tv Victoria Derbyshire BBC News December 10, 2019 10:00am-11:01am GMT
hello, it's tuesday, it's ten o'clock, i'm victoria derbyshire. labour leaderjeremy corbyn says this picture of a four—year—old boy lying on a hospitalfloor shows the state of the nhs as his party pledges a "relentless focus" on the health service if it wins power. it is obviously awful for that little boy and the family, the way they retreated, but it does say something about our nhs when this happened and all research shows there is a very large number of hospitals where patients are at risk because of staff shortages, because of the lack of equipment, because of poor maintenance hospital buildings. the health secretary, matthew hancock, apologised yesterday. we will talk to labour's shadow health secretary today.
six people are now confirmed dead after a volcano erupted on white island in new zealand. an investigation has been launched. we know too there will be bigger questions in relation to this event. these questions must be asked and they must be answered. and we'll have the latest in our exclusive series, election blind dates — where we bring together two people with opposing political views. will this be the first time we have a couple really fall out? can you just let me finish? no, but... can i get a word in, just a little word? no, the reality is he opposes... listen to me. this is the problem. i also want to... just quickly. you need to have some omlette. can you stop saying that? let me just finish. i need to finish this.
hello. welcome to the programme. we're live until 11 this morning. also later, phil and holly haven't fallen out. apparently. haven't fallen out. and tactical voting — does it work? haven't fallen out. we haven't fallen out. will bring you a definitive a nswer we will bring you a definitive answer before 11am! email email@example.com or message us on twitter. first, annita mcveigh has the news. good morning. new zealand prime ministerjacinda ardern has said there are questions which "must be asked" after the volcanic eruption on white island. six people are dead and eight are missing on the island, though police say they are also likely to have died. officers earlier announced that a criminal investigation would be opened, but later revised this, saying it was "too early" to say. with two days until polling, borisjohnson is to tell voters that the conservatives are the only party who can deliver brexit. the prime minister will warn of what he calls the clear and present danger of another hung parliament if people do not back
the conservatives on thursday. meanwhile, labour are pledging a "relentless focus" on the health service if the party wins power. it says reports produced by nhs trusts in england this month show a health service "in crisis and on the brink," and promised an immediate audit of nhs risks under a labour government. six people have been killed and two injured in a shooting at a hospital in the city of ostrava in the czech republic. the suspect — who reportedly opened fire in an outpatients department — is believed to have shot himself. the air force in chile says a military cargo plane with 38 people on board has disappeared en route to antarctica. in a statement, it said operators lost contact with the plane as it was flying over the sea, just over an hour after its departure from the southern city of punta arenas. a search and rescue team is working to locate the aircraft. a falklands veteran who had his war medals taken off him when was forced out of the royal navy for being gay
is to have them returned. 68—year—old joe ousalice, who is bisexual, has now received an official apology from the ministry of defence. he was discharged from the navy in 1993 when there was a ban on lgbt people serving in the armed forces. this morning co—hosts phillip schofield and holly willoughby have said there's no rift between them, after claims their relationship has become strained recently. speaking to radio 1's newsbeat, holly said it would be "impossible" to do the job "without getting along", while phil said anyone who said they'd fallen out "was mistaken". the pair have presented the itv daytime programme for 10 years. and that is the end of our summary, back to you, victoria. studio: thank you. we will talk tojoe about getting his medal back and getting an apology after 26 years of fighting, he will be in the studio
before 11 o'clock. the image of the four—year—old boy called jack lying on coats on a hospitalfloor in leeds has become a national issue. we've blurred his face after his mum said she didn't want his photo being published again. she contacted the yorkshire evening post and it was picked up the mirror. yesterday the prime minister initialy refused to look at the photo, putting a reporter's phone in his pocket. i'm talking about this boy, prime minister, how do you feel looking at that photo? let me tell you that i have not had a chance... why don't you look at it now, prime minister? you have refused to look at the photo, you had taken my phone and put it in your pocket, prime minister. his mother says the nhs is in crisis, what is your response?m isa in crisis, what is your response?m is a terrible, terrible photo and i apologise to the family and all of those who have terrible experiences in the nhs, but we are supporting the nhs and, on the whole, i think patients in the nhs having much,
much better experience than the poor kid has had. today the mirror have another story by the same journalist, paul byrne, again on their front page about a baby called lily who the paper says was forced to wait on a chair in a&e for six hours with just mum's cardigan as a blanket. lily is nine months old. let's talk to lily's mum, louise webb, she is at at home in ellesmere port. what happened last wednesday? young after a very long four weeks of lily being poorly, she unfortunately deteriorated in the evening. she had a sunken soft spot quite badly. when we arrived it was quite quiet and we thought it should not be too long, maybe two, three hour wait, maximum. we got on the back and they said it could be up to four or five others, there are lots of children waiting,
some really poorly and we finally got seen at around 6am. we had to wait a further hour to see a paediatrician, obviously a child doctor, to give us a summary of what was wrong with lily and she said we could be admitted but we could be waiting another several hours without a children's bed, there were no beds on the children's ward. so you waited five hours to see someone initially, any medical professional, then a further hour to see a specialist children's doctor. yap. why did they say there were no beds? they did not really explain. whilst we we re they did not really explain. whilst we were in the kids zone there were not many nurses and doctors, a p pa re ntly not many nurses and doctors, apparently there were only two doctors on shift that night, i know they were really stretched and there was only a student knows he was floating around, she was taking a lot of the brunt of the issues of the parents on, from the frustration about the kids being poorly, but
there was no explanation why there we re there was no explanation why there were no beds. i did not want to wait another four to six hours were no beds. i did not want to wait anotherfour to six hours in were no beds. i did not want to wait another four to six hours in a waiting room, lily was restless at this point, we came down in a taxi because we do not drive, she only had a car seat and did not want to be cramped in that, but it's one of the reason she was asleep on the chair, mainly for comfort. she did not want to lay on us any more, she was exhausted, frustrated, upset, there was no explanation. how did you feel when you were told about the weight, and when you were told there were no children's beds? —— when you were told about the wait. when i took the photo i thought this is not right, (inaudible) needed it to be soon, but, like... (inaudible)
this service is meant to help other children and i know the doctors and nurses in the nhs are doing everything they can, i don't know if it is the lack of funding but something obvious you need to change, if there are no beds and there was very little help, does your child had to deteriorate before something... someone will see your child? that something... someone will see your child ? that is something... someone will see your child? that is not right, that make sense. it does, louise. the chief executive of the hospital said we apologise to anyone who had to wait longer than four others, we would be very grateful to their feedback. let me ask you how lily is, she looks pretty good. they she better? you are better, aren't you? she still has a calf but it is that time of year when everyone had something, some babies handle it better than others, she has had a rough time that you are much better, aren't you? if i don't ask you i will be
criticised and it is a question, you told me you voted labour at the last election, what do you say to those who might say you are politicising potentially your own child because you are a labour voter? when i sent the e—mail yesterday, i read the article of the little boy on the floor and i was like, well, i had a similar experience, nothing to the extent of that. i would not expected to be on the news in the morning. i don't think my problem is to do with... don't think my problem is to do with. .. there is don't think my problem is to do with... there is obviously a problem with... there is obviously a problem with the funding to do with the government but this is not a political side to me, this is more anger and upset as a parent that this is a service that is meant to be provided, and for our children, the ones that can't speak, we need to defend and look after them. i have had very many questions, is it political? it is very close to the election and i understand people are
saying this is faked on stage, but no. iam saying this is faked on stage, but no. i am obviously a labour supporter, but no. thank you, louise webb and lily, i am pleased that lily is on the mend. we asked the conservatives to come on and talk about this — both yesterday and this morning. a few minutes ago they got back to us to say they can't provide anyone. we can't talk now to the shadow health secretary, jonathan ashworth, in our westminster studios. —— we can talk now. personal nhs stories often come up under election campaigns, it has happened and a labour government. the case of jack, shocking, the case of how long lily had to wait, not ideal. does it tell us had to wait, not ideal. does it tell us anything new? our hearts go out to the families ofjack and lily, there is a story on the front page of the independent about a 12—year—old who waited 57 hours in a&e for a specialist bed, our hearts go out to them, it is disgraceful. i
ama go out to them, it is disgraceful. i am a father of two young children andi am a father of two young children and i would be livid and angry in this situation. we have had 17,000 nhs bed skirt under the conservatives, if we are elected on thursday we will end the tory beds cuts on friday, this cannot carry on. “— cuts on friday, this cannot carry on. —— we have had 17,000 nhs beds cut. even if you win the election, you could not ended on friday. cut. even if you win the election, you could not ended on fridaylj would you could not ended on friday.” would order that bed cuts had to come to an end, we will put an extra 40 come to an end, we will put an extra a0 billion into the nhs and recruit extra doctors and nurses. we should not have so many people on waiting lists, elderly people wasting away on trolleys in hospital corridors. the nhs is in crisis after ten years of conservative cutbacks. you could be health secretary in a few days, would you have been able to look at that photograph of jack? would you have been able to look at that photograph of jack? yes, i
would have been heartbroken and i would have been heartbroken and i would have been heartbroken and i would have apologised to jack and his family. the conservatives are putting just over 20 billion into the nhs over the next few years, you cannot say under borisjohnson, when it comes to the money, they are not connected to the nhs. but they have had a decade of cutting health and ca re had a decade of cutting health and care services. it is the first thing in the manifesto, borisjohnson‘s onwards, i guarantee extra funding for the nhs with 50,000 more nurses and 50 million more gp surgery appointments. they have not dented for a decade... he has not been prime ministerfor a decade. for a decade... he has not been prime minister for a decade. we have record cancer waiting lists and a&e in crisis. on his extra nurses, 19,000 of them already work in the nhs, so it is only 31,000. he is trying to take people for full, not telling the truth about the nhs and running away from his record of a decade of cutbacks. the future of the nhs is at stake on thursday and i believe the nhs can't cope in its
current form of another five years of tory cutbacks, staffing failures and privatisations, as we will get if the tories are re—elected. and privatisations, as we will get if the tories are re-elected. jack's mothergate permission to the yorkshire evening post to use the photo, —— jack‘s mother gave permission, but since then she has written to the press regulator and said she does not want him used as a political football. i said she does not want him used as a politicalfootball. i respect said she does not want him used as a political football. i respect that and we have to look at the broader picture, numbers on waiting lists, people languishing on trolleys in hospital corridors. these are devastating figures and they have all got worse under the conservatives, we have not met any targets in the nhs for years, and every single cancer waiting target the tory standards of care had deteriorated. we simply cannot carry on, we cannot have another five yea rs of on, we cannot have another five years of waiting lists growing bigger and bigger. the boss of the
nhs provider said no party has been honest, he said while there have been impressive sounding pledges that have not been credible —— credible answers in closing the gap between rising demand for care and nhs resources. he is saying it is not enough, there will still be a gap, manifesto funding commitments do not go far enough. foundation so we are putting in levels of investment which means we can improve services and the conservatives are not putting anywhere near as much in. we have a proposalfor anywhere near as much in. we have a proposal for long—term social care needs, we will introduce free personalfor needs, we will introduce free personal for the elderly, the social ca re personal for the elderly, the social care budgets many elderly and venerable people go out without the ca re venerable people go out without the care they need. but there is no plan. we will put the money and, recruit extra doctors and nurses, bring back a training bursary so
people who want to train to be a no sorry midwife can —— to be a nurse 01’ sorry midwife can —— to be a nurse ora sorry midwife can —— to be a nurse or a midwife. we need to end the privatisation of services which we do not think is in the interest of taxpayers or patients. a tory eight said that a labour campaigner had punched an aide of the health secretary, that was not true, have misleading statements become the norm? i hope not. spin doctor spin things and there is a lot of banter going on. i want you to respond to particular incident. i was having ba nter particular incident. i was having banter with the tory friends of mine, at least i thought it was a friend, a tory activist called greg barker, having banter because he said the tories will lose and i was
like, you are going to be fine, joshing, like all friends do, he has only gone and leaked it to a website and selectively leaked it. i thought he was a friend, greg barker, obviously he is not. let'sjust tell the audience what that is about, conservative supporting website keto fox has got hold of a phone call if you talking to a conservative supporting friends, let me just tell the audience, and which appear to say there is no way labour can win, the situation out there labour is dire. that must be your view if you said it to a friend. he said to me the tories at head office are saying you are narrowing, you will win. it isa you are narrowing, you will win. it is a bit ofjoshing, he is an activist and i sort of... it is a bit like when you are saying to your mate who is a fan of the rival football team, you know, don't worry, your team will. .. football team, you know, don't worry, your team will... you are unnecessarily trying to boost their
ego and make them become complacent. he has never leaked it all. i went to america with this guy, we went on a trip to america and he has leaked it all, i can't believe that. he had said more than once that the situation for labour is dire. because he is saying thatjeremy corbyn will win, it is joshing, because he is saying thatjeremy corbyn will win, it isjoshing, he has elected, i can't believe it. we are mates teasing each other, at one point cycle him a nervous nelly —— at one point cycle him. i spent three weeks going around america with him and he has leaked it, i will not go for a drink with him again. you have also seem to say that boris johnson again. you have also seem to say that borisjohnson will had to eff it up enough to win. you go on about misleading statements, if you are saying this to a mate, you mean it. he is saying to me thatjeremy corbyn will win. i am waiting to a mate. you seem to say, i have the
transcript, boris johnson mate. you seem to say, i have the transcript, borisjohnson will had to eff it up not to win. he is saying jeremy corbyn will win and i'm trying to make and complacent. did you say that? of course i did, but i am waiting above, joshing with him, it is banter. i and just saddened that a friend that i spent three weeks going went with about 15 yea rs three weeks going went with about 15 years ago has done that, because he isa years ago has done that, because he is a tory activist. —— micah three weeks going round america with. was this banter, you also said the party effed it up when they chose corbyn? we were having banter, joking around. we were joking we were having banter, joking around. we werejoking around, i don't mean it, i am joking around with my mate because he is a tory. just a minute, the party effed it up... both talk at once if you leak to giteau full, it makes me look like a
right plonker, but it is not what i mean when i am waiting up a friend -- if mean when i am waiting up a friend —— if you leak it to guido fawkes. lets be clear, when you said the party effed it up when they failed to get rid of corbyn, you didn't mean that? no, i am pulling his leg. do you thinkjeremy corbyn is a threat to national security? of course i don't! i can't tell what you mean i don't mean any more.” course i don't! i can't tell what you mean i don't mean any more. i am joshing about with somebody i thought was an old friend, who has now leaked it to guido fawkes, i don't friends i have known for many yea rs, don't friends i have known for many years, he is a tory and we have already had banter together. i am teasing him, he has been winding me up teasing him, he has been winding me up saying everybody at cc hq thinks corbyn will win until this sort of stuff, we a re corbyn will win until this sort of stuff, we arejoshing corbyn will win until this sort of stuff, we are joshing around, corbyn will win until this sort of stuff, we arejoshing around, but he is obviously in a panic because he
thinks the labour party will win, which is why he has leaked a jokey conversation. i thought he was a friend, he is clearly not a friend. he was the former chair of the canterbury conservative association. it isa canterbury conservative association. it is a shame when a friend that to you. if the conservatives win more seats, what you expect to happen within the labour party? we will win this general election to safeguard the nhs, to stop the cuts to our health and care services, to stop the bed cuts and stop the crisis a&e departments. if you do not win, how soon departments. if you do not win, how soon would you expectjeremy corbyn to resign? we will win this general election, people are fed up of the tory cuts to the nhs the waiting lists going higher entire. thank you very much for coming on the programme, shadow health secretary for labour, jonathan ashworth. still to come... in the last of our exclusive series of election blind dates, the subject
of war causes a conflict. iraq is very important, it is the defining war of our time. the war that i lived through was the defining war for me. but this is british foreign policy, you have cheerleaders for wars. you have to stop saying that. as someone who lived through civil war and understand the reality is, they are not... listen to me, you have never been to warand not... listen to me, you have never been to war and you do not know what it is like to put your life at risk. and hugh grant has been out encouraging people to vote tactically in thursday's election. we'll be finding out whether that approach really works. we hope to have a definitive answer before 11am! six people are now confirmed to have died after a volcano erupted on white island in new zealand. eight people are still missing and rescuers say there are no signs of life. earlier police in new zealand described it as a criminal investigation but have since corrected their statement saying they would look into the circumstances
of the eruption. the first victim to be identified by local media is tour guide hayden marshall—inman from nearby town whakatane. the second person confirmed to have died is from malaysia. two british women are among those injured. here's new zealand's prime ministerjacinda ardern. we know too there will be bigger questions in relation to this event. these questions must be asked and they must be answered. and police and work safe will be putting out statements setting out that process, as i understand, later today. but our focus now is on discharging our duty of care to those affected, and that is also the focus of police. to those who have lost or are missing family and friends, we share in your grief and sorrow and we are devastated. david mcclelland was on a helicopter over the island when the volcano erupted.
and norma lane is the operations director at stjohn ambulance new zealand, she has been heavily involved in the rescue effort. thank you for talking to our british audience. david mcclelland, what did you see? what started off as a bit ofa you see? what started off as a bit of a joy flight, i have never really seen of a joy flight, i have never really seen white island before, as we left the mainland we notice that the island was active but not knowing what goes on we thought it was quite normal. (inaudible) the emergency services (inaudible) got closer and closer. to let the audience know, david, we are showing your photographs, you are an aviation photographer. you say you did not realise what was happening, when did you realise that it was an
eruption? just as we got closer to the islands we noticed that radio calls were coming through, there we re calls were coming through, there were obviously casualties on the island and rescue services were scrambling as quickly as they could. we had a view of a couple of the helicopters below us, so we decided to pretty much leave him to it norma lane, in terms of practicalities, what are you and your colleagues able to do? this was an incredibly challenging job for our people. we have never seen anything like this
before, the scale of the burns and the trauma and clearly being on an island. we had two of the air ambulance helicopter is actually land on the island but it was after the survivors were able to be evacuated by private boats, coastguards and private helicopters, but we were really fortunate that in of the helicopters at the national medical director tony smith was actually on—board. —— in one of the helicopters, a la national medical director. we dispatched helicopters from all over the country. with the coastguard and the local airport we we re coastguard and the local airport we were able to receive those casualties as they were arriving. and then taking casualties to the local hospital where the amazing
clinical teams worked alongside our paramedics to stabilise patients and over a period of several hours we we re over a period of several hours we were then airlifting them from the 27 hospitals and with burns units, specialist hospitals all over the country. we had paramedics go by boat with coastguards to meet some of those boats as they were coming into shore and climbing into those boats to treat critically injured patients while they were travelling back to land. devastating. i think the country has seen more burns victims in one day than we normally would see in a year. david, i know you had spoken to a number of rescuers, what could they tell you?
pretty much backs up what was just said, it is something out there today, we got a new more words from a few more people, stuff they had not seen before. yeah, for us, hearts go out to all those affected. i can't hearts go out to all those affected. ican't imagine hearts go out to all those affected. i can't imagine it, really. thank you both, i really appreciate your time, david mcclelland, an aviation photographer, and norma lane, the operations director of stjohn ambulance new zealand. thank you. still to come. we'll get the inside track on rumours of a rift between this morning's philip schofield and holly willoughby. they say it is not true, we will bring you the latest. and we'll speak to falklands veteran joe ousalice, who'll be getting his war medals back, after they were taken off him when was forced
out of the royal navy because he was bisexual. and now for the final episode of our special series election blind dates, where we send two people with opposing political views on a blind date. owenjones is an author, guardian columnist and labour supporter. nimco ali is an activist who campaigns against female genital mutilation. she says she's undecided on how she'll vote in this election, but doesn't wantjeremy corbyn to win a majority, and has been campaigning for certain conservative candidates. they've had spats on twitter in the past, but will all be forgiven when they meet in person, or will this be the first episode in which our couple really falls out? has anybody ever walked out? not yet. hello. are you asking me questions like, "are you friends with people who disagree with you?"
i'm owenjones, a guardian columnist. that little lefty so—and—so. my name is nimco ali. i'm an anti—fgm activist. i spend a lot of time on twitter calling people melts. borisjohnson, tawdry, clownish, charlatan. jeremy corbyn. he's probably good on bins. could you ever date a corbyn supporter? never. never! basically, i'm going to be stuck in, effectively an anxiety dream. hello. hey! how are you? how's it going? good to see you. how are you doing? crackers — lovely and festive. so this is weird. it is quite weird, isn't it? yeah. we're basically having a date like two people who once probably might have had a fumble. and then what happens is that you meet you each other again. cos it's not like we're not familiar to each other. no. but we haven't had a fumble, just to clarify. yeah, we haven't had a fumble. he's not tall enough for me. anybody tall and tory is a good start. what are your first dates normally like? well, they're not with women anyway.
not for a whlie. i did take the scenic route to being gay. i had a jacket potato in eastbourne, which was incredible. on the political trail. what do you have in yourjacket potato? beans and cheese. high five. yeah. anyone that believes that the uk will be better outside of the eu, or believes in the united kingdom, wants to put their flags and do these things, are called nationalists, are called racists, are called fascists. it's become right wing to believe in britain. what do you mean, believe in britain? what does that mean? cos lots of people believe in britain. theyjust don't believe in brexit. and brexit and britain are not the same thing. so it's 2019. the referendum was in 2016. i think in orderfor us to get things done, we have to just accept the fact that we left. so i wish get brexit done was a thing... i said get things done,i didn't say get brexit done. cos i want to talk about the things again... cos i'm so bored talking about brexit. oh my god, itjust makes me want to rock in the foetal position, dribbling.
so the borisjohnson, get brexit done line, is a nonsense because we'll be stuck for years talking about trade negotiation. but can we get it started? i think, can we got a deal through? but i think he deal was really bad. i think we should have a brexit deal that the people decide in a referendum, because then there'll be an actual deal they canjudge. i don't think that's great, to be honest. i think all options are pretty bad. the reality is that i voted remain. i was very upset for about six and a half months. but then ultimately i got over myself and i crossed over, and i met people that i believe in the united kingdom. the way the tax proposals labour came up with works, is everything above £80,000 will be taxed at a5 rather than a0%. £80,000 in london. it's a lot of money. it's a lot. it is not a lot of money. well, the median wage in this country is about 26 grand. i know a lot of people who make like, more than 80,000, probably make more than a hundred. but at the same time, they've got kids and they pay taxes. that's the thing — why
are we demonising people that...? it's not demonising. it was demonising. people i meet who are cleaners, who earn less than the living wage in london, and these are people with families as well, they are on way, way, way less than £80,000. i completely get it. let's lift people up. so that the thing that i don't understand about you guys on the left, on the hard left, is that it's this whole thing of bringing everybody down. no. no, it is. most people who are earning over 80 grand, they're still going to be very well off when they pay a bit more tax. let's use that money to invest in education, in health care. so it's not about punishing. you might think that your message is about actually bringing society together, but what you're doing, you're actually dividing people. if you try not to lean too much to the left. oh! more that way, then we'll be all right. banter! what do you think about boris johnson calling gay people tank top bum boys? i can't speak for — he's not my friend.
i'm not here to... ever since he's become prime minister, i get people sending me, calling me a bum boy, with things like, "back boris" in their twitter profile. i mean, do you think it's acceptable to call gay people bum boys? no, i don't think it's acceptable. is it homophobic? do you accept it's homophobic? i don't think is acceptable to call... but is it homophobic? if you heard someone yelling at a gay person, bum boy, would you accept that's homophobic? if i heard somebody yelling, then i would actually step in and say, that's unacceptable. you say it's unacceptable, but we've got to call bigotry what it is. yeah. is calling a gay person a but boy, homophobic? no, but... the whole point is... this is slightly — this is what alarms me, because of your partisan support... no, it's not partisan support. the whole point is i hear several... why won't you say it's homophobic? i don't get it. because he's not a homophobe, i know that. is calling somebody a bum boy, homophobic? so if you heard — if i was like, in a conversation, and somebody said the n—word, would i say that person is racist? what i'm saying, is the term but boy, homophobic? bum boy, homophobic?
it depends on the context it's being said. it doesn't! would jeremy corbyn, seeing the gassing of children in syria today, step in? like the uk want to do? my worry is... no, would he step in? well, i mean, i don't think western involvement in the middle east has helped. i'm ijust don't. i think, to be honest, the less britain goes to war, the better. if somebody was bombed, and prayed for nato to step in, but didn't, would he ever go to war, is the thing? why don't we talk about iraq, just because i think it's really, really important, because it's the defining war of ourtime? in iraq... well, the war that i lived through was the defining war for me. of course. i mean, in terms of british foreign policy. you have cheerleaders for wars... they are not cheerleaders for war. they're are not — can you stop saying that? as somebody that lived through divil war, and somebody that understands the reality of civil war, they're not... listen to me, listen to me. you've never been to war and you don't actually know what it's like to put your life at risk. you also don't know how to be loyal.
so the reality is... i don't know how to be loyal? what sort of language is this? because they voted in good conscience, thinking that they were intervening in order to support people. i find it outrageous that supporters of wars in, in... oh, my word. please... those people are responsible for the biggest foreign policy disaster of our time, are still treated seriously on any other issue, i personally find unforgiveable. i grew up under a conservative government. that conservative government imposed terrible cuts on schools, which left quite literally leaking rooves. you're basically talking to a former child refugee that grew up in a council estate. i understand poverty, i understand things. but the reality is a lot of those communities, and a lot of those issues that are happening there, are actually to do with low expectations of the left and the labour party. what i saw was that, having grown up in a white working class area, i saw the left actually thinking that they owned them, so not actually helping those kind of communities. the difference between me as the child that came from a refugee background in a white working class community,
was that i had aspirations and those aspirations came from my family. so can i explain? the stresses that poverty did put on the lives, which i saw, of my friends growing up, yes, firstly... well, you saw it, i lived it. and i still see it everyday. so the whole point to you is like token and anecdotal... it's not anecdotal. it's about what the evidence shows. the educational attainment of poorer children, on average, is significantly lower. but to change that... first, it's funding schools properly, which is really important. but also it's about dealing with overcrowded homes, you know, children who are struggling to feed themselves. if i was seven years old again today, and i was living in the conditions which you describe as, you knew friends, but i knew and i lived myself, would i...? i'm not talking about the people i grew up with. i'm talking about my community, is what i'm talking about. no, no, no, but you grew up with them. i was them. if that was today, would i want, like, you know — i'm speaking whole heartedly — would i want a conservative majority government to come back, and would i think that they would make my life better? yes, because i think there would be
a lot closer to new labour, which actually gave me the life that i got. the tories have made these things worse. they've cut funding and they've made the housing crisis worse and child poverty has gone up. shall we pull a cracker? ok, shall we do that? yeah. great. which cracker do you want to pull? the red one, let's assume. yeah, the socialist cracker, is that what you want? no, i want a fairer society, which is not going to happen under corbyn. come on. ok. wooh, you won! there we go. let's hope that's a harbinger of things to come. how was it? interesting. was it interesting? yeah. ok. was it not interesting? no. oh! but we disagree, that's the point. we can't help it! you know, i'm a socialist. i'm a socialist. but what you believe in is not socialism. i don't think you're a socialist. what? i believe in the welfare system. i believe in taxation. welcome, comrade! yeah. yeah, time to go. will you see each other again? probably in the street. i'm not sure if i want to...
i'll say hello to you. i'll buy you a pint. that's very sweet. all right, i'll buy you a pint. that's so good of you. honestly, i would, i would. that's very kind. cos i'm sure we probably would agree on stuff. will you exchange numbers so you can go for that pint, guys? no. i think you're all right, aren't we? oh, my gosh, it's so cold! boom! there we go. all done. catch up with all the election by date by going to our programme page. in a speech later today, the prime minister will warn there's a "clear and present" danger of another hung parliament — that's where no party has overall control and can't therefore easily get their plans through the commons — if voters don't turn out to support the conservatives on thursday. on a campaign visit to staffordshire, he'll tell supporters there are "well—financed" efforts to prevent a tory majority through tactical voting. but what is tactical voting, who does it,
and — more to the point — does it work? here's hugh grant — who's been urging people to do it. everyone in the country where a tory can be beaten, they have to be beaten. i'm terrified. i think in any country faces an emergency. that was quite a short clip, wasn't expecting it to end quite there. we can speak to becky snowden who founded the website tacticalvote.co.uk which encourages the electorate to vote tactically to " kick the tories out of government', lance forman, an mep for london who was elected for the brexit party, but is now urging voters to back the conservatives, james ball a journalist and author who thinks tactical voting is not such a good idea, and chris curtis from the polling organization yougov. first of all, what is tactical voting? tactical voting is when you have a look and see in your constituency who actually has a chance of winning because in our electoral system u nfortu nately you can't vote for your first preference and hope they will be able to win.
ina lot and hope they will be able to win. in a lot of seats, is a competition between labour and the conservatives or the lib dems and the conservatives. and if you prefer the lib dems but you look in your constituency, it is between labour and conservative, you'd give your vote to labour because you know your first choice can't win. understood. and to finances your website? we are a crowd funded. users of the site, people who believe in what we are doing, they fund our website. would it be fairto doing, they fund our website. would it be fair to say it would be people who would never vote conservative necessary? yes, that's right. right, let's bring in james necessary? yes, that's right. right, let's bring injames ball. you're not mad on it, why? part of the problem is people who support tactical voting are propping up a syste m tactical voting are propping up a system they say they hate. we have an electoral system where most peoples votes won't matter whether they vote tactically or not. and also we have smaller parties that wa nt also we have smaller parties that want to break through. three quarters of us vote for the biggest
two parties but both leaders had very heavily negative figures. voters are holding their nose and voting for which one they hate leased and if you hold your nose for long enough, you pass out and dive. ok. so, you say simply vote for the party you believe in. if you eventually want the electoral system to change, if you want smaller parties to have a chance, every election has got to come around and there has been an argument for tactical voting but the evidence is it only moves a very small number of votes so we keep focusing on these few hundred instead of trying to make the big argument to win over thousands. and we don't have the proof to show that tactical voting does have much effect. this is not like any other election. we have the risk of boris's awful no deal or brexit deal and that is what people tend to agree on that they don't wa nt tend to agree on that they don't want that to happen. this is pretty much our only chance to stop that.
also, if you don't like tactically voting, i understand i don't doing it either, but if you do it and it works and the party like the lib dems ends up being able to help, say, a labour minority government to pass certain things, they could say we will support that policy if we get electoral reform. lance foreman, you are elected for the brexit party is one of their meps and you're urging voters to back the conservatives. you believe in tactical voting? i believe in brexit, actually, and it is only the conservatives that can get brexit delivered. the brexit party in the conservative party are splitting the leave vote which is a huge danger because if that means that labour win those seats, which are split, we won't get brexit, and we will get this terrible quagmire we have had for the last few years dragging on. there are people who don't like boris johnson's withdrawal agreement and would like to vote for the brexit party. they may not like it
but the fact of the matter is the brexit party are not in a position to deliver it. do think nigel farage should have stood down all your candidates, then? sometimes you have to go with your brain rather than with your head. at time nigel farage should have focused on perhaps the 20 seats where the brexit party stood a chance of winning. it is now all over the place and the only way you can guarantee if you want brexit, to guarantee it is if boris johnson has a significant majority. chris curtis, does tactical voting work? if it is done effectively and if it is done on a large enough scale, yes, it could theoretically work. are you saying it hasn't so far in this country? historically it hasn't been the big effect, it isn't as big a driving force in elections as big a driving force in elections as all of those other things, leadership, brexit, all of that. it'll have more of an effect this time around than it ever has before because we have this large number of what we are calling motivated remainer is, people not so loyal to their political parties and are more
loyal to their brexit position. hard remainer is. whatever you want to call them and they are engaged in politics so they're more likely to go around to look up the kind of things you need to look up in order to work out how to vote tactically. we have a lot more actors, one of them on your show this morning, who are pushing this narrative and encouraging people to tactical vote so encouraging people to tactical vote so it'll have more of an effect this time around than before. still not going to be the most important thing of the election. there are some hard remainers but there are two big issues in this election, one is brexit and the other one is a fear ofjeremy corbyn and there are a lot ofjeremy corbyn and there are a lot of conservatives don't make there are more issues than that. there is climate, that is another one.” certainly know a lot of remain tories that are so afraid ofjeremy corbyn, they'd rather vote for boris johnson and have brexit than have jeremy corbyn. so, you know, it goes deeper than that. to go beyond the mechanics of it, we should note
there are quite a lot of tactical voting sites which don't agree with each other and there is a lot of volatile constituencies. there are constituencies that moved by tens of thousands of votes between 2015 and 2017. when we have this little idea of what is motivating people and this much uncertainty, and all the pollsters will tell you there is a lot of uncertainty out there, it is every chance these tactical voting places could narrowly snatch some seats away from the viable candidate as well as take it. do you accept that, becky? that is unlikely. the tactical seats are about 95% of the seats. they line up when it matters. only a few seats line—up. we line up in enough marginal seats if people vote tactically then we can change the outcome. do you want to respond? it is easy to try to say when you
believe in something and you want it to work that it'll work on the evidence. i've no doubt the sincerity of the people behind it. it isjust sincerity of the people behind it. it is just an sincerity of the people behind it. it isjust an unproven sincerity of the people behind it. it is just an unproven thing sincerity of the people behind it. it isjust an unproven thing and in a very volatile election, distracts from trying to win people over because of their beliefs rather than trying to tell them to do something the least worst when people don't trust politics and they don't like politics, giving such a sort of mealy—mouthed message seems part of the problem in a way.” mealy—mouthed message seems part of the problem in a way. i was going to say, a final thing, there is a fairly comfortable lead for the conservatives in the polls. but pollsters have been wrong before. the consensus is around ten points, they could close the gap, i agree but on that kind of lead, it isn't going to force a hung parliament. they need an increase in the labour vote share and that gap to close for tactical voting to make a difference but at the moment the conservatives are too farahead. but at the moment the conservatives are too far ahead. on twitter, "real tactical voting is looking at the
2017 results and voting on who is best placed to beating the conservatives as opposed to the kind of tactical voting where right—wingers pour money into disinformation websites and you vote based on that". it says, "unless you have prior knowledge of the result, you never know tactical voting works". ian says i'll vote for the lib dems but if i lived in a labour marginal advert for the conservatives. thank you very much and we'll see if it has had any impact on thursday. this morning co—hosts phillip schofield and holly willoughby say there's no rift between them, after claims their relationship has become strained. newsbeat‘s nesta mcgregor is here. what are these rumours then? i think we can all be honest and say there are people and we spend our day with them because we are paid to do so. anyone at work will agree. they've worked together for ten yea rs. ever they've worked together for ten years. ever so they've worked together for ten yea rs. ever so recently
they've worked together for ten years. ever so recently there have been lots of newspaper report saying that as soon as the cameras are off, the smells are gone and they no longer get on. there has been a real strain put on the relationship. there was claims that phil was jealous of holly‘s success because she started off working with him ten yea rs she started off working with him ten years ago and has been elevated to one of the premier presenters in the uk. just lots of things saying the relationship probably isn't what it was in the past, there was some strain on it and they were not getting on as they are used to. they spoken about it now, they've spoken about it last night. millions of people watch these two daily and something that is undeniable when you watch them is the chemistry. there are always smiling, giggling. their flagship there are always smiling, giggling. theirflagship show that there are always smiling, giggling. their flagship show that they present, and also dancing on ice is another one they present, they launched yesterday and categorically denied there were any rift at all. phil called her the sister he never had. then throw called the relationship perfect pointing out when the show ends they go on holiday together. here's what they had to say yesterday at the launch
of dancing on ice. it is so obvious she is like the sister i never had. i adore working with her. she is perfect. we are very lucky. no doubt about it. you can do the amount of hours of tv we do with each other, you know, without getting on. it would just be impossible and also then once we finish we get a break in the summerand then once we finish we get a break in the summer and we go on holiday together! you'd think we are sick of the site of each other! and in the new year is half an hour longer. so, anyone who says any different is lying? they may be mistaken. so, he didn't say mistaken. spending all those hours together there must be times when they clash heads or don't necessarily get along but they say for the most part the relationship is what it has always been. they go on holiday together, always on one another‘s social media. smiling
there and i think they were genuine as well. lots ofjournalists trying to pick holes as they are presenting trying to see if there was any tension but i couldn't see any. thank you very much, cheers. a falklands veteran who had his war medals taken off him when was forced out of the royal navy for being gay is to have them returned. sixty—eight—year—old joe ousalice who is bi—sexual, has now received an official apology from the ministry of defence. he was discharged from the navy in 1993 for "conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline" despite being in the navy for 17 years when there was a ban on lgbt people serving in the armed forces. he is back on the programme and i'm happy to see you again. hello. and emma norton is here from liberty, and you've been helping joe. you've been fighting this for 26 years. you finally have an apology from the
ministry of defence, they will give you the met medal back, how are you feeling? i feel very you the met medal back, how are you feeling? i feelvery happy you the met medal back, how are you feeling? i feel very happy about it. it is one step forward. only one step? there are problems with it. i would like... an apology from somebody in a higher authority. it was a rear somebody in a higher authority. it wasa rearadmiral somebody in a higher authority. it was a rear admiral that gave me the middle. it was an admiral that took the middle of me so i'd like it from somebody of equal importance. are they suggesting it'll be someone from a lower ranking? yes, i believe it'll be from a captain. right. you've been fighting for such a long time to even get this far. why has it taken so long? the intransigence of the ministry of defence, plus i didn't know the legal arguments to use. and, two years ago, i got in touch with liberty and emma, and she
has taken the case on board for me, and we threaten to take the ministry of defence to the courts. and, obviously, they have given way. joe has been on our programme before, not sitting alongside someone like yourself. what do you think has changed? yourself. what do you think has changed ? it yourself. what do you think has changed? it did change last week. yourself. what do you think has changed? it did change last weekm did. the ministry of defence were originally defending this claim very aggressively, it has to be said, not giving any indication they wanted to settle it. last week, suddenly, everything changed. i think it is releva nt everything changed. i think it is relevant that in january it everything changed. i think it is relevant that injanuary it is everything changed. i think it is relevant that in january it is the 20th anniversary of the lifting of the ban on lgbt people serving in the ban on lgbt people serving in the armed forces and i wonder and i speculative there was something unattractive about the mod celebrating that at the same time as vigorously defending a perfectly reasonable claim brought by someone like joe, but we are very glad that they have settled this claim. they will give jo his middle back and most importantly in some ways joe
has ensured they are also going to introduce a policy whereby other lg bt veterans can introduce a policy whereby other lgbt veterans can also apply to have their medals back as well. how do you feel about that? because of what you've done! yes, yes stop at all those lgbt you've done! yes, yes stop at all those lg bt veterans you've done! yes, yes stop at all those lgbt veterans are going to get some semblance of justice those lgbt veterans are going to get some semblance ofjustice because of your fight. some semblance ofjustice because of yourfight. indeed, some semblance ofjustice because of your fight. indeed, yes, some semblance ofjustice because of yourfight. indeed, yes, so it has worked out well in the end. tell our audience how they treated you at the time. it was abysmal. every couple of years they would drag me in and make some story up in an attempt to get shot of me. they knew i was bisexual. and by hook or by crook, they dragged me in. on one occasion, icame they dragged me in. on one occasion, i came back from two and a half yea rs i came back from two and a half years with the nato fleet, i hadn't been back in the uk for two and a half years and come yet, the day i got back in, they claimed they'd seen me got back in, they claimed they'd seen me in a pub in portsmouth doing drugs. i've never touched drugs in
my life. it shows you the level of what they get up to. they were just trying to find some reason to get rid of you? yes. i think they start by association, you know, somebody you may have met, they'd been watching them, and then you are on the red from then on. i remember the first three years of being in the forces, my girlfriend lived in plymouth. and i went and stayed with her, at her parents, on the sunday. on the monday, when we got into portsmouth, the sib was on my back. the military police. they said i had beenin the military police. they said i had been in bristol. for the weekend. i said, no, i haven't, i've been with my girlfriend at her parents. they even my girlfriend at her parents. they eve n we nt my girlfriend at her parents. they even went behind my back and asked the parents had i been with them and they mentioned that i was gay to
them. you can imagine what effect that had on the relationship. finally, emma, who sent a freedom of information request to the mod to find out how many people were affected in the wayjoe has been, so what was the response? they refused to give us that information on the basis it would cost too much to pull the information together but we've been contacted by lots of people who are directly affected by this horrible policy and who knew lots of people who are directly affected, and what is clear is that it had a devastating impact on a lot of lives. ok. i read tweets, "i find this appalling and demeaning. sorry, thatis this appalling and demeaning. sorry, that is about a different subject. joe, thank you very much. emma, thank you very much. let's talk to norman smith and the recording of jon ashworth talking to a conservative supporting friend. is
going to dominate the penultimate day of campaigning? it is and it is striking how in this campaign which has been so carefully scripted and choreographed by the parties, in the dying embers of the campaign, suddenly events have burst into it and change the dynamic. yesterday with the photos of jack lying on the hospital floor, today without recording ofjon ashworth by someone who was meant to be his friend but clearly knew his views onjeremy corbyn, and, basically, itamounts to what looks pretty much like a sting because this individual is a conservative activist, former chairman of the canterbury conservative party. nevertheless, the remarks are out there and they are damning because here you have jon ashworth, the man who is meant to be fronting their attack on the nhs, basically saying they haven't a hope of winning, that voters believe they blocked brexit and they don't likejeremy they blocked brexit and they don't like jeremy corbyn and they blocked brexit and they don't likejeremy corbyn and perhaps most damning of all seeming to suggest
jeremy corbyn is actually a risk to national security. jon ashworth hopes the political machine, the civil service, will step in work you to become prime minister to make sure that doesn't happen. so, yes, this is absolutely going to dominate the headlines today. thank you very much, norman. norman smith, thank you. thank you for your company. we are back tomorrow. bbc newsroom live is coming up next. have a lovely day. strong rain and gusts across the west of scotland. we will see those strong winds continuing across
northern and western areas, windy for all of us today with patchy rain initially moving its way across east anglia and the south east of england during the afternoon by the rain will be heavier across scotland, through northern ireland, the isle of man, spreading its way south and east but along with these strong gusts of wind and gales, touching severe gales in one or two places. temperatures today generally about 9-13. it is temperatures today generally about 9—13. it is through this evening that we see this band of rain, intense rainfall for a time, moving towards the south—east, eventually clearing, and we're left with some clever disguise, turning chilly tonight compared to last night especially, temperatures down to 3-5. and especially, temperatures down to 3—5. and a touch of frost across scotland. throughout wednesday there could be wintry showers across scotla nd could be wintry showers across scotland and elsewhere a mixture of sunny spells and showers, and feeling chilly for most us.
you re watching bbc newsroom live. it's11am and these are the main stories this morning. up to 1a people are now feared to have died after the volcanic eruption in new zealand. the country's prime minister says ‘questions must be asked' in a crucial day of campaigning, borisjohnson warns of a hung parliament if voters don't support the conservatives. labour promises a ‘relentless focus' on the nhs if they win. the shadow health secretary, jonathan ashworth, insists he was ‘joshing around' when telling a friend there was no way labour could win the election — in a secretly recorded phone conversation. he was seeing lee tories are going to lose and i was saying, no, you are going to be fine. joshing, as