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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  September 23, 2022 12:30am-1:00am BST

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welcome to hardtalk, i'm stephen sackur. like a gambler desperate to reverse a losing streak, vladimir putin is raising the stakes as he loses ground in ukraine. he has announced a partial mobilisation for this war which he claims is not a war
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and is bigging up his threats to go nuclear if necessary. so what does this mean for ukraine and the support it relies on in the west? my guest is ivanna klympush—tsintsadze, chair of the ukrainian parliament's eu integration committee. can putin's threats undermine support for kyiv? thank you for inviting me. it's a pleasure to have you on the show. i just wonder that if you have any mixed feelings about
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the speed and the scale of ukrainian battlefield successes in recent days, given that the response from putin in moscow appears to be a very significant escalation of his military commitment. definitely, you're putting it right. it is about escalation and readiness to escalate that we are seeing in this speech that was delivered by putin. and we see that he is probably trying to address several audiences, from my perspective, both internal and the russian federation trying to, not to accept that he is basically losing to ukrainian armed forces, but is trying to present this war is a war against the common west, against nato countries and is basically trying
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to ensure that he is fighting the war with the whole west saying to the west that probably, threatening the west and looking for the weak links, maybe someone who can break this unity that we have right now and the support for ukrainian armed forces and for ukrainian society and ukrainian state. but also, he wants to ensure that russian people would be even more on board with him at this particular moment. and we will get to the psychological impact of what putin has said in the west because you follow that carefully and you have mentioned very carefully that you've been intimately involved with the ukraine's diplomatic relations with the us. talk about the psychological impact on ukrainians themselves when putin sits there with shoigu, his defence minister and they talk about the immediate call up of 300,000 reservists and the implication that many, many could follow, does that
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lead to a level of apprehension and fear in ukraine? if that was one of his goals, definitely he is not reaching that in ukraine. after what we have seen over this, some eight years and seven months of this war because it started back in 2014 and scaled up as of february 2014, we are not scared anymore of russian blackmail, of russian propaganda, of russian attacks, we just understand have to be even more resolute and even more united in order to push russia back. we understand in order to survive and to have the country that will be built in a democratic way that we want to have our own way, we have to ensure that we are protecting our country and that we are freeing it.
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you may not be scared but there is a severe corrosive effect to russia upping the ante and we had seen it in recent weeks, is the targeting of infrastructure, to the dam, and the power infrastructure in kharkiv, and even new attacks very close to some of ukraine's nuclear energy installations. these have an impact and it cannot be denied. absolutely, they do have an impact and we see that russia is not already hiding its attempts to ruin critical infrastructure and attack exclusively civilian populations and threaten civilian populations in ukraine but that means for my perspective, only one thing, that more and more weapons have to be delivered to ukraine and faster and faster. they have to be given
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to ukrainian armed forces who are capable of using the instruments if they have them at hand in order to, a, protect the civilians and b, to liberate the territories. and it's not also about the liberation of territories, it is really about the liberation of people who have been tortured, who have been deported forcefully from the occupied territories and those who have been raped and killed on those territories so saving those who survived is of extreme importance for us. you talk of those territories and another key element of putin's most recent speech is his recognition that the referendums are going to happen and the next few days in four regions of your country which to a certain extent are more or less occupied by russian forces and it was clear that this
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is the beginning of the process of annexationjust like we saw in crimea. that changes the dynamic in important ways as well, doesn't it, because russia in its defence of its integrity is soon going to include swathes of territory, including the donbas, and kherson, including almost all of zaporizhzhia as well. this changes the game. i think it's important to be clear about terminology, stephen. because it is not referendums, it is fake referendums or no events or attempts to legitimise the russian presence on the occupied territories but definitely they have nothing to do with real referenda or real polling or real voting on those territories. that is what we all have to be clear about and i'm very happy
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that a lot of international leaders have already come out with the statement that nobody is going to recognise whatever is going to happen on these occupied territories. you are right when you are saying that putin is going to use this for justification of these referendums, justification of his "defence" of russian territory quote unquote because yes, they can use their armed forces in order to protect their own territories and they can even use nuclear weapons to protect them. you raise it and it's very important because perhaps more any other part of what putin is now saying, the west is very preoccupied with this ramping up the nuclear rhetoric and he appears, in a quote, directly from his words, he says, "if the territorial integrity of our country is threatened, we will certainly use all the means,"
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and he is pointing to nuclear capability, "to protect russia and our people." this is not a bluff. putin looking directly at the camera and telling the west, "think about our nuclear power, this is not a bluff." how do you in the ukraine deal with that? first and foremost, you have to understand that we are not naive people in ukraine. we have seen so many atrocities over this period of time that we understand that he might not be just exclusively bluffing. but at the same time, we also believe that if there will be a clear understanding within russia that their attempt to use the nuclear weapons against any territory of our country will get the response with nuclear response from the west, that could stop this absolute madman that has started this aggressive, non—provoked war and that could also stop his so—called
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elite or is clique, rather, that is accompanying him there from using this move of nuclear weapons. are you telling me, in your opinion, what putin has just said will not make a blind bit of difference to ukraine's determination to push on with its counteroffensive trying to take back territory in luhansk, territory in kherson, it won't make any difference at all to your military strategy? why would it preclude us from liberating our people and our territories? again, it's about our people, it's about our territory, it's about international law, it's about justice, if you wish. and all the people who have been under occupation and who have got this blessing
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of being liberated by the ukrainian armed forces, they desperately want prosecution for all of those who have committed crimes in our territory, including their commander, or their master, mr putin. so, therefore, that will not stop our armed forces, it will, maybe on the tactics, that might be the case, but i'm sure that nothing will change with the resolve and with the readiness of the ukrainian society. if we stop fighting, if we will not get them out, we will not survive. it is as easy as that. how do you think that those people in the united kingdom, in the us and across europe who are many miles away from the front line in ukraine, how do you think they will feel about russia ramping up the real threat, the threat of nuclear war? you see, it is about sobriety
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of assessment of the threat that russia is posing not exclusively to ukraine. he has been very clear that he wants to reach his goals not only over territories of our country, he also wants to get to the borders of 1997. so, pre—expansion of nato, pre—expansion of the eu, so that means he is threatening many more nations than just ukrainian nation. that means that today, the security, the prosperity, the future of the european continent and, basically, the western civilisation, is being decided here on our territory with the resource and with the courage and the capacity of the ukrainian society and ukrainian armed forces
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with which we are pushing back on the aggressor. as we speak, interestingly, joe biden is talking in the united states and he is again expressing complete solidarity with ukraine, emphasising that putin will achieve nothing by threats and force. so that message has not changed, but it's interesting to me that while you and many other politicians in ukraine say what we need is weapons, weapons weapons, from the west, there are things which even the us government, your most loyal provider of weapons, is not providing you with. i'm thinking of the long—range rocket systems, abrams tanks, i'm thinking of us fighter planes, warplanes, you are not getting things you say you need, still less from many in europe. why do you think that is? unfortunately, it takes some time for our partners to understand the actual need and to understand the actual capacity of ukrainians to use this or that type of weaponry. i wish he would have gone into training of our ukrainian
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pilots to use american fighter jets already back in march or april but that decision has not been taken yet. and unfortunately, there is some kind of vicious circle that no nation in the world would give us a modern—type of tanks. it's not only about abrams, it's about leopards from germany or other countries that have these german tanks as well. so, this is about political will and about readiness to take their responsibility and not being afraid of escalating. putin does not need a pretext for escalation. he is escalating and he is going to escalate anyhow because he is failing. he is failing to reach his
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political and military goals in ukraine, and the more he will be failing, the more he will be trying to escalate more. we can stop them together if we have all the instruments. but the key to that is we can stop them together and putin sees that ultimately, ukraine, for good or ill, is deeply, desperately dependent on the continued and increased flow of weapons, military assistance, more ammunition coming from the west, and if that flow cannot be sustained and, indeed, ramped up, then putin believes you have a serious problem, and if you look at the reality, look at germany which you raised with me, what we see and hear is a country still deeply relu cta nt. the german defence minister christine lambrecht said just the other day, quote.
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we are reaching the limits of what we can give out of the bundeswehr, german army. that is the reality that you have to deal with. you see, we are seeing it unprecedented times, unprecedented solutions and actions. because, no one would believe back on the 24th of february the germany would totally change its doctrine and would be ready to provide weaponry to the country that is at war and that is what germany is already doing. so, unfortunately, some of the things are taking more time than we would like to happen. and unfortunately, that creates additional new graves and postponement and it's creating additional graves in a territory because of the people were dying from russian
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aggression and i'm sure that all those political decisions are needed to be taken to protect not exclusive ukraine and i underline, it's not about exclusively us, it's about your well—being, it's about your rules, procedures, values, your pr05perity, your future and that is being decided here. and this will be understood that will lead to these elections. he tried to give this message to europeans loud and clear but you must also be mindful for tens of thousands of people who went onto the streets the czech republic in prague who said they want to focus entirely on domestic issues like the soaring price of energy rather than see the government give more and more assistance to ukraine. you must be aware that the italian people are about to go to vote and may well vote for a far right government, including matteo salvini who is a long—time friend of putin. you must see that there are trends in some parts of europe which are not
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necessarily to your advantage, particularly in the long term with winter coming, soaring energy costs, people looking inward in europe rather than outward ? you see all of this demonstrations are actually happening not without engagement of russian federation. the russian federation has been investing in political corruption over different european capitals over decades, including in propaganda as well, and that gives some result. also, the dependency of the european countries over the russian energy resources, through, sometimes through corruption as well, which has created additional problems right now, for the eu countries that cannot easily deviate in and change their resources
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or energy or the ways in which they are receiving it. when we were alerting about that and saying that this nordstream 2 is actually totally geopolitical and has nothing to do with the economy and no one wanted to believe us, but then finally, the sobriety kicks in and it's an eye—opening experience for many and so, we have to be very responsible and it's about time for politicians to explain to the societies that we have to go through these decisions in order to live and have a future, a prosperous future and not end up in the territory and our countries which will be as attacked by the russian federation if it's not stopped or not stopped there where it is right now in ukraine. do you not have to be responsible too and have a duty
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to tell your ukrainian people the truth that actually there are real problems in parts of europe with believing support for your country is going to be sustainable and you in particular have worked so hard to get ukraine to candidate status in the eu, surely you have to be honest to people and say despite polls believe ukrainians could come within two years, it's probably not going to come for a decade or more. there's so many hoops you have to jump through before you get anywhere near becoming a member state of the eu. maybe it is time for you to be a little bit realistic about what ukraine can achieve and where europe is in terms of support for ukraine? i think i've been very vocal in clear about any prospects for ukraine and i also believe that it is incredibly important to focus on the homework we must deliver in order to get to the state where we can knock
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on the door of already membership in the eu and hope in nato as a strong and capable member. if i may interrupt, president zelensky seemed to abandon the nato objective and so, that surely is wishful thinking? i think he kind of changed his mind back towards the ukrainian constitution, which foresees the strategic goal to become a nato member, and from my perspective, i don't see any other security guarantee, neitherfor ukraine nor basically for nato, besides ukrainejoining nato, and that will make both actors, both ukraine and nato, much stronger, from my perspective, and that's the only way, i don't believe in any fig leaves, as budapest memorandums or other arrangements that will be discussed at this particular moment. if you say that actually ukraine is intent on nato membership, itjust makes me
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feel that in the end what we have is an existential conflict with vladimir putin, which can only end in one or two ways, either he wins and ukraine as we know it is destroyed or you win and putin and his regime will be destroyed. woulf you agree with that analysis? ie, there is no room for negotiation any more. it seems that this is an existential struggle which will either see ukraine or putin finished? we've been saying that this is absolutely existential, if we stop fighting, we will cease to exist because russia has decided that we are nonexistent and they want to eradicate us. and erase us from the map of the world. and that means that there has to be russia's defeat, rush is weakening and russia's punishment for this absolutely russia's is weakening and russia's punishment russia's weakening and russia's
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punishment for this absolutely illegal aggressive war that they are fighting, right now and calling it a special operation, now maybe changing a little bit because of the partial mobilisation that they are announcing today, basically. and, yes, we are sure that despite russia being defeated, there is no peace, not for ukraine. there is no peace for european continent and basically, there is no peace for the globe as well. because russia will use its victory if it is allowed to win this war for a continuation of the aggression, for continuation of the atrocities in other parts, in other parts of the world and being not punished for the crimes. it willjust raise the appetite for additional attacks. in a word or two, it is
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inconceivable that ukraine can win in this conflict without massive sustained long—term support from the westm the us and europe, are you sure you're going to get that sustained, massive support? we are going to work on it, and since we believe that we are standing here, for those values that are being declared by western nations, that are being declared by civilised nations, we hope that we will be able, not only to sustain, but also to increase that support that is coming at this particular moment in order for all of us together to win over this evil and the light has to prevail over the darkness. ivanna klympush—tsintsadze, thank you forjoining us.
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hello there, we had a real mixture of weather around on thursday. it was pleasantly warm across southeastern areas. temperatures in hampshire and cambridgeshire reached 21 celsius, 70 farenheit. temperatures are going to be dropping over the next few days. it looks like it's going to turn particularly cold at night—time. we have the cooler air moving down from the northwest, it follows this band of cloud here that brought a lot of rain into cumbria. that rain is now sliding its way down towards the southeast and east anglia where we start the day with some rain. elsewhere, further north, clearer skies means it's going to be a much colder start here, particularly in eastern
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scotland and northeast england where we will start with some sunshine. it looks like it's going to be quite a cloudy day across east anglia and the southeast, some rain from time to time. it should cheer up in the midlands and much of england and wales away from the southeast will be dry with some sunshine, scattering of showers come in on the northwesterly breeze to scotland and northern ireland. and temperatures may struggle to around 15 to 16 degrees. still sitting at 18 or 19 though with that cloudy damp weather towards the south east on that weather front there, which is only very slowly moving away. around this area of high pressure, we're going to drawn down that northerly breeze bringing in that cooler air and may be bringing in a scattering of showers this time on saturday for central and eastern parts of england. further west likely to be drier and it should be a dry day with some decent amount of sunshine for scotland and northern ireland. still the threat of a little rain in the far southeast of england but should be moving away and typical temperatures will be around 16 degrees or so on saturday afternoon. saturday night though could be quite cold around this area of high pressure. we've got that chilly air, never really establishes itself because this is going to be quite a feature of the weather
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as we head through the latter part of the weekend and into the start of next week. a lot of dry weather to come on sunday but with that approaching deep low in scotland and northern ireland, the winds will be picking up and in the northwest we'll see some outbreaks of rain, sunny spells elsewhere, mind you. still on the cool side after quite a cold start, the temperatures around 15 or 16 degrees. i showed you that deep area of low pressure on the weather front that's going to be sliding southwards overnight and on monday it'll bring a spell of rain. but following on from that, we'll find the winds turning to distinctly a chilly direction and a much stronger northerly wind will drop the temperatures early next week.
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welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore. i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines — the russians fleeing their country to avoid president putin's partial mobilisation of military reservists to fight in ukraine. translation: when i refused to take the call-up papers, - an official said, "suit yourself, but you'll be sent "to prison for ten years". back in ukrainian hands but still under russian attack, we report from the city of kupiansk. unrest spreads across iran sparked by the death of a woman detained by the �*morality police'. her father says they lied about how she died.
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