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tv   Election 2019  BBC News  November 22, 2019 6:30pm-7:01pm GMT

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a very good evening. we're in sheffield — for the countdown to the bbc‘s question time leaders special, which starts injust 30 minutes‘ time. the leaders of the conservatives, labour, liberal democrats and the scottish national party will each have half an hour to make their case to the members of the public who will be asking the questions. the leaders announced amongst themselves which order they would go in. so it'll be live and uninterrupted,
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with the auditorium filled with a carefully selected audience to represent a cross—section of the voting public. first up will bejeremy corbyn for the labour party. they gave their pitch to the nation this week with what they described a "radical" manifesto. he'll be followed by the snp leader nicola sturgeon — during this election they have continued to push for another referendum on scottish independence. next up, jo swinson, leader of the liberal democrats. they also launched their manifesto this week, pledging to cancel brexit if they secure a majority. and finally, borisjohnson, the leader of the conservatives. who has promised to — in his words — "get brexit done". and, remember, we'll be fact checking the programme throughout with bbc reality check, and afterwards we'll be getting all the reaction and analysis
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from here inside the spin room. hello and a warm welcome to viewers around the world to a bbc news special — we're in sheffield building up to the question time leaders special. we are in the spin room where we are going to be watching the debate — let me show you around and give you a flavour of what is going to be happening in here. so the debate is going to be shown on number of big screens. there will be around 100 people crammed in here, most of them journalists, but of course there'll be various senior figures from the political parties here as well, who will be coming up here wanting to give their take on it all. it's not called the spin room for nothing! and it gets pretty wild in here towards 10pm and deadlines around the country. but we are in pole position tonight to bring you the first reaction. with me now is our political correspondent iain watson, and our reality check correspondent chris morris. let me start with you, because you can watch it on bbc one today if you are watching in the uk, but you are going to get a more interactive
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experience on the bbc news channel? promoting your own channel! yes, you are, because reality check is going to be going through this as live as possible and trying to hold the leaders to account, not on whether things are true or false but sometimes about how you use statistics to your own advantage. i am here with you in the spin room trying to knock a bit of the spin and we have our team of fact checkers back in london as well who will be listening in detail and when we think something isn't quite right oi’ we think something isn't quite right or could be interpreted in the wrong way we will be putting it out on graphics on the bbc news channel. we will look out for that. what are you looking for, iain? a lot of things. looking for a memorable moment, and sometimes those are not what the politicians would expect. i remember the 2015 election, similar format, and one of the leaders then literally stumbled, not on the policy but stumbled on stage, literally. what they will be wanting isa literally. what they will be wanting is a breakthrough moment where they can reach out and really get through to those voters they need to get
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onside. i will be looking to see whether or notjeremy onside. i will be looking to see whether or not jeremy corbyn, for example, as he is basically stuck in the polls, had this radical manifesto, will he be able to get some traction tonight? we will be looking to nicola sturgeon as leader of the snp— will she be putting a very blood red line over her demands oi'i very blood red line over her demands on the scottish independence referendum if there is a hung parliament, not for some time in the future, but in year one? jo swinson, a relatively new leader, excluded from the head—to—head debate this week on another channel. now she will have the chance to make her pitch but i think theo is being squeezed between the two main parties. borisjohnson is out in front, an advantage clearly with a place to start —— i think she is afraid of being squeezed between the tonight main parties. we have a labour party and conservative party ma nifesto labour party and conservative party manifesto but nothing from the liberal democrats or the snp —— we have a manifesto from the labour
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party and the liberal democrats but not from the conservative party and the snp. had they played that well? talking about getting brexit done, we may get questions from the audience on that little bit, what does that really mean? interesting with nigel farage, when he launched his brexit party contract today, stressing the idea that you have to get brexit done properly. i think there will be this feeling that getting brexit done in a legal sense is possible at the end of january if the conservatives win a majority but then there's the whole question of negotiating a future trade deal. for jeremy corbyn of course, we saw that in previous debates, it's the key question. he wants to renegotiate his own deal then put it to a referendum, but which way would he vote in that referendum? he really wasn't engaging with that question. you would imagine, because we don't know what the audience members will ask, but he maybe he will be pressed on that again. i think for both there is a potential achilles' heel on brexit. it feels like the prime minister is in a better position but he is promising a lot that he will have to deliver in the future. an
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interesting point chris makes because we are in a city where there are six seats and all of them in 2017 went to labour so is on favourable round, jeremy corbyn, but this was a city that went towards brexit and so although you have that sort of favouritism probably from some of the audience, they are going to have some tough questions on brexit? i think that's right. most of the big british cities of course did back remain but here in sheffield, narrowly, they voted to leave, and i think labour, of all the parties, has a membership and a wider electorate significantly who are split on brexit. most members wa nt are split on brexit. most members want to remain, but a lot of the vote rs want to remain, but a lot of the voters in northern england especially voted to leave. from jeremy corbyn's point of view, although the audience is party politically affiliated, for the most pa rt politically affiliated, for the most part two corbyn, some of those labour supporters might give jeremy corbyn a hard time on brexit, because some of them think he is too ambiguous, he should be putting out
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ambiguous, he should be putting out a clear remain message to rally other parts of the country and some people, certainly around here, is worried that he is offering a second referendum at all, damaging to his owfi referendum at all, damaging to his own side, making it slightly more difficult for him. from boris johnson's point of view, a lot of people in the city work in the public sector, for example. jeremy corbyn is keen to get the debate away from brexit and onto that territory and boris johnson away from brexit and onto that territory and borisjohnson is offering a lot more money for public services, might —— jeremy corbyn offering a lot more money on public services, so borisjohnson might feel less confident on those questions and jeremy corbyn. we will talk more through the course of the evening, but we are going to talk to polly mackenzie, the former special adviser to nick clegg, and alsojo tanner, formerly of conservative party strategy. jo tanner, to start with you, interesting being in sheffield. we are reminded that back in 2017 the seat of sheffield hallam that at the time was in the
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possession of nick clegg, it went to labour. and talking about these tv debates, the man who really got the breakthrough was nick clegg in 2010. what did he do right that others might sense not have done right? he had quite an easy positioning in 2010 actually because you had to my old parties and the liberal democrats and he could be the guy who put them both in a box and said, the two old parties, this boring way of doing things, if the two of them thought about stuff he could just then say, the two old people having then say, the two old people having the same old argument, let's have real change. so when you talked to david cameron's or gordon brown because my advisers, they both said they realise that actually in rehearsals nick clegg was going to get all of the best lines and they had given him a huge gift by letting him be there in the first place —— they both said they realised. but he performed very well to stop he was very human, very relaxed, made the point of little things, talking to the people who had asked the question is, remembering their name,
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making the point of telling stories about real people he had met who we re about real people he had met who were actually real, not made up, which helps. i think therefore he created a sense of connection and difference that enabled him to break through, and also because he was an unknown really before then so there was the sense of novelty in newness andi was the sense of novelty in newness and i think in this election people are desperate for something new and exciting because it is that same sense of kind of stale, depressing, slightly useless political campaigns from everybody. but i right, aaron tye,jo, from everybody. but i right, aaron tye, jo, that since 2010 we have not really had a political leader max has managed to shift the poles and a significant way on the back of these televised debates —— i am right, and i know what, jo? yes, that was the phrase coined as a result of that particular event, well then i think we haven't seen that shift in the dial but there is no question that for those of us who do watch these things, and let's face it, it can be a limited audience in terms of who watches on the night, but then also
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we have the extensive commentary on what happened in those debates. it can have an effect on how people view these leaders but whether it will really reship the dial, who knows? there is a sense it brings people who don't watch what goes on in westminster. from the numbers who watched itv debates it suggests there is an opportunity for one of these leaders. does it matter that these leaders. does it matter that the prime minister is going last? they didn't draw lots for it, the agreed amongst themselves. why would he want to go last? traditionally when you take part in interviews and when you take part in interviews and when you take part in interviews and when you have something like that today programme, you have the big slot, what tends to happen is you wa nt slot, what tends to happen is you want to have the last word and what that enables you to do as you can kind of mop up all the stuff the opposition says about you, says about things you are going to do and you can essentially right any wrongs, as it were, at the end. so it is normally better to do that,
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however there is a risk that you could have more energy at the beginning, therefore you could get a lot of stuff out there, and actually by the time you are the last one you just get distracted from actually what your core messages were going to be and you end up mopping up too much and you are not focused actually on the stuff you should have been talking about and the stuff you rehearsed with your advisers. polly, obviously it is important, and here is boris johnson, incidentally, and i think these pictures are from earlier today. as we talk about those, let's talk aboutjo swinson, poly, because you look at the poll of polls, 15, 16%, around that figure. it wasn't supposed to be like this, was it? they were supposed to be climbing the poles, taking advantage in the south—east. what does she need to do tonight? —— climbing the polls.|j think she needs to be distinctive, warm. ithink think she needs to be distinctive, warm. i think some criticism ofjo, she comes across warm. i think some criticism ofjo, she comes across as a warm. i think some criticism ofjo, she comes across as a bit over rehearsed. that is actually because she really is a girly swot. she worked incredibly hard, she
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prepares, she knows everything, and i think sometimes that comes across asa i think sometimes that comes across as a bit forced. i think if you can try to relax and enjoy it, she can do well. but it is a challenge. but then the liberal democrats, sure, they can sometimes do better in the polls. in 2010 they got 22%, i think, but actually fell back, meanwhile in 2001 the liberal democrats were only about 16—17% and managed to get 48 seats. actually the liberal democrats are a party where their vote is so concentrated geographically that the national poll isn't necessarily an indicator of how well they are doing in those key marginals they are facing. 0k, jo tanner, polly mackenzie, great to get your thoughts this evening. thank you very much indeed for that. let me bring you back into the room. i told everyone is working to deadlines tonight, and no more than oui’ deadlines tonight, and no more than our political correspondent for the new statesman, ailbhe rea, and tom
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newton dunn, political correspondent for the sun. looking forward to tonight? sigh and i always start these evenings with a sense of disappointment, thinking we probably won't get any game changing moments —— well, i always start. it is real people, not the likes of me, putting real questions to politicians, for the first time, on a national scale in this campaign. politicians find out a lot harder to pull the wool over people plus my eyes when they are talking to them face—to—face. we used to have something we called the sun cab, cabbie interviewing a politician in the back of his cab, and it used to pull off the most brilliant results, because politicians would really struggle giving their sound bite answers to the cabbie because they thought he was a real person. we could see something like that a little bit tonight. a game changer would involve some massive confession of financial impropriety or something like that which i would be amazed if we got, but we could see behavioural
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aspects that could amplify people plus my impressions of the leader play mat already. if they are seen as dithering, indecisive, naming no names, they could be seen as untrustworthy, and that too could be important. the story really of the day apart from the right to party and plaid cymru putting out their ma nifestos and plaid cymru putting out their manifestos has been of course of labour's announcement yesterday and the policies put forward —— the brexit party and plaid cymru putting out their manifestos. some of these policies did well in the polls but a lot of scepticism today about whether the labour manifesto is affordable and whether he can deliver it. he goes first tonight so he has a precious opportunity to get his message across? as tom was saying, i think that is why he needs this to be a game changer in the way borisjohnson this to be a game changer in the way boris johnson doesn't. if, this to be a game changer in the way borisjohnson doesn't. if, as tom says, tonight is a bit disappointing and nothing changes, it doesn't matter for boris and nothing changes, it doesn't matterfor borisjohnson and nothing changes, it doesn't matter for boris johnson and and nothing changes, it doesn't matter for borisjohnson and nor does it for nicola sturgeon, but it does it for nicola sturgeon, but it does forjeremy corbyn. they have released their manifesto, as you say, they are trying to convey the
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message of it to the country, and i think crucially they are trying to convey not only the greatness of their policies, but that they have their policies, but that they have the confidence to deliver them. as we have seen, that is the sticking point with corbyn at the moment. a lot of people would like a four day week but as we saw in the last of it, he was laughed at when you mentioned it, so the point is to be 0h mentioned it, so the point is to be on top of his figures, to make this the sort of game changer and shift people's minds about whether he is the man to actually bring in the policies. while we are talking i am going to bring up the order in which they are going tonight. starting with jeremy corbyn. they are going tonight. starting withjeremy corbyn. obviously they are going tonight. starting with jeremy corbyn. obviously your paper has had something to say about the policy yesterday. do you think it is about the policies themselves, 01’ it is about the policies themselves, or is it, as ailbhe says, about trust? sigh and i think that is right, the credibility problem. yes, i think. i think they find voters don't look at jeremy corbyn and some sort of great mastermind, evil, you know, but they look at him as a bit
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dithering. they quite like him, they know his heart's is in the right place... a massive crowd outside the university. sigh am i always big crowds outside universities and i think that will continue for a while. -- yes, always a while. -- yes, always big rights will stop what he is like four is his compassion but it is the deliverability. i think they find it quite hard to believe that his massive promises can be delivered but that also he can take tough decisions well the night he really needs to improve on that. pouring out his heart on how much he cares for the nhs is all well and good and important but it is getting on to what you're really going to do for the nhs that matters more than anything. let's talk about nicola sturgeon because she is up second and has been in sheffield having a look around housing project. she needs to come across 3s persuasive, ina way, needs to come across 3s persuasive, in a way, to audience. there will be snp people on to what you're really going to do for the nhs that matters more than anything. let's talk about nicola sturgeon because she is up second and has been in sheffield having a look around housing project. she needs to come across as persuasive, in a way, to a largely english audience. there will be snp people in the audience but it is a
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tough sell, across as persuasive, in a way, to a largely english audience. there will be snp people in the audience but it is a tough sell, isn't it? scottish independence sitting in front of angus people? i think it will be a strange one. she is the most experienced leader out of tonight and she is an old hand this kind of thing and a very competent communicator but scottish independence is not exactly a popular message exactly sure how that will go, how and i'm not exactly sure how that will an audience on questions like that. then you have probably the most inexperienced of the format, jo swinson. what does she need to do tonight? she definitely needs a springboard in these polls. she is in trouble. looking at the parties, nigel farage is not here tonight, but he is not standing in every constituency. all the main party leaders standing nationwide, jo swinson is the person who has suffered the most and unexpectedly so suffered the most and unexpectedly so far. she had lost a quarter, started on 20%, now down to 15... could be the next prime minister... interestingly, the manifesto launched on wednesday night. kind of lose track of the days come in different cities, different times. but on wednesday she quite finely
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recalibrated her message. i could be prime minister. we didn't hear about her taking 200 seats, instead of the incredibly bold claims her new recruit took a minute has made. she shifted over to the idea, that i am the person who could hang this parliament, about for me and it'll stop either of these two people you don't like getting the keys office —— perhaps it makes her offer to vote is a bit more realistic, but the same as jeremy corbyn she vote is a bit more realistic, but the same asjeremy corbyn she needs to do something. she is competent but when it comes to policy, you know, very presentable, but she doesn't really connect with people. a little bit wooden, little bit clunky, not a lot in the manifesto to set the world on fire, well then i think she needs bit of a personal moment, so people can look to her and say, ok, i know you now, didn't know that you really wear but i know you now. i think we have seen the sort of acknowledgement from the liberal democrats that the strategy they have had this whole time isn't quite working. their entire debt is
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basically centred onjo swinson as a person and around their revoked policy and we have seen that neither of them is quite working. they design that revoke policy kind of expecting to be heading toward no deal and maybe labour to be adopting an unequivocally remain position and neither of those things have happened. they are looking radical andi happened. they are looking radical and i think they looked to look reasonable to the other parties. having been out on doorsteps, i think tom is right. she is not going down quite as well as they had hoped. sigh and i wonder if in a way thatis hoped. sigh and i wonder if in a way that is because, because people don't follow westminster closely, she is an unknown quantity. a few weeks ago, we were turning up on doorstops with a very big team and some of the policies but one constituent, he thought she was a man because he just constituent, he thought she was a man because hejust didn't constituent, he thought she was a man because he just didn't know her. i think that will be part of her problem. let's talk about boris johnson. in a way, he would like everything to be focused on "get brexit done". i wonder if there will
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be some pushback tonight. there is no manifesto. the postal votes are going out this week and still we don't know what the conservative platform is. sigh and i think that is ok because the snp haven't done theirs either. -- yes, i think it is 0k. theirs either. -- yes, i think it is ok. we are exactly half way through. last night was a three—week point in what is basically a six—week campaign. we will get the tory manifesto on sunday, in all of its technical and glory. i think he will be able to say, just wait a couple more days, folks. he had an interesting problem tonight which is basically, to do whatever you cannot do anything at all. don't screw up at all, don't in any way rock the boat, be a little bit boring, but i also because we're three weeks into the campaign, a lot of his slogans sound bites, get brexit done, all of them, they are beginning to grate with people. you heard on the itv debate, people beginning to laugh at that. he needs to change his language. let's show you boris johnson arriving, getting out of his
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car in sheffield. actually, that dominic raab? yes, dominic raab. i think borisjohnson dominic raab? yes, dominic raab. i think boris johnson might just dominic raab? yes, dominic raab. i think borisjohnson mightjust have gone into the building first. he is the last to arrive here. jo swinson and nicola sturgeon where here quite early. a big crowd, as i said, in sheffield for the arrival ofjeremy corbyn, but there you see the foreign secretary dominic raab going 0h foreign secretary dominic raab going on and he will be coming up here to the spin room after the debate so we will hope to get some thoughts from him. just as we watch that, just one final thought on boris johnson him. just as we watch that, just one final thought on borisjohnson to stop tom is saying what he doesn't need to do tonight is drop the glass as he walks across the floor... need to do tonight is drop the glass as he walks across the floor. .. but it will be interesting to see if his change of strategy from the last debate. as tom was saying, that "get brexit done" felt very done, by people laughing at him and that is because he had been coached by an strategist who was sort of telling him, you know, to focus on getting the sound bites out there, to focus 0h the sound bites out there, to focus on the news highlights rather than
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the debate itself. that is probably not sustainable so it will be interesting to see if he changes his approach this time. that is the view for this format. you can'tjust throw it over to the guy or woman standing next to you. you have to face up to the audience and the question being asked. you are on your own, and question being asked. you are on yourown, and as question being asked. you are on your own, and as ailbhe was saying, what was wonderful about the british electorate, they really are not full. you get a lot of this american—style debate, especially with tv expenses, they shipped over american experts en masse, fly them over for the campaign is to do this very clever positioning, repetitive messaging. and british voters absolutely hate it. with theresa may in 2017, strong and stable, strong and stable. that really worked against her after a while. british vote rs against her after a while. british voters and the question time audience, of course expertly chosen from the electorate, they are savvy and they know what point blank when they are being taken for a right and it is fascinating seeing them turn on that public figure in those moments. in a way they mightjust be
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hoping not to be laughed at tonight. that was the takeaway, wasn't it, from the itv debate? 7 million people watched that, though, so and it isa people watched that, though, so and it is a different audience watching at home. lovely to see you both. thank you for your thoughts. it is of course a big night for sheffield. a good city to come to for the first debate because it has thrown up some surprises. in the referendum it went a different way to the other northern cities. leeds, manchester, liverpool, nottingham, they were all slightly towards remain and this one bucked the trend and went slightly towards brexit. joining me now is felicity matthews, senior lecturer in politics at the university of sheffield. good evening. big night for sheffield. a giant night for sheffield. a giant night for sheffield. my teaching place has been taken over... let's talk about the brexit issue. as i said a little earlier to iain, six words in sheffield all in the hands of labour at the moment, get overlaying that
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is obviously very strong brexit sentiment in the city —— six wards. yes, strong division in the city. all held by labour as you said and we have that one seat, sheffield hallam, currently held by the independent, where people voted to remain in the european union, and the lib dems have their eyes on that, then in all of the other constituencies, labour stronghold, everybody voted to leave by a significant margin. there are a few areas the conservatives are looking and thinking, we could get that, and they are the sort of seats the conservatives need to get in the north of england to break through and geta north of england to break through and get a majority in the selection. that particular seat you are talking about, it is a brexit seat. those are the sort of seats in the north they have to pick up. if they are going to lose those ones in the south to the liberal democrats we we re south to the liberal democrats we were talking about. they are likely to lose some in scotland as well now they don't have ruth davidson at the helm. it is also about compensating the losses, not just helm. it is also about compensating the losses, notjust making gains. is it just the losses, notjust making gains. is itjust a few miles from here, thatis
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is itjust a few miles from here, that is currently held by labour but we saw the conservatives really never the middle of that majority in 2017 and the majority is nowjust 1300 votes and itjust takes another 600, or 700 people to vote conservative and they have it. the other factor, they brexit party are fielding a candidate so there is the risk that vote could get split and then actually labour are safe home and dry as usual. one thing people who don't follow politics might be more snowy with, sheffield hallam, not least because it was the seat of nick clegg, deputy prime minister, but the real shot of that election is that he lost it to this momentum figure from labour, then all sorts of things that followed him about his social media comments online, then he resigned from the party. do labour supporters in sheffield hallam feel a bit bruised about that and might we get some local politics in that debate? i think sheffield hallam is an interesting constituency and it is not a labour
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stronghold, the interesting thing to say. the liberal democrats held it since 1992 and before that it was the conservatives. i think it was the conservatives. i think it was the first time labour ever got that seat so a huge shock and without dwelling on it too much, lots of shenanigans jared o'mara engaged in, and he is currently the independent, not standing at the next election. since day one after the 2017 general election the liberal democrats were there on the ground, firing, getting their candidate out there, and laura garden, she is really well—known in that can stitching it —— on the ground putting out fires and getting their candidate out there. they have made a massive play on the ground for the seat, and barring some unforeseen disaster i think it is a pretty safe lib dem territory again then —— putting out fliers. pretty safe lib dem territory again then -- putting out fliers. two football clu bs, then -- putting out fliers. two football clubs, the steel city, university population. of course borisjohnson university population. of course boris johnson wants to university population. of course borisjohnson wants to get brexit done but are they focused on the policies as well? is there a lot in the manifestos they will be looking at? eleanor i think people will be looking at the manifesto. anecdotally speaking,”
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looking at the manifesto. anecdotally speaking, i know a lot of people in the public sector, self employed —— yes, i think people will be looking. connecting those tonight, they care about how public services will be funded and what that means to the economy. i think people are pouring over the ma nifestos people are pouring over the manifestos in a bit more detail in a way that the parties focusing a lot on brexit have not given them credit for. you're in a roomful of journalists and commentators. does a political scientist look at a debate like this in a slightly different way? eleanor an interesting thing. tv debates have their pros and cons. encourage investment to focus on the figures and the sound bites but maybe that is at the expense of a more in—depth analysis. your previous interview, i think he spoke about how the format could possibly be more engaging because there is nowhere to hide. the unpredictable to of the audience. exactly, and on tuesday we saw that two landing blows at each other instead of necessarily answering the question but tonight people will hopefully have to give straighter answers. and keep to time as well. people watching at home, there are always questions about the audience, is it
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leaning one way or another? they have painstakingly looked at this audience, having working on it for weeks, and it will be a local all the in the audience but whatever they might have a majority labour, and conservatives, but there will be snp supporters, brexiteers, remain as, well then might audience for ebb and flow through the night. as, well then might audience for ebb and flow through the nightm as, well then might audience for ebb and flow through the night. it will, and flow through the night. it will, andi and flow through the night. it will, and i think —— remainers. i think it will change through the night. we knew some of the headline policies, what the labour party was fizzing, but yesterday's manifesto shows they have quite a radical plan for transforming the economy in terms of renationalisation, investment in public services —— what the labour party was promising. the conservatives haven't yet released their manifesto, so... maybe there might be some more slips as well. felicity, lovely to have your company tonight. thank you very much indeed. so we are 30 seconds away to the question time debate.
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remember the order. generally corbyn of labour at first, nicola sturgeon of labour at first, nicola sturgeon of the snp, then liberal democratjo swinson, and then the prime minister, borisjohnson. swinson, and then the prime minister, boris johnson. he swinson, and then the prime minister, borisjohnson. he will be the last to speak tonight. let's tune into the question time debate, live... for the first time, all full leaders of the uk's main political parties will answer questions one after another from the question time audience. everyone gets the same amount of time, just under half an hour, to respond to what our audience wants to ask about their politics. we will begin with the labour leaderjeremy corbyn, then the first minister of scotland and leader of the snp nicola sturgeon, followed by the leader of the liberal democrats jo
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followed by the leader of the liberal democratsjo swinson, and finally the conservative leader and prime minister boris johnson. finally the conservative leader and prime minister borisjohnson. and remember as

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