the same area these attacks took place us with distribution points run by the us and just ready back. goal is which monetary and foundation the organization to code the 8 operations back in may of the israel blocks or you in agencies from delivering food and folding has moved from data. isabella, there is some a arriving. we're talking about a couple of a flower trucks, that's our interest. but due to the fact that there are only little number of trucks going in, there is no distribution points. the way that used to be there were supposed to be order with distribution points was with program distribution points, units of distribution points. but since the locate that has been imposed on the causal strip, who does not entering, we're talking about only a limited very limited number of drugs coming in every single day. and people are very desperate are being killed. us are trying to take whatever is on the trucks.

we have been seeing policy news trying to get a back, a flower bus every single time. this happens. there's really forces launched, artillery selling and also clubs. clusters are getting close to means of the same exact way as it's to be some points what policy and use need is at least $600.00 trucks of food entering every single day. also, there need to be more securing for these trucks to get into the, the warehouses for distribution. but uh uh, but as long as it's read, it's only listing very little number of drugs. there is no way there could be any distribution points policy use are going there to these distribution centers for only one reason that they're the only people that are distributing food right now. and please, we need to know that the food that is offered is very little and according to what people are saying, and we're talking about thousands, thousands of tens of thousands of policies that are approaching these distribution points every single day. most of these policies go back with 0 fluid because the

quantity is very limited policy and you start running and, and rushing to get what every food they could get. what people need is more food, a lot of food, the opening of crossing and the open more trucks to enter the causes to. all right, what's it from me saw in a high it on to stick around though because we will have the lights as throughout the day on the wrong is route conflict that says the wrong foreign minister on bus . ok. she proposed to travel. so do you need the tools these european? ok. all right, we'll continue here with news a serve on a off. reframe the, [000:00:00;00]

the super frustrating game was going to be a reformer, right. they looked at his father who was the high of communist official, but changing thing did something different. i think the ology came back into the for it. and it's clear that he is not just obsessed with staying and power, but he really sees himself as a leader who is chosen by destiny to make china strong. the for decades, china is waiters promised economic prosperity in exchange for take control over the country's population. but is that a trade off that the chinese people except in his that lead china to undermine democratic norms globally? i'm ken ross for 3 decades. i led human rights watch an organization that investigates of uses and pressures, governments to respect human rights. and this episode of the frame,

i'm speaking with emily fact and award winning chinese american germ in her latest book, the explorers identities belonging and the human cost of state control. and she's going to try and we think it's great to have you. it's lovely to be here with you. can you are a journalist, an american of, of chinese after city and you worked in china full time beginning in 2015 until finally you were expelled from the state that i shared with you on most of the like, felt quite as long. yeah. but i wonder if you could just begin by describing what i understand. i think you saw which was incredible, intensification of the repression understanding. so i have the fortune, the misfortune to move to badging july 2015. and i didn't know this at the time, but looking back i landed quite literally a week after

a mass detention or asked about almost 400 human rights defenders. human rights lawyers, many of whom i think you probably know know, knew many of whom i interviewed later on were swept up and detained, and a lot of them are later in present or disbarred. and they couldn't continue the work they were doing in, in years past. and that was kind of a watershed moment because they had been some of the most effective legal reformers in the chinese system. and the law was changing to put to protect more civil liberties. and so the 1st real move to clamp down on the political space and expression in china was to then to the rule of law to suit the interest of the state. then we saw people getting removed from blogging sites, censorship online ramping up in the building blocks of the surveillance state and censorship machine that are been placed today in china. really coming into full strength as i moved there. yeah, i think every people these days,

i think don't even remember how much space there was for this kind of independence . yeah. and i saw so that's what i go. i saw that switch. you know, i saw people who were a big the bloggers with millions of followers who were writing polemics against chinese officials online. and then about a year after i move to china, their accounts were closed down dissidence that i would meet in beijing who were active during the $198910.00 and protest who could still go out and do things like register their own political candidates for local elections that was going on a year that i moved to china. i mean things that are on thinkable now that wouldn't happen then. so i saw this transition and the decade or so that i spent in the chinese speaking world reporting ultimately became a decade long project documenting how china was unfortunately going through another cycle of, of oppression in closing down. and so what's this about? i mean, the chinese government seem to be, you know, perfectly successful with the degree of freedom and people frustrating thing was going to be a reformer. right. they looked at his father who was the high of communist official . he said, all the right things about economic reform. very,

very quickly move to shore at his own control, centralized power and move the communist party back into the 4 of chinese civil society. and that was in part at 1st viewed as kind of just this is what a leader does. he comes in any clears house. basically every chinese leader comes in his head of the communist party. does an intake corruption purge puts the people that they want in power, but she just painted something different. i think at the ology came back into before it became much more pronounced in policy. and he has drastically structured, restructured government and the economy. so that power centralized under him, sometimes at the cost of economic worth. and that was how political performance was measured next on the tech companies because they're too powerful. yes. and it also started to creep into the realm of culture, a free expression of media. and one of the big things that he did in new 1st came in is he gave this internal speech. this is called a find something called document 9, which i write about an in my book that came out in 2015. the document came out in

2015 if you start to talk about how it's really important control the realm of ideas, but that is a source of political power. and also conversely, if you don't control it, a source of political subversion, i think that he's very much concerned about the stability of his country. but the stability is country rest, not just on power that he's centralized as under him, but having a unified national identity. and the party is very much the center of running that country. and i think that's surprising if you study his personal history. he's someone whose family and he himself suffered terribly at the hands of the communist party. his, his family was persecuted, he was sent down during the cold revolution he was forced to live in a cave, were forced to labor with peasants for it for several years. but instead of coming from that experience in thinking, maybe the communist party isn't a great organization for china. he comes back believing that he wants to prove his family is more red than any other. and a more patriotic, more dedicated to the cause of the communist party than any other political party. and that in fact,

some of the excesses and problems of the party can be fixed. and he's come in to fix the party and make sure that it returns to the central role of governing china . i mean, some of this you can understand them using corruption to get rid of the rivals, you know, reinvigorating the party fine, you know, being a bit more de logical. but you know, behind the repression seems to be something else. there seems to be this, you know, almost, you know, in security about the stability of china, but the communist parties persistence in power. and, and that's surprising cause, i mean, you see, she's been paying and it seems self confident. but nonetheless, he's, you know, comes in with his own sending and security and cracks now and what's behind that, where there is a display of strange. sometimes there's a perception of weakness, right? it comes because he is looking at the history of the soviet union. and he gives a speech early on where he says, why did the soviet union collapse? and it was because there were too many internal divisions as and there wasn't a unified vision for how the party should rule and where the country was going. and then quote, no one was man enough to resist those divisions. the implication being that he is

going to be man enough to stand up to what he perceives as divisions and chinese, this like divisions, politically and economically, asians for the country ethnically. of course, china is a very, very diverse country, and so he is going to homogenize the country to make sure that everyone is on board with this one mission, which is the strength of the country, even at the cost of foreign policy, economic development, all the things that we're seeing today, and china, clearly the soviet union is his nightmare. and he's going to avoid the dissolution of china. but is he just saying we have to say empower or is there a rationalization that this is somehow better for the chinese people? so i've never spoken of changing thing myself. i, you know, i don't know exactly what he's thinking, but he puts out a lot of speeches of documents he gives. he's internal party trainings and that's written up and the most disseminated party officials from all the way down to the local level. and it's clear that he's not just obsessed with staying in power, but he really sees himself as

a leader who is of any i'm putting words in his mouth here, but chosen by destiny to make china strong. and that he has become a leader at the moment we're china is facing extreme internal and external challenges. and he sees himself is positioned and passed with is very weighty responsibility to make sure that china comes out of these challenges stronger. and therefore, that justifies a lot of the repression of the crackdowns that, that we've seen domestically with in china. clearly, you know, when you, when you, through the chinese communist party talking about what they've done, they're very proud of having taken hundreds of millions people out of poverty. to what extent is that a justification for the, you know, the pretty repressive rule that we have at the moment? i think it's pretty central. i mean, the narrative is changing, but i think in the last couple of decades, i think that china seas economic prosperity and economic well being as a kind of human, right. even if in the pursuit of that development, you might trample on environmental rights or you're tearing down people's houses

because they're not prospecting private property, things like this. but what's been surprising, i think that they're shooting, paying is. they're also starting to think about what does prosperity mean. they realize that for decades of impressive economic growth has created huge social inequality. so using policies that are trying to reduce education inequality, to make sure people have more access to good quality education. we've seen them try to attempt down on the power of tech companies because they are worried about things like digital privacy. and now, china, despite a lot of economists saying, you know, you must increase consumption and try to get people to safe, less than spend more to buttress the economy against things like trade, head winds, with the us, you seem shooting paying and his economic policy makers basically say, we don't really want to rely on consumption, we would rather invest in cutting edge technologies and manufacturing even heavy industries. sometimes because we believe long term that gives us a stronger long term economic outlook. even if in the short term what we're seeing

is economic bi towing and china. to me you talked to moment ago about tom, you know, the ethnic diversity of china being one of the things that she shouldn't ping fears . i wonder if you could talk a bit about, you know, what you saw through your time and she and jane and how that illustrates this broader communist party view of ethnic diversity in china. so what i was reporting about was starting in about, i mean it really ramped up around 2017 mass detention. and then later in prison and us acetate, quakers and also other ethnic groups cause x, it was backs missing the minority. yeah, the leakers are a tricky minority. they used to be a majority engine, john, but there has been a lot of an estate encouraged migration from other parts of china. so they're now just about 40 percent of the population hang on, the detention campaign that i was reporting on starting in 2017 was not the 1st time something like this. it happened, but i think it's been the, as you see now, the biggest in scope since the piercing was founded. and the justification on the chinese side was they were dealing with internal security matters. they believed

that they were facing a terrace threat that somehow they were leaders and she's young. her link to extreme is groups outside of the country and they would try to plot a tax in the country and there's no solid evidence for this. there were a string of terror attacks across china, the china had blamed on the wiggers, but it's use those attacks and justify detaining up to, you know, millions and millions of leakers on very, very, very poetry evidence with no due process whatsoever. and many hundreds of thousands of leakers remain in some kind of detention in prison that even after they've been in china's was re educated, released and, and live under supervision. and when i was doing this reporting, it made people in china very angry because they would say, well, look at, look at the economic development we brought to the region now that it's safe tourists can go and they can walk on the streets. and certainly economic development matters, but it's not all that matters when you're imprisoning so many people for really no good reason whatsoever and, and destroying their culture and their language. tremendous. essentially the force

of the stopping muslims to stop using their tradition language to, you know, give up their own culture and become, in a sense, you know, han chinese mandarin speaking chinese communist party worshipping people. you know, think that in the communist parties, mines and this is why they've emphasized re education so much is that in their mind, this is kind of the solution for all of the issues they felt have come out of saint john and, and the change on issue comes as a result of trying to inheriting empire essentially, right? these are changing as part of border as part of land, the chain, empire congress, a lot, a little kind of north western quadrant disease really means new, new border, new border lands. and as the peers, he became a nation state and took on and basically most of the territory between empire had conquered china had to think about, well, how do we define the nation state if it's an s no state? well, the target of minority of, of the week or so just don't belong. well then how can we make them more chinese and how do we define chinese? is it something that can encompass different language groups, different ethnic groups?

it turns out no, and the weaker is a suffer because of that. given this, you know, quite severe repression. what striking is that when china is criticized for this, it's extraordinarily sensitive, and you would think serious is incredibly powerful country. you know, the 2nd biggest economy in the world, right, superpower, what do they have to worry about? and they go out of their way to crush anybody who dares to criticize what's that about? i think part of it is a genuine. the outrage. they do feel like they've done so much to economically develop these regions, including to bed that she's young and why doesn't the rest of the world get that and appreciate it. but of course, they're missing the whole picture, which is that you're also trampling on people's human rights. and also, i think that they see as a direct threat to china is sovereignty. and this comes down to this idea of a unified vision with strong borders of defending china as a nation state,

the territory and encompasses, and it's absolute ability to do what it wants with its citizens. yeah, i mean, i certainly see this when i look at chinese diplomat speaking at the un, where they, you know, essentially claim that what a government's does towards people is its own business. i mean, the whole idea of human rights going back to the universal declaration in, in 1948. was that the way a government treats its people is everybody's concern. yeah. and trying to us to walk that back. i mean, i think china, for, for historical reasons as well as sensitive to anything they perceive us for an interference. i think very much the, the, the age of colonialism, of imperialism of the opium wars. that trauma continues and the chinese political psyche. and i think that there are elements of the chinese security state who genuinely believes that there is only descent and places like change in hong kong. because there are 4 and elements that have been deliberately riley of the population. that's not true, but it does feed into this kind of historical trauma that i think china does feel

about ideas of, of imperial conquests to, for an interest here and uh, and it gives them a way to justify when they feel they've done so much for these places why they're continues to be defend despite how hard they crack down. and i think we're going to, i'm going out to the audience and ask questions. i'm right back here. yes, there's mcmann with costs. so even last year we had experienced a boot of the pollution student led to evelyn in buying a this week on see did a lot a 16 year long data sheet. so what, what holds the chinese people back to stand up back in his, the authority enrolled in china? yeah, i mean, this is, you know, there's a big question i have what, what prevents the rebellion? and we did kind of see a rebellion during the 0 club had lockdown. i think for a 1000000000 might be a strong word very certainly we saw mass dissatisfaction against these policies, these corporate policies in china. i think 1st of all,

there isn't as high a level of dissatisfaction against the communist party as people might think in china. i think that overall, you know, small majority of people at the very least are content with how the communist party is really in china. there also is an extremely repressed element of society that isn't so satisfied that hasn't been allowed to express itself and may be that, that, you know, you would see perceptions of the party change. i think there would be as the question of how much though, if there were for an open internet for example. and in china, i also noticed this curious phenomenon and people are unhappy with government policy and china. they would often blame their local leaders. so there was a lot of criticism for the government, but it was the local government. and if only the thinking was they could get their complaints to the central government and by doing staging would fix this problem immediately. it was local governments that were corrupt is like the and that's the major sure influx exactly now. and so i think

a lot of anger is often channel towards the immediate representative. they see where's majoring as far away and hazy and concept. ok. let's take another question if and so i'm seeing it posted as a case with a bond t from division regime. so i wonder what those home home being to debate any regime off to the 1997 homes on hand over as well as the 2019 homeless them and we spend 50. okay. you know, one of the characters i, i provide the book begins as kind of a chinese nationalist and through his education and hong kong realizes that, that he has a set of political values that is actually intricately tied with the development of hong kong itself. not the mainland and sees those being sacrificed because hong kong is being part of become part of a greater china without preserving kind of distinctly what is what is valuable about hong kong was fascinated to me of the hong kong was i think that it's brought

in so many ideas and expertise that has contributed greatly to china's economic development. so, i mean, what's frustrated me is, i think a lot of the openness and diversity of what hong kong represented on the borders of, of china, came to be seen as a dangerous liability. and that's kind of the argument in the book is like, this diversity is naturally there. it is an asset, even if you see it as, as creating divisions. and, and that is one of the strengths of china is that you have this natural diversity and political ideas and culture in the movement of people and ideas, but increasing that's been seen as, as a risk. let's take another question. and you'll you, what are the direct human rights for day to effects of china's alternative and know since the be no strings attached a development 8 approach in the global south. okay, thanks. do you want to describe the delta initiative for

a moment and this no strings attached approach? sure, the built in word initiative is like an amalgamation of 2 kind of separate projects, one like a maritime infrastructure project, one a land that was mostly focused on, on rail and roads that merge over a decade now ago. and what it's resulted isn't, is over a $101.00 trillion dollars in investment and loans given out to mostly countries in the global south to develop infrastructure. a lot of these projects benefit china. they're meant to target things like poverty deviation and helping under access populations, access social services and in, in infrastructure. but the criticism has been sometimes the loans given out were given out to people who couldn't pay them back. and i did a little bit of reporting and africa on, on the belt in road. and you know, i think it's a mixed bag. i think it's i think one of the big issues in terms of human rights has been because there are no strings attached in terms of particularly at 1st

labor standards environmental regulations that you did see a lot of the unfortunate export of labor exploitation and labor of these practices on these big projects, i think we're starting to see trying to get a little bit better with alton road. they don't want to give loans out that people can't repay. so they start to get giving out smaller loans, fewer loans, and they're trying to ensure that they get paid back. i think that they're starting to realize, you know, they have to have more engagement in local populations. part of as also because trying to itself doesn't have as much spare cash to throw around anymore. so i think it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing story, but in terms of human rights, it was a huge chance for china to make its own image abroad better. and to start on a stronger foot to mandate stronger environmental and labor standards. yeah, i mean the, the other element of this no strings attached, you know, loans with that always struck me was that the lack of transparency meant that there was no guarantee that the project was economically viable, which is how we start traps and merge so often. but also it was

a virtual invitation to corruption. yeah. it was basically saying to the auto crap, you know, take 20 percent, put it in your so it's bank account. that's fine. cuz now you're going to be loyal to china. when we ask you to vote with us at the us. so there was a very deliberate enhancement of corruption, which of course has now come back to haunt the chinese because the loans are not getting their page. okay, another question. how can governments and universities support chinese students who are studying abroad and say, or persecution and harassment from the government? what support can governments offer as well as universities or board for the student? and how big of an issue is this around the world? and i think he might be better quite his to answer this. yeah. i mean, i've been fascinated by the more sociological dynamics of oftentimes the greatest credit is a he see against the chinese people is from other chinese people and it's playing out in american campuses because that's where you have free expression. yeah, i mean, i've seen a lot of fear. i mean i, i teach at a university in, in,

in the us and regularly i chinese students who will come and talk to me privately. but won't say something in a class, mainly for fear of another chinese student that they'll report it back to. do you know the authorities back home and that their parents will get an unfriendly? does a ton, the police and you know, this is a difficult issues. i mean, it's hard to control that. i think what makes it more complicated, is it so many universities in the west are becoming dependent on the full fair tuitions. the chinese students are paying to the point that they're actually go in and discouraging professors from speaking to critically of china. so there is, you know, a real threat here to free expression here in the west as well. you have you have, you've been able to do much with with universities. i don't think there's a perfect solution. i know what the wrong solution is, which is, i mean, it is dangerous for your university is to be dependent on any one source of funding . the wrong solution is to stop chinese students from coming on. i think that's

what we're using governments do, and that seems like an easy fix, but it, it creates more problems and it's doing ultimately here, still hurting the chinese students who i think we, we, we do want to protect. ok. so maybe we can just wrap up here it's, it's very hard to know where things are going. but if you know the chinese government's claim to legitimacy has been so much the economic prosperity that has brought to the chinese people. and if that economy is now stagnating, what does this say for the prospect of, you know, ongoing acquiescence in this trade off between, you know, government promoted economy and the lack of individual freedoms? i think the economy is plateauing, but there's certain sectors of it that are benefiting. so not everyone is losing out on the industrial and technology policy that china is pursuing. and they've been warning for years now that we're not going to see the kind of double the g d p growth that china's been used to. but that is going to be worth it. the trend is

gonna be stronger at the other on the other side. so i think that there is a much stronger national stick message, a stronger message of its collective good, but this is better for the country even is individually. it might be tough going for the next couple of years. and they've been saying that well, before the current trade war with the us, the current friction with us. and so i think there's been a deliberate move away from staking legitimacy to pure economic growth. okay, emily, thank. thank you very much for your insights into the complex phenomenon of china. i'm thank you for the audience, for, for your insightful questions and thank you to everybody at home who, who doing it? the

it is international lines to shift where does the global stop and what is its vision for human rights and democracy? what does the globe his health think of human rights? what is the global not think of him that this fact on human rights decide on humanity. kendra speaks with acting as the hate great boss. again, dakota natalie. and we've tried to bind together that coin tosses when the knots tries to bind together, that fuss, clump cigarette refrain on allergies. era. the latest news, while there's much frustration about the lack of extra useful just to say the focus to remain on the ongoing kind of sites and gossip with detailed coverage with me say that the the value tongue go, oh, get killed was searching for food from the hoss of the story by repeatedly targeting 8 seek is me, a girl is a humanitarian foundation. israel has turned the simple fact of sticking,

so it into an audio

the of the trouble and several that e without, as he was continuing coverage of the israel iran conflict coming up in the program today around fires more miss aisles at southern israel as the conflict ventures a 2nd week around this foreign minister arrives in geneva, he's there for commercial talks with his european counterparts. us president trump says he will decide within the next 2 weeks if the us will be directly involved in the fonts. and we look at rushes reaction to seeing its original ally under