in las vegas. marcus hutchins is facing unrelated charges involving banking malware. an bbc news, it's time for hardtalk this summer has that given iraqisa hardtalk this summer has that given iraqis a glimmer of hope amid all the darkness that has enveloped the country. mosul has been liberated from the so—called caliphate of islamic state and it is shrinking fast, but will any semblance of unity and stability followed? my guest is the veteran vice president of iraq. does iraqi have a viable future? ayad allawi, welcome to hardtalk

let's begin with the fallout from iraqi's national army victory over so—called islamic state in mosul. hyderabad even claimed it as a great victory for iraq. there was a sense of triumphalism in his voice. are you feeling triumphant today? not really. it was not like winning the war. we want to win the war against extremism and terrorism, and mosul of course was a good achievement, but indeed we have not to lose sight

of the people of mosul, what their stea dfastness of the people of mosul, what their steadfastness did, and what the international community did, including the united kingdom and america and australia and so on. what we want to achieve really, and this is not the end of the story — i wa nt this is not the end of the story — i want hyderabad e, i want the president, we want to win the war, and that should be done by abolishing extremism as a whole from society and this can only be done by having an inclusive political process and having a quality among the people of iraq. just to stick with the military situation for a second, i saw one of the leaders of the iraqi armed forces in most of the iraqi armed forces in most of the other day, telling them that he thought his people would take another town within is control

within days, and it seems the military has a sense they can eradicate the caliphate on iraqi soil, but you seem to be saying it's not as simple as that. i don't think we are going to save the end of isis at all. it will be with us for a long time, not only through iraq, but spreading already — reaching thailand and the philippines is twits, and to europe westwards. but, in iraq, you are suggesting they will change territory, they won't hold territory so much as conduct an underground insurgency. no, but the insurgency, they will perform insurgencies and embark on insurgencies, and asserting that the terrorist activities or explosions, killings and assassinations. so that's why i say we need to win the

warand that's why i say we need to win the war and the battles. one aspect of iraqi's approach to the mosul conflict and the wider struggle against is is the allegation from many quarters, not least inside iraq, for example, from the kurdish leaders, that, with the focus on the military struggle, the iraqi government has consistently failed to prepare for the post— battle political and humanitarian settlement. absolutely correct. but you are part of that government.” was the first one to say this. that neither the humanitarian aspect was respected and treated well, nor the fa ct respected and treated well, nor the fact that, looking beyond the military activities, the political horizon of what should happen — this has not happened in these two areas, and i've told haider al—abadi, by

the way. let's talk humanitarian activities and basic human rights. i'm sure you have seen the shocking videos of what appear to be iraqi forces executing men — we don't know who they are — in mosul after the end of the conflict. we've seen one graphic video of an individual being thrown off the cliff and shot. how can the iraqi government allow this to happen, given the history of iraq over the last 15 years? because this plays into more extremism. of course, this has gone out of the hands of the government. this has gone into militias and the loyalist people, and the government, which is unable to control this situation in mosul. this is why i referred to the collateral damage that has been happening. let alone that i have witnessed and seen myself people

living, displaced people, living really beneath what animals live in in iraq. the un is saying the humanitarian crisis in and around mosul today is so crisis in and around mosul today is so pressing... it's a ticking bomb. this is one of the ticking bombs that will explode in our face this is one of the ticking bombs that will explode in ourface in this is one of the ticking bombs that will explode in our face in the future, i assure you. there are thousands of children right now whether parents, without families, coming out of rooms in mosul, and nobody, it seems, has a clue what to do with them. no, no. people are quite bitter, especially people living in tents who are refusing to go back to mosul, whose parents have been destroyed in the conflict, and this will only increase with time. this is what nobody looked at. the

humanitarian side. i keep reminding myself you are the vice president of the country. you might tell me it's meaningless, that you are simply a figurehead, but alternatively, what on earth are you doing about it? because your government needs to be held to account. of course, i agree, and i've raised this issue, and with the prime minister and the president of course, and i've been raising this issue in the media and the meetings, but nothing has happened. they say the military conflict should reject presidents at the end of the conflict, but the humanitarian issue is really very violent, and what may happen on the horizon in the future is unknown. we've been talking for very few minutes and every aspect of what we discussed in mosul, you seem to be

saying the government you represent as vice president is incapable of imposing its will and authority, and it is stoking the flames of a conflict, which, even though we've just seen mosul, quote, unquote, liberated, in your view it's going to get worse. well, they don't want to see the reality, the government, they don't want to see the humanitarian side, although they speak about it. and they don't want to see the political side. but i am getting a feeling that you are pretty powerless in this situation. on the bigger picture, that of the militias and, indeed, the popular mobilisation forces as well, we know that five of the largest of the popular mobilisation forces, including the badr brigade, for example, they receive support, money and direct assistance from tehran. now, what should be done about that? well, iran has always been a problem for iraq. and i want since a long time ago that iran is moving gradually, systematically to controlling the situation in iraq. you know, let me explain one thing which is very important. the vice presidents,

the presidents, the president, do not have any executive powers. i am getting that feeling during this interview... it's more or less of a protocol. yes. and ijoined them because of the reconciliation process, which was undermined. to be blunt about it, you are there as a figleaf. yes, yes, yes. and a somewhat useful figleaf for the government. as long as you sit as vice president, you are giving some sort of credibility to a government which you appear to be saying is, in essence, right now being run by the iranians. not run completely by the iranians but iran is making the macro and micro decisions. the macro decisions started in 2010 when we won the elections

and the united states sided with the iranians then. what, you think the us and iran ensured that you, even though your coalition actually won the most seats, you didn't take power, and you're saying it was the combination of the united states and iran...? i made it clear that it would run against allawi, and the americans were with this and this was conveyed to us of course by biden, the vice president of the united states, that we are not ready to accept that, that iran will intervene in iraq and we are going to pull out from iraq, so we will have to toe the rope with iran. i mean, prime ministeral maliki seemed close with tehran. it always seemed prime minister al abadi was somewhat less beholden to iran. he is, yes, absolutely,

but he is overpowered. by? by iranian forces. for example, qasem soleimani, who is sometimes seen on iraqi territory, he spends a great deal of time strategically planning iran's role. even tactically. we are talking about the commander of the revolutionary forces in iran. he spends more time in iraq and in iran. the more you tell me about what is happening in your country today as you see it, the more i am thinking that any talk of mosul‘s liberation being a watershed moment, something iraqis can hold onto as a sign that things are going to and get better, it is wrong. i don't see this happening personally. i called for political resolutions. that will lead to equality in iraq.

i call that they should stop bifercation, which is happening these days. they should really take care of the displaced. they should stop the... i spoke to the leaders of the the liberation, by the way, and i told them that the only person eligible is those who joined the army and the police. iraq should not have two parallel armies, both for the mobilisation and in the ordinary army and police. and i told this to abadi and i said this to the media. but we don't have executive powers. even the president doesn't have executive powers. this is contrary to the constitution, by the way. the constitution says that the president, the presidency, should oversee the implementation of the constitution. if you are so concerned about these threats to unity in iraq,

and the preponderance of militias and mobilisation units in the end represent sectarian forces inside your country, why oh why have you in recent weeks decided to throw in your lot politically with muqtada al—sadr, one of the firebrand members of the political situation? no, no, i neversigned any political deal. but we are trying to explore who is closest to us in terms of the basic issues in iraq. and so far he is the closest as far as the quality, as far as anti— sectarian, as far as attacking iran. but forgive me, muqtada al—sadr is trusted by no one in the sunni community and now you appear

with your party and your coalition intent on using him to try to win power in the next iraqi election. it is opportunism. .. no, no, no. i haven't signed any agreement with him, believe me. i am saying this on tv, open tv. i haven't signed any agreement. we are talking to all parties in iraq, sunni, shia, baathist — believe me, we want to forge any kind of coalition ultimately. we don't feel now is the time for coalitions and definitely i don't feel that i am ready to force agreements and coalition with any sectarian force at all. i am secular. i am against sectarianism. i am against this and i am not going to move away from this position at all. let's's talk about the kurds.

the kurdish regional area. injust a month or so, september 25, we are going to see a referendum organised by the ruler of the kurdish region. yes or no to kurdish independence. it is predicted that the kurdish people are going to vote yes. what impact will that have on iraq's chances of staying as a unitary state ? it would be dismantled completely. that is why i spoke to some of those in kurdistan who i am going to see once i get back to iraq.

i think the referendum is pretty much sure. the dismemberment of iraq would makes the kurds the losers in this case. do you believe that this referendum could hasten a future conflict between the baghdad government... yes, it will, i am sure. even the regional governments and the kurds. you mean war? well, conflict... taking it step—by—step. there will be conflict. i don't think any of the regions will acknowledge this. neither iran or turkey... it has been conveyed to me that iran is putting pressure, this was discussed last week, iran is putting a lot of pressure on the kurds, because they don't accept what is happening. the iranians, let alone the kurds...

your message to the kurds is, be careful what you wish for? yes, and rationalise even the question. this is very important. self—determination is something in the unity of iraq. complete independence from iraq is something else. so really, the wording of the questions should be very clear. one factor we have... this is what the iraqi government should focus on when they talk to him on this issue. the referendum has to take place. they cannot run away from this. but there is another way of rationalising the issue of the referendum in the questioning. the statement that should come out on

this issue of the referendum, if they continue this is to separate iraq and dismember kurdistan, this is going to be very bad for everybody in the region, not only iraq. this is the promises that have been laid down, i am not blaming anybody, but the superpowers, including the united states, have a causative hand in this, when they occupied iraq and dismantled... not only saddam hussein, but the whole country. i was going to ask you about the united states. one factor we have not discussed is the role of the united states. president trump, for the last six months in power in washington... do you believe the americans are actually understanding just how dangerous the situation in iraq is? i don't think they are understanding, i don't think they want to understand.

i think even in their conflict on isis, they were only thinking on the military side of things. they wouldn't even look at how to prepare for post—isis, what to do what to do in mosul and elsewhere. america have a very distinct imagination for the greater middle east area. not only iraq. donald trump has made it plain that as far as he is concerned, his primary focus and responsibility is to destroy so—called islamic state and protect america from terrorism in iraq, in syria, and that is, beyond all else, his objective. fine, we don't dispute this. and political, as well as... to take care of iraq and the future of iraq, because after all,

they hold legal responsibility when they dismantle the country. abolish the army... iraqis wanted us forces out, obama withdrew all forces in 2011. do you think american forces need to come back? no, no, i am not suggesting this. i am suggesting that the united states should have clear policies on what to do with iraq and they need to advise the iraqi government because they have a moral obligation to do so. they have a legal obligation to do so. they are currently fighting in iraq, fighting isis, defending the united states and the world, but iraq is the theatre for this conflict. they need to be more careful and more clearly with the moral as well as the other obligations. talking about the moral obligations, your vice—president... have you met donald trump? not yet. you said not long ago, there is a vacuum in the overall

leadership in the world. clearly pointing a finger at the americans. yes. you said the americans need to get back to their role as the international power. yes. i agree with this statement. you feel that donald trump... not using the military, but to exercise their political role as well as the military role. they are lost. there is a vacuum in the leadership. in world leadership. there is nothing. in the end, you can't blame anybody else for the parlous state of iraq today. but yes... you and your generation... i just want to develop this thought. we have spoken several times and it seems your generation of iraq, the post—saddam generation of iraqi leaders, have failed to deliver stability, unity and the most basic security to the people of your country.

i agree, and this is not because of the fault of politicians only. it is the dismantlement of the state, the institutions of the state of iraq that happened with occupation. we are paying the price now. not only saddam was overthrown, but the state of iraq, the institutions, were overthrown. the army, the security, the intelligence. the judiciary through the process of political... politicising the ba'athification. there was a vacuum in iraq. we first spoke many years ago, and i wonder if we speak again in ten years, you actually believe iraq as we know it today will exist. we have talked about your belief that is is not eradicated and that the struggle will continue, and the terror and the violence. we have talked about the kurds and your belief that there could be

a conflict looming with the kurdish in the north of your country. yes. iraq doesn't seem to have a viable future. for now, as a sense, but it is also something that is changing in iraq. the dynamics and movement of the people. talking to the clerics of the shia and sunni, they are calling for a civic state, for dismantling sectarianism and moving towards an equal citizenship. that's talk, and the reality on the ground is that the sectarian militia, popular mobilisation forces, these are the guys... on the other hand, the clerics are aware, this was due to be mobilisation of people, millions went to the streets. this is change. this is very, very clear change. but the government is trying

to impose these popular organisations. also other issues are not being taken into account. but the mood of the populace has changed in iraq. this is what we should encourage. ayad allawi, we have to end there, but thank you very much. thank you. hello, once again. this sphere is beginning to get a bit overworked. it's been one of those weeks. the reason? that area of low pressure has been thereabouts across the british isles for much of the past week. there are signs of a change, but it's going to be oh so slow. feeling that way across northern scotland from the word go. showers, if not longer spells of rain. that's not the only area.

coming away to the opposite end of the country, showers running in up the bristol channel, getting into the northern half of devon and cornwall, up to bristol. another feed coming in from the channel itself, away towards the kent and sussex coasts. further north, some dry weather across the east midlands, east anglia, and the rest of the south—east, but generally speaking, the further north you go, the cloud fills in and some of those showers become ever more persistent. that will be the way of it for a good part of the morning across the north—east of scotland. even here, that cloud will begin to break into lunchtime and the early afternoon. and the wind is not as much of a feature across the british isles through friday, as was the case for some of you on thursday. with that combination, less of a breeze, more in the way of sunshine and fewer showers, 22—23. we won't get to those lofty heights and i don't think anyone will shoot another 64 at kingsbarn, in fife. the rain won't be persistent,

but it could be heavy at times, as it could be over the eastern borders and the north—east of england. some of those showers in the afternoon quite punchy. through the evening and overnight, keeping the showers going across northern and western parts. you're at your driest perhaps through central and eastern areas. here we are into the weekend. that low pressure now dominant over scandinavia. a little ridge of high pressure trying to settle things down, and it will do across the southern counties of england and wales. but further north, east anglia, lincolnshire, there will be showers again. again, not too much in the way of a breeze, but it will be noticeable. temperatures really nothing spectacular for this time of year. that little ridge of high pressure that will have killed off some but not all of the showers and will make for a chilly start

to sunday underneath clear skies. which, sadly, will fill in rapidly across western scotland and northern ireland too, with rain here moving in for the afternoon. generally speaking, the further south and east you are, the drier your day will be. eventually, come monday, what is left of that front will gradually stagger its way to the south—eastern quarter of the british isles. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. our top stories: police in australia allege that two men accused of planning a terror plot targeted an etihad airways flight. we will be alleging in court that a fully functioning ied was to be placed on that plane on the 15th of july. more pressure on president trump as a grand jury is set up to investigate allegations of russian interference in last in last year's elections. a british computer expert who helped stop a worldwide cyber attack has been arrested by the fbi for alleged

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