report medical school and director of
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med biotech. and in ponder cherry india, t under arman, a health systems expert, former professor and head of the school of health systems studies at the tougher institute of social sciences in one by a warm welcome to you all dr. bank county. let's start with you 1st. what do you make of these world health organization figures? are you at all surprised? no, i'm not surprised at all. and i would go further and to say in, in some countries, this is most probably also a under estimate. because lot all countries have robust monitoring systems for illness, mobility, mortality that's, that's a differentiation. and one more thing that we are not including in this figures is our debts brought forward as a result of body damage following a co it infection. what i'm referring to is the consequences of long coded. so it
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is disappointing. it is worrying, and it is a, it is, in my opinion, a underestimate of the actual number of deaths for the figure. it pales or the comparison boat compared to the spanish flu outbreak of 1918 doesn't it? indeed, but what we don't know is how long this coed pandemic is going to continue. whereas the spanish pond that make spanish flu pandemic was for defined shorter period. so we're not out of the woods with cove it. and furthermore, that was more than a 100 years ago when facilities medical facilities, vaccines, and try to predicts, did not exist. so on that front, of course, science has prevailed and done a fantastic job with bringing the vaccines out and saving a lot of lives. having said that, it is upsetting and disappointing that many people,
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especially in low income countries, in india, pakistan, bangladesh, africa, indonesia. they suffered, and many of them died. professor, ever he, me a dr. franco? he had touched upon it. there. perhaps you can give us a more for some explanation, why were original copy with figures so off the mark, why is it so difficult to get accurate? death figures? well, i think it's a, it's a good question, adrian, but i think it coming back to africa. i think it's very the monitoring system and the reporting system is really not that efficient. so when we look at south africa and we are talking about 1300000000 person we are seeing, that's almost 3 or 4 country. it has a really good report. and just to give you an idea to bother. so to show the difference, when you come back to country is not an african countries. when you're compound maroka, andrea with the same number of the population, you get like a double, actually death in rural co that in algeria. worse than that,
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when you come back to new zia, to egypt, egypt with 10 times more the size of the population more than trees. yeah. you have 28000 that think she and you have around 24, thousands that asia. i think the reporting system is not there and actually some countries, something we have to say frankly, or rather to give the right numbers they prefer to put the numbers and that the rug and say that is no coffee. but they think when you look at the numbers of the w show, i think it's are quite to laura sing, because if you take just the part of the war, india, china, and africa, we're talking about the huff size of the population of the word and the numbers are not that i think, and they think it's a really, to question this number. why for a simple reason, because we'll be confronting more and more, maybe pandemic coming sooner and dog. i think we are not out of the quote and answer and responding to the coping needs. city of things need to be lot of
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transparency and anticipation and the participants approach for talking about the person to person, actually a noticing or given notice that they are infected or did a death in their place. and the other think the medical corpse actually should be involved in that reporting. all right, let's go to point to cherry than a profess, again dr. pink collier touched upon it in his his 1st answer. the figures tell us nothing about those who are still suffering due to the virus with long cove it and may succumb to their symptoms at some point in the future or, or about the number of people who are going to die due to long term health complications. long after the original infection? yes. so, yes, the last battle reasons why this figure would be an interesting. but one
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must, you know, in the home, it was all in the letter. it will be over the desk. and the student is ladia. best meant that without a baby it wasn't as important as an organ thinking. now what via mission is it says the home was and then you see there is no longer the wound video long live with or would it be absolutely sure is the the it includes oh or like it is. and then what i think it all doing best reenacted invalid. what was the need?
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so here in the long it use other huge you do your business menda. we know this from journalist that works, people they will not be, you know, very slow a. so this one is messing with that one is another one. it's not, it's only the lighter. i know i did assume it because i know that there's been a lot of controversy there in india because of these things, world whole health organization because we'll come to that control the see it in just a moment. but 1st of all, a dr. pin korea, the pandemic, of course, is still with us. people are still dying due to the disease and yet in some parts of the world, life appears to be very much back to normal. i mean, we,
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we can't continue with a permanent sense of, of crisis hanging over it. us, is it wrong to go back to normal behaviors when, when people are still falling sick? this is a lovely issue that we must address. so before i going to answer your question, i just wanted to say something about the comment made by a colleague from ponder cherry in india, which is the measuring of excess. that if we look at the w h o report, it also articulates that these excess that well most probably covered related and whilst excess, that's our old, that's the point is the key point is these are excess deaths. and those excess that most probably are covered related. now, coming on to you with respect to our, what do we do or do we remain in restrictions or do we draw our god? my answer is as follows. vaccines have been proven to work very well. so the
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combination of vaccines plus 10 repute ticks deployed sensitively and equitably across the world will take us into a better place. so if you recall backwards, initially, the vaccines were produced and only the richer nations got them and the rest of the world got nothing. now, in a fortunate position that we are, we've got enough vaccines for the west to continue with its booster programs and for other low income nations to also give good immunizations. so what we need to do is continue it, immunization, continue it delivering therapy, it takes as well, anti virals. and that way economically, we can also function rather than being in a permanent state of lockdown. and then the other thing we have to do is watchfulness. we just don't know where this is going, it looks like it is better in europe at the moment,
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but then it is our summer period. so what we need to do is continuously monitor continuously watch and look out for variance. and one way to stop reading from arising is immunize the low income countries which have yet to be immunized. and that way we will all be in a better place. professor abraham. it what lessons must government learn from the crisis and these figures? i think that's the big problem actually, because if we don't get the right members, it will be really very difficult to prepare the reps response on which listened to take from the pandemic. actually, even the vaccines and my colleague was talking about the vaccines now in africa, for example, we are not having problems with the having to vaccines in this country. if we can, most people are not vaccinating themselves. so i think it's a really big issue here. how will get to, to, to, to get people to be aware that the vaccination is the only issue coming back to a question the lesson, i think the 1st thing that we have to do and people are,
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we were talking about the end direct death. people that weren't maternity directly to the coffee, but who lost lots of people with cancer, with diabetes, with other diseases conical diseases because we didn't give them enough care or the good care of during the pandemic. so i think the health system should be really more defined and we have to put in place a new health system that can manage actually to confront and respond to the pandemic. but on the other hand, without losing sight, the other people have incorrect disease. and doing that, we can do with b by 2 things. expand and the walls of this hospital without really expanding them physically. it just been able to do with and mobilizing the competencies on mobilizing the, the, the health care people when we need them and have them to qualification. and the training to do that. i think to do that. it's really something that we have to think about right now. not as a strategy. i was a vision, as actually as procedures and the plans. and that the only way that we can confront
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beside transparencies. and here i have to say something because i think africa give a really good example because i remember south africa by it's unseen by the army current actually. and talking about this soon enough. and given the earth to the whole word, actually it was a really good things, why the numbers matters. why with the transparency matters. so the professor, as we said a few moments ago, and as we heard in the discussion, india's government objected to the world health organization and death figure saying that it had conveniently chosen to ignore the data that the indian government had submitted. our congress has demanded that across party commission be formed to ascertain the actual number of deaths in india. why are the w h o estimate so controversial there in india in particular, why one of these is a strong when you get
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out of that one a, that is obviously what the whole issue is on. so a was a decision is not complete and it's out of the was the problematic, i mean, and even, but the decision, bauman b a, b a r b. so i think unless you have a family who suddenly expect that a very find a bagley
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b a r and well vision that it is not being b, y, or a to b level issue a even otherwise a major issue on that. some of the issues with also being who they are the best possible under the circumstances. i i think this a really, really, i think the dentist is dr. thank county then. so if india's unhappy at these figures, which it argues have been arrived at through modeling and assumptions rather than
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the figures actually provided by the government, could other countries take issue with the world health organizations methodology? this is coming back to something you were saying earlier on about the the, the actual figure of deaths is probably much higher. but how wide of the mark could the world health organization be given its methodology, which are a big country like india has taken issue with. it's always very difficult for w h o because it has to trend so carefully with its members. and we know that plato has to keep old apartments happy on the government like india, china, pakistan, bangladesh, are all embarrassed. john, india has been an independent country for over 70 years. but if you look at its investment in its public health infrastructure, it is embarrassing. it is really embarrassing for an upcoming nation. and of course, therefore, the current politicians will want to down play that tragedy of co id,
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as well as the tragedy of all those other illnesses that the for citizens of india suffer. so going forward, i wish i knew what the answer was about, how we can make the w h o stronger, more independent, and less, less subject to influenced by member states. we know, for example, when saws in 2003 broke, they had to work very slowly and carefully with china. and then in 2019, when kobinie rose, similarly that the work where he gingerly and, and smart footed, lead politically diplomatically and so these are the difficulties that i feel very sorry for that doubly 8 your has to navigate dr. back. i just wanna get your opinion here. a controversial question perhaps, to these figures show that despite much criticism from those whose lives continue to be disrupted, the, the china is perhaps rise in it's, it is pursuit of,
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of 0 cove. it. well, china's done well if you look at the figures, because the with, with his 0 covet policy, fewer chinese people officially have dine. my issue is, listen, china, you could make it better for your citizens, because now we've got the vaccines. so why don't you use the pfizer, madonna, astrazeneca brands, for example, which have proven greater efficacy. and the idea is, we don't want you to die. so immunize, immunized those one rouble groups have the antivirus at the ready if needed. and then you can also open up rather than incarcerate large numbers of your population . so in answer to your question, do i think china is doing the right thing right now? i think it is a bit too draconian. only china can do what china does, right? i would be more relaxed about how i would do it, which is immunize, and be a little bit more relax, professor abraham,
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me. what it means to make of the fact that according to the world health organization figures, 53 percent of the deaths occurred in lower to middle income countries, while just 15 percent occurred in high income countries on it, on only 4 percent in low income countries. why fi, it's a, it's amazing that we have having this numbers actually that's coming back to it. so africa that i know of the most, i think there is some parameters that heads actually the, the african population to survive. the covert, mostly because it's a young population with a strong amenity and i think that's why we have this numbers in africa. beside that, i think the reporting system in africa is not working. that much. it's why we don't know the exact number actually offer people die in, or people being affected in africa. the other think. i think that what's happening
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that the richest country, i think mostly because they they, they have a re boss reporting system and they were reporting or the death because the other think when you have the middle income, the problems that i think when it was really massive by in and massive deaths number did, we couldn't catch up with the numbers and i think why we are, i'm not reporting that. and actually without talking about the members of the w, h o, with their problems, actually w a sure has lots of issues with their, with the, the parties would the countries and the governments looking at the numbers given by couple of studies. we have a last that paper that just came out from, from kennedy and study. we have the washington institute, i think we are off at least between $4.00 to $6000000.00 deaths and they think that's a really we have to come for that. if we want to prepare a nicely, any kind of pandemic, that will be coming. and i think, and we have to say that will not go for a 100 years before seen
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a pandemic. i think it will become so right, unfortunately, unfortunately, yes. so the want to these figures then tell us a barrier might what we just heard about how we should be pet, be preparing for and tackling any future pandemic in terms of health systems and, and data gathering. i think 83 must be no guarantee a set of standards regarding i actually be seen and event the gap, the financial that needs to be close. but you must meet with rich and be able to be sure that each country is required a because if you are a u r
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a and you need to make sure that the supply chains and the all manufacturing processes and the law with manufactured in char, i these instructors a the what a, what would be less? i think it benz of brooklyn. monthly district level all what, what, what is the external? yeah. it should be a minimum standard that needs to be is empty. i agree. yeah. go, well, we had that. we don't know what it meant to build a diffusions the got it b,
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it will ensure that that means that isn't it. so easy, we're definitely done. and there's that we get what this gentleman, it has been fascinating or thank you for giving us your time today. for being with us on the inside story about a ton cardia. as in abraham, me and t. shonda roman. thank you too for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time. by going to our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion on this topic, go to our facebook page. that's at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. and you can join the conversation on twitter handle at ha, inside story from me, adrian finnegan and whole team here. and thanks for watching. see, again ah
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