tv Inside Story Al Jazeera November 19, 2022 2:30pm-3:01pm AST
horse in the world solely by climate change, but a lot of people disagree with that. they say it's down to poor governance and to poverty. the truth, i think it's a combination of all 3 climate change that's really hybrid around the world quality devastation here in madagascar. poverty, 90 percent of my da, gaskins live in poverty and poor governance inside and outside the country. for the people, though, it's all irrelevant for them these times, simply known as catering to the home that clark al jazeera iraq. tinney maids had been killed in a riot at a prison in acquittals capital. the violence broke out after the government decided to relocate 3 crime bosses to a high security facility. 8 rights have taken place in prisons in ecuador since february 2021. and about 400 inmates have been killed. north korean leader kim jong or now has revealed his daughter to the world. her existence had never been
publicly confirmed before these images emerged. the photo show the 2 hand in hand inspecting anc, ballistic miss arm. north korea testified a one song, 17 intercontinental ballistic missile on friday. ah, you're watching out his ear. these are the headlines this. our favorite chief gianni infant tino is accusing western critics of hypocrisy when it comes to katara . the 2022 for, for world cup kicks off on sunday. i mean ventana has defended the treatment of migrant workers ahead of the tournament. he says europe should not be giving what he calls moral lessons. but this moral lesson, giving one side it it's just hypocrisy. polls have closed in what is
a crucial election for malaysia, 3 main alliances, a baffling power. the election is expected to be the tightest since independence. more than 60 years ago. for us president donald trump had peter out of the appointment of a special counsel to oversee the justice department's investigations. jack smith were laid probes into trump handling of classified documents, an alleged election interference. the 1st trying to newly liberated hassan has arrived from ukraine's capital case. the link between the 2 cities has been restored, after russian troops withdrew earlier this month, most of your crimes trains have continued to operate though during the war, despite repeated attacks. and the countries president says 17 regions without power, as russia continues to target energy infrastructure. keith, odessa, in its year and 10 uphill the worst his name of president of a lot of ms. lewinsky says there's been heavy fighting in the east and dumbass region. the un has worn to the power and water shortages could cause
a humanitarian emergency. and most of the ladies at the apex summit have condemned the war in ukraine. in their final declaration, they acknowledged different views on the war and noted that the conflict is causing high inflation supply chain trouble, and financial risks. both russia and china, r. i pick members, alright, those are the headlines. i'm emily angland states you now for inside story. ah, guilty of murder. 2 russians and a ukrainian are convicted for their role in the downing of malaysia airlines fight m, age 17 over eastern ukraine in 2014 has justice been served and could the case set
a precedent for legal action over russia's invasion of ukraine? this is inside saw ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm fully back table. it's been 8 years since 290 people died when malaysia airlines fight mh 17 was shot down over east and ukraine . a caught in the netherlands as now convicted. 3 men of murder in absentia is sentenced to russian intelligence officers and a ukrainian separatist leader to life in prison and ordered them to pay $16000000.00 in compensation. judges found the miss on that shot down the jet was russian made came from russia and was launched by russian controlled rebels. but none of the men appeared in court and it's unclear whether they'll ever serve their
sentences. a 4th russian was acquitted because of a lack of evidence. the dutch government has summoned the russian ambassador in the netherlands after moscow said the verdict, quote, neglected impartiality. al jazeera is fet bass and reports from outside. the court in shipple good was who to see how i could see you. they travelled from all over the world to find answers, a g as after the life of their loved ones and a property in the sky over ukraine. more than 10 different nationalities were on board malaysian airlines flight and made 17196 of the 290. 8 victims were dutch. the plane departed from sipple to kuala lumpur when it was down over a war zone in eastern ukraine. the bodies of those on board and they brief from the plane, fell in a field near the village of cub bowwie. the court ruled that there was no doubt that the plain was shut down with an anti aircraft book missile brought in from russia and fired from a field controlled by pro russian separatist to form
a russian intelligence officers. and one ukrainian separatist commander are held responsible for transporting the missile. and when calling to see it, the buffet's butler, the fate, the court considered proven that the suspects conduct bye to purposefully and illegally bring down a plane, knowing to cause a mortal danger. anton caught last his eldest son, daughter in law and 6 year old grandson. i am traveling to bali for vacation because backpack was all that came home intact. for us is very important to show the world to show that russians she was, you have done if you're taking the life of a 6 year old child and know we are atheist soda or and all that her as myself. hey miss. all this is in the past 2 and a half years quarter attended more than 65 court hearings, fulfilling
a promise he made to his dad son, to find the truth, said judge thrust. how immense the suffering of the relative here has been for the past 8 years, with the bodies of their loved ones scattered in a field and is a new cream some for weeks. but even though those convicted have not attended the trial, they feel that justice has been done. there was water in my eyes with emma rose is and believe will. la expert said the verdict was groundbreaking. because for the 1st time, a court ruled that russia controlled armed and finance the separatists rebels of the don, yet people's republic and eastern ukraine. russia has always denied any involvement to russian foreign ministry has called the verdict scandalous, saying that throughout the trial, the court was under unprecedented pressure to impose to politically motivated outcome. prosecutors and a 3 convicted men have 2 weeks to decide to appeal. the verdict steadfast and
else's era. schiphol is now bringing our guests for today's inside story. in harrison in the netherlands, thomas shannon thomas lost his son quinn in the mh 17 attack in amsterdam. marie cur, the horn assistant professor of international criminal law at the university of amsterdam and in oxford, samuel romani, and associate fellow at the royal united services institute. welcome to your thank you very much for joining us on inside. sorry, thomas. let me start with you. if i can, your son quin died in the mh 17 disaster. i know this has been a very difficult time for your family. tell us 1st about how you felt when that verdict was read out in court. do you feel just this has been done? does this bring you any closure i have difficulties in talking about and the closure. this will never be close. but the truth is that
yesterday was important to all of us was important to me. to finally hear a judge, an independent church, well respected internationally, that would say what happened, who is responsible and who should be convicted. so yes, it was a great day to finally hear what we know already in the past years. since we have received that information from different press channels already, you followed the, the tile, thomas from the very beginning. what was it like for your, for your family and the, the other victim sammy's who were there with you. i did go twice to the board. i live in new york for 5 years. i wasn't able to when i was in the mountains i yeah, i did attend or i tried to attend the hearings on
a live stream. the most difficult part was when the next of kin were allowed to tell their story in front of the board and to tell what happened to them, how they were spending their lives in being losing jobs. it was rather really painful people that you have come to over the past a year since she did, you met them in different settings presentations, so they call you or your family, your friends friends that you never wanted to have by the way we know them therefore it was a great gathering yesterday as well. but these past 2 years were difficult. it was difficult to hear the defense, the lions. again, it was difficult to read all the time. those lies from the russian government. and
this decision yesterday hopefully will bring all these lies that were in the air all the time. that was the most painful for me. marie, could hon in amsterdam, you also followed this trial from the very beginning this case. and you were in court when the verdict was read, what was your initial reaction and do you feel that justice has been served? well, it was a very long complex case and also leading to a complex outcome. i think they made a really great judgment. and on the question of where the justice is done, justice is so complex. so if you think just as only in terms of some sort of a perfect justice when there's only justice, if the suspects are now perpetrators are in prison, then there won't be justice. but what i think the next of kin also show us so very well is that just as is so much more complex,
there's so many more dimensions. and there is truth telling there is accountability not only by the way for the next of kin, but also for ukraine, that from 2014 has been saying to the world that russia was involved in the dumbass . and this court also acknowledged that and hopefully and that's also form of justice. this a court ruling can also contribute to future generations in trying to settle on a common, historical and accurate historical account of, of what actually happened back then in 2014 at a samuel romani. and oxford, your, your reaction more than 10 different nationalities will on board m h, 17. was this verdict, a balance one and what do you think it achieves? why the verbiage is all on. certainly a balanced line. we actually look at the details of this case is important to keep in mind a davinsky, one of the suspects and car jenko the others as fact dad actually communicated with each other on the day of the attack, saying that i missed, i had struck
a late cranium dead, jacqueline, this was kind of a or a foreign jet that was coming forward. and this was in the military success. and then the russians backtracked it with the farmers of barrows aforesaid, like they typically do. they, he's ukrainian, says even tried to assassinate vladimir putin, they claimed as ukrainian book missile, and that they've been promoting disinformation and conspiracies about this ray ears . so this was a returned to the truth. i think that the verdict was jest, and there's a practical implications. however, it's very, very unfortunate to see as the suspects are not going to face punishment eager, chicago, and who after years of promoting false eds and claiming that the corpses were perhaps not fresh or that the ready is that it emitted in 2020. and there was some degree of more responsibility because he was the commander of the donnie. it's forces, but he lives in russia and his allegedly on the front lines, new crane with a $100000.00 battery lesbians, a, b o w. he's not going to be punished at the other shoe. it's the same bank. so it's a victory for truth. but it's very sad that the ultimate perpetrators of this are
not going to be held accountable for their cramps. thomas, what further action would you like to see taken? because samuel said, it's highly unlikely that the suspects will be extradited and also highly unlikely that the russian government will take responsibility. well, i believe that we will have to wait for both and his government to step down or being all the throng, whatever the case that the next president of russia will, the awfully willing to acknowledge their involvement and make the excuses to the families involved. so that is what i'm looking for, and this verdict at least now shows who has been responsible for supplying the book miss. now, and these 4 person that were on trial. and now we know that there are many more that you young trial higher the rank lowering ring. i am personally looking
for one of them to do to be in jail. i would like to see that the russian government is now 1st stopping all their lives and acknowledge their responsibility. and we will wait for that. we will, i will put pressure on it. i will ask my government and the international governments to pressure on russia to do that. marie could talk to us about the evidence. the court had to to way understand where it was different evidence from different sources. we know, of course, that moscow has long maintained that it had no party to the conflict that unfolded in dawn, back in 2014, that had not did not control the pro ration fighters into net at this trial during this trial and with the evidence was the clarity, proven as to who was to blame and whether russia had direct responsibility.
yes, the court was extremely clear on this and it repeated over and over how strong the evidence was of russia's involvement, and that that book came from russia. and so to court really set clearly, there is no doubt that this has happened. and also there's absolutely completely incredible to think of a scenario that ukraine would have been involved if only for the impossibility of fabricating all that evidence. then, within no time, and the court has gone through every element of all the evidence, and that's a lot of that, and that's very high, slee here. and so then they said that they didn't find any manipulation at all. so they did use lapses, recorded telephone conversations by the s b u, but they then, of course, had them research forensically analyzed for tampering with they use a lot of information from usage like from people standing by seeing the book come
by making pictures and videos and posting them on social media, open source investigators that connected all of that social media post and other information. it was corroborated with telephone moss. so the phones that the recorded conversations were also radiated to telephone mass. it was connected also with satellite information, weather reports looking at for instance, the shades that you can see on the pictures and whether that was correct with the time of day and the sunshine and the type of weather it was and, and so there were so many different types of evidence, also witness statements, but not many, not very many of them that the court said there is just so much evidence. it is very clear. it's absolutely impossible that any of the alternative scenarios could have happened. it was russia, not ukraine, of samuel russia, dismissed, has dismissed this verdict as politically motivated. does the case make the responsibility of the credit in clear and your view?
i eat the case. there's a, there's one smell the kremlin clear because it's undeniable that the person separate us and danny asked were proxies and puppets of the kremlin right. eager gurkin arrived over there. and the men did deb no revolution nor an insurgency. athenians had to fight against after the annexation of crimea, and it was part of a direct russian effort to stabilize each new crime and the rest of the country more broadly. so these actors were clearly part of russia strategic plan. and russia gave of firm directions for them on, on military activities. and that's why that's why i think that ultimately russia is to blame contextually along with the evidence that was just mentioned. ok, let me come back to you thomas now because some victims families have suggested that russia's full scale invasion of ukraine. this here may have been, may, could, could have been averted if the international community had pushed back harder against moscow in the years after the mh 17 disaster. do you share that view?
what do you think the international community could have done then? yeah, you know, if i do share that feeling certainly prove that this whole war that we see today started a few years ago and i me, 17, was the one of the big 1st casualties. i'm mr. green, our international leaders from the united states from far and europe have not been able to draw the line for problems and has accepted that he would go further and further further. and even today, i must say, i am i surprised to see what it allows to do in your brain, how many people he is allowed to kill. but that is, that is
a very, very difficult political decision on how much we want to be involved. and do we want to have a world war? yes or no? right. i say that the united nations in this regard has not shown any strength to avoid this kind of serious problems in the world. and i'm, and i'm really asking myself, what is needed? how is it possible that russia today is getting it so out of all kinds of international platforms to avoid any responsibilities? this is not the kind of world or the order that we are looking for says will like world war 2 nations. and it's not happening. yeah, i agree. and tammy did, did you think the, the west turned a blind eye in 2014? do you think the situation that we find ourselves in today in ukraine could have
been avoided? had some type of action been taken after the bounding of flight m a 17. well, that was all related to each other in the identified m a 17, which is one of the major crimes that was committed with the other was of course the annexation of crimea, which was the 1st violation of international law and the sovereignty of a european states since the end of the 2nd world war, and the remainder was the entire warren, don bass is directly backed by russian troops until the mints agreement. and then the russian troops and advisors who assisted the denied eleanor militias did not leave. so there may, 17 is going to be viewed into the broader context of russian russian against ukraine during that time period, which is a part aimed at over throwing and d, legitimizing a democratically elected government of foreign jenko that took the power to a popular revolution of your, my dad, so in that context, i think that the west is a lot to blame for, not taking stronger action, clearly signing your stream to expanding gas dependency and rich and russia. there's followed instead of imposing more stringent sanctions,
like some of the sort of sanctions that have been imposed now was a major, strategic and death. moral mistake in this context. and the fact that there was not any kind of clarity or any kind of verdict on the semi 17 case until now. and there hasn't been that have pressure on it, has led to russia using some of the seen narratives and false eds justify is walk rhymes new grain today. i in boucher for example. it went from as a sheet operation to claim the corpses were stage with the creditors train operation, so many others. so 8th is a lot to blame from the west. in this point of view america, the i c. c has already launched an investigation into whether war crimes have been committed in ukraine and have it set up a team to gather evidence about this. how does this mh 17 case set legal precedent on russia's invasion of ukraine? well, 1st of all, it makes it really clear that russia is, has been involved, has been lying. the court also yesterday was very clear and beat the multiple times
. marcia has actually fabricated evidence. and in addition to the international criminal court, we also see cases against russia as a state of european court of human rights and in the national court of justice. that also will involve revolt about the question of the involvement of russia. it has many types of responsibility that's important here. and in terms of criminal accountability, it all relies on evidence. and what we see also in the last 10 years is so the huge revolution in the types of evidence that are being collected and this case as well . as some other cases, you see the digital evidence social media user meet user generated information is being used and is entering now to courtrooms. and this court yesterday confirmed that indeed, even though sometimes you know, that might not be perfect in terms of chain of custody or other types. you can test the reliability sufficiently that it can be used, especially corroborated what other types of evidence that it can be upheld and that also for crimes committed an ongoing on a conflict where it's difficult to,
to get to the crime scene by formal investigators that this type of evidence is admissible and very usable. ringback in improving them, but, but isn't it difficult though with that type of evidence to establish the chain of command in, in cases like this, it could be. but for instance, what's very interesting in this a case is you saw all sorts of usage. it all sorts of social media open source research into the factual relations between these individuals connected with record a telephone conversations. and when we think of the ukraine conflict in the, in the crime sort of being committed an accountability for them in the future. he s b u has shown that also for these individuals, but also telephone conversations with bullet di and stood gov and others. it has a lots of recorded telephone conversations of people already used in this in which 17 ross. so i think there's going to be a lot to come for future prosecutions. all right, thomas, your thoughts about this?
how significant is this verdicts for other cases being brought against russia? and are you hopeful, i know as a, as a, you know, so victims, family member that the chain of command can be establish and perhaps that those at the top can be held responsible. well, this is really a very important for us that we know that the prosecutor here in the mountains will announce early next year. no offense against other persons in the chain of command. i know from what i've seen from a guest that has been very helpful in this cult ring mays basis, and they have shown the picture of all those people that are responsible, higher in the change. i do think that this is going to be very helpful to get to
these other people that are really responsible and we'll see these as i said by our prosecutor early next year, and i'm looking forward to that. alright, samuel, your thoughts? do you think generals and other leaders, russian generals, and other leaders, could be prosecuted, could president put in be prosecuted one day over the war and ukraine and other crimes committed? and how difficult will it be? you think in court, whether an international court or a special court that's set up to, to judge these crimes, to establish a chain of command. so i really after this war started at the i c. c, establish proceedings that would be able to deal with that. of course, russia is not a part of g i c c, because it withdrew a trade some, a procedural obligations. and deb, but many european countries that the americans, nato countries have been working with ukraine on collecting biometric evidence, collecting a documentary, evidence of what russian work, grimes. so these tribunals can one day be held. ukraine has also initiated
proceedings against lower level russian military personnel and into resulting the state of convictions for cramps. but obviously, the big problem is that russia has got a categorical opposition to extradite its own citizens about a man who made that very clear. for example, when the buller investigation came out and there was discussions about actually jerry officers and ball brush interference or you have any promotion who was on the at the i was one of us and who was absolutely no, we don't extradite. so unless his political change inside russia, i don't think that is going to be very likely that these out perpetrators are going to be brought to justice in person. but certainly a chain of command can be established in other figures like ser cove who are so heavily involved in shaping ukraine palsy at that time can be prosecuted by gurkin car jenko and the suspects that we seen. i yesterday. thank you so much. thank you for a very interesting and insightful discussion. thomas johnson marie could hone and samuel romani, thank you to all 3 of you for joining us today on inside story. and thank you for
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