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tv   Dateline London  BBC News  February 18, 2018 2:30am-3:01am GMT

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this is bbc news. the headlines — thousands of people in florida have taken part in a rally to demand tighter us gun controls. the event took place a short distance from the school where a former student, nikolas cruz, killed 17 people. there was strong criticism of president trump, for his refusal to consider new firearms restrictions. the us national security adviser says it's time the world held the syrian government accountable for its use of chemical weapons. hr mcmaster says reports and photos clearly show such weapons are being deployed. the syrian government has always denied using chemical weapons. the mexican defence secretary, salvador cienfuegos, has apologised for a helicopter accident that killed fourteen people on friday in the southern state of oaxaca. the military helicopter was carrying two senior mexican politicians to the area, which had been hit by a 7.2—magnitude earthquake. now on bbc news, dateline london. fellow and a very warm welcome to
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dateline london. this week we are discussing a british plea on european security, south africa afterjacob zuma and the continuing absence of a government for northern ireland. my guests this week polly toynbee, doctor vincent mccombie, brian o'connell and thomas killinger. welcome to you all. our first story, the british prime minister has urged the european union to sign up to a security
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treaty to ensure that co—operation continues after britain leaves. addressing the security conference, she warned that if the eu's aim in the brexit talks was to avoid corporation, then the security of all would be damaged. if the eu's aim is to avoid co—operation, thomas, what do you make of that language? i have long given up to try to ferret what goes on with our leaders in this phrase is totally puzzling because she seems to hold hostage the british security to the outcome of the brexit talks and she is in no way to speak the language. she needs to work forflexibility, way to speak the language. she needs to work for flexibility, for corporation and any intimation of trying to demand something or else is totally misplaced. she is on a very sticky wicket as we know and there is no consensus. we are still waiting for what the british people really wa nt, waiting for what the british people really want, british government, rather. she is not frustrated but
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curious. all else should be immaterial on the huge overriding issue, will we get a mutually agreeable agreement on the brexit conditions? until that has been sorted out, nowhere for her to threaten british co—operation, europe. besides, the whole speech is beside the point. it isa beside the point. it is a distraction? it is a distraction, absolutely. and cart before the horse. very much so. and cart before the horse. very much so. defence and military issues are her best cart because britain is deeply involved, but that is uncontroversial. we need some of the a nswe i’s. uncontroversial. we need some of the answers. she is talking about issues which at the moment are not believe that all mind of what needs to be done. let's open that out. polly, the message that the uk is a big
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contributor to defence in europe and has a lot of expertise in counterterror, i suppose she is trained to play to her strengths. security should not be what —— should be what is easiest because of even the most extreme want to have a strong security interpol relationship with the rest of europe and there is no doubt about that. even there, she managed to throw a bit of a spanner in the works and accused them of being ideological, and then they are so pragmatic compared to us, the whole brexit conundrum is about british ideology, and to accuse, particularly in the context of security, to accuse angela merkel and the europeans of this is an absurdity and it bodes very ill. to be fair, she only said if, if. she didn't say they were ideological. if. has she come in this speech, said, which she might have done, that she is willing to accept the
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european court of justice that she is willing to accept the european court ofjustice as an arbitrator on a treaty over security? and that is a step forward. it crosses her redline if she doesn't accept that, it is not going to happen. she has to accept with any treaty or any issue that there is always an international adjudicator on any trade deal wherever in the world. in europe, it happens to be the ec] and she has to swallow that. brian o'connell is another european looking in on this. you think the european arrest warrant, few think poll, all of that can be really taken for granted, hanging fruit? we should be able to take it for granted. security is paramount above trade and everything else. the tone of the remarks are probably betrays the level to which this relationship between britain and the eu counterparts in this negotiation have reached, really, really poor. as polly says, you have to have an
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independent arbitrator and probably would be the ec], and if it crosses a redline, ithink would be the ec], and if it crosses a redline, i think she would be the ec], and if it crosses a redline, ithink she is would be the ec], and if it crosses a redline, i think she is going to have to suck it up in the end, to be perfectly honest. she has no choice because you cannot go into brexit without some form of deal on extradition, basic things like that, oi'i extradition, basic things like that, on cyber and also other things. they are going to talk to each other a nyway are going to talk to each other anyway whether or not there is a deal. the tone is very illustrative of where things are at the moment. i want to hear from vincent ford was your specialism is a different continent, a very compact patchwork security, economics, politics. as an outsider looking at this, what do you made of this? iaman you made of this? i am an outsider but it bothers me what happens. i think we shouldn't be surprised at all and we are going to hear a loss of this. these are mind games. i pity theresa may because she is like a tool that is
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being used by both sides. one day she says something to appease the remainder and another day she will say something to appease the brexiteers. for example, right now, is hardline brexit. which sometimes the europeans, they are uncompromising. she has to be careful because we are talking about real lives, the whole country get out of europe and needs to be friendly and work with europe afterwards. so if one of these days she canjust afterwards. so if one of these days she can just over say things that can end up giving britain a very bad deal. thomas, another thing we have seen in the past week was borisjohnson, the foreign secretary, beginning a series of speeches we now expect from british government ministers. to that gave —— go some way to healing? lam afraid healing? i am afraid not. there was a basic condition of speech where remainders have legitimate concerns, but before
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he came to that phrase of the speech, he said it would be a betrayal if we reversed the decision and there is no way we can go anywhere else. he was quite adamant that his offer to be nice to the remainders sounded false. basically, the brexiteers are still in denial of the real problem is that they face and everyone is using a bit of words that eventually will not prevail anyway. we are in a moment where we have a hard time taking any of this very seriously. all lot are what you said is probably from home consumption anyway. outcome will be a fudge will stop borisjohnson had the political committee of his lifetime. if he really wanted to show he was leadership material. you started off by saying, i want to reach out. i understand the grief and the pain of the 48%, nearly half the country,
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and then give them nothing. it was ha rd and then give them nothing. it was hard brexit all the way through. absolutely no ecj. not a mention of either, and no detail on anything. we will come back to ireland in a moment. i want to go to an entirely different continent and look at issues of south africa over the week, because after what seems like days of prevarication, jacobs finally resigned as south africa's president last week, saying he still didn't understand what he had done wrong. cyril ramaphosa now takes over a country with huge problems to solve. vincent, you watch these events closely, he watched cyril ramaphosa closely. is he the man to deal with the enormous challenges that south africa now faces? he is, but he also may not be. that is the best way to say. there are two matt kingsley. of course, for the question itself, you need to see in two ways. one, what is it for south africa? the other is what are
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the applications for africa ? south africa? the other is what are the applications for africa? in south africa, he is not a millionaire, he is somebody who came from the work of background, he has worked with western business, capitalists and succeeded. he needs to radically reshape his own attitudes towards what involvement, what economic growth is in a country like south africa. does he have a plan? he has a plan to develop, according to capitalist ideas, but you can have a plan to share that wealth for the 90% or so of people in south africa. if he doesn't, south africa isjust of people in south africa. if he doesn't, south africa is just on a volcano. the other side, the other bit, for me thomas south africa is a democracy, we admire it, they will sort out a lot of problems will stop its invitation for africa. look, i
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come from uganda and i belong to a pro—democracy group called free uganda. i struggle to get democracy in our country. our leader was in power for 35 years, changing constitutions. now, if uganda, if saddam, —— sudan, trump uses a very horrible word to describe them, if we can learn from south africa about how democracy can help us resolve all problems, it would be so good because what is, all this time, to step away so we can build country. so the example of south africa needs to succeed in order to provide something for the rest? it doesn't succeed, we as you from other countries, we are watching very carefully and we are telling people that look, next is you. if
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you don't, and we don't have a gimmick graphic —— democratic society, we are going back to the civil war zone and battles and things of the past. let's open it out. brian, i don't know what you make of events in south africa in the past week, but we have the anc in a very interesting position. damaged its legitimacy in question and yet go forward to elections. i saw the tv pictures of parliament yesterday when he made his speech, his state of the union address, and there was a feeling of such support and everything. i thought that was incredible because i didn't think that when this final sort of weak or two began, that he was going to be able to shift jacob zuma. he was very influential. you know the game we have a pile of
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six and you have to pull out without the rest collapsing, it was a bit like that. it is an amazing thing to get to, i think, where like that. it is an amazing thing to get to, ithink, where he like that. it is an amazing thing to get to, i think, where he did without a drop of blood being spilt so without a drop of blood being spilt so far. but he needs to be a mediator between the political classes of leaders, but between the political classes and the people. classes of leaders, but between the political classes and the peoplem he can resolve... there is so much hope invested. if you think most of the world will first have seen cyril ramaphosa when he held the microphone for nelson mandela as he came out, made his first speech as he came out ofjail, and that is a moment, you know, anybody who was alive at the time remembers and he is now they're as the man carrying the beacon for mandela rhythm and the beacon for mandela rhythm and the question is whether he can rekindle that. i must say that these,in rekindle that. i must say that these, in his track record, the miners, he was one of the directors
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of the company, and he took the side of the company, and he took the side of the company, and he took the side of the employers. he did apologise for that later. he apologised, of the employers. he did apologise forthat later. he apologised, but he isa forthat later. he apologised, but he is a political leader and he should have known better. now he is the president of south africa. whose side is he going to be on? the miners, the business... thomas, your a nswer to miners, the business... thomas, your answer to those questions? when he held the microphone for mandela, it leads me to think that the future of south africa rests as much with what happens to the anc, they are essentially are linked, we need to see whether there is a possibility of the emergence of a new opposition party... that matters because as we know, so you need a significant opposition. i think the anc by itself will try its best to clean out the stables as it were, but you
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still need a second to force the country. it is very difficult in south africa's case because so much rests on the mythological sort of charisma of anc, it is very hard to replace that. if they mess up this one, within ten years, we will get a shift of power. they are not strong enough to take power. they could opportunistically combine their forces and it will be in a very difficult position. is that going to happen? that would strategically make sense. it depends what ramaphosa does. if he develops south africa at the way he develops his business to succeed, but then radically share that wealth with the rest of the country, south africa would be better than britain. it is shocking that the growth rate is only 1% from one of the country that was seen as one of the great powerhouses. unless he can do that and you say there is division as to
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whether he helps the workers but actually he has to do both, capitalists too to generate the wealth as well is redistribute it. in the state of the union message the word was accountability. if he is as good as his word, he will be accountable to the people, to the international watches and to political elite in his country and it isa political elite in his country and it is a very important word, accountability is everything in a democracy and we will see if he is as good as his word. we will leave south africa now but take the word accountability into the next story because northern ireland has been without its devolved government for i3 without its devolved government for 13 months now. does this matter? talks between the two largest parties, the democratic unionist party and sinn fein to restore the status quo have broken down. westminster is the 10th to bring back direct rule, so what next? brian, how serious is this political mess? i think it is very serious. i
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think it is more serious than the press attention it has received in british media, anyway. it could not have happened at a worse time, given what we were talking about earlier thatis what we were talking about earlier that is coming down the pipelines regards that. —— brexit. but where do they go from here in the next... what was the problem, they got so close as we understand it. what the talks fell to pieces over was an irish language act which sinn fein had been asking for four years. it goes way back to the 2006 agreement and it is really about not who speaks irish but it is about recognition of the irish language on the same level as english. in northern ireland. i mean, when you think about some of the enormous challenges that these two parties have overcome in the last 20 years
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to get where we are today it is astonishing in a way to those you don't follow it daily to think that we could fall down over an issue of language. i mean, people have been comparing it to the scotland on which act, but northern ireland is different. it goes back to the good friday agreement in 1998 where they talk about parity of esteem and one of the shibboleths that is the recognition of the irish language, and scots gaelic as well as unionist. there was a deal on the table between the dup and sinn fein. ultimately, arlene foster the dup lino couldn't sell it to her grassroots because they were afraid of things like roadsigns in two languages and quotas for civil serva nts languages and quotas for civil servants seeking irish which michelle o'neill her counterpart in sinn fein on the other side of the table said well, the draft agreement doesn't even have that in it. it is
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a question of trust and misunderstanding but will they get there? they will come back to this, they have to, because they cannot move forward, sinn fein will not allow power—sharing to move forward until it is... personalities in a way because... i was wondering, yeah... i think not, way because... i was wondering, yeah... ithink not, ithink way because... i was wondering, yeah... i think not, i think the problem is that it isn't clear that it is in either of the interest to run the province. in a time of extreme posterity, why do they want to be responsible for schools, hospitals, all of the everyday drudgery, which it is, to run a devolved government under westminster, where westminster has tightened the screw to such an extent you get nothing but blame? so there isn't really an incentive for either of them to want to govern. mr blame to the breakdown of negotiations? who is coming to northern ireland? whose fault is it? the dup or sinn fein? you could say
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the dup because it raises questions about arlene foster's ability to run her party. that is what i said, perhaps the personality issue. you can also say that sinn fein, but you know, they shouldn't maybe make such a thing of it and everything else but it is important that the irish language act is important that this is the thing, to go back to what you say, the dup want direct rule because they can then tell the tory government at westminster what to do, with a direct rule, but sinn feini do, with a direct rule, but sinn fein i think c in brexit the best chance they've had in a generation to push the united ireland agenda in all... said there are much bigger forces in play than the irish... also the big issue of ireland because ireland and brexit... if the irish don't get what they need to get. from these things in northern ireland. come back to that in a second but i want to pick a pollie's point because you say maybe neither side actually want to be ruling
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right now in devolved assembly but where does that leave the british government because bradley the secretary says you consider the option this weekend but what are the options? she will have to take control. there is no other option. they have to do more less what the says because the dup is popping up theresa may's government. we have to rememberabout theresa may's government. we have to remember about the theresa may's government. we have to rememberabout the dup theresa may's government. we have to remember about the dup that two thirds of its members are these extreme free presbyterians, the paisley founded cults, and cult is a strong language, i tend to return to religions in general as cults. as long as you are a the board because of the time but for otherwise would be blame on this. it is the largest party in northern ireland. it is that only 0.6% of people in northern ireland are actually free press —— free presbyterians survey to —— so they do represent something extreme. we have ended up with the two most
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extreme parties don't represent in all in what people actually feel and where they stand. it is a misrepresentation of the real state of being. very interesting and what is so interesting as well in terms of the african angle is of course are the pros who we were just talking about once played a role in bringing sides together and inspecting ira arms dumps so is there a role for outsiders at this point you think? i do think people have any opportunity. i'm not talking about him but is there room foran talking about him but is there room for an irish talking about him but is there room foran irish —— talking about him but is there room for an irish —— for an outsider in the irish question? in terms of britain and the want it is dying down but as i say more than ireland will be a matter of it and as an african i want to say something much more antagonistic. please do. look, in africa, since independence and before, the whole idea of our survival has always been fighting for our independence. and whether we
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had this peace process in northern ireland, which people mechanically together to sort of run it together still within their kingdom, many africans always had, whenever i talk about northern ireland, they ask me why doesn't britainjust about northern ireland, they ask me why doesn't britain just leave northern ireland to go back to ireland and become an independent country as part of ireland? i have never understood why not because thatis never understood why not because that is a question... history. history is what rules... crosstalk. the rule is democracy and if they voted tojoin the the rule is democracy and if they voted to join the rest of ireland would be out in a flash. it is a majority in northern ireland i can sense, dave. crosstalk.. defined by history because other people are out there. to make a majority. i'm not quite sure the south of ireland would be. crosstalk. we have been there and i'm glad we went there but 110w there and i'm glad we went there but now we need, but that isn't a
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viewpoint which is going to stop the current situation, i guess, and it isn't a viewpoint that is one of those of the current players. no, it is very much a viewpoint that is held by sinn fein. they always keep saying we stopped the fight but we haven't stopped our struggle to independence. the most important part, the most important part of the good friday agreement was the south of ireland gave up in its constitution its demand and expectation that the north should join with the south. and that was a very important meeting of the peace. yeah, i know. around this table, we will all agree it is a democratic process ? will all agree it is a democratic process? it is, and it is apiece, but i am reminding people we need to think of the future that might... wing—back to the paralysis of the democratic process now, thomas...m you hand back direct rule to westminster, that is the end of devolution. what is devolution
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about? self government, regional government. if the parties concerned in northern ireland find themselves unable to do that, what is the future of devolution in northern ireland? i think the british government would be very, very, very belike don't to go back to direct rule —— reluctant to go back to direct rule. the irish government, massive pressure, and at the moment, relations between the british and irish government are fixed on the whole issue of the border and the regulatory alignment and all that kind of thing and the customs union andi kind of thing and the customs union and i don't think they will want to put direct rule in on top of it all. but is there enough but the end of it, there is no direct rule. they will go back to, they will leave it for a few weeks and come back to the talks again and see if they can get some kind of agreement. crosstalk.. the whole thing, the whole thing hanging over this, the breakup of
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his talks is the issue of the border. that is coming down the pipe sophos now about you know, one wonders whether they can get an agreement before the brexit thing happens. i wonder, agreement before the brexit thing happens. iwonder, yeah. the irish government is absolutely adamant that the deal they came to last december about regulatory alignment, you know, having sort of — if britain wants to leave the customs union and the eu they will still have to have some form of it to get the border open and they are adamant about that and that is number one priority over dublin at the moment. that takes us back to the beginning which is actually where we have the a nswer which is actually where we have the answer thank you all so much to us today and that's all we have time for this week. dojoin today and that's all we have time for this week. do join us again next week, same time, same place, but for now, thank you for watching. goodbye.
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i hope you make the most of yesterday's sunshine because it is going to be in short supply today. look out into the atlantic and this is where the weather is coming from, filling in with cloud and the cloud will push its weight eastwards today, it has already arrived across the south—western areas of the uk, it is pretty cold though in the morning to scotland and the eastern side of england and some patches of fog slowly lifting, brighter skies for a while but the best of a sometime will be in north—east scotland, cladding over in many areas in the afternoon especially towards the west we will see more rain and bristle by publicity is coming to be mild with temperatures ten or 11 degrees, a little cooler where it is brighter towards the north—east of the uk. through this evening and overnight, we find this rain and drizzle pushing its weight eastwards, it will be accompanied by a misty, murky weather over the
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hills. not a great deal of rain as it pushes eastwards that there will bea it pushes eastwards that there will be a lot of cloud around so much milder. no frost on monday morning, lows of around five or six celsius. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. my name is nkem ifejika — our top stories: tough words for some us leaders — students from the school targeted in a mass shooting, demand tighter gun controls. if all our government and president can do is send thoughts and prayers, then it is for the victims to be the change we need to see. president trump's national security adviser accuses the syrian government of using chemical weapons, and demands action from global leaders. thousands turn out to show their respects in zimbabwe — as the body of opposition leader morgan tsvangira returns home. also in the programme — can you see anything unusual about this picasso? we'll uncover the mystery hiding behind the masterpiece.
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