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tv   The Stream  Al Jazeera  August 23, 2022 10:30pm-11:01pm AST

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not uncommon, rescuers are continuing to extract water from the flooded mine using more than a dozen pumps. like this one, working 24 hours a day, authority say that bringing the water level down is the only way they'll be able to reach the 10 men trapped more than 60 meters underground. families, the tramped miners see what they want most is for the men to be returned to the surface. but many here also worn that without improving working conditions for coal miners, it's only a matter of time before an accident like this one happens again. when we'll wrap a little al jazeera we, la mexico, remember, you can find much more all of our stories, including concerns about security in ukraine, around independence day celebrations out to sierra dot com. ah. reminder of the top stories on al jazeera, ukraine's president, as warned,
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his forces will retaliate. it russia carries out any attacks to coincide with the cranes independent stain flow. to me, as a lensky says, russia could intensify, strikes on civilian infrastructure, and government facilities. here has already been public events to commemorate 31 years since ukraine's independence from the soviet union. i mean, if he is the capital will be targeted wednesday also mark 6 months since president vladimir putin ordered tens of thousands of troops into ukraine for what he calls a special military operation. equally now his name, which is ye will never recognize someone's callers or, nor land, and e, our skies were always ready to defend or blue and yellow flag. i asked now to commemorate heroes who give their lives for those scholars. the united nations security council is meeting to discuss fighting near the upper region nuclear plant . kristen salumi has more well, the united nations officials say this is all the more reason to let an independent team of investigators from the international atomic agents energy agency into the
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country to investigate exactly what is happening and the extent of what damage if any, a has happened to the plant, the largest one in europe, both russia and ukraine say that they want the inspectors to come in. but there's been an inability to agree on a time and a place and a route for the inspectors to get into the plant itself. former malaysian prime minister, nat geo browser, is heading to prison laughter. the nation's top court upheld his guilty verdict, and 12 year jail sentence. that jeep was convicted of money laundering and corruption in 2024 and a half $1000000000.00 was stolen from the state investment fund known as one m d b, which he co founded. the court also denied, not jeeps request to delay. his sentence is continued to deny any wrong doing us official say iran has dropped several key demand as part of its negotiations to
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revive the 2015 euclid deal. that's according to u. s. media. the united states is expected to respond within days to a final tax table by the european union earlier this month, but to ron has denied backing down from any of its conditions. okay, those are the top stories stay with us. the stream is coming up next year without a 0. ah ah hi, anthony ok to dale, the stream, taiwan from the inside,
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looking out. what does the future hold for its people? time has been very open about wanting to take over taiwan, while its allies continue to show their support, but tip toe around recognizing taiwan as a country. have questions. of course you do during the discussion, live on youtube to talk to our panel of taiwanese guests. ah, so let's start with a look at how the contentious relationship between taiwan and china began after the chinese nationalist last china's civil war. in 1949, the nationalist k m. t party fled to taiwan where they imposed martial law for 38 years. master law was lifted in 1987 and then the islands, 1st direct democratic presidential elections were held in 1996. in 2016 taiwan elected. its 1st female president. sy,
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ink. when johnny asked to talk about what's next with taiwan bryant, you ready? lame, a waiting yet. so good to have you. thank you for joining us, brian. please tell our audience what you day. i my name is brian hugh. i'm a journalist and i'm with the founding editors of. ready the magazine, which covers social issues in taiwan and politics were found in 2014 offer these informed. so good to have you. freddy, want to people know you as and for doing. i am for the lame a member of town is parliament and knows. oh, a heavy metal sinner. nice to have your weights hang so lovely to have you. thank you for joining us. the tele audience. what your name for what you day. hello everyone. my name is waiting again. i am currently an assistant professor at the government department of franklin marshall college in pennsylvania, united states, and i study asian politic get heavy. i am wondering guess when a well known personality you oh, a leader of a country visits taiwan. how much trouble does that cause, bryan?
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so trend this reaction that i was quite strong. there happened diplomatic visits in the past by other leaders, the government officials, et cetera. but this time china really use this as a pretext to escalate pirates due to close. he being so highly ranked that she is in my infrastructure to the presence the after the vice president. but i think in this case, china was looking for some way to ramp up the entrance into the battery to visit. so oh, waiting. you were in taiwan when nancy pelosi, the u. s. speaker of the house, who visited taiwan. there was so much lead up to that. but from the inside, what was the experience like i have to say it was like you live in the parallel world like so. i think the week leading up to pillows is that i think the policy circle in the and the see was old fighting over whether it's the force of strict crisis where s and i one, i think people having be living under the threat of china live kind of assets
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and live their life very normal and i so i was very surprised to learn how much tension it has the rigor between the us in china over the polosa. right. so level of tension outside of the country on a scale of $1.00 to $10.00 was what would you say waiting for nancy pelosi visit? what would you say with a 10 outside my time? either on my twitter birth i would say 8 to 10. all right. but as high one, it was probably one. no, and that is extraordinary. all right, freddy, you've got to come in here. i'm looking at your twitter feed. people love to come visit you. not just taiwan, but also come visit. you'd say this is representative jennifer wex than she popped in to see you in june. and then we have and it's freedom huge thanks to a bust of taiwan and members of the taiwanese polymer for having me. we had some delicious chinese food, etc, etc. so you are no stranger to hosting guessed to tie one. what does that mean?
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is it performative? is it symbolic? how does it help? i think because i think how many people can feel that no matter is in terms of epidemic prevention or regional security or the value of democracy and human rights . i think people in taiwan feel we play a very important role or more and more important role in, in this region these in the pacific region. so therefore, exchanges between democratic countries are activist or democratic police. politicians and taiwan should be normal and positive. should be encouraged, so because there is no way that we play more and more important role. but if the people outside of taiwan one could get engaged, we need to be approved by china. that's it makes no sense and it's not right. so i think lindsey pelosi, she got a huge, well come in taiwan because at, for time,
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one is we, we want to country be, can contribute more and we want to play more important role in the region. we can take this responsibility but also the world need to support us because when we play more important role. busy we've got even heavier threats from china, so we need to speak together in the democratic world waiting. i see you nodding and brian, i see you nodding as well. so you welcome visitors, but that there's an impact. i'm just looking here on twitter, the ministry of defense, r o c, just keeping track of the number of incursions in taiwan territory from china. and these go on, sporadically from day to day to day of visit, was these incursions from china waiting so i agree with what brian threat it said. so think the passage was having trouble
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act like in 2018. we have seeing, you know, several, many delegations coming to visit and ready for the mission. we asked how a nice, well welcome to make friends with all other nations and engage with each other, you know, through more cooperation and collaboration. and so i think rise current in pointing out that i think china, i use this as an excuse as a pretext to try to change the status call. 7 by, you know, starting or engaging with more military drills. yeah. and that is, and i don't think how many people will be deter by this because we can not just not making friends because the bully said you shouldn't make friends. and we don't make friends that the that doesn't work well. yeah, yeah, i want to 1st friday, the 2nd. yeah. i mean, i think, for example, just the fact that there's all this fear about the drills or effect through the
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large gap between perceptions in taiwan and outside of it. i mean, people in taiwan would be a 1st in line of fire, but on the convers to what much of the reaction international law was, people logged in, how well, i mean, there was support people gather the airport to welcome close the, the hotel that she was staying and so forth, and as you know, the world was going on about how this is pedro mania, how this will lead to a military threat with an actually that's in the face of these trends. it's tony people, but somehow their perspectives were left out of the conversation. a conversation with had about the risks, but who are at risk is actually that, how many people? and i think that the, the reactions as visits are very different than between how many people and what much international discourse was about. guess afraid i often hear a so if you go 1st, i guess ask if i, if i, i think the. busy busy speaker, and then some i thought does some international media or some people said nancy pelosi world, the chinese military exercises, or the taiwanese,
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we broad we, we brought us to these crises or these, these threats from china. we brought to face these kind of threats. i want to emphasize that actually actually we have been facing these for decades. china is very to pin do in these always like that. not just because of nancy pelosi visiting or because of what we have been doing. so we have 2 people have to understand that we have been facing these for decades. china always want to find excuses to, to, to bring higher threats on these region. not as much as threatening in taiwan, but also all the countries in this region that's, that's the, the live, the normal life we are dealing here in this region. you know, get the phrase i often hear from within. i want to a status quad,
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preserving the status quo waiting. can you explain to our audience what status quo the taiwan means? so i think we can discussion, discuss the question from true perspective. one is the tiny side entity and the 2nd one is how in relation with china? so i was like density. i think the majority of tiny people now identify themselves . you know, nice. but when it comes to deciding what the relationship with china should be here, there are some debate going on when some people think that how and it's already a defective sovereignty country. why as others, there are other people in taiwan think that we should also pursue your independence. but despite that differences, i think the majority of people are pragmatic and do accept the status quo, which is that high one is that this back, those sovereignty state. and that's kind of what the status call is. however,
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the tricky part is that the status quo is self is changing as well, and how long it can remain and how it changes actually depends. china, the level of aggression, the l. it in the future. basically the more aggression imposed by one of the state, it's called change more towards independence. let me just bring in just a quick thought here from preston. sy, when, because she mentioned status quo. so i'm going to play that and then brian, can you just pick up from the thought that she's playing out here? it's have a listen. this is from earlier this month. oh man, we are in close cooperation with international allies to monitor the military situation. at the same time, we're doing everything we can to let the world know that taiwan is determined to safeguard stability and the status quo across the taiwan strait ocean crescent sighing. when using that phrase, status quo again, brian. yeah,
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absolutely. and i think the debates high is very emphatic on this point, that she's not the one that seeking to change the state of, of crossfit relations tie as berkeley intent on avoiding being labeled as provocateur in the relation with china. and china. in the meantime, tries of frames i want as a troublemaker, but this is a form of victim flaming. the threats are off for all coming from tribal biography . what also one sees with some of the off example differences between that discourse in taiwan and outside of it i alluded to earlier, is this victim blaming this view of taiwan as having brought this on itself risking the region or to maintain itself a one does also see this argument that one sees circulated now in international discourse, that challenger does give up its freedom, some is the way it reserve peace. and unfortunately, i don't think that's the case, but this gets brought up with regard suppose even than powers disgusting. this very hyperbolic tone. as though it's the end of the world that we're on the verge of war . but as i mentioned we're, we're in taiwan. people him relatively chill about it and, and that's how things were let me bring in a newsletter. this is alyssa from the chan friday. i'm going to play this for you because what for mean, jan told us earlier was about appreciating allies,
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but the allies need to step up. they can't just be allies from a distance. because if the status quo is changing, and you need your allies to call on what might happen, this is what he told us area. the political economy systems in taiwan over a differ from china. it is a consensus in taiwan that people want to preserve the ways of life's democracy, freedom in the events economy. however, china's annexation is looming because it is a sacred mission for them to unified ty, while therefore taiwan scour man is trying to strengthen the self defense capability for the us is very important because research shows that the height of, of it reassure people from partner countries it is also very important for the u as in ice to provide more economic and military resources to deter china from changing
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the status quo of freight. i'm a little bit cynical about these visitors coming to taiwan here, calling themselves that you are allies. but if china does more than just fly over the taiwanese strike, what will your allies be dealing? i think 1st of all, i think for now i think the allies should show their attitude that they are, they are very supportive of taiwan. they state which i think that's very important, especially after the rush out invasion to ukraine, that we can send the wrong message to china. we need to lead china. know that if anything happened here, the allies, well, well, stand with taiwan. that's meant we see the international community has remained strategic and big o t for the situation in this region. and that my stand the wrong message to china
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. so it's very important to give china a more clear image mall. clear message that the allies are stand with high want. and by sending the high ranking officials to taiwan to get engaged with high one on the table, to blame our friendship on the table to show taiwan to show, to china. that to know that there are friends of taiwan everywhere and friends they would tie one that's very important. and i do believe that after the russian in, after the russia invasion to you train taiwan is people know that if we stand for a longer time, if we can fight as if we can protect our land as much as we can do in china. evade high one, then i think the allies and our friends, well, we're supporters more will take to with us. i think that's
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a very strong message far as i am wondering what it feels like trying to live in a nation where huge powers on one side of the land take and then huge, a huge power as your neighbor talk about taiwan as if it's a porn in a game of chess, what does that feel like? so that is something that i find very concerning because that was also, i think, in regards to plus he visit how much it was discussed. again, as i mentioned, there is not the focus on what tony's thought about their own future. there's a lot of talk about in terms of the u. s. and china and so forth. and so i think that does raise one of the questions. i mean, the visit to was welcomed and i won. and i think many international did not get that because of the fact that this is seen as a show of support. and taiwan is really wanting to support from the national community right now. other than the rest, the world is afraid thinks it advisable, and there are some questions i think, to be raised about where the substantive gains from this symbolic or mostly just
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for show or if is actually thing taiwan gains from this kind of visit though it puts i one line of fire up and not respect. i think that this is long term in the face of taiwan and i, i would hope to see that change about the way i wanted discuss that is more attention to the way tony is want their future to be ah, me oftentimes, and you just have this notion, that's how i should give up their freedoms to preserve peace, or that they should stop being baking noises about the soft termination and that kind of thing. and the china will go away. but i think also what's important to notice is that china's live fire drills also off example targeted map that there is missiles that end up in japan's exclusive economic zone. others also chinese, the lock to be directed at south korea, the up on the yellow sea and the boise. and so i think this points to china's rather expensive aimed at regression towards not was taiwan. that if taiwan is cedar over in some form, they would just be taiwan. i mean, tara china would still continue to be aggressive in the area. and i think that's, that's very key to keep in mind. i'm just looking here on my laptop and it says a piece that you wrote brian for the guardian. it says,
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don't believe china's convenient historical tales. taiwan belongs to the taiwanese earlier this month on biology was show the bottom line. the u. s. ambassador to china had this to say about the history of china and taiwan. and the relationship between taiwan and china haven't listened to this. the question of taiwan fundamentally speaking is not about to democracy or freedom is about china's national sovereignty. and a territory integrity is about the national dignity of chinese people. the historical fact is that china has been pop. taiwan has been part of china since ancient times. people need to understand history and need to know the international law. ryan,
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how do you argue with a country that says it's a historical fact that your nation is part of our nation? well, i think it's advantage history because the fact is the p r. c has never controlled taiwan. and china often claimed the claims about ancient history, but i don't know why we're then evaluate in validating the current claims latanya people to soft termination based on age and history. the purity has never controlled taiwan. it is one of the force of them over through imperial china and that it is founding these claims to taiwan based of imperial trans history. but if you look at it, i would only became a province in $887.00 and then a mirror, a year later, it was seated to the japanese. and so that's already the last imperial dynasty. it's not the case, that's how i was part of try and often time immortal. but then china will deploy these nationalists abstractions about long term or ancient history to claim that i want it just as low as part of china. i think that 1st ab claims shouldn't matter. in the face of contemporary chinese, people think what their future should be,
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do they, i did fire chinese or not, and i think the answer is probably not. and then also in the history is also just not incorrect. is this incorrect? it's not true. and china continues to try to claim though, just in terms of conversations with other place in the world. right. i think, i think, although the history that the, the sort of the chinese ambassador understands, i don't, i don't think it's right, but it's very important that that's the reason why the people in this region, not just in taiwan, but in this region field. china is so dangerous, is a bad neighbor because we've that kind of ideology. china can also claim dot korea is a part of china. mongolia is a part of china. again, i'm is a part of china, all of these region that have been invaded by china in that, in their 1000 p 3. are they on their legal territory in that kind of, by the allergies. they are so dangerous in this region that's,
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that's the reason why we always emphasize that. we always tell the world that if we lose taiwan, then they will have a next. taiwan will not be the last one to, to be sacrificed to, to lose. but they are always to be the next one, because with that kind of chinese ideology, they play a very dangerous role in these region. and all always the threats to the neighbors can i hear you know, way to go ahead and more. so the beginning, the, the chinese and better to say it's not about democracy and not democracy. i think it absolutely has a lot to do with preserving democracy. i know it sounds like just the value thing that has only have symbolic meaning. but as a matter of fact, china is right now, one of the largest authoritarian country in the world. and in the past decade they have been trying to ask for their authoritarianism through their building role
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initiative and with the rise of populism and the erosion of democracy. everywhere in the world, i think preserving democracy, what if it preserving time preserving mockers? it special for them be very strong. you know, not only for talented people but all or basically people, me in democracy around the, around the globe. and as a matter of fact, one is the, the chinese, you can democracy right now in the world. i think it, the ambassador think that's not the point or the matter. i think it's because he doesn't believe democracy in the functional is a couple waiting in the try to speak. we're waiting. we, we, we have a split in our youtube audience who are watching right now. so diane, me, brooke says taiwan, 1st of all is not a country. that is a fact. so bryan and waiting, and freddy, you, you push back on that. marie says taiwan has
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a right to be free. they were annex during the king, dine, it didn't queen dynasty the skis, make the ching dynasty, but it was never colonized like japan. there was a debate that goes back and forth. i am wondering just from the psyche of people who live in taiwan waiting. you did have a wonderful example of that. when i said the level of anxiety outside of taiwan was 8. but inside of taiwan was one. what about the level of threat that you feel from your neighbor? where is that on that scale of one to 10? the idea that china is saying actually, taiwan belongs to us at some point. we want to take it. what's the level of anxiety there? are. so i think how and no matter how people cold weather time is the country or not. it is the it is a, it's a society that demographically elect. it's
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a. 7 top decision maker for the past more than 20 years. and it has the democratic government. people have all the democratic rights. so regardless how other people calls, i want, it is a function mean our sovereignty states. and so on that level, i don't think i, i don't think the anxiety level is that high for people when i was. so give us a number cuz it's always illuminating on a number, a scale of one to 10. and i made so that china will actually one day take taiwan. doesn't want all the anxiety level there are me personally is rowing. okay. rob? probably $5.00 to $75.00 to $7.00. i'm just okay, sure. just check me friday cuz when the last 30 seconds would show your anxiety level that china will one day take taiwan. what john? diety level freddy, $1.00 to $10.00. yeah, i think about 7. okay. and brian, well,
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i think about the same, how much a breach of out though, it's not immediate disrupt her. i submitted that seemed that way. all right, sounds fascinating. i. i love that you helped us understand taiwan from the inside looking out. so outside this hyperbole inside there's relatively com 5 to 7 amount of com. all right, thank you so much for being with us, brian and freddy and waiting out for your comments and questions you're debating on youtube. appreciate that. i will see you next time on the st. likes watching. take care. ah ah.
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ah. ah. safe then he'd been home and then he international anti corruption excellence award
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boat. now for your hero. 5 years ago, me and mas armed forces commenced a scorched earth campaign against the ro hinge minority, leaving a trail of death and destruction. hundreds of thousands were forced into exile in neighboring bangladesh. in a special report, we look at the plight of the rocking gun today on out to 0. in south korea, a new generation is titans state shaking up social media fashion in, in crime. one, 0, an 8th made the world's polls influence on out there. ah. i'm the parker in london, the tops toys on our.

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