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tv   BBC News  BBC News  November 19, 2019 9:00pm-9:31pm GMT

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would be no—deal now and no—deal in the future. one other area i think which was very interesting was on the nhs, because borisjohnson, even before the question was formally asked, wanted to make it absolutely clear that the nhs wouldn't be up for a trade deal, are vulnerable any trade deal with united states. equally, jeremy corbyn was waving a document around saying it was at risk. any sense, they are both clashing on very familiar territory. i don't think there was a clear winner, there is going to be a snap poll, so we will see what the wider public thing. at the moment i am joined by michael gove, the conservative government mrs nair, and and requiring of the labour party. let's start with firstly. you are consistently behind in the polls since the election started, and corbyn was very familiar with his own familiar areas. but did he break
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through and create an ointment that will connect with the wider public? i think you did because what we are saying is that on the 13th of december as saying is that on the 13th of decemberas an end saying is that on the 13th of december as an end to austerity, we invest in our communities and create that better, bigger and more equal britain after ten years of tory cuts, after ten years of devastation to many communities. you're sounding more passionate than jeremy to many communities. you're sounding more passionate thanjeremy corbyn did tonight. on the straight question... investing in education and making this country a better place, because it can be a better place. on the question he was asked several times, six times by boris johnson, would he leave or remain... ten times. he was asked several times would you leave or remain in the referendum labour is promising. why can you say what many labour mps are saying, that remain as an m better deal, or that they don't want another referendum at all. we are the only party seeking to bring the
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entire country together. michael would take us over the edge, the liberal democrats want to forget a referendum ever happened. the only way we could bring the country together is to secure a deal that is better than the so—called up ready deal, because i have to say, if it was up and ready, why did the prime ministertaken was up and ready, why did the prime minister taken off the oven and put oi'i minister taken off the oven and put on the site. it is a bit of a dry turkey for christmas, if you don't mind me saying. the point is we get that better deal that protects workers' rights, protects our environment, protects our consumer standards and let the people decide. we will put into place whatever the british people decide, whether it is labour's dealer whether it is to remain in the european union. it is the only way we can bring the country together. michael gove, you stopjeremy country together. michael gove, you stop jeremy corbyn country together. michael gove, you stopjeremy corbyn would be such a terrible —— boris johnson stopjeremy corbyn would be such a terrible —— borisjohnson would be such a terrible premise. do you think he has improved? do you think he is fit to continue a number ten?
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yes, he has been a highly successful prime minister. tonight there was only one person... the reason we haven't got the brexit deal through... you took it out of the oven. is nice to not be interrupted once. the critical thing as there was only one person on that stage tonight is capable of being prime ministerand tonight is capable of being prime minister and this is notjeremy corbyn. as you quite rightly pointed out, there are many occasions in whichjeremy corbyn out, there are many occasions in which jeremy corbyn was asked about his position on brexit, he couldn't answer the question. andrew talked about bringing people together, he wants to bring them together by having another referendum. that is divisive, would suck all the oxygen out of our political system, it would mean we would not be able to move on and investing in our nhs, schools etc. more than that, if you are a leader, you need to have a clear view. at the end of an hour of questioning we do not know in that referendum that jeremy corbyn won so much whether he would argue for leave or remain. i don't know which
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way andrew would argue. would you argue for a leave or remain? look, any second referendum we would put to the people labour's plan for brexit... mac which is? which is a customs union, single market alignment. are you for that or remain? i would be comfortable going to my constituents and recommend them both for that. so would vote leaving? so you would be on a separate site from diane abbot?“ they choose not to, that is democracy. what are you afraid of? you have created a big mess in this country, michael. let's heala divided nation. so you have created a big mess in this country, michael. let's heal a divided nation. so you will heal a divided nation? you have sponsored. .. will heal a divided nation? you have sponsored... you're going to bring people together by arguing in that referendum that you have a great, even though many of your mp5 will
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all be arguing that we should remain. i thought you want to bring people together? you can't even bring your own shadow cabinet together. 635 to seven cabinets back borisjohnson's deal. together. 635 to seven cabinets back boris johnson's deal. you have got rid of all the people who disagree with you. but you promote all people disagree with you into the shadow cabinet. people didn't believe you... i don't know who's behind me at the moment... i think we can safely say that andrew certainly... is not a pantomime game, and as a stand—up comic, because he believes that the way to bring the people together is to have them all disagree. the way to have leadership in this country is to have a shadow cabinet fundamental driven... let me
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ask another question. this is many ways livelier than the debate we just. i'm going to interject, because you have asked him, ten times in the bay, two times here whether they believe or remain. let me ask you clearly, the prop that jeremy corbyn is holding up, can you absolutely rule out despite these private meetings are held behind closed doors... you can absolutely rule out that the nhs is off the table in any trade deal plus brexit? yes and the only reason jeremy corbyn goes on about this nonsense is because he is trying to divert attention from his failure to answer the essential question, which is what he argue for a leaving a remaining within the european union. it is the most ludicrous nonsense, and as the prime minister pointed out, he is passionate about our nhs, and his response when asked about this question showed the degree of energy and the degree of commitment that he has in making sure that our nhs, the envy of the world is
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strengthened for a majority of its lifetime. a majority of its lifetime the nhs has been safe in the hand of conservative government. it was redacted because they didn't want us to know the truth, they are about to give £500 million a week to donald trump and his big pharmaceutical corporations. let's save the nhs and vote labour. thank you very much, two of the picketers almost hitting each i think, at this point. seasonally, they started to channel pantomime it was a bit later on. let's move away from the many debate we had back to the main debate of the night between the two leaders and hear boris johnson. we certainly will come out on january 31, because we have a deal that, as i say, is oven ready, is ready to go. it is approved, as i say, not just by our friends and partners in the eu, but by every one of the 635 conservative candidates. and it delivers everything that we wanted from brexit. our whole country comes out, entire and
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perfect. england, scotland, wales and northern ireland together, and there is a sharp distinction between what we are proposing, getting brexit done, unleashing the potential of this country and next year, dither and delay, with another referendum on the eu, when jeremy corbyn, mr corbyn, cannot tell us which side he would campaign on. now, that is borisjohnson on his attack line of the evening, which was that effectively it is fine to offer another referendum, butjeremy corbyn personally will not say whether he would leave or remain, so thatis whether he would leave or remain, so that is a question ofjudgment. that is the key attack line. this is how jeremy corbyn responded. when you say you'll get it done, really, mrjohnson, you're going to embark on probably seven years of negotiations with the united states on a trade deal. you have already indicated that you will allow our national health service to be
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put at risk by a trade deal with united states. you have already indicated they will do a canada style agreement, which took at least seven years to negotiate. so you are not going to get it done in a few months and you know that perfectly well. jeremy corbyn insisting that boris johnson can't simply get brexit done, has been ready deal perhaps already going off because i will ta ke already going off because i will take ages to negotiate a trade deal. we are stripped loosely fairly at the bbc, we have heard from boris johnson, we have heard of question jeremy corbyn, we have heard from mps from the two main parties... one party, a party of government in scotla nd party, a party of government in scotland that wasn't invited tonight was the snp. you weren't invited along to make, what would your site if you were? on the key question personable, on brexit, which snp opposes. firstly, a democratic outrage. scotland was talked in that room at the start, throughout and at
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the end in the closing statements, yet we weren't invited. that is symptomatic of our very broken westminster system that does not work for scotland at all. if we were in the room we would have said, when you talk about the union and a partnership of equals, england voted to leave and they leave, will is what is the lead, they leave, northern ireland voted to remain, a differentiated deal, scotland overwhelmingly voted to remain and we are going to get dragged out against our will. that is a democratic deficit and a union and not many people in scotland are thankfulfor this. aye not many people in scotland are thankful for this. aye you are not many people in scotland are thankfulfor this. aye you are right to say that the snp were mentioned tonight, because the key accusation... the key accusation from portions is that you have already done some kind of backroom deal withjeremy already done some kind of backroom deal with jeremy corbyn already done some kind of backroom deal withjeremy corbyn to deliver a second referendum on scottish independence. hilljust forthe scottish parliament to decide... we have not done any deals anybody. we will work with anybody to keep boris
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and the tories out of number ten. the snp has a mandate, and set into ma nifestos the snp has a mandate, and set into manifestos that if those elections we would hold another election. it is not for boris johnson we would hold another election. it is not for borisjohnson orjeremy corbyn or anybody in westminster to deny scotland invoice. if we can send as many snp mps into westminster, we will escape brexit and have a say in our future. obviously of the labour party polish short of an overall majority at the end of the selection, you would be willing to work with them? —— full short. would you insist on having a scottish independence referendum in the pressure? whatjeremy corbyn seems to be saying is that he is not ruling it out entirely but wouldn't haveitin ruling it out entirely but wouldn't have it in the early years of a labour government. we have been clear that the scottish people's future should be decided in 202020. you heard the audience laugh when jeremy and boris suggested that the deal could be done by the end of
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december. canada has been negotiating its agreement since 2009 and is still not ratified. if you wa nt to and is still not ratified. if you want to escape exit, scotland wants to do, voted to do by 62%, then having a say on our own future as soon having a say on our own future as soon as we having a say on our own future as soon as we possibly can, to escape our broken westminster system is something we have pledged to do and it would be a condition, of course, if we were to give support tojeremy corbyn. you are prepared to see nicola sturgeon upon states to make, you even went to court to make sure the snp would be represented. —— up on stage. given that she wasn't, who was the more convincing? it was hardly a clash of the titans. the audience reaction was interesting. they lack the jeremy corbyn for having no consistent position. he is trying to ride two horses and bella both of them. laugh that boris johnson when he claimed he was an honest man of integrity. if that is the best in terms of what uk can do,
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frankly everyone is a loser, no one isa frankly everyone is a loser, no one is a winner. the snp not represented here tonight. nonetheless, the issue of scotla nd here tonight. nonetheless, the issue of scotland and how they form alliances with if there is an overall majority did come up in the debate tonight, as we hear now. i don't think we need another referendum on the union with scotland. i've ruled it out. we had won in 2014, the people of scotland voted very substantially to stay in the most successful political partnership of the last 300 years. why put this great country through another referendum? we've gotjeremy corbyn's response to that, he made it very clear site there will be no deals with the snp. nicola sturgeon has already said, don't pick up the phone unless you can guarantee a second independence referendum. can you rule it out before the end of the first year? i have said there
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would be no deal with the snp, there would be no support for a scottish referendum in the early years of the next labour government because i want to invest in scotland and give scotland the 70 billion it needs in capital. sojeremy so jeremy corbyn and sojeremy corbyn and borisjohnson talking about scotland. the snp weren't on the main stage tonight. there will of course be a seven party debate on the bbc. people will have an opportunity to see very many of the political parties contesting the selection. the main parties further down the line. another party wasn't here tonight, the liberal democrats. they went to court to try and givejo democrats. they went to court to try and give jo swinson democrats. they went to court to try and givejo swinson platform. obviously you would be unhappy about not being part, but from what you had been taking part, how would you have answered this straightaway about brexit? about getting brexit done as portions would have it, or from jeremy corbyn's point of view, having a referendum as mac well, as a party, clearly we are very much in the business of stopping brexit. that is what my answer would have
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been and i really regret the fact that the 60 million people who voted for remain were not really in that debate at all because borisjohnson isa debate at all because borisjohnson is a brexiteer and jeremy corbyn is a brexiteer. ithink is a brexiteer and jeremy corbyn is a brexiteer. i think it was outrageous thatjo swinson was not allowed to participate in that debate, because i think we would have had a much more informed, much more challenging debate, including for instance, challenging both boris johnson and jeremy corbyn on how on earth are they going to fund any of the promises they made in the second half of the debate, given that brexit is going to cause this enormous economic damage. one question that perhaps would have been asked of you if you took part in the debate was that, clearly borisjohnson are saying he will deliver brexit, jeremy corbyn says there will be a referendum, but you would simply cancel it. you not respecting the views of people who put it in 2016. we have explained that policy very clearly, the policy of revoking or cancelling article
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50, cancelling brexit, is something that would kick in if we went from the 20 members of parliament we had currently to 326 or more. i think most people would accept that that would be an indication on a scale not seen in our parliamentary history of a change in people's views. i think in those circumstances that would be a mandate, but other than in those circumstances, we maintain the view that it should be a people's vote, and the reason we think that is important is, what borisjohnson is proposing with his deal is putting a boarder in the irish sea. i challenge anyone three years ago for brexits confirmed that they knew that the union was going to be put at risk by putting that border on the irish sea. the liberal democrats, they will say they are the third party in the uk in terms of the candidacy of standing, the snp the third biggest party of course, neither of them on the main stage tonight. both of them quite frankly miffed about it but they we re frankly miffed about it but they
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were putting forward their views. both are anti—brexit parties. one topical question that came up during the course of the debate was prince andrew's interview at the weekend, which was a question that quite a lot of politicians have been running from. you can hear the sound of hatch is being battened down, anxious not to miss play... how did corbyn and johnson respond because they couldn't avoid a? they couldn't avoid it, and this was apparently an uncharacteristic quickfire round. their first answers were quite interesting, it was the monarchy —— mac was in monica's sell pepper purpose? corbyn said that it needed some improvement, which was one of his lighter moments. —— what is the monarchy is purpose? borisjohnson as the monarchy to suspend parliament rather controversially,
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but when it came to prince andrew, jeremy corbyn perhaps had the better more sure—footed tone. as the monarchy pepper purpose? needs a bit of improvement. the s are just is beyond reproach. —— make the institution of the monarchy is beyond reproach. as prince andrew? i think there are very serious questions which must be answered on no one should be above the law, but the primary position ought to be the proper treatment of those people who we re proper treatment of those people who were victims of the most appalling behaviour by apparently epstein and many others. i think all are should obviously be with the victims of jeffrey epstein, and the law must
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certainly take its course. both of them talking about a controversial subject. we are joined now by a member of the brexit party, controversial that your party wasn't pa rt controversial that your party wasn't part of that debate tonight. what else could you expect when you have told happier candidates? the reality is this was going to be a debate between either a person who will actually be the next prime minister. the crucial thing from the brexit pa rty‘s the crucial thing from the brexit party's point of view was that we get confirmation again, which is vital to us, that the prime minister has confirmed that the transition period will end at the end of december 2020. that is vital for us. that is what you wanted before you build the candidates? exactly, we pulled the pledge and will go for simple trade deal. the option of a clea n b rea k simple trade deal. the option of a clean break if it cannot be done
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next year are still in the table. that is the right thing in terms of negotiating labourers. we expect that a conglomeration... we essentially believe in taking a second referendum of the table which is really important for trust in democracy. we believe in not turning against conservative mps, we've taken that off the table. why not toe the rest of your candidates?“ is vitally important that we win some seats and hope the conservatives to account. -- why not pull the rest of your candidates? people who haven't voted conservative in a hundred years and one for the next 100, they are looking for an alternative option. we are the one party who has been talking about, from the middle of the summer, investing over 100 billion into the regions. it is regions like the north—east, the north—west that have been starved of investment, infrastructure investment, infrastructure investment in rail and road schemes. it was really disappointed tonight that that wasn't mentioned by either of them. there was all the nonsense
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from jeremy corbyn about selling off the nhs and privatising it, utter garbage. people should just forget those lies. my mac i think we are coming to an end, but as far as you are concerned, coming to an end, but as far as you are concerned , you coming to an end, but as far as you are concerned, you are pleased two you are pleased that brexit would not be extended ? you are pleased that brexit would not be extended? and you're not going to pull any further candidates? of course we are not, but voters know as winning seats in the house will hold the conservatives to account. brexit party aren't standing against conservative candidates, there are no longer doing so. the snp and the liberal democrats excluded tonight, anti—brexit, the brexit parties sell. equally, quite strong passions between labour and the conservatives on two main issues of this debate.
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from labour‘s point of view, going very strong on services is what they see as a threat to the nhs. and conservative trying to suggest they are end shouting distance of getting are end shouting distance of getting a brexit deal through parliament and it is labour trying to delay that. borisjohnson very keen to the evening to try and move on to that territory. even when he was asked about trust, he somehow managed to a nswer about trust, he somehow managed to answer about the eu. equally, when jeremy corbyn was asked about the nhs, he tried to talk about trade deals that may be done under brexit. ian watson in the spin room trying to litter is about the spin. —— left us to litter is about the spin. —— left us above the spend. chris morris, bbc reality check correspondent, was watching the debate.
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i... knowi i... know i was part of the evening. lots of claims and counter claims are made in the course of election debates. you have picked out a few that you thought were interesting this evening, that may be need a little more understanding to elaborate their answers. the obvious place to start since it dominated so much of the debate was brexit. yeah, i was once i am going to start almost exactly where ian watson finished. the three words we are probably more than any other during that hour of television, and they came out of borisjohnson's mouth at every opportunity, get brexit on. it is clearly what you wanted to say, the three words on the side of the spouse, it's get brexit done. even on the boxing gloves. if there is a conservative majority then i think it is bare to say we will certainly leave the eu on the 31st of january.
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-- fair leave the eu on the 31st of january. —— fairto say. leave the eu on the 31st of january. —— fair to say. the key thing is, will that get brexit done? legally, yes, practically, no. next year, if anything, could be more frenetic and more fraught than the year that is about to end. we have gotjust a few months to try and negotiate a trade deal with the european union. trade deals take a long time. mrjohnson keeps on saying yes but we start from almost the same place... we are aligned, but that is part of the problem, trade deals, which are a lwa ys problem, trade deals, which are always very difficult processes that are about gradually getting closer together and crating good well, what he wants to do is gradually pull us apartand he wants to do is gradually pull us apart and create potentially more tensions. there are certainly suspicions on the eu site about how far suspicions on the eu site about how faer suspicions on the eu site about how far mrjohnson wants to pull apart. it is not impossible but i think it will be a very tall order to do what
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you promise to do again, and that is to co m plete you promise to do again, and that is to complete brexit by the end of next year and leave the transition period with a trade deal. the idea that brexit will be done on the 31st of january, not really. that brexit will be done on the 31st ofjanuary, not really. and that brexit will be done on the 31st of january, not really. and what aboutjeremy of january, not really. and what about jeremy corbyn of january, not really. and what aboutjeremy corbyn on brexit? he got a bit in the neck from the audience? no surprises where michael gove chose to kick up the pantomime, because he was asked again and again watch is actually your policy on the eve or remain? and he kept pretty much repeating versions of this, that if we get elected within three months we will negotiate a good deal, incredible leave option, and within another six months, put that toa within another six months, put that to a referendum. he was asked by many, but which one of those two in a referendum which is poor, he simply didn't answer. i don't think people like that very much. we know why that created ambiguities, because the labour party is split down the middle. i think one of the conservative's strand that they have kicked out many of the people that
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didn't agree with the party line. —— conservative's strength. mrjohnson said that all his mps believe the same thing. this problem not entirely true, there are still shades of shades of difference of opinion. i think the problem for mr corbyn is, well he says the line, and you understand why he is saying it that way, that we are going to make a democratic decision, negotiate a better deal and his and let the people decide... but it does have a wealth of vacillation about it as well. what about the nhs? there have been mixed signals to say the least, not least from donald trump when he was visiting earlier this year, about the potential of the nhs being caught up somehow any trade deal with the aid to states? the nhs is obvious the ground where labour feels more countable and the conservatives are anxious not to be put on the defensive. one thing we picked up that borisjohnson said during debate, something he has said quite a few times during the election campaign already, that they
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are upgrading 20 hospitals and will have 11; new ones. we have talked about this a lot. what they've actually done is given the money to upgrade six hospitals on existing sites and for the other 3a of those 40, they sites and for the other 34 of those 40, they have essentially chucked in a bit of money for the architects and the planning and so forth. he might say eventually they are going to build them, but the suggestion that 40 hospitals are sprouting from previous greenfield sites simply isn't the case. even when he was talking about the nhs, he was anxious to get beyond the asked us and say what about brexit? interestingly, anyway, so it's jeremy corbyn. he wanted to talk about nursing numbers, although he got them wrong. he said there are 33,000 vacancies, it is actually more than that. this is his big sell, if you like. in any post brexit do donald trump, you are going to sell the nhs out of the united states and big pharma. that is the cane appraise you hear from
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american stand—up, text, big four. is the cane appraise you hear from american stand—up, text, big foure several times quoted figures that we re several times quoted figures that were built on a channel 4 documentary. the government has been clear and said documentary. the government has been clearand said again documentary. the government has been clear and said again the nhs will not be on the table. we know that in the draft negotiating objectives of the draft negotiating objectives of the us trade representatives, they have said they want full access to the british health market. and so thatis the british health market. and so that is one of the lines mr corbyn went on. his accusation, time and again, that you will sell the nhs out, that it will be sold, that is really u p out, that it will be sold, that is really up for debate. the government has been pretty insistent that simply isn't going to happen. a number he didn't aptly mention in this debate but has mentioned many times is that in the aftermath of this trade deal, the nhs would suddenly have to spend £500 million a week more on medicines. that number doesn't sound up to the truth, because it relies on all the drugs were using the nhs suddenly
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being sold at american prices, something which i think under any government pretty unlikely. now it's time for a look at the weather with matt taylor. tem ptress temptress staying above freezing to northern ireland, wales, still very close, if not below in some parts of scotla nd close, if not below in some parts of scotland and north and eastern england. they could be a bit of frost around first thing. bright enough start here, sunshiny but hazy, isolated showers than these nasty coast tomorrow, but for all a breezy day. scherer is potentially in western scotland, main chance of that in the morning. northern ireland, cambridge and pemex are most likely to see. most of you will spend, if not all the day, the bulk of the day try. temperatures higher than we have seen over the last day
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or two, between six and 11 degrees. tem ptress or two, between six and 11 degrees. temptress will climb a little each day over the next few days, but a greater chance of rain across the southern and western areas. see you soon. i'm ros atkins, this is outside source. borisjohnson and jeremy corbyn have locked horns in the first television debate of the election campaign. this issue that's defining this election took centre stage, both men taking aim at one another‘s approach, to brexit. you said there would be no border. on the contrary, the whole of the uk comes out perfect as i have said, comes out perfect as i have both leader tried to probe what they saw as their opponents' weaknesses — with borisjohson talking up the possibility of another referendum on scottish independence under labour. support for the chaotic coalition
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