hello, and welcome to the programme which brings together leading uk commentators with the foreign correspondents who write, blog and broadcast from the dateline: london. this week, political apologies and their consequences. 40% of borisjohnson�*s mps say it isn't enough to say sorry — he should quit. we'll be discussing why history may be on the british prime minister's side. and in africa, the king of belgium voices his "deepest regret" over the "abuse and humiliation" caused

in what is now the drc by his family and other belgians. why do those who colonised find it so hard to say sorry? in the studio are stefanie bolzen, uk and ireland correspondent for the german media group die welt. marc roche, who writes for the french news magazine le point. adam raphael, who began reporting on uk politics in 1976, the last year to date, in which a british prime minister left office by choice. thanks very much forjoining us, and welcome to everyone. let me start with you, adam. on the question of boris�*s apparent survival and certainly survival for now. he says he is getting on with the job. now. he says he is getting on with thejob. is thisjust now. he says he is getting on with the job. is this just a display of what one might call boris bravura or is he right to think that his enemies perhaps moved a bit too soon? , , ., ., enemies perhaps moved a bit too soon? , .,y . ., ., ., enemies perhaps moved a bit too soon? , ., ., soon? they may have moved too soon to kick him out. _ soon? they may have moved too soon to kick him out, but _ soon? they may have moved too soon to kick him out, but actually _ to kick him out, but actually i think his position is unsustainable. my think his position is unsustainable. my own view is that he will be out before the end of the year. the fact

is if you look at this important mass of it, 211 voted for boris, but of those 211, 170 no less are on the payroll vote. he has a0 or 50 independent votes will people have voted against him, they got 1a8, three times as many. three times as independent tory mps voted against him. that is unsustainable, and if you look at what happened in the past, iain duncan smith, theresa may, john major they all were out very soon after confidence votes. and of course mrs thatcher was challenged for the leadership as well and she was out as well. once a party is totally divided, as the conservative party is now, it is externally difficult to recover. the other interesting thing, and if this sounds hostile to boris, who i've known for many years and find a charming and funny like many others, he always has applied himself out of

trouble. he continues to lie. what worries me about him now as it is notjust lying, it is almost fantasy politics. he describes this result as extremely positive, decisive, conclusive. as though it was some kind of triumph. well, successful liars, at least you've got to have a plausible story. you mustn't be found out immediately. i think he is beginning to lose his touch. quite apart from any of that, he is faced by how horrendous the political situation, two by—elections which he is capable of losing coming up in tiverton and in wakefield. and he has got a cost of living crisis in this country which we have not seen since post—war britain. so i would be really very surprised if he was able to sustain his position, because the conservative party, one thing it does do very well, it has a

link and a range to power. if they think boris is a loser, as i think they are beginning to realise that he will be at the next election, they will get rid of him.- he will be at the next election, they will get rid of him. what did ou make they will get rid of him. what did you make of _ they will get rid of him. what did you make of this _ they will get rid of him. what did you make of this result? - they will get rid of him. what did you make of this result? how - they will get rid of him. what did you make of this result? how do | they will get rid of him. what did - you make of this result? how do you try to explain it to your audience? i honestly have been a bit more cautious— i honestly have been a bit more cautious about announcing that this is now_ cautious about announcing that this is now the — cautious about announcing that this is now the last chapter. because they have — is now the last chapter. because they have been so many last chapters in the _ they have been so many last chapters in the test— they have been so many last chapters in the last two years. it is they have been so many last chapters in the last two years.— in the last two years. it is like a book of last _ in the last two years. it is like a book of last chapters! - in the last two years. it is like a book of last chapters! it - in the last two years. it is like a book of last chapters! it has - in the last two years. it is like a| book of last chapters! it has felt in the last two years. it is like a i book of last chapters! it has felt a bit like groundhog _ book of last chapters! it has felt a bit like groundhog day. _ book of last chapters! it has felt a bit like groundhog day. you - book of last chapters! it has felt a bit like groundhog day. you have| bit like groundhog day. you have seen _ bit like groundhog day. you have seen this— bit like groundhog day. you have seen this before, you have seen the prime _ seen this before, you have seen the prime minister going to the cabinet and saying," we will do the wishes of the _ and saying," we will do the wishes of the people." i am cautious and would _ of the people." i am cautious and would not — of the people." i am cautious and would not bet any money, i know the brits love _ would not bet any money, i know the brits love betting, i was loose so i don'tn _ brits love betting, i was loose so i don't,. there is a lot of historical parallels— don't,. there is a lot of historical parallels are for example with theresa — parallels are for example with theresa may, that was a completely different _ theresa may, that was a completely different circumstance. there was one different circumstance. there was ohe factioh— different circumstance. there was one faction of the parliamentary group _ one faction of the parliamentary group that really wanted her out, they succeeded and were very

targeted. while with this revolution or rebellion against boris, it was very difficult to describe, lots of wigs _ very difficult to describe, lots of wigs standing up and are saying we don't _ wigs standing up and are saying we don't want — wigs standing up and are saying we don't want this any more. but he is an extraordinary politician, different to everybody else. maybe he still _ different to everybody else. maybe he still might be around for the next _ he still might be around for the next election.— he still might be around for the next election. ~ ., , ., ., ., next election. mark, do you have an exotanation — next election. mark, do you have an exotanation to _ next election. mark, do you have an explanation to readers _ next election. mark, do you have an explanation to readers in _ next election. mark, do you have an explanation to readers in france - next election. mark, do you have an j explanation to readers in france and in belgium of the political phenomenon that is borisjohnson? the problem i think is that the french— the problem i think is that the french are _ the problem i think is that the french are divided _ the problem i think is that the french are divided about - the problem i think is that the french are divided about him. | the problem i think is that the i french are divided about him. on the problem i think is that the - french are divided about him. on the one hand. _ french are divided about him. on the one hand. they— french are divided about him. on the one hand, they like _ french are divided about him. on the one hand, they like his _ french are divided about him. on the one hand, they like his politics, - french are divided about him. on the one hand, they like his politics, he i one hand, they like his politics, he is funny— one hand, they like his politics, he is funny and — one hand, they like his politics, he is funnyand he— one hand, they like his politics, he is funny and he is _ one hand, they like his politics, he is funny and he is a _ one hand, they like his politics, he is funny and he is a francophile, . one hand, they like his politics, he is funny and he is a francophile, a| is funny and he is a francophile, a francophone, _ is funny and he is a francophile, a francophone, he _ is funny and he is a francophile, a francophone, he is— is funny and he is a francophile, a francophone, he is the _ is funny and he is a francophile, a francophone, he is the opposite l is funny and he is a francophile, ai francophone, he is the opposite of is funny and he is a francophile, a . francophone, he is the opposite of a frenth— francophone, he is the opposite of a french politician— francophone, he is the opposite of a french politician like _ francophone, he is the opposite of a french politician like emmanuel- french politician like emmanuel macron— french politician like emmanuel macron or— french politician like emmanuel macron or francois _ french politician like emmanuel macron or francois hollande - french politician like emmanuel macron or francois hollande ori macron or francois hollande or sarkozy — macron or francois hollande or sarkozy. silly— macron or francois hollande or sarkozy. silly like _ macron or francois hollande or sarkozy. silly like that. - macron or francois hollande or sarkozy. silly like that. on- macron or francois hollande or sarkozy. silly like that. on the| sarkozy. silly like that. on the other— sarkozy. silly like that. on the other hand. _ sarkozy. silly like that. on the other hand, may— sarkozy. silly like that. on the other hand, may perceive - sarkozy. silly like that. on the . other hand, may perceive him as sarkozy. silly like that. on the - other hand, may perceive him as a lout other hand, may perceive him as a tout because — other hand, may perceive him as a lout because of— other hand, may perceive him as a lout because of brexit, _ other hand, may perceive him as a lout because of brexit, he - other hand, may perceive him as a lout because of brexit, he is - lout because of brexit, he is provoking _ lout because of brexit, he is provoking a _ lout because of brexit, he is provoking a terrible - lout because of brexit, he is provoking a terrible crisis i lout because of brexit, he is i provoking a terrible crisis with lout because of brexit, he is - provoking a terrible crisis with the european — provoking a terrible crisis with the european union _ provoking a terrible crisis with the european union by— provoking a terrible crisis with the european union by revoking - provoking a terrible crisis with the european union by revoking de i provoking a terrible crisis with the .

european union by revoking de facto the northern— european union by revoking de facto the northern ireland _ european union by revoking de facto the northern ireland protocol. - european union by revoking de facto the northern ireland protocol. that. the northern ireland protocol. that le . islation the northern ireland protocol. that legislation on _ the northern ireland protocol. legislation on monday, we the northern ireland protocol. tiiij�*h legislation on monday, we will the northern ireland protocol.- legislation on monday, we will find out what is in it.— out what is in it. and he is accountable _ out what is in it. and he is accountable for _ out what is in it. and he is accountable for the - out what is in it. and he is accountable for the worst | out what is in it. and he is - accountable for the worst crisis in bilateral— accountable for the worst crisis in bilateral relationships _ accountable for the worst crisis in bilateral relationships between i bilateral relationships between france — bilateral relationships between france and _ bilateral relationships between france and the _ bilateral relationships between france and the uk _ bilateral relationships between france and the uk since - bilateral relationships betweenl france and the uk since charles bilateral relationships between - france and the uk since charles de gaulle _ france and the uk since charles de gaulle refused _ france and the uk since charles de gaulle refused the _ france and the uk since charles de gaulle refused the brits _ france and the uk since charles de gaulle refused the brits in - france and the uk since charles de gaulle refused the brits in the - gaulle refused the brits in the european _ gaulle refused the brits in the european community. - gaulle refused the brits in the european community. so - gaulle refused the brits in the european community. so it. gaulle refused the brits in the european community. so it is| european community. so it is divided — european community. so it is divided but— european community. so it is divided. but more _ european community. so it is divided. but more and - european community. so it is divided. but more and more. european community. so it is- divided. but more and more people are telling — divided. but more and more people are telling me. _ divided. but more and more people are telling me, when _ divided. but more and more people are telling me, when they- divided. but more and more people are telling me, when they asked i divided. but more and more peoplel are telling me, when they asked me about— are telling me, when they asked me about boris, — are telling me, when they asked me about boris, they— are telling me, when they asked me about boris, they tell— are telling me, when they asked me about boris, they tell me, _ are telling me, when they asked me about boris, they tell me, "he - are telling me, when they asked me about boris, they tell me, "he is. about boris, they tell me, "he is dead, _ about boris, they tell me, "he is dead. isn't— about boris, they tell me, "he is dead, isn't he? _ about boris, they tell me, "he is dead, isn't he? he _ about boris, they tell me, "he is dead, isn't he? he cannot- about boris, they tell me, "he isi dead, isn't he? he cannot survive being _ dead, isn't he? he cannot survive being a _ dead, isn't he? he cannot survive being a serial— dead, isn't he? he cannot survive being a serial liar." _ dead, isn't he? he cannot survive being a serial liar." in— dead, isn't he? he cannot survive being a serial liar." in french - being a serial liar." in french politics. _ being a serial liar." in french politics. one _ being a serial liar." in french politics, one never— being a serial liar." in french politics, one never lies! - politics, one never lies! laughtfr— laughter adam, there is a line isn't there, precisely because this rebellion was so broad, that it lacked the depth and the focus. in a sense, the rebels have now played their hand. any other mp who might oppose him may think, "what is the point of declaring it? just to be frozen out by number 10 declaring it? just to be frozen out by number10 and declaring it? just to be frozen out by number 10 and we will not get rid of him anyway. is that he is so stubborn and determined and he could

even, only because he now has the power again, the fixed—term parliaments act has been revoked, if his party became really difficult, he could just take his appeal directly to the country, go to the queen and ask for parliament to be dissolved. she constitutionally would have to that. he accept goes to the country and basically defies his own rebels. he has that kind of risk taken. he his own rebels. he has that kind of risk taken. , ., ., ~ his own rebels. he has that kind of risk taken. , ., ., ,, , risk taken. he is a risk taker, but that will be _ risk taken. he is a risk taker, but that will be one risk _ risk taken. he is a risk taker, but that will be one risk too - risk taken. he is a risk taker, but that will be one risk too many, . that will be one risk too many, because the stage an election in defiance of his own party stop i think we have to start listening to what the tory associations are saying all around the country. one of the reasons why this big vote against him was as large as it was was because they have been back to their constituencies and they have listened to their own loyal, true conservative members. they frankly are horrified by what has been going on. if the situation in this country was better in terms of the economy, in terms of other areas, it is just possible he might be able to, i think, survive it. the fact is we are in favour really, really rough

situation now. i think there are valid point you make is that you are quite right that this was a very disparate opposition to him. there is not a focus to it, and that is why i think the next few months are going to be extremely messy but very interesting journalistically. 2st going to be extremely messy but very interesting journalistically.— interesting “ournalistically. 24 you . u s interesting “ournalistically. 24 you au s to interesting journalistically. 24 you guys to write _ interesting journalistically. 24 you guys to write about. _ interesting journalistically. 24 you guys to write about. let's - interesting journalistically. 24 you guys to write about. let's move i interesting journalistically. 24 you | guys to write about. let's move on to the economy, because that is the one aspect of this he can't control, however he might wish to. we have the oecd report this week saying that the british economy will perform next year the worst of the g7 countries. perform next year the worst of the g7 countries— perform next year the worst of the g7 countries._ and | perform next year the worst of the i g7 countries._ and you g7 countries. except russia. and you could argue — g7 countries. except russia. and you could argue that _ g7 countries. except russia. and you could argue that russia _ g7 countries. except russia. and you could argue that russia has - g7 countries. except russia. and you could argue that russia has its - could argue that russia has its rating circumstances. the economy is effectively being frozen out of the world economy by sanctions and so on. that is not the uk's problem, but what is the uk's problem? what do you think? you have been studying the british economy, its strengths and weaknesses for many years. i wrote a piece of this week saying

that britain— wrote a piece of this week saying that britain is— wrote a piece of this week saying that britain is again _ wrote a piece of this week saying that britain is again at _ wrote a piece of this week saying that britain is again at the - wrote a piece of this week saying that britain is again at the sick i that britain is again at the sick ntan— that britain is again at the sick man of— that britain is again at the sick man of europe _ that britain is again at the sick man of europe. this _ that britain is again at the sick man of europe. this was - that britain is again at the sick man of europe. this was the l that britain is again at the sick - man of europe. this was the ottoman empire _ man of europe. this was the ottoman empire before — man of europe. this was the ottoman empire before world _ man of europe. this was the ottoman empire before world war— man of europe. this was the ottoman empire before world war i— man of europe. this was the ottoman empire before world war i and - man of europe. this was the ottoman empire before world war i and was. empire before world war i and was the situation — empire before world war i and was the situation before _ empire before world war i and was the situation before thatcher- empire before world war i and was the situation before thatcher tookl the situation before thatcher took over in _ the situation before thatcher took over in the — the situation before thatcher took over in the 19705. _ the situation before thatcher took over in the 19705. stagflation, - over in the 19705. stagflation, inflation — over in the 19705. stagflation, inflation 10%, _ over in the 19705. stagflation, inflation 10%, growth - over in the 19705. stagflation, inflation 10%, growth down i over in the 19705. stagflation,| inflation 10%, growth down 5% over in the 19705. stagflation, i inflation 10%, growth down 5% in over in the 19705. stagflation, - inflation 10%, growth down 5% in the last quarter — inflation 10%, growth down 5% in the last quarter of — inflation 10%, growth down 5% in the last quarter of 2021. _ inflation 10%, growth down 5% in the last quarter of 2021. the?— inflation 10%, growth down 596 in the last quarter of 2021.— last quarter of 2021. they are predicting _ last quarter of 2021. they are predicting no _ last quarter of 2021. they are predicting no growth - last quarter of 2021. they are predicting no growth next - last quarter of 2021. they are l predicting no growth next year. last quarter of 2021. they are - predicting no growth next year. no growth at all, 5trive repetitive, a commercial— growth at all, 5trive repetitive, a commercial war— growth at all, 5trive repetitive, a commercial war with— growth at all, 5trive repetitive, a commercial war with europe - growth at all, 5trive repetitive, a - commercial war with europe looming, if not _ commercial war with europe looming, if not already— commercial war with europe looming, if not already there _ commercial war with europe looming, if not already there because _ commercial war with europe looming, if not already there because of- if not already there because of brexit — if not already there because of brexit and _ if not already there because of brexit. and the _ if not already there because of brexit. and the only— if not already there because of brexit. and the only thing - if not already there because of brexit. and the only thing he i if not already there because of. brexit. and the only thing he has if not already there because of- brexit. and the only thing he has to provide _ brexit. and the only thing he has to provide is _ brexit. and the only thing he has to provide is going _ brexit. and the only thing he has to provide is going back— brexit. and the only thing he has to provide is going back to _ brexit. and the only thing he has to provide is going back to imperial. provide is going back to imperial measures — provide is going back to imperial mea5ure5. this— provide is going back to imperial mea5ure5. thi5 delusion - provide is going back to imperial mea5ure5. thi5 delusion of - provide is going back to imperial- mea5ure5. thi5 delusion of grandeur, of nostalgia. — mea5ure5. thi5 delusion of grandeur, of nostalgia, while _ mea5ure5. thi5 delusion of grandeur, of nostalgia, while the _ mea5ure5. thi5 delusion of grandeur, of nostalgia, while the economy - mea5ure5. thi5 delusion of grandeur, of nostalgia, while the economy is i of nostalgia, while the economy is going _ of nostalgia, while the economy is going nowhere _ of nostalgia, while the economy is going nowhere is— of nostalgia, while the economy is going nowhere is quite _ of nostalgia, while the economy is going nowhere is quite typical- of nostalgia, while the economy is going nowhere is quite typical of. going nowhere is quite typical of boris _ going nowhere is quite typical of boris johnson _ going nowhere is quite typical of borisjohnson. very— going nowhere is quite typical of boris johnson. very pe55imi5tic| bori5johnson. very pessimistic about— borisjohnson. very pessimistic about the — borisjohnson. very pessimistic about the economy, _ borisjohnson. very pessimistic about the economy, that - borisjohnson. very pessimistic about the economy, that couldl boris johnson. very pe55imi5tic - about the economy, that could bring him down _ about the economy, that could bring him down l— about the economy, that could bring him down. ., , ., about the economy, that could bring him down. . , ., ~' him down. i agree with you. i think ou have him down. i agree with you. i think you have summed _ him down. i agree with you. i think you have summed it _ him down. i agree with you. i think you have summed it up _ him down. i agree with you. i think you have summed it up very - him down. i agree with you. i think you have summed it up very well. i think the economy is in a terrible state, the difficulty forjohnson,

he is not really, nothing the conservative party begin to realise, he is not really a conservative. he is a john sony. that is one of the reasons for this degree of great distrust of what he is up to. there is no trust for him and he is confronted by some incredibly difficult decisions. the conservatives are traditionally a tax—cutting party, they cannot cut taxes at this moment unless they started borrowing huge sums of money, which in itself would be found and conservative. there is no way out of this cul—de—sac that he finds himself in. that is through no fault of his own, but his character defects, unafraid, plus the fact this is public weakest cabinet i have seen since post—war britain, it doesn't really help. i have no confidence that they are going to get out of this mess. i confidence that they are going to get out of this mess.— confidence that they are going to get out of this mess. i mean, i have not been get out of this mess. i mean, i have rrot been here _ get out of this mess. i mean, i have not been here as _ get out of this mess. i mean, i have not been here as long _ get out of this mess. i mean, i have not been here as long reporting, - get out of this mess. i mean, i have | not been here as long reporting, but if i ntav— not been here as long reporting, but if i may say, — not been here as long reporting, but if i may say, one of the first things— if i may say, one of the first things i_ if i may say, one of the first things i was reporting wa5

things i was reporting was going north— things i was reporting was going north and — things i was reporting was going north and being taken by the british government to take the northern powerhouse, that was the key word of the day _ powerhouse, that was the key word of the day. every new government, and don't _ the day. every new government, and don't forget — the day. every new government, and don't forget the conservatives are now in— don't forget the conservatives are now in power for 12 years, and every new prime _ now in power for 12 years, and every new prime minister is a new idea for how to _ new prime minister is a new idea for how to do _ new prime minister is a new idea for how to do real 5tructural reform. there _ how to do real 5tructural reform. there is— how to do real 5tructural reform. there is a — how to do real 5tructural reform. there is a lot of nice 5logan5, the boris _ there is a lot of nice 5logan5, the borisjohnson it was "let'5 there is a lot of nice 5logan5, the borisjohnson it was "let's get bori5johnson it was "let's get brexit— borisjohnson it was "let's get brexit done" and never the country up, especially the north, but they haven't— up, especially the north, but they haven't done anything. here in london. — haven't done anything. here in london, we live quite well. but if you go— london, we live quite well. but if you go quite north, there is real poverty— you go quite north, there is real poverty there. children do not have to eat _ poverty there. children do not have to eat now — poverty there. children do not have to eat now with the energy prices, parents _ to eat now with the energy prices, parents have to choose whether to heat their— parents have to choose whether to heat their house or give their children— heat their house or give their children food. many children get to school _ children food. many children get to school in _ children food. many children get to school in the morning and are hungry — school in the morning and are hungry. thi5 school in the morning and are hungry. this is the real avalanche that is— hungry. this is the real avalanche that is coming, deny we are in summer _ that is coming, deny we are in summer. let'5 to that is coming, deny we are in summer. let's to autumn and winter and it— summer. let's to autumn and winter and it is— summer. let's to autumn and winter and it is a _ summer. let's to autumn and winter and it is a very— summer. let's to autumn and winter and it is a very wasted word, but the autumn— and it is a very wasted word, but the autumn or winter of discontent. but i _ the autumn or winter of discontent. but i am _ the autumn or winter of discontent. but i am more worried about what is coming _ but i am more worried about what is coming ln _ but i am more worried about what is cominu. , ., _, ., . coming. in terms of the economic o tions, coming. in terms of the economic options. the _ coming. in terms of the economic options, the oecd _ coming. in terms of the economic options, the oecd effectively - coming. in terms of the economic| options, the oecd effectively have given the british government cover,

haven't they? if you wanted to back away from some of his policy choices already, likely increases in taxation planned for the next few months, he could do it. but one wonders whether he has, whether his party would tolerate that, given the divisions on display in the last few months. , ., , , ., ., months. the problem is the governor ofthe months. the problem is the governor of the ltank — months. the problem is the governor of the ltank of _ months. the problem is the governor of the bank of england _ months. the problem is the governor of the bank of england said _ months. the problem is the governor of the bank of england said 8096 - months. the problem is the governor of the bank of england said 8096 of. of the bank of england said 80% of the factors— of the bank of england said 80% of the factors of— of the bank of england said 80% of the factors of this _ of the bank of england said 80% of the factors of this inflation - of the bank of england said 80% of the factors of this inflation is - the factors of this inflation is external. _ the factors of this inflation is external, with _ the factors of this inflation is external, with absolutely - the factors of this inflation is external, with absolutely no| external, with absolutely no control _ external, with absolutely no control so _ external, with absolutely no control. so he _ external, with absolutely no control. so he has _ external, with absolutely no control. so he has control. external, with absolutely noj control. so he has control of external, with absolutely no - control. so he has control of 20%. so he _ control. so he has control of 20%. so he could — control. so he has control of 20%. so he could do— control. so he has control of 20%. so he could do on this _ control. so he has control of 20%. so he could do on this 20%- so he could do on this 20% something _ so he could do on this 20% something. the _ so he could do on this 20% something. the problem . so he could do on this 20% something. the problem is so he could do on this 20%- 5omething. the problem is that what something. the problem is that what sort of— something. the problem is that what sort of conservative _ something. the problem is that what sort of conservative i5 _ something. the problem is that what sort of conservative is he? _ something. the problem is that what sort of conservative is he? he - sort of conservative is he? he promised _ sort of conservative is he? he promised a _ sort of conservative is he? he promised a tax _ sort of conservative is he? he promised a tax cut, _ sort of conservative is he? he promised a tax cut, which - sort of conservative is he? he promised a tax cut, which is. promised a tax cut, which is typically— promised a tax cut, which is typically ridiculous, - promised a tax cut, which isj typically ridiculous, because promised a tax cut, which is- typically ridiculous, because we know— typically ridiculous, because we know that — typically ridiculous, because we know that he _ typically ridiculous, because we know that he doesn't _ typically ridiculous, because we know that he doesn't want. - typically ridiculous, because we know that he doesn't want. thej typically ridiculous, because we - know that he doesn't want. the only way i _ know that he doesn't want. the only way i think— know that he doesn't want. the only way i think he — know that he doesn't want. the only way i think he could _ know that he doesn't want. the only way i think he could get _ know that he doesn't want. the only way i think he could get a _ know that he doesn't want. the only way i think he could get a bit - know that he doesn't want. the only way i think he could get a bit out. way i think he could get a bit out is helping —

way i think he could get a bit out is helping the _ way i think he could get a bit out is helping the people _ way i think he could get a bit out is helping the people most- way i think he could get a bit out i is helping the people most affected by it. _ is helping the people most affected by it. by— is helping the people most affected by it. bygiving— is helping the people most affected by it, by giving money _ is helping the people most affected by it, by giving money. printing - by it, by giving money. printing money~ — by it, by giving money. printing mone . ~ , ., ., y money. the prime minister not only said this week— money. the prime minister not only said this week on _ money. the prime minister not only said this week on his visit _ money. the prime minister not only said this week on his visit to - said this week on his visit to blackpool, "you can't spend your way out of recession, you can't tax your way to lowering inflation. it is starting to revert, in terms of his line which at least, to more thatcherite slogans. it is clear that rishi sunak is chancellor takes a more traditionally conservative view. these tensions have the potential to explode and be quite damaging. i potential to explode and be quite damauain. ~ potential to explode and be quite damauain. ,, �* damaging. i think he couldn't take the resignation _ damaging. i think he couldn't take the resignation of _ damaging. i think he couldn't take the resignation of his _ damaging. i think he couldn't take the resignation of his chancellor. l the resignation of his chancellor. i think that would be one of the things, so he has to go along. boris is a really opportunistic politician. i did once ask him, "boris, how do you come to your views? because they were a mixture." it is easy, i wonder if it might ask what the readers of thinking and i

do hundred and i do 180 degrees opposite and i can't go wrong." that is a typical boris cheek, but he is veryjournalistic. is a typical boris cheek, but he is very journalistic. journalists, maybe mark has firm views, most journalists are very floating voters, they go all over the place on policy. so does boris, he is a total opportunist, he doesn't have really clear, deep beliefs. the conservative party, certainly they are beginning to understand this. it is perhaps why none of us have gone into politics clicks, because imagine the danger we would have done without inconsistent views. talking about opportunism, he reminds me of david lloyd george, the great liberal prime minister who ended up leaving a conservative coalition government until conservative mps threw him out. let's talk about belgium, in particular, and this question of imperial legacy. the king of the

belgians, the king of belgium as i could possibly style him, was in the drc, the democratic republic of congo this week. why? and what was different about this? it is congo this week. why? and what was different about this?— different about this? it is the first time _ different about this? it is the first time you _ different about this? it is the first time you have _ different about this? it is the first time you have a - different about this? it is the first time you have a king - different about this? it is the first time you have a king of| first time you have a king of belgium. _ first time you have a king of belgium, belgium - first time you have a king of belgium, belgium was - first time you have a king of. belgium, belgium was terrible first time you have a king of- belgium, belgium was terrible at colonising, — belgium, belgium was terrible at colonising, but— belgium, belgium was terrible at colonising, but they— belgium, belgium was terrible at colonising, but they might - belgium, belgium was terrible at colonising, but they might have i belgium, belgium was terrible at - colonising, but they might have been among _ colonising, but they might have been among the _ colonising, but they might have been among the worst _ colonising, but they might have been among the worst ones _ colonising, but they might have been among the worst ones with _ colonising, but they might have been among the worst ones with the - among the worst ones with the exploitation_ among the worst ones with the exploitation of— among the worst ones with the exploitation of the _ among the worst ones with the exploitation of the people - among the worst ones with the exploitation of the people of. among the worst ones with the. exploitation of the people of the congo _ exploitation of the people of the congo and — exploitation of the people of the congo and the _ exploitation of the people of the congo and the wealth _ exploitation of the people of the congo and the wealth and - exploitation of the people of the congo and the wealth and the i congo and the wealth and the minerals _ congo and the wealth and the minerals of— congo and the wealth and the minerals of the _ congo and the wealth and the minerals of the congo - congo and the wealth and the minerals of the congo that. congo and the wealth and the . minerals of the congo that built belgium — minerals of the congo that built belgium as _ minerals of the congo that built belgium as a _ minerals of the congo that built belgium as a superpower- minerals of the congo that built belgium as a superpower at - minerals of the congo that built belgium as a superpower at the minerals of the congo that built - belgium as a superpower at the end of the _ belgium as a superpower at the end of the 19th — belgium as a superpower at the end of the 19th century _ belgium as a superpower at the end of the 19th century and _ belgium as a superpower at the end of the 19th century and beginning i belgium as a superpower at the end of the 19th century and beginning ofj of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th— of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century. _ of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century. he _ of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century. he went - of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century. he went there - of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century. he went there toi the 20th century. he went there to apologise but _ the 20th century. he went there to apologise but he _ the 20th century. he went there to apologise. but he said _ the 20th century. he went there to apologise. but he said exactly, - the 20th century. he went there to| apologise. but he said exactly, "we denounce _ apologise. but he said exactly, "we denounce unacceptable _ apologise. but he said exactly, "we denounce unacceptable regime - apologise. but he said exactly, "we i denounce unacceptable regime based on paternalism — denounce unacceptable regime based on paternalism and _ denounce unacceptable regime based on paternalism and discrimination - on paternalism and discrimination and racism" _ on paternalism and discrimination and racism." well, _ on paternalism and discrimination and racism." well, he _ on paternalism and discrimination and racism." well, he didn't - on paternalism and discrimination| and racism." well, he didn't really apologise — and racism." well, he didn't really apologise he_ and racism." well, he didn't really apologise hejust_ and racism." well, he didn't really apologise. he just condemned - and racism." well, he didn't really apologise. he just condemned it. i and racism." well, he didn't really. apologise. he just condemned it. and did he _ apologise. he just condemned it. and did he bringm? — apologise. hejust condemned it. and did he bring...?_ did he bring...? that almost makes

him seem like _ did he bring...? that almost makes him seem like a _ did he bring...? that almost makes him seem like a third _ did he bring...? that almost makes him seem like a third party, - did he bring...? that almost makes him seem like a third party, like - did he bring...? that almost makes him seem like a third party, like he| him seem like a third party, like he was looking from the outside. and it was looking from the outside. and it was his family, it was initially... it belongs to leopold ii, who was his family. — it belongs to leopold ii, who was his family, saxe _ it belongs to leopold ii, who was his family, saxe coburg. - it belongs to leopold ii, who was his family, saxe coburg. what. it belongs to leopold ii, who wa5| his family, saxe coburg. what did it belongs to leopold ii, who was - his family, saxe coburg. what did he bring _ his family, saxe coburg. what did he bring to— his family, saxe coburg. what did he bring to the — his family, saxe coburg. what did he bring to the congolese? he - his family, saxe coburg. what did he bring to the congolese? he didn't . bring to the congolese? he didn't bring _ bring to the congolese? he didn't bring money— bring to the congolese? he didn't bring money as— bring to the congolese? he didn't bring money as compensation, i bring to the congolese? he didn'tj bring money as compensation, he can't _ bring money as compensation, he can't afford — bring money as compensation, he can't afford that _ bring money as compensation, he can't afford that at _ bring money as compensation, he can't afford that at the _ bring money as compensation, he can't afford that at the moment. i bring money as compensation, he l can't afford that at the moment. he brings— can't afford that at the moment. he brings a _ can't afford that at the moment. he brings a few— can't afford that at the moment. he brings a few artefacts _ can't afford that at the moment. he brings a few artefacts from - can't afford that at the moment. he brings a few artefacts from the - brings a few artefacts from the museum — brings a few artefacts from the museum of— brings a few artefacts from the museum of the _ brings a few artefacts from the museum of the congo. - brings a few artefacts from the museum of the congo. the. brings a few artefacts from the museum of the congo. the first eniumatic museum of the congo. the first enigmatic prime _ museum of the congo. the first enigmatic prime minister. - museum of the congo. the first enigmatic prime minister. he i museum of the congo. the first i enigmatic prime minister. he was killed by the _ enigmatic prime minister. he was killed by the americans, - enigmatic prime minister. he was killed by the americans, he - enigmatic prime minister. he was| killed by the americans, he brings enigmatic prime minister. he was i killed by the americans, he brings a few artefacts — killed by the americans, he brings a few artefacts and _ killed by the americans, he brings a few artefacts and the _ killed by the americans, he brings a few artefacts and the tooth - killed by the americans, he brings a few artefacts and the tooth of- killed by the americans, he brings a few artefacts and the tooth of this i few artefacts and the tooth of this man and _ few artefacts and the tooth of this man and says _ few artefacts and the tooth of this man and says it— few artefacts and the tooth of this man and says it is— few artefacts and the tooth of this man and says it is done _ few artefacts and the tooth of this man and says it is done for- few artefacts and the tooth of this man and says it is done for so- few artefacts and the tooth of this man and says it is done for so he| man and says it is done for so he hasn't _ man and says it is done for so he hasn't apologised, _ man and says it is done for so he hasn't apologised, he _ man and says it is done for so he hasn't apologised, he hasn't - hasn't apologised, he hasn't condemned _ hasn't apologised, he hasn't condemned. i— hasn't apologised, he hasn't condemned. i went- hasn't apologised, he hasn't condemned. i went recently| hasn't apologised, he hasn't i condemned. i went recently to brussels, _ condemned. i went recently to brussels, the _ condemned. i went recently to brussels, the statue _ condemned. i went recently to brussels, the statue of- condemned. i went recently toi brussels, the statue of leopold condemned. i went recently to i brussels, the statue of leopold ii are everywhere _ brussels, the statue of leopold ii are everywhere and _ brussels, the statue of leopold ii are everywhere and there - brussels, the statue of leopold ii are everywhere and there is - brussels, the statue of leopold ii are everywhere and there is not i brussels, the statue of leopold ilj are everywhere and there is not a plague _ are everywhere and there is not a plague on — are everywhere and there is not a

plaque on this— are everywhere and there is not a plaque on this marvellous - are everywhere and there is not a i plaque on this marvellous building in the _ plaque on this marvellous building in the centre — plaque on this marvellous building in the centre of— plaque on this marvellous building in the centre of brussels _ plaque on this marvellous building in the centre of brussels which - plaque on this marvellous building| in the centre of brussels which has been _ in the centre of brussels which has been built— in the centre of brussels which has been built because _ in the centre of brussels which has been built because of— in the centre of brussels which ha5| been built because of communism. nothing _ been built because of communism. nothing has — been built because of communism. nothing has changed. _ been built because of communism. nothing has changed. i— been built because of communism. nothing has changed. ithink- nothing has changed. i think belgium. _ nothing has changed. i think belgium, like— nothing has changed. i think belgium, like most- nothing has changed. i think. belgium, like most countries, nothing has changed. i think- belgium, like most countries, with some _ belgium, like most countries, with some exceptions, _ belgium, like most countries, with some exceptions, cannot- belgium, like most countries, with some exceptions, cannot cope - belgium, like most countries, with| some exceptions, cannot cope with its colonial — some exceptions, cannot cope with its colonial past. _ some exceptions, cannot cope with its colonial past. but— some exceptions, cannot cope with its colonial past.— its colonial past. but you think money is _ its colonial past. but you think money is quite _ its colonial past. but you think money is quite a _ its colonial past. but you think money is quite a big _ its colonial past. but you think money is quite a big part - its colonial past. but you think money is quite a big part of i money is quite a big part of this? the fear that it would somehow open the gates to massive compensation? yes, the competition would be massive — yes, the competition would be massive, because _ yes, the competition would be massive, because the - yes, the competition would be. massive, because the minerals, diamondsm _ massive, because the minerals, diamonds---_ massive, because the minerals, diamonds... rubber, everything. everything. _ diamonds... rubber, everything. everything. to — diamonds... rubber, everything. everything, to the _ diamonds... rubber, everything. | everything, to the compensation. diamonds... rubber, everything. - everything, to the compensation. the problem _ everything, to the compensation. the problem is _ everything, to the compensation. the problem is the — everything, to the compensation. the problem is the congolese _ everything, to the compensation. the problem is the congolese are - everything, to the compensation. the problem is the congolese are not - problem is the congolese are not very well— problem is the congolese are not very well equipped _ problem is the congolese are not very well equipped to _ problem is the congolese are not very well equipped to get - problem is the congolese are not very well equipped to get these i very well equipped to get these compensation. _ very well equipped to get these compensation. they— very well equipped to get these compensation. they won't - very well equipped to get these compensation. they won't go i very well equipped to get these | compensation. they won't go to very well equipped to get these - compensation. they won't go to court and sue _ compensation. they won't go to court and sue at— compensation. they won't go to court and sue at the — compensation. they won't go to court and sue at the end _ compensation. they won't go to court and sue at the end of— compensation. they won't go to court and sue at the end of the _ compensation. they won't go to court and sue at the end of the belgians . and sue at the end of the belgians will get _ and sue at the end of the belgians will get away — and sue at the end of the belgians will get away with _ and sue at the end of the belgians will get away with it _ and sue at the end of the belgians will get away with it will stop - will get away with it will stop germany _ will get away with it will stop germany faced _ will get away with it will stop germany faced this - will get away with it will stop germany faced this dilemmaj will get away with it will stop - germany faced this dilemma and it took a different route. can you expend the background to this? it was only a couple of years ago. it

was only a couple of years ago. it was not long ago, i think it was spring — was not long ago, i think it was spring 2021 that the government in berlin _ spring 2021 that the government in berlin agreed with the government of namibia _ berlin agreed with the government of namibia for compensation and gave an official— namibia for compensation and gave an official apology. they had been negotiating for quite some years about— negotiating for quite some years about the — negotiating for quite some years about the money that germany was going _ about the money that germany was going to _ about the money that germany was going to pay but i think it was more than 1_ going to pay but i think it was more thani billion euros, which goes into lots— thani billion euros, which goes into lots of— thani billion euros, which goes into lots of projects in the country _ into lots of projects in the country. but i think in a way, germany— country. but i think in a way, germany is _ country. but i think in a way, germany is a bit of a unique case, if i may— germany is a bit of a unique case, if i may say, — germany is a bit of a unique case, if i may say, in europe, and for good _ if i may say, in europe, and for good reason, because of our history and the _ good reason, because of our history and the nazi history and because of the holocaust. sol and the nazi history and because of the holocaust. so i really think i'm one of— the holocaust. so i really think i'm one of the — the holocaust. so i really think i'm one of the journals of the generations who really grew up and was educated with knowing, almost in a too harshly, too much detail, what germans _ a too harshly, too much detail, what germans did — a too harshly, too much detail, what germans did to the dues, to the russians, — germans did to the dues, to the russians, to the ukrainians and the loads— russians, to the ukrainians and the loads of— russians, to the ukrainians and the loads of people in europe and beyond — loads of people in europe and beyond. —— to the jews. sol loads of people in europe and beyond. —— to the jews. so i don't find it— beyond. —— to the jews. so i don't find it difficult to say sorry, we don't _ find it difficult to say sorry, we don't find _ find it difficult to say sorry, we don't find it difficult to say

sorry _ don't find it difficult to say sorry. while it is difficult to acknowledge what you have done, then you can _ acknowledge what you have done, then you can move on. if you don't do this, _ you can move on. if you don't do this, if— you can move on. if you don't do this, if you — you can move on. if you don't do this, if you don't four white europeans sitting around this table, all from _ europeans sitting around this table, all from colonising nations. this europeans sitting around this table, all from colonising nations.- all from colonising nations. this is all from colonising nations. this is a live issue _ all from colonising nations. this is a live issue for _ all from colonising nations. this is a live issue for the _ all from colonising nations. this is a live issue for the british, isn't i a live issue for the british, isn't it? we saw this with a visit to the caribbean early this year which ended up being a argument. the response was deemed a tone deaf to the appeals. the country now so they will leave the commonwealth an end the links with the queen as head of state, in part driven by this issue. at the british yet find a way to address this, do you think? i’m at the british yet find a way to address this, do you think? i'm not sure they have. _ address this, do you think? i'm not sure they have. but _ address this, do you think? i'm not sure they have. but i _ address this, do you think? i'm not sure they have. but i suspect - address this, do you think? i'm not sure they have. but i suspect i'm i sure they have. but i suspect i'm tone deaf on this issue too. i am not sure the word sorry is a very helpful word, the vikings weren't sorry when they plundered this country. countries have their

history, and parts of british colonial history are undoubtedly reprehensible, we did some terrible things. part of british colonial history we can be proud of stop and i think one has to face up to the fact of what one did and what one didn't do and the feelings, but it is a terrible mistake to judge everything in retrospect from the standards of today. that doesn't mean to say you hide what you have done or it shouldn't be acknowledged what was done at the time, but i am weary of sorry. i'm not weary of reparations if they can be shown that you you need to make good in terms of relationships what has happened in the past. but this word sorry is just too easy a word. i think you just have to face up to your history. but think you just have to face up to your history-— think you just have to face up to your history. but a correction, you choose how _ your history. but a correction, you choose how strong _ your history. but a correction, you choose how strong the _ your history. but a correction, you choose how strong the link - your history. but a correction, you choose how strong the link still i your history. but a correction, you choose how strong the link still is | choose how strong the link still is with the _ choose how strong the link still is with the commonwealth. -

choose how strong the link still is with the commonwealth. the i choose how strong the link still is i with the commonwealth. the countries who are _ with the commonwealth. the countries who are getting — with the commonwealth. the countries who are getting rid _ with the commonwealth. the countries who are getting rid of— with the commonwealth. the countries who are getting rid of the _ with the commonwealth. the countries who are getting rid of the queen - with the commonwealth. the countries who are getting rid of the queen as i who are getting rid of the queen as head of— who are getting rid of the queen as head of state. _ who are getting rid of the queen as head of state, that _ who are getting rid of the queen as head of state, that shows - who are getting rid of the queen as head of state, that shows how i who are getting rid of the queen as i head of state, that shows how strong link, head of state, that shows how strong link. this— head of state, that shows how strong link, this colonial— head of state, that shows how strong link, this colonial link— head of state, that shows how strong link, this colonial link is. _ head of state, that shows how strong link, this colonial link is. because i link, this colonial link is. because what _ link, this colonial link is. because what is _ link, this colonial link is. because what is the — link, this colonial link is. because what is the commonwealth? - link, this colonial link is. because what is the commonwealth? it i link, this colonial link is. because what is the commonwealth? it is| link, this colonial link is. because i what is the commonwealth? it is the remnants _ what is the commonwealth? it is the remnants of— what is the commonwealth? it is the remnants of the _ what is the commonwealth? it is the remnants of the colonies. _ what is the commonwealth? it is the remnants of the colonies. i’m“ - remnants of the colonies. i'm interested — remnants of the colonies. i'm interested in _ remnants of the colonies. i'm interested in this, _ remnants of the colonies. interested in this, because i remnants of the colonies.“ interested in this, because i think when i was growing up in the 19805, we didn't talk about the other side. we talked about the scrabble for africa is a story, but this is a book called legacy of violence by an american professor. she did some research on actual british government documents, and this is a quote, not a pleasant point but important in the context of this about some of the violence that was used against those who suffered as a result of this in terms of the violence that was used against them. i willjust violence that was used against them. i will just try and violence that was used against them. i willjust try and find, if i can find the right bit of this... i

don't think i can, but essentially what she was saying was that there was real violence used and some of the violence was things that would be shameful to many people in this country if they knew the violence, some of those documents were hidden away in a government building and only appeared about ten years ago. the mau mau rebellion. this only appeared about ten years ago. the mau mau rebellion.— the mau mau rebellion. this is an examle the mau mau rebellion. this is an example of— the mau mau rebellion. this is an example of the _ the mau mau rebellion. this is an example of the british _ the mau mau rebellion. this is an i example of the british astonishment burying its legacy. example of the british astonishment burying its legacy-— burying its legacy. look, having all nations do want _ burying its legacy. look, having all nations do want to _ burying its legacy. look, having all nations do want to hide _ burying its legacy. look, having all nations do want to hide things - burying its legacy. look, having all nations do want to hide things at i nations do want to hide things at times. but i am just wary of this total sweep of colonial, that all colonialism is bad, which there is a movement on that now. i don't think it is true, i think there were some very good things done. it is it is true, i think there were some very good things done. it is easier to sell about _ very good things done. it is easier to sell about the _ very good things done. it is easier to sell about the achievements i very good things done. it is easier to sell about the achievements ifl to sell about the achievements if you acknowledge... i to sell about the achievements if you acknowledge. . ._ to sell about the achievements if you acknowledge... i think mark's oint of you acknowledge... i think mark's point of view _ you acknowledge... i think mark's point of view is _ you acknowledge... i think mark's point of view is good, _ you acknowledge... i think mark's point of view is good, that - you acknowledge... i think mark's point of view is good, that the - point of view is good, that the commonwealth would not exist if britain's record was so poor as is sometimes betrayed. i’m britain's record was so poor as is sometimes betrayed.— britain's record was so poor as is sometimes betrayed. i'm not quite sure, i sometimes betrayed. i'm not quite sure. i find — sometimes betrayed. i'm not quite sure. i find it _ sometimes betrayed. i'm not quite sure, i find it hard _ sometimes betrayed. i'm not quite sure, i find it hard to _ sometimes betrayed. i'm not quite sure, i find it hard to say. - sometimes betrayed. i'm not quite sure, i find it hard to say. they - sure, i find it hard to say. they have _ sure, i find it hard to say. they

have been— sure, i find it hard to say. they have been good things done by cloning — have been good things done by cloning is— have been good things done by cloning is on, what do you mean for example? _ cloning is on, what do you mean for example? in — cloning is on, what do you mean for examle? . cloning is on, what do you mean for examle? , ., .. ., example? in terms of education, commercialisation, _ example? in terms of education, commercialisation, in _ example? in terms of education, commercialisation, in terms - example? in terms of education, commercialisation, in terms of l commercialisation, in terms of trade, living standards. that commercialisation, in terms of trade, living standards.- trade, living standards. that is fine. . . trade, living standards. that is fine- -- in _ trade, living standards. that is fine... in terms _ trade, living standards. that is fine... in terms of _ trade, living standards. that is fine... in terms of british - trade, living standards. that is fine... in terms of british law. | trade, living standards. that is| fine... in terms of british law. i don't fine. .. in terms of british law. i don't think— fine... in terms of british law. i don't think one _ fine... in terms of british law. i don't think one can _ fine... in terms of british law. i don't think one can totally - fine... in terms of british law. i i don't think one can totally ignore some of the things. it is don't think one can totally ignore some of the things.— don't think one can totally ignore some of the things. it is not about inanorin some of the things. it is not about ignoring what _ some of the things. it is not about ignoring what has _ some of the things. it is not about ignoring what has been _ some of the things. it is not about ignoring what has been achieved l some of the things. it is not about l ignoring what has been achieved but it is also— ignoring what has been achieved but it is also about acknowledging what was wrong what you have done. especially — was wrong what you have done. especially here, you don't have to id especially here, you don't have to go very— especially here, you don't have to go very far. — especially here, you don't have to go very far, you only have to go to iretand and — go very far, you only have to go to ireland and understand and have some empathy— ireland and understand and have some empathy with the irish. they now again— empathy with the irish. they now again feel— empathy with the irish. they now again feel they need to go to a trauma — again feel they need to go to a trauma of— again feel they need to go to a trauma of being let down by the english — trauma of being let down by the english again, where does this come from? _ english again, where does this come from? there — english again, where does this come from? there is something in the collective — from? there is something in the collective memory that you have been let down _ collective memory that you have been let down. but collective memory that you have been let down. �* ,, . ., , let down. but the queen apologised to the irish let down. but the queen apologised to the irish in _ let down. but the queen apologised to the irish in 2011 _ let down. but the queen apologised to the irish in 2011 when _ let down. but the queen apologised to the irish in 2011 when she - let down. but the queen apologised to the irish in 2011 when she went, l to the irish in 2011 when she went, why cant— to the irish in 2011 when she went, why can't she _ to the irish in 2011 when she went, why can't she apologise _ to the irish in 2011 when she went, why can't she apologise to - to the irish in 2011 when she went, why can't she apologise to the - why can't she apologise to the commonwealth? _ why can't she apologise to the commonwealth? i— why can't she apologise to the commonwealth? i disagree i why can't she apologise to the i commonwealth? i disagree with why can't she apologise to the - commonwealth? i disagree with you, i think now— commonwealth? i disagree with you, i think now we _ commonwealth? i disagree with you, i think now we have _ commonwealth? i disagree with you, i think now we have in— commonwealth? i disagree with you, i think now we have in britain a - think now we have in britain a multicultural, _ think now we have in britain a multicultural, multiethnic- think now we have in britain a - multicultural, multiethnic society, and we _ multicultural, multiethnic society, and we cannot— multicultural, multiethnic society, and we cannot continue _ multicultural, multiethnic society, and we cannot continue to - multicultural, multiethnic society, and we cannot continue to have i

multicultural, multiethnic society, i and we cannot continue to have these statues _ and we cannot continue to have these statues of— and we cannot continue to have these statues of slavery. _ and we cannot continue to have these statues of slavery. 0ne _ and we cannot continue to have these statues of slavery. one should - and we cannot continue to have these statues of slavery. one should get i statues of slavery. one should get rid of _ statues of slavery. one should get rid of them — statues of slavery. one should get rid ofthem it— statues of slavery. one should get rid of them-— rid of them. it is another good oint rid of them. it is another good point that _ rid of them. it is another good point that britain _ rid of them. it is another good point that britain has - rid of them. it is another good point that britain has changed | rid of them. it is another good i point that britain has changed and perhaps our attitude need to change with it. ithink it is perhaps our attitude need to change with it. i think it is a fair point, and i'm not against the discussion or indeed acknowledgement of what is happened, i'm all in favour of that. but the idea of tearing down cecil rhodes�*s statue for my old college in oxford are ridiculous. of course in oxford are ridiculous. of course in the end,... in oxford are ridiculous. of course in the end-"— in oxford are ridiculous. of course in the end,... don't symbol matter? 5 mbols in the end,... don't symbol matter? symbols do — in the end,... don't symbol matter? symbols do matter, _ in the end,... don't symbol matter? symbols do matter, but _ in the end,... don't symbol matter? symbols do matter, but the - in the end,... don't symbol matter? symbols do matter, but the idea i in the end,... don't symbol matter? | symbols do matter, but the idea you tear something down and something is achieved by this. my granddaughter was part it of tearing down the statue in bristol. this divides families. i statue in bristol. this divides families. . statue in bristol. this divides families. , . , families. i bet you have some very lively discussions. _ families. i bet you have some very lively discussions. in _ families. i bet you have some very lively discussions. in the _ families. i bet you have some very lively discussions. in the debate i lively discussions. in the debate over statues in the southern united states and over the union and the

confederacy, it turns out a lot of the statues weren't that old. they were set up at a later stage because people felt they wanted to be reminded of something that for them was a more glorious past. they weren't that contemporary at all. a lot of statues are being captured with plaques. i lot of statues are being captured with plaques-— lot of statues are being captured with plaques. i am all in favour of that, of with plaques. i am all in favour of that. of trying _ with plaques. i am all in favour of that. of trying to _ with plaques. i am all in favour of that, of trying to explain - with plaques. i am all in favour of that, of trying to explain some i with plaques. i am all in favour of that, of trying to explain some of| that, of trying to explain some of the background of what was going on. thank you all are very much. thank you very much, more dateline: london next week. goodbye. the weather this weekend is looking very decent for many of us.

it will be on the breezy side, though, particularly across northern parts of the uk, and there are a few showers in the forecast, as well. but if you don't mind a fleeting brief shower, you should be absolutely fine. now, low pressure is brushing us right now. it's actually an old tropical storm, the remnants of, that is. and you can see quite strong winds blowing around this low, so that does mean a blustery day on the way on saturday. and here's the satellite picture from earlier on, this is where the gales are coming from. they're mostly missing us, but they will be glancing the north west of the uk here. so coastal areas, i think, up to around 50 mph in gusts. now, these are the evening temperatures — so you can see what a pleasant evening it is across many parts of england and wales. high teens, 20 celsius. and this is where it'll stay clear through the course of the night across england and wales. but in western parts of scotland, i think persistent showers and those strong winds, those gales out to sea, as well, linked to that low pressure. morning temperatures on saturday — 12 in the south, about 12 in the north, so more or less

the same wherever you are. now on saturday, the low pressure's closest approach, that is, to northern parts of scotland, so some very windy weather in the north of scotland with frequent showers as well. the showers will also be frequent in the western isles, central parts of scotland. not too many of them further south, could be 1—2 across northern england, maybe further south, but primarily sunny spells and fast—moving, fair weather clouds carried on that breeze. now the temperatures on saturday — 22 in london, 19 in aberdeen, but fresher, obviously in the western isles, and also in northern ireland. that was saturday, this is sunday — and the winds will be lighter because that low pressure is moving away. it's actually closer to norway and the norwegian sea. we've got a few showers in its wake, i think, across western scotland. but generally speaking, it's a dry day with sunny spells, if not clear blue skies in some areas, and temperatures high teens, low 205. now, later next week — actually, this is the end of next week — we will see, potentially at least,

a dose of some warmth, it looks as though more southern parts of the uk will get that heat. you can see that steady rise in the temperature across the south, but maintaining the high teens in the north. have a great weekend.

this is bbc news. i'm shaun ley. the headlines at 8pm — plans to send some asylum—seekers from the uk to rwanda can go ahead after campaigners failed in their high court bid to stop the first deportation flight next week. the home secretary has welcomed the decision, but the case is expected to be heard again by the court of appeal on monday. ukraine's ambassador to the uk tells the bbc he expects a prisoner swap to free the two britons sentenced to death yesterday by a russian proxy court. new figures suggest more than half of uk households have cut their energy use because they're so worried about the rising cost of living. a french government report says a chain of failures by the authorities at the champions league final in paris severely damaged the country's image.