tv Dateline London BBC News July 17, 2017 3:30am-4:01am BST
in an unofficial referendum in venezuela. armed men on motorbikes opened fire on voters. the vote has been described by the president as meaningless. police in spain have accused an organised crime group of trading horsemeat that's unfit for humans — across europe. more than sixty people have been arrested. suspicions were first raised in ireland when test showed that some beef products contained horsemeat. the pakistani military says it has launched a major offensive against islamic state militants in the north—western region near the afghan border. of the military still denies the presence of is inside its territory. hello there. leaders, but are they
leading? welcome to dateline. donald trump was treated like royalty in paris as the french celebrated the revolution on friday's bastille day. in london, theresa may was trumpeting a different sort of revolution, publishing legislation to ta ke revolution, publishing legislation to take written from the european union. yet she is a diminished figure after losing her parliamentary majority and donald trump is that as into his link with the russians. the leader of iraq, however, held the right flag aloft on the streets. i'm joined by four
leading lights of journalism on the streets. i'm joined by four leading lights ofjournalism to discuss leadership. i think we are illegal as country at the moment. we haven't an entirely incapacitated and paralysed prime minister who has lost her majority and is dependent on eccentric northern irish mps. at the same time we have a country that is being driven by its people. it is being driven by its people. it is being driven by its people. it is being driven by the results of the referendum. no—one dare say we will look at this again. people have not changed their mind as much as we can
see. some slight move that basically people want out. more and more we get into the detail of what our means, the more shocking it looks for the future of this country. we are ina for the future of this country. we are in a state of paralysis. until the people change their mind, our government is forced to continue to do what it is increasingly knows is a catastrophe. how does it look from the continent of europe as they seek written‘s domestic problems and negotiations continuing, another round in brussels in the week ahead? many people are baffled with the mess of the negotiations, the lack of preparation. every week we are listening and now this is about the revelations of thing that was not thought through. yes, the row over the nuclear agency. every week we learn about ramifications of big
things that should have been sorted through before the referendum but we are now in nine years after. we are now analysing and at the same time i think the european union is sensing the weakness within the government. they are going to exploit that weakness as best as they can and they are going to try and have the best deal that they can have from a european point of view. all the sense that there might be some flexibility, i would be careful with that, because they also centres a weakness in the real possibility that britain might not leave the eu. and it is essentially the british voter's fault, because they took away theresa may's majority. a few backbenchers have kicked up a fuss and blurred the lines of it. we might carry on in parallel. is this a demonstration of the problems theresa may faces? the british people were lied to about how wonderful it would be
to leave europe. underneath it all, there was real anger and a bad economic situation, half the population have had no pay increases in ten years, housing costs are through the roof. it was a means of expressing another form of anger. some people will interpret the general election as people saying, we don't want a hard brexit, it is making things even worse. there is a kind of stasis within the government. between people who passionately think it is a disaster to leave and the lunatics who created this idea, this fantasy that somehow leaving europe was going to be the answer to all of our problems. nothing has been resolved between the two halves of the government. that is why theresa may stays precariously balanced between the two sides
who will never agree. it is notjust the government. look at the labour party. imagine if the labour party were led by a real, pro—eu campaigner, and the labour party were pro—eu. imagine how much different it would be and how much more weakness they would sense in europe. you can almost hear that lament in tony blair's voice. he has put himself in the wrong position, that he would get some of the blame if a brexit doesn't work. i think labour will end up there, but it is precarious, because so many labour seats voted for brexit. they are inching their way forward, including jeremy corbyn. his instincts may be different, but if he ever becomes the prime minister, it will be on the back of the brexit question. they are trying not to move faster than the people are moving. it is not good for the world, world stability. the changes in america as well,
the new leadership, taking advantage of this shaky situation. serving its own interests. they would rather have a unified, strong europe, leading the region into... the european leader is giving the impression of that, he has sent emmanuel macron to the gulf. taking a lot of initiative, trying to act as an honest broker they are. is he filling the vacuum of leadership? partly, no doubt about that. there is a situation in africa that is very significant as far as emmanuel macron is concerned. he is trying to negotiate in the area.
he should lead europe in this direction. there are huge problems in the middle east, in africa and asia. they cannot be sorted out. the united states cannot sort this out. even in the united nations, europe has the weight, the wealth and certainly the leadership to persuade... if you add emmanuel macron to the question of germany... we have always talked about the engine of europe being france and germany. tony blair was suggesting this weekend that europe as well felt diminished by the prospect, that europe would be weaker and less influential in the world. is that how people see it in brussels, paris, berlin?
they do, but they will never admit to it. they are also trying to make up for the loss of britain. britain is moving very fast, making up for the fact that they are leaving. we need to try to cover the ground that britain by others. i think it is very significant that emmanuel macron was elected at thisjuncture. he has wasted no time in trying to show that france is here, france is back and it is going to be a country that tries to make a difference in the world. it is significant that his first steps were strengthening connections with germany, strengthening the engines of europe. also making steps towards russia, the united states, this is about showing that france matters. it is a country that has delusions of grandeur, wants to punch above its weight.
so far, emmanuel macron is doing very well. it is a very different image of france. for the past ten years, france was under a very different presidency. it was very weak and irrelevant. in european politics, it was totally irrelevant. emmanuel macron seems determined to change that. how much does it depend on him delivering domestic reform ? nicolas sarkozy promised it, so did other presidents, and nobody was able to pull it off. that is the question. so far, he is presenting all the reforms that europe has been demanding in terms of labour market reforms, liberalisation and so on. he has the parliamentary majority to approve that legislation. what is going to happen in the streets? it is the streets in france... the irony of britain leaving now is that when the campaign for brexit began, they said, europe is falling apart.
it is crumbling. old europe is not the future. france's dilapidated. now we see a vision where, for one thing, the eu is growing much faster than we are. we are at the back of the line for g7 growth. france and germany look very united and strong. europe has new strength, energy and enthusiasm, we have been left behind. we are the ones who are going to feel like outsiders. a flyover zone will be very important as well. it will be going to germany and paris. a flyover zone will be very important as well. what you say about the streets, it seems far away but it is so important. it is what links to people who are so alike, emmanuel macron and donald trump. they were both elected by amazing disaffection and anger at the grassroots level. if they don't succeed, where is that anger going to go?
this is something that really worries a lot of people. this is notjust friends and the us, it is other countries as well. this pent—up anger against the establishment, against anybody who is on top, is really dangerous. does that affect the leaders we get? if there is this reaction and they've been elected because of the third of disaffection, is there a danger that compromises leadership because they are terrified of getting a similar response, similar anger and rejection? certainly the establishment has crumbled, it is gone. this is a new blood, we don't know yet. emmanuel macron has a better chance, a lot of chances, to lead for us and within europe as well. up for election in september, so... in the case of britain,
i think we will wake up one day, maybe give it three years, when brexit is totally signed off, we will become poorer. people will ask, did we leave europe to become poorer? that is fundamentally... might they also say, looking at the old ways in which european leaders used to behave, they might say, we are poorer, but we are free. freer to do what, exactly? i think it is an illusion. this idea of national sovereignty and the concept that is being used by the brexit peers, it is a nuisance in the real world.
what does it mean to be free and in control of your own destiny, when questions like climate change and even diseases, terrorism, economic growth, questions of technological advancement and so on, they are so dependent on... you couldn't think of a better slogan, ta keback control. everybody, wherever they are, every strata of society and probably around the world, has a sense where everything is out of control, power is always somewhere else. it is not, i can control it. this is called a democracy, i personally cannot control anything. people have lost the notion that democracy is a collect of thing. it is all about me. i'm losing my power. i think we need to get back to a certain amount of basic political education as to what it means to govern collectively. do you think there is
any possibility that a brexit won't happen? i think it's possible, but the time is so short. the changes that might happen within europe that tony blair was talking about, outer circles that we could have stayed within, it is almost too late. if we have a transition that goes on and on, almost indefinitely, where we stay as we are while we continue negotiating... the bill that was published this week, a thousand clauses to be debated, really technical and important things that desperately matter to people's jobs and industries. i think it is a possibility. we spend too much time talking to people like us. i have talked to people who voted brexit and i see no change. people say, i don't want to hear the details. i think it is as likely as impeachment for donald trump. it is possible but it
really does not feel likely at this point. a good reference to drop in. it was just this week in congress they began impeachment proceedings. unlikely to get very far, but after his european tour, donald trump will be back in the capital over the weekend. his big legislative doubt is over the beautiful new healthcare bill that he hopes will replace the affordable care act, the hated, to his base, signature reform of his predecessor. what does this fight over the bill tell us about donald trump's approach to leadership? he was always going to be a different type of leader — to say the least. he was elected, but he really behaves like an oligarch. he is very removed from the levers
and the gears and the mechanism of government. i don't think he could care less about that. with him, so much is personal. this is so much more about obama, obama the person, than it is about the healthcare of the people who might lose their healthcare. so, between, you know, 18 and 20 something million people. it really is so much about obama. but he is very... he is very removed from that. he just wants things to happen because he wants them to happen, therefore they should happen. he gets angry when they don't happen. this is causing serious problems for the people who are actually writing the bill. he, of course, i don't think he wrote the bill. a shocking revelation. again, he isjust not that kind of guy. what's gonna hit the republicans
when that many million people lose their healthca re ? this is what is interesting. we saw it with climate change now with healthcare. local government in united states, the cities, the state government... governors had a meeting this week in boston and the governors are overwhelmingly opposed to this because they are right there. they are down in the dirt with the healthcare bill and all of its repercussions. and so what will happen is that there is huge opposition within the republican party at that level but even in the senate. in the senate you have the moderates who are against it because they don't want all these people to lose healthcare. and then you have the extremists who are against it because theyjust don't think there should be health insurance. it sort of depends where you sit, which
you think is an extremist versus a moderate. ideologically both have a position that your point is you can have a coalition of these interests that can kill it. the hardliners are more likely to bend than the moderates. the moderates are fewer in number. but the thing is, even if something were to come out of the senate, and they have now extended the legislative term so that they could possibly happen, even if they were to happen, it is by far the end of the story. that point that you were making a little earlier about leadership with the establishment in france crumbling, in essence, donald trump's problem if he wants to lead in the direction he wants to take the country is that the establishment in washington still seems very much alive. very much. certainly. there is trouble there. he cannot make a lot of changes.
he is against a huge wall there. the establishment is strong and sound. both parties. the ideas...the establishment finds it all so strange and difficult to deal with the businessman who is still running the white house as a businessman. he has not changed. the man, as we all know, everybody knows, has no policy experience whatsoever. parachuted down into the white house to run the biggest and most important, the most influential country in the world. with the largest economy. we could almost feel sympathetic for him. for the presient? i think he is extremely powerful in a sense that so far the checks of the american constitution on his power have not really worked. i think it is extremely worrying when we see the mixing of his private business interests with family meddling in all areas of american public policy, particularly diplomacy. this is worrying, this is not meant to happen in a democracy and yet the american congress, the two houses, are not saying anything. there is no enquiry, there is no questions. there are enquiries... but there is a normalcy to it. but remember, he has not done anything. his first 100 days have been the most vacant and vacuous, in which nothing has happened.
the checks and balances have worked. he thinks he canjust order whatever he wants and the result is... one thing we do have an enquiry about is the russian connection, if there is one. there are many enquiries into that. we now have it catching his family because his son had a meeting and one of the people at the meeting was apparently a former intelligence agent, possibly a spy. certainly someone involved in soviet intelligence. and, yet, it does not really seem to be affecting his popularity. more than his popularity, he seems to be able to carry on. his children, they are running the business, they are making
statements about american diplomacy. i don't think this is normal. his daughter is still in charge of a business and shows up at g20 meetings. i don't think this is normal. this is not normal. he is the most unpopular president for this period of time in memory. but the frustration that you are expressing is that it does not seem to matter. his so—called base seems to be about 40%, sometimes it dips a little lower. the problem is until the republican legislators believe their own seats are threatened by donald trump, they are too afraid to move. so until the midterm elections next year? is that the earliest chance? or in the run—up to because people begin running early, as you know. so they have to make assumptions, they have to make plans based on how they think things are going. if they are going badly, then that... because you have one third of senators and all of the congress. every congressman, exactly.
i began the programme talking about al—abadi waving the iraqi flag in mosul. in one sense you would think his task of leadership is easy. he had a victory, that would give him a boost. is it as straightforward as that? certainly not. no doubt he has got the right to say and do what he really wants but issue is much more complicated than he is trying to portray. certainly the islamic state has been defeated in iraq, no doubt...in mosul, not iraq. but this is necessary, to do that. but is it sufficient? is it the only thing you need to do in iraq? not to mention syria, of course. so iraq itself has got, on that front, a step forward. but the biggest problem now starts in iraq, which is how to rebuild and rehabilitate, politically. not socially, economically, no.
politically, that is. we have a new militia that took part in the liberation of mosul. they need something to do. they demand a political part. they are the popular mobilisation force, they are iranian revolutionary guard—inspired. a shia militia. they are demanding a political part to play in deciding the future of the country. do you think there is something quite important around the world that the idea of the caliphate has kind of fallen with mosul? the romance of it that drew in people from all over the place. the idea that there was a place and this was the perfect islamic state that would eventually grow and take over the whole of the world.
don't you think the force of that has gone in terms of recruitment? oh, yes. certainly. i think the idea of caliphate had been beefed up, either deliberately or unnecessarily. it had no future, right from day one, no doubt about it. don't forget, the vast majority of daesh recruits are non—arabs. they come from abroad. they are mostly european, which is strange. you have no future with such a force within an arab environment. the further away you are from, the more romantic it may seem. and it is a different kind,
terrible to say, but for a time at least it was a more effective leadership in terms of rallying than some of our own leadership. it was. and i think that is why the coalition that helped iraq to defeat daesh have been critical of amnesty international report on all the abuses committed against the daesh recruits. for propaganda purposes it is important to show to any, to anyone who may be attracted by the romance of the caliphate that they can have a pretty dramatic, pretty horrific end at the hands of the iraqi army. hopefully, in that sense, that kind of propaganda works but i think we have not seen the end of daesh in the region. i think there is still quite a lot of work to do, still, even in iraq. any reasons to be hopeful? yes, yes.
there are reasons to be hopeful. on mosul i think we're going to find out that some horrendous things happened there and i think it will make all of us feel very, very queasy. but, yes, there is no doubt that on balance this feels like hope. thank you very much to all of you for being with us. thank you as well forjoining us for the programme. we return at the same time next week. from all of us here, goodbye. hello there.
some real ups and downs in the week ahead, but firstly up, because we will see a lot of sunshine on monday. some showers, and the wind is quite blustery in northern scotland. a lovely bit of high cloud in parts of the south, turning hazy. essentially, blue skies are the order of the day. temperatures up to 23 degrees in aberdeen and belfast, could get up to 26 in the south—east. as we head through monday night into the early hours of tuesday, staying quiet and fine. some clear spells. the odd patch of fog here and there. a muggy night in the south, cooler up towards the north—east. on tuesday, a lot of dry weather. some spots getting close to 30 degrees.
some thunderstorms creeping in from the south, becoming more widespread during tuesday night and wednesday. as they clear away, things turning much cooler and fresher for the end of the week. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. my name is duncan golestani. our top stories: a woman is shot dead and three injured while waiting to vote in an unofficial referendum on venezuela's constitution. horsemeat scandal — police in spain accuse an organised crime group of trading meat across europe that's unfit for humans. swiss tennis star roger federer makes history by taking a record eighth wimbledon single's men's title. and for all you time lord fans — time to meet the first actress to take on the role of doctor who.