tv Inside Story Al Jazeera February 18, 2023 8:30pm-9:01pm AST
africa lodge shall continue. meanwhile, across central and southern parts of southern africa, some heavy showers around at east to south africa into zimbabwe into most and big just noticed this developing system. all that is tropical cyclone. freddy is pushing towards the madagascar as you go on through the next couple of days. as he pushes in mid wake, this lot is to cause widespread flooding with damaging winds. ah, counties controlled insulation. moscow is one of them look to stay in the world and has an incredible facial recognition technology. how does the narrative improve public opinion better? no, wasn't asked. how is it? jim listened. we flaming the video spread like wildfire. they denied the passport in ukraine. the listing closed dissects the media. we don't cover the news, we cover the way the news is covered. scotlands 1st minister nicholas sturgeon has
announced her resignation. some blame her for not achieving independence from the united kingdom. but where does this leave scotland separatist movement? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm mammograms room. the search is underway to find a successor for scotlands, 1st minister nicholas sturgeon. she announced her resignation on wednesday after more than 8 years on the job. the scottish national party is meeting to discuss the rules for a leadership contest to replace her. and while it chooses a new road ahead, a conference aimed at reviving a push for independence from the united kingdom has been postponed. we'll get to our discussion in a moment. first, this report from laurie challenz in edinburgh. for years nicholas sturgeon seemed
as solid as off his seat. the ancient volcano that towers over edinburgh. but political and geological errors both end office seat stopped erupt. thing 340000000 years ago. sturgeon's power disappeared with her resignation. announcements last wednesday. good morning, everyone. so the scottish national party is now looking for a new leader and a new path. they are no in a state of flux. and the key question for them is, what do you do about independence? what's the independence strategy? andy mckeever is a political analyst who watches scottish politics closely. it comes back to the decision that the u. k. supreme court made the backend of last year, where they said the scottish parliament did not have the power to hold a referendum by itself. nicholas surgeon. the answer to that question was what she called the defect to referendum. in other words, she boutique a national election like the general election that we expect next year. and she
would turn that into a vote on independence, but many in the s n p. so this is too risky, and it looks like the tactic is now dead in the water. a special party conference where sturgeon would have argued for it has been called off for now. appetite for an imminent rerun of the 2014 referendum is falling. and recent polls suggest pro independence has become a minority view. once again, nicholas sturgeon's ex, it may further erode support. i hope it does. why? because i want independence. you understand. so what are your hopes phase for? who's next and what i can do, i do know that come with a short last mistake. we'll put back the cause for independence because it's never been more than 50 percent. the doubt knows many of the world, i think, to stay in the union because we've lost the european union. we
probably don't want to lose longest union in the world. whoever is next will have to reinvigorate the independence cause and friend off opposition, party sensing, and opportunity. the race for an u. s. and p leader. and scottish 1st minister doesn't yet have a clear front runner candidates of until friday to wednesday. and then it's a 6 week contest with the members having until the end of march to make their choice. a choice that will usher in a new political age for scotland, rory challenz al jazeera edinburgh. ah, ah, let's go and bring in our guests. they're all joining us from scotland in edinburgh miles briggs, a member of the scottish parliament for the scottish conservative party in the isle of sky in blackford, a scottish national party member in the u. k. parliament and also in edinburgh. mark to flee pulsar and director of the different partnership, a research and consultancy firm
a warm welcome to you all. and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story . and let me start with you today. nicholas sturgeon has been such a force in scottish politics for so long and such a key figure for so long. how big of a shock was the announcement that she's resigning? but i guess when you look at it and has been the deputy 1st minister since 2007 out to becoming 1st minister in 2014, i guess people what we are that we're pushing the the end of her tenure in the leadership rather than perhaps being in the middle of it. so i guess in some respects we all knew that at some point that it would be, would be moving. and i think the timing, it was a bit of a shock. i have to say that i, i regret that she's done what she's done. i understand absolutely why. i was a small group of people had some conversations with leading up to this. i cancelled it against doing so. but i think being an office for the 1st minister of scotland,
any of the other default administrations, whether you're prime minister in the u. k, this is something that's all consuming. it's 247, a see 165 days a year and you don't have a private life to any great extent toll. so i definitely understand that in the light of, you know, what she has been thinking of all the questions that you have been in the office that is right for her to move on to the next stage is and have a from an end of the essay he's a proponent for independence, so she's not going away, but it signals that she's moving on to the next, the next chapter and her life. and i'm sure everybody but what to wish i have the best wish. i think she has been an outstanding 1st minister and i think in particular, when we think of that is of the cool, the outbreak of the press conference on behalf of the government coming into our living rooms up. and i just thought perhaps being seen elsewhere around the world as well, giving i think very clear,
guidance and leadership to people at that point. i think that can be very grateful for the role that she's played. miles. were you surprised by nicholas sturgeon's resignation? and what does this mean for the political landscape in scotland? where things like, instead of think the whole political community in scotland were surprised, i think, and people did maybe imagine that she would go after the next, you know, general section, which is time for next year. and, but this was a bit of a shock, it wasn't something which i think any journalist either to be quite honest and expected to be happening. and i think this does present an opportunity for reset, though in scottish politics and for the scottish parliament especially which nicholas burton has dominate to disperse minister for a years. and, you know, since it was established has been at high level within the s n p. so i think there is an opportunity for parties to look to and we move forward as a country, but we also politically and get back to normal politics. it's got the not a waste through the constitutional at prism of division and grievance. and i think
me personally, i hope that that's an opportunity for all parties to say a new vision for scotland as well. mark, does this resignation constitute any kind of a crisis for the scottish government? i don't think, i mean, i think it does mean assuming you mean in a public attitude, an opinion terms it's it's, it's very early to say that have been that been 2 or 3 snap polls are being taken since the 1st minister resigned earlier this week. and they tell us kind of conflicting things, and in some ways they tell us that actually the gap between the s and pay and the other parties is pretty much as large as it has been in terms of people's voting preferences. and they have obviously been the dominant party for a very long time in that regard. one pole had the gap between the s and p and labor
closing a savage. but you know, these are taken in the immediate aftermath of something which both in the miles of roddy said was, was quiet, of course, causing event. and i think it's going to take us a little while that people like me to carry out examine pulling data to really work out what they, what the impacts of this is going forward is that we'll be in touch. and there will be that will be, i think this is a moment of significant change for the country, but some, but what impact is going to be and who's going to benefit from this week is it is a bit premature. i think to, to be sure about where do things stand currently when it comes to finding a new leader for the s and p. as we understand that meetings are happening, how will the next leader of the party be chosen? and are there any clear successors waiting in the wings? but i think over the course of the next 30 days and expect people to formally declare that standing, i suspect that we have
a small number of people that will be coming forward. it is a democratic party, this is national parties. every member will have seen that every member will have. one of the things that we saw after that i friend of in 2014 that the, i think the membership has increased quite dramatically. so i think it's going to be interesting just to see how the shape. so how things that takes place and you know, miles of a research, i think it is the key that with, with any you lead or any you 1st minister, of course they will put their own standpoint things. and of course, i will be focus on the domestic agenda. i me the other across the, the public services. but, you know, i think one of the things, when people talk about the constitutional to be much of the debate of a substance that i, for end of the 2014, has been stuck on a discussion of process. and of course that's, that's important. i think in terms of winning the hearts and minds, seeing a change in support for independence, one way or the other will really be based on the economic arguments for
independence. and i think what we will see or the coming period is that to be used, for example, that almost green energy opportunity that we haven't spoken. i published a report just recently indicating that we have the opportunity to increase our green energy cycle between now and 2015 on behalf of the s and p. actually next week i'll be launching a, a program to my scotlands green industrial future. and we really need to set a sustainable economic growth and scotland and my my challenge to those on, on the other side as well. let's listen to each other. let's treat the public with respect and how the, how we deliver for the scope and how to be good, the economy. how do we get the taxes that allows us to invest that our public services, the way that we want. and i hope to what we have over the coming period, it is on the to the gate, mississippi can safety. and that me, the former 1st minister will certainly not a much portal as well. and since you mentioned the independence movement, i,
i didn't want to get to that with you. you know, after the u. k. supreme court's decision of 1st mister sturgeon said she would back using the next general election as a de facto referendum. that was him. that was considered to be controversial. i want to ask you if you think that that is a viable strategy going forward. and also there was supposed to be a conference in march aimed at reviving a push for independence from the u. k. that as we understand it has been postponed, is that going to be rescheduled, and do you think that will be sooner rather than later? yes, it will be rescheduled and it will be sooner rather than later. but i think it's right when you're going through an election for a new leader, the new leader is able to express their views on the way i have. one of the things i'll say, i regret that we're in the position that we're in because our sales degrees, we went into the scottish collection of 2021 with manifest ultimate. and if we won
that we will deliver an independence referendum. and what we see is that westminster is effectively say no, they will not consent to the demands of the scottish parliament, the independence majority of that. and it's in that context that you find this to be a defect to referendum, you know, reference will come and future will be decided. i think it's better than that sooner rather than later. but what we will do is that we will seek to explore the best way of achieving that, setting alongside that, as i said, we need to have that to be about how we transform the economy of scope and hope to drive up investment. how we deal with the, the social challenges that we see. so an essence, i think will be both these things over the, the period ahead and the conference that we will have once you leave us a low also that you leader to, to know exactly what the way ahead is for the national party. and perhaps my extension the way to independence movement miles. miss sturgeon, scotland longest serving 1st minister. she said when she announced
a resignation that she had become too polarizing a figure to continue after 8 years in the role. do you think that assessment is correct? had she become to polarizing a figure? i think it is right what she said, and i think all polling suggests and if you're support request or you're against her and the people in school really base their minds up on her personally to be quite honest. but i think the, the opportunity is 1st to try to look towards her, the parliament, her scottish politics is moving forward because we've been stuck, as i've said in this constitutional hold for too long. i think for what i hope is that opportunity presents itself for people to take a look at. like can canada as well, where after a period of division and constitutional division, people decide that they want to move on in normal politics at resumes. which i hope as the 2nd largest party in scotland and the conservative party can capitalize on that and try to attract more support as well. my or if i could,
if i could also ask you, you know, where does this leave things when it comes to the u. k as a whole? because there are some saying that this would benefit certain political parties, that it would help the cohesiveness as the u. k, where do things stand on that front? well, i think he's too early to tell what i can say and, you know, my own party has had maybe too many leadership elections recently. the, but they are brutal things. and i think for the s m. p, they're about to embark on a number of weeks of what is often a divisive leadership election. and i fully expect to the end of that depending on who wins the election. people in the s n p to probably leave that party because they didn't want that leader in place. so i think that the union and assignment majority of people who want to see is state the united kingdom in scotland. i think based certainly. and that the union feels start stronger and safer with nicholas
sturgeon assessment. mr. mark, i do have a question for you. i'll get you in just a minute. e and i saw you react to miles. was saying there's, i'm going to give you a chance to jump in right now. yep. at the end of the day and as an independent apollo, we sent people to the scottish parliament to represent one of these days, the conservative party should accept those that support independent one. the election of 2021 is right that we have that rendered people have the same look. there is a way spread belief that leading the european union has been an enormous economic costs to us. people are desperate to find a way back to this is not going to go away. supporting the independence is not just the regular search and not just about the s and p is about the the which is the aspirations of the disclosed people. and so on the line, we have a prime ministers in 10 downing street. it's going to have to stay democracy in the right to the people of scotland to choose their own future market. where does public opinion in scotland currently stand on?
the issue of scottish independent stands where, broadly speaking, where it has stood for quite some time, which is that we are pretty much just a sickly split down the middle on the issue. and even they the, the 2 or 3 all being conducted since the 1st minister's resignation. this waiting can have confirmed, right? so the latest one out says what you know, in december and labor, independence and 51 percent are against the idea independence, which in my world is a pretty washer right search. and i suspect is right, you know, this is not an issue that he's going. there is not an issue that is going to go away. you know, the polling nonsense that the resignation would tend to, would tend to support. i do think however into if we, if we're looking forward and we're looking to what the opportunities are here, i think has both in a miles have eluded so we've been kind of stuck on the process of this now for,
for quite some time. we've done less about with the basing off the pros and cons of independence and been absolutely focused on you know, what's the route to another referendum blocking another referendum and actually, well, i think that the, this the resignation, the 1st minister this week office the, the new leader of the s and pay and of course you 1st minister, whoever that says to perhaps because he and the mentioned earlier can try and try and move the argument to the debate itself relevant to the process. and i think that would be quite good thing to be honest. miles, it looked to me like you were reacting to what mark was saying there. did you want to jump in? no. i think one of the key parts which i'm really being discussed during this was nicholas surgeon's own strategy around this, which was a de facto referendum that conference. and which was going to,
i think rubber stumble has now been cancelled. but i don't think for the independence movement in scotland necessarily. they have answered the questions which continue to hang over them in terms of the white paper which was presented to people in scotland. 2014. they don't think they've moved on. and i do think there is a need for the s n p to, to recruit, to look at actually where they go with independence. and the period of time out of office is probably the healthiest period to do that. so i think it'll be interesting to see where the independence movement and people in scotland when it's beyond the s m p. m. actually maybe this is a time for them to really look at where they have been taking and that project and not moving very far. and i see you're shaking your head. they're miles is saying that it's time for the s and p to maybe take a step back. i have a moment of reflection. what do you say? well, of course i never take for granted, but i think us as we pointed over so right and quite high in the fall. so let's
wait and see. but, you know, my offer to, to miles and to everybody else on the union side is about to be about these ideas. i've spoken about the, the end of the paper. i released just a few short months ago, the potential to go from 12 to gigawatts of, of green energy, to create more than 325000 jobs by 2050. to use that green energy as a basis. i pretty enough feel future. we will not, we believe the opportunities, right? i am, frankly, a 2nd bye are record long periods of time, but not being able to deliver sustainable economic with that goes right back to the fifty's. if you look at a relative population that you see every decade is decline. i want to change that. so let's not want to be, what are they? the road maps to increasing economic growth dealing with the social challenges that we face. my message to those on the other side and join us and not to be let's do, let's not talk of division and you know that the majority of language is used.
let's trim the elect to and the we should be treated less, pete each other less. how not to be of a scotland future. yeah, mild go ahead. if you want to jump in, go ahead. no, i agree with the and i think it's refreshing to hear what you saying about the paper he's published and, and that work, i don't know. we did the independence though to have that debate. these are the dates i want to see in the scottish parliament and we haven't really had that space . so does government have very little legislation they're bringing forward in this session either. so i think there is a need for a refresh, for the new 1st minister to get back to basics, to look at their records and in scotland. some of the major challenges which this government have presided over drug tests, b, payment gap and be at the chest, which is currently facing huge difficulties, are transport system and is also needing that focus. and we need to politically, as a political community in scotland, get back to these issues. and now we see them through the constitutional prism. actually we've got the parents, we've got the opportunity to transform scotland with our scottish parliament. and i
hope the new 1st man to take that up and reaches of cross poverty divides as well. my own party has about 15 bills currently were developing. and this one is government will, i think, find a lot of common ground with what we want to see, be it from domestic abuse to other reforms. so i hope this is a chance for the new 1st minister to get back to their job of being 1st minister, and to actually bring the country together on these key policy areas as well. so mark, i'm curious to get your point of view on this because what you're hearing essentially to, to members of the political class in scotland essentially saying that a healthy debate needs to be had. but the fact of the matter is that politics have become more polarized in scotland, so will constituents allow this debate to actually happen, or will it be politics as usual, going forward? if you have a society where in, you know, half members are for independence and half aren't, you know what, how do you move forward from that?
well, it's a good question and that's one of the key challenges. i think the new leader will face. i mean, there is beyond the constitutional question, there is a significant in tre, off issues that the new, the new leader on the new 1st minister will need to deal with. and this includes thing, the gender recognition, the gender of recognition reform, includes things like the new deposit, the term scheme. and the new recycling scheme includes as models, which is look about their problems with the, with the check somewhere, whether education and social, what people, what public expect is for the 1st minister, whether that is to be able to deal with, with all these issues. i think if you ask people and there's a lot of evidence around of what most concerned you know, what you care most about, you know, at the moment is the state of the, the economy and things like rising prices, the cost of living wages, not wages,
and salaries not going up in line with, with the cost of living things, states of the states of the national health service. now that is not to say that people do not care about the constitutional issue. people, people deeply about it. and actually, you know, about 80 percent of the off the population has a very fixed view on the concentration. so about 40 percent will probably always stay in the union about 40 percent will for independence. immovable. which leads about 20 percent of people in the middle who are kinda persuaded in one direction or another approach it up. that's quite big reason why we all kind of stuck on this struggle. this issue because you know, these on a, it's an attitude towards pretty fix. haven't been been talking about it the last you know, 1015 years mark. let me, let me just follow up with you about that. i mean, from your point of you,
has any scottish liter been able to rally the pro independence movement? the way that miss sturgeon did, and does the departure of miss sturgeon mean? that those advocating for scottish independence are running out of chances to make it a reality? well, good yesterday or the 1st question is it depends where your starting point is, right? so i think if you, if you looked at where to choose to independence that say a year out from the referendum. so that sides that a mid 2013 they were somewhere around 30 to 35 percent. and of course within a year they went up to 45 percent. and in terms of the results of the referendum, and that was that point. it was examined that was leading both the s and pay. it was 1st minister. i'm the leader of of the yes campaign, probably independence campaign. now, you know, since then we've seen a broadly support for independence has gone on since that's what we're about to 5050. that have been periods, particularly during covert minister,
was seen as doing a very good job, particularly in comparison to the prime minister and in the u. k. at the time where, you know, support the pendants. walton, sort of mid, mid fifty's for a sustained period of time, but it's now about $5050.00. so i think you know that both the, both the 2 previous ministers complain some success in bringing support from the pendants to the ladies at the moment in terms of your 2nd question. well, i think it depends who the next leader is of what they decide. what they decide to do with this, i mean, i think, you know, we can be, we can, can continue to be sort of very broke down in the process. you know, do we want to the fact, you know, do want to treat an election as a factor referendum, what we going to do in terms of relations with the mark, mom and trying to mark mark, i'm sorry, i'm so sorry to interrupt you. we're just starting to run out of time. i just want to get one last question into you and we have about a minute and a half to have
d. and i want to ask you from your vantage point, what is nicholas surgeon's legacy going to be? well, you know, i think not, i don't like the sports independence increase before the 2014 referent. not to some extent since that as well. i think what nicola has done has left very strong foundations for the nice lead us to build up on both in terms of looking at the electoral pine people that westminster relation latin to come next year. and i think the ability to then strengthen the argument. so it depends, let's, let's deliver on, on the domestic agenda. let's improve health and he's not very happy with the artist, but we will build the, the economic piece discussion about the arguments, the democratic arguments as to why thought which should be an independent country. all right, we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much. all of our guests mark, typically as briggs and ian blackboard and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website or dot com. and further discussion go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can
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