tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg July 29, 2015 9:00pm-10:01pm EDT
♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we turn to the nfl and a decision by roger goodell to uphold tom brady's suspension for his role in deflategate. the quarterback is set to sit out the first four games of the season for the improper inflation of game balls lassies and. they cited new evidence that tom brady may have destroyed a cell phone related to the scandal. it supported a finding he sought
to hide evidence of his part of rotation -- participation. joining me now is ken belson who has been reporting on this story for the new york times and rachel nichols, sports anchor for cnn. are you surprised? rachel: i am not surprised that the suspension was upheld. you had to figure the nfl was going to go all out. what is a bombshell is the cellphone issue. that is not something anybody expected. for months, we heard tom brady did not want to give over a cell phone. i interviewed brady and he made the point that is married to gisele and does not want his personal information at the nfl. charlie: so he could not have trusted them. rachel: he said he did not want to trust them. there is a difference between i
do not want to give it to you and what the nfl put out there which is that he destroyed his cell phone on the day the investigator came to his door. charlie: representing ted wells. on that day. rachel: on that day. the nfl is the one that released that. tom brady, in the appeals hearing, acknowledged it and said the reason why he did it is because he switches cell phones every four or five months and always asks his assistant to destroy the cell phone for privacy reasons. i do not know if cell phone destroyer is a job in his entourage, but according to him, this is a regular thing. charlie: a big deal to the commissioner. rachel: they said we do not buy it because you did it on the day that ted wells came to see you. they also pointed out there was a previous cell phone that, in
the process, was brought to them as a showing of innocence. their claim was, if you always destroy your cell phone, how come we have this previous intact cell phone. of course, tom brady's side does not see it the same way. charlie: what do you think about this? ken: it has moved from deflategate to cellgate. you do not have your from bill belichick on physics. tom brady's credibility has been undercut severely, which will bolster roger goodell's case. by destroying his cell phone, he has essentially admitted the findings are correct. charlie: by acknowledging he destroyed his cell phone, he has admitted the findings of the wells commission are correct? ken: that is how the nfl will see it. charlie: you cannot necessarily
assume that is true. but if you looked at it in the most likely scenario, that is the argument they will make. ken: then we get into a martha stewart scenario where it is not the crime itself, it is the cover-up. now it is going to end up in court. we will hear it through most of the season unless there is a stay. charlie: what are the options for tom brady? ken: his legacy is at issue when a hall of famer vote comes up. he is already wealthy and has a super bowl ring, so maybe it will not matter. charlie: he seems like a man that reputation means everything. rachel: you have the name cheater attached to your name. it will be a big deal to his legacy.
it is not a mistake we are talking about the cell phone today. the players association came back hard with a statement in the day. they were critical of the nfl. they said making the cell phone an issue is "a new low." they do not think the cell phone records, which they claim all the information is information the nfl has anyway. it is the definition of "is." how many times do we have to get into this? we have spun so far from the initial moment of the afc championship which is a big issue for the nfl. this could have been taken care of on so many smaller stages along the way. but here we are, making national news. charlie: it is coming on a bigger stage. ken: this could have been
settled by valentine's day. they did not won a ruling in the middle of super bowl. if tom brady had said let's settle this in a room. charlie: you would have been punished and would not have had to have -- a conversation? ken: instead, they hired ted wells. it went on for a couple months. we got the actual suspension. it would have affected dropped plans if they suspended him and taken away draft picks. we are in july and the season is about to start. rachel: we will still be talking about it because both sides are going to court. the nfl filed a preemptive suit in new york. because new york is going to be more management friendly. mlpa is filing in minnesota because the district court has proven time and again to be more labor friendly. not only are we fighting over
air pressure in footballs cell phones, who said what to whom whether a nickname was the deflater, but whether the case will be adjudicated in new york or minnesota. charlie: what is the likelihood that someone will step forward and say here is what happened? here is what actually happened? rachel: the patriots did fire the equipment manager in question. there is always the idea one of those guys could talk. we have not seen it yet. ken: there is no incentive for them to do that. they have already lost their jobs. they may be angry, but why do they need to step forward and help tom? rachel: maybe they would step forward the other way. who knows what they have to say? charlie: why did they not step forward? ken: they have already been fired. charlie: we do not know what they would have said. rachel: the question is, what
were they fired for? the patriots came out with a statement saying they do not know why the nfl is trying to destroy the reputation of one of its best players. they said they stand behind tom. the question circled back to wi-fi or the equipment guys -- why fire the equipment guys? they have not answered that question. charlie: that is one question that is unanswered. what are the other unanswered questions? ken: brady argues that phones were regularly destroyed. celebrities do that all the time. it is not out of the realm of possibility. obviously, they have suspicion. also, destroying a phone does not mean records are not kept on a server from a cell phone company. charlie: let's suppose a couple
hypotheses. suppose there had been some deflation. supposed tom brady said, i want to man up. i know there was a rule, but what are you going to do? what would happen? rachel: there are a lot of people when you talk about this blowing up to the size it has. the nfl is partly responsible and a lot of people who blame tom brady as well. there could have been a time early on ricky said, i like my -- where he said i like my footballs at the lowest level of deflation. maybe there was a miscommunication. i will shoulder the blame. i am the quarterback. i will step forward. we were never trying to cheat. we would never do something like that. if somehow, in trying to, we pushed past it, we will take our
punishment. we care about integrity. if he had said that, it would be over. ken: but it was too easy and would have cast another cloud over the super bowl. rachel: this has already gone so far and cast such a big cloud. you have people wondering about the legacy of the patriots, not just tom brady. ken: above this, you have greg hardy, adrian peterson, ray rice , and a whole new set of all of these on domestic violence. the commissioner has no choice but to come down hard on tom brady. charlie: that was his intention, set of reality? ken: he is under attack for being arbitrary in a bunch of cases and you have the issue of integrity of the game. at that point, any commissioner
will say, we cannot go any further. charlie: if the ball had been deflated, is it fair to say it had no impact on the game? rachel: i am not sure it matters. i know everyone loves to go back to that, but i do not care about that. charlie: that is it for you. rachel: that is it for me. it does not need to become a national nightmare. the punishment does not fit the crime. how many presidents can we get there? the punishment does not fit the crime. if at -- it had been taken care of quickly, it would have been gone quickly. charlie: third we go from here? ken: jurisdictional fights, bleeding into the entire season. charlie: tom brady will not play
charlie: we begin with the latest developments in the fight against isis. turkey announced it will cooperate in the battle, allowing american warplanes to use turkish airbases techtarget the group in syria. turkey has been criticized for failing to stem the flow of foreign fighters. the efforts were endorsed earlier today at a meeting of investors. joining me from washington, brett mcgurk. special envoy for the coalition against isis. i am pleased to have you on the program. what is your title? brett: deputy special presidential envoy on the coalition. charlie: you handle diplomatic's?
brett: the our diplomats in our roles. charlie: help me understand how this turkey thing happened. brett: it has been a long process, a 10 month process really. we began discussions with the turks when we set up the international coalition in september. turkey had a number of concerns and we had issues to work out with them. that put two bookends on it. president obama has had conversations with president erdogan about isis. you may recall the town of kobani over the border in syria. it was about to fall to isolate -- isil. at the town fallen, the northern border would have been controlled by isil. the president decided to do an
airdrop to the defenders of kobani, the syrian kurds. he called president erdogan and had an in-depth conversation about that decision. we went out to discuss with the turks that situation. we negotiated opening a corridor or through turkey for the customer got to resupply the defenders of kobani. that really started a very in-depth process with turkey. that was a real success. we build from there. we then worked with them on a train and equip program for the syrian opposition. we have had good cooperation with turkey. they have had an election, so our conversations slowed down. three weeks ago, talks accelerated and turkey agreed to open bases for aircraft to strike isis targets in syria and iraq with turkish f-16's.
some of the details have to be worked out. i am just coming from a meeting at the pentagon with secretary kerry, secretary carter, and the general austin about coordinating on the ground. we have a team in turkey and will move fast. charlie: the pkk -- what role did they play? brett: a lot of this is inter-tangled. we reached a preliminary agreement with turkey about two weeks ago. nothing was agreed until we had a conversation with president obama and the security team. president obama discussed it with president erdogan, which is when it was sealed. two days before the pkk killed
on number of turkish police officers and soldiers. those attacks were a triggering event for turkish bombing raids in northern iraq. this is a pattern we used to see years ago, pkk attacks and turkish retaliation. it is a pattern no one likes to see. we recognize turkey's right to self-defense and call on all parties to deescalate. if the pkk did not initiate attacks, turkey would not be attacking the pkk. they had nothing to do with our discussions regarding isil. charlie: they have said no turkish troops in iraq or syria, correct? brett: this is something we discussed for a number of months
would turkish soldiers be part of an operation underground? turkey told us that is not something they were contemplating. we looked to use syrians on the ground in syria to fight isil, building upon what we have learned. last time i was on your show was 11 months ago. we were about a week into the bombing campaign. we have done about 6000 or so airstrikes. about 5600 now. we have a number of ground operations in syria and iraq and have learned that when you have a force on the ground to coordinate with, we can be devastating. if you look at the euphrates river, everything to the east of the euphrates, hundreds of kilometers that isil controlled is controlled by the syrian
kurds. to the west, a 90 kilometer strip that isil controls, is what we are focused on. if we can help the syrians get control of that area in working with turkey, isil will no longer have a outlet. their caliphate will be a self-contained problem. then we can really pressure it in the anbar province and tikrit. make no mistake, this will take a long time and be extremely difficult. some of the elements are coming into place. you can see elements of synchronization between syria and iran to construct -- constrict isil. charlie: there is talk about the attack on ramadi. brett: the counterattack has
already begun. it began two weeks ago. it is an extended campaign. nobody should expect a lightning charge into ramadi. but they are making good progress. this is something we reviewed at the pentagon. this is another example. when ramadi fell, it was a significant setback. we deliberated with the iraqis and prime minister abadi. they pulled together sunni, shia, and kurds for a plan to take back ramadi. it is moving forward. some of the units we trained, it takes months to train these units. they are on the field in anbar. iraqi security forces to the south columbus from ramadi, retook the anbar university.
we are coordinating. you may recall the decision the president made to open a new platform, and advise and assist facility. we are there, our special forces are there, and we are advising and assisting this mission to retake ramadi. charlie: who controls falluja? brett: falluja has been under the control of isil for almost 18 months. six months before mosul. 2014 is when falluja fell. but it is now surrounded. isil is isolated inside falluja. they were using it to launch attacks in baghdad anbar province, and can no longer do that. charlie: it is said it would be of significant advantage for american air strikes to have it
-- access to turkish bases. brett: if you look at the northern border area, it is significant because isil is reinforced there. a huge strategic asset for them. they have tried to move to the west to break through and threaten significant turkish border crossings which turkey controls and we help get humanitarian aid into north of aleppo. if they were to do that, that would be a significant blow. we have been striking targets in that area over two months, but we are flying from bahrain and other platforms. the airbase is about 150 kilometers away. we would have 24-7 loiter time. something that our commanders have always said would make a difference.
that is why we work aggressively to get this open. it will allow us to put pressure on isil in strategic areas on a 24-7 base. charlie: the president is supposed to having special forces or anyone else close to the front lines in order to direct airstrikes. is that still the policy? brett: the president has been explicit in every meeting. he is not taking any options off the table. he said it -- if the chain of command comes to him with a recommendation, it is something he will can utter -- consider. those have not been presented to him. charlie: why not? brett: we are watching what works. with an advise and assist what form, and we just got there are six weeks ago, the idea is if you are located with iraqi commanders in touch with
security forces operating in the field and how we have our chain of command through the operations center controlling the airstrikes we can actually have a good effect without putting forces in the field. this is something that was discussed. should the recommendation come to the president, he will consider it. charlie: there is the idea of no-fly zones. i have interviewed president erdogan a number of times. he brings up the idea, when the question comes to the borders, about no-fly zones. he had a number of reasons. but that seems to be an idea gaining enormous attention. brett: a lot has changed since the turks on the table a no-fly zone. one thing that has changed is we have done the 600 airstrikes in
syrian airspace. the last time i talked to you, this was brand-new. of those airstrikes 40% are in syria. when we are flying in great density, the regime does not come near their. when we are operating in kobani we have a different go no-fly zone -- de facto no-fly zone. syria has clearly gotten the message. charlie: when i asked president erdogan about the borders, he always says, you cannot control your own borders. why do you expect me to control my? brett: you are hinting at the problem of foreign fighter flow. it is a global problem. we have 25,000 in syria and iraq.
building the coalition of 62 countries, we have been all around the world. everywhere we go, here that this is a top-tier national security problem from singapore to australia. they are all coming through turkey. it is an issue for turkey, first and foremost, but it is an issue of feeder countries that share information with turkey. within the coalition, we have five mainlines of effort. one of them is better foreign fighter efforts across borders. we would also like to know more about the networks. we are now talking about how do we shocked the networks. turkey, at this meeting at the pentagon, we had the ambassador from turkey talking about significant inroads into the
foreign fighter facilitation networks. they are sharing good information with us. this is something that will continue, but there is more turkey can do, the entire global community can do. there is now a chapter seven security council resolution calling on nationstates to enforce laws against foreign fighters. that is something we have to focus on. we just had a number of convictions today in the united states against isil-inspired individuals. you do not have train in an al qaeda training camp. you can be radicalized at home or the internet and social media. it is a huge challenge. turkey is a piece by not the only piece. charlie: you live this everyday. all of us ask, what is the attraction of isil and islam state for these young people on
social media? i know the security council has issued a counter force for social media. what is the attraction? brett: there are different motivations. they put out a positive message -- be part of this historical movement of the caliphate. the caliphate propaganda is sundrenched scenes and ice cream cones. people want to feel part of something bigger than themselves. it is totally false, but that is one line. the other line is the bottom feeders of society. come join isil. you can do whatever you want which is the gore they put online. they recruit through promises of sexual slavery. it is really perverse.
they recruit on a multidimensional level. to combat this, we are trying to integrate globally because they appeal different messages. it may be more religious and the gulf, more uplifting in europe. to get the messaging right, we need to defeat isil. we need to show it is not an expanding movement. if you go to the caliphate, you are not going to live a life of luxury. you are going to die a very horrible death. we are going to get that message out too. we think that is starting. the tide is starting to turn. but this is a very difficult challenge, a global challenge. it is one reason that when we went after this, it was not just something the united states was doing. we had to build a global coalition. 62 member states is important.
tomorrow" back we -- in quebec, we are bringing together the core contributors to figure out where we synchronize, what we can do better. this will be adding to the un's general assembly to figure out what is working. we are constantly directing the lines of effort falling behind. charlie: to get a sense of what comes out of that and the assessment of partners. very good. thanks so much. stay with us. ♪
charlie: we continue our conversation on isis and the turkish role in the fight. join me, francis ricciardone of the atlantic council. until last year, he served as ambassador to turkey. in washington, steven cook senior fellow of middle eastern studies at the council of foreign relations. henri barkey of the wilson center and david philips of columbia university. i am pleased to have them on this program. mr. ambassador, i began with you. your understanding of many
things turkish. where do you think the turks are coming from and why are they allowing the united states to use their bases for airstrikes in syria and iraq? guest: a couple of things. there has been persistent engagement with the turks and a certain amount of collaboration all along despite a failure to have a meeting of the minds. the engagement has been skillful. beyond that, i think isis made a bad mistake. if they did not direct the attacks on turkey, the inspiration has been there. that is sealed the enmity of the turks towards isis. isis took 40 turkish officials
hostage over a year ago. that was a gross humiliation of the turks, and they have not forgotten that. the enmity was there and unleashed last week with a terrorist attack last week. and then there are politics behind some of this as well having gone through an election with controversy about syria policy. charlie: stephen, how will this change the game? steven: i agree with frank. the turks have significant enmity towards islamic state. it strikes me there is something more that is going on in that the turks are seeking -- given the realities of turkish politics and what is happening in northern syria and the state of the peace process between the
government and the curtis dan workers party -- kurdistan workers party, that they are using the fight against isis to take care of other business. that is to ensure that in part the kurds of syria cannot establish there. that is the motivation. whether it changes the game for the good or the bad remains to be seen. but you can imagine a whole host of scenarios in which turkey and the united states gets more directly involved in the syria conflict, which is a war without end. charlie: speak to that, david. david: we should not whitewash that turkey's officials have been accomplices with islamic
state, allowing jihadists to run into syria. providing medical care from dish -- for wounded fighters. it is only recently we have seen arrests of islamic state personnel. charlie: have we warned them off of this? david: we have warned them, but it islamic state and akp share a similar worldview. when the deputy prime minister of turkey said women should not smile in public, they share many similar approaches. charlie: including the development of a caliphate in iraq and syria? david: that is certainly the goal of islamic state. the goal of the akp. they have been very clear on their orientation. they have not been a good ally.
it is only recently they allowed a equipped and trained program. charlie: so everybody is saying, this is about the kurds, rather than anything else with respect to turkey. henri: it is about the kurds and the relationship with the united states. there has been increased criticism in washington of the turkish conduct with respect to isis. the president once criticized the turks for not cooperating on isis. there was a perception that united states was not only angry but disassociating on the question of syria. the second aspect is that the united states essentially made a tactical alliance with syrian kurds whereby he became -- we
became the syrian kurd air force. they have managed to beat isis in a number of places and the only group that has succeeded. this is what the president referred to when he said with the proper allies, we can beat isis. the other thing that is critical is that there is an operations room in the region. the americans invited a pyd to sit there. what the kurds saw was an alliance between the united states and southern kurds. the syrian kurds steve said they do not want to become more powerful.
the turkish decision to open bases was taken before the attack. what the attack in -- did was allow the turks to announce it sooner than they were planning to. the decision was taken before the terrorist attack. charlie: who was responsible for the attack? henri: it looks like it was isis. they have not claimed, but the person who blew himself up had fought with isis in syria and other parts of the southeast with a group of kurds sympathetic to isis. is not the first one. there was a bomb before the elections. the person who blew himself up came from the same group that
did the attack the other day that killed 32 people. david: we do not know who committed the attack in zurich. it is believed to be a bomber working with the national intelligence agency of turkey. the reason they targeted policeman is they felt the policeman had a track record of close ties to isis. after they committed the murders , turkey responded over-the-top. charlie: the third part is the turkish government? david: there is speculation, we do not know. turkey used this as justification for airstrikes against the pkk. now we see an escalation of violence that destroy the peace process and created confusion between the u.s. and kurds of syria with ideological ties to the pkk that have been our only
allies in syria. charlie: what do you think? francis: one thing that i see shaking out that we should watch -- it is at least a hypothesis and it may be emerging as something that is a reality -- is that turkey may be coming closer to what has been the united states view on the kurds of syria. that is to say, quite distinct from the pkk. we in the european union have identified the turkish-kurdish pkk as an international terrorist group to be sanctioned, and against which the turkish republic has every right to defend itself. leaving aside who provoked whom or whether this was a contrived plot, the pkk is one thing.
and we, since the attack on kobani last october by isis have sided with the pyd as not the pkk. there are affinities and personal connections, shared ideologies, all of that. but the pyd has set explicitly we have no quarrel with the turkish state. pkk has targeted the turkish state. lately since turkey has come out with this agreement, turkish officials' statements are indicating that turkey recognizes this distinction. the political spokesperson for the syrian kurds has overtly met with officials in turkey. it looks like the government is making that distinction. that is useful in the american interest in isis.
charlie: let me finish, david. then i will go to stephen and talk about the border. david: we have tactical cooperation with pyd. we meet with them occasionally in paris. there is no embrace of the syrian kurds, and there should be. they have been the spearhead fighting isis in syria. if the fight is about degrading and destroying isis, we have to work with fighters on the ground. charlie: what do you want to disagree with? henri: we are working with pyd. we have a pyd office with the americans. the cooperation is expensive. if you are not giving a visa to the head of the pyd, it is just
not to anger the turks. but i think the turks are opposed to the pyd. they do not see a difference between the pyd and pkk. when you look at government press and the press of erdogan, they keep saying the pyd is worse than isis. they would rather fight the pyd than isis. when isis tried to overrun kobani, erdogan and turkish government made it clear they wanted the town the fall to isis. erdogan basically said, what is in kobani? oil, gold diamonds? that may be telling us they see a difference, but they are not. charlie: this idea that the
turkish government wanted isis to take kobani -- the argument you are making is because they were allied with isis? henri: not because they are allied, but a kurdish embassy in northern syria is anathema which makes turkish kurds stronger in their bargaining position with the prospect of two independent states. charlie: stephen, are the turks prepared to change their protection of their borders? steven: this has been the debate with the turks. frank has been the abbasid are for a number -- ambassador for a number of years and encouraged the turks to do this.
they helped create the current situation in syria by turning a blind eye to jihadists coming through turkish territory in the absence of western intervention to bring down the assad regime. they turned a blind eye as a way of punishing the assad regime. over time, and infrastructure developed along turkey's border with syria that has supported a network of jihad is -- jihadists. there is no evidence that turkey directly aided isis but they have coordinated with other extremist groups to go after the assad regime which is why the border situation is as it happens been -- has been. they had tried to secure the border under external pressure. i want to go back to something that henri was making.
it is important for everybody to understand the turks have different priorities from the united states and its nato partners. it is first making sure that curtis -- kurdish nationalism is suppressed in northern syria. second is isis, which is why they sat back and watched them take kobani, why they have soug ht to break the territorial integrity the kurdish -- northern syrian kurds have tried to establish. a week ago, president erdogan said turkey could not tolerate a kurdish independent entity in northern syria. david: richard used to say about most of which he would try to
solve a problem by creating another one. for him, the setback was the election. he is putting pressure on the pkk to destabilize the situation , to show the public that he and the akp are the only ones that can manage the chaos in turkey as a result of terrorism. charlie: is this a dramatic turn or simply something that is an agenda of the moment? francis: i think turkey's improving of cooperation with the united states against isis is important and meaningful on the ground. it should help seal the border against isis crossing and resupplying. that is an important thing. on the kurdish front it is a
complicating factor. the reason we do not embrace the pyd as david is advocating is because we did not support any separation of kurdish regions of syria into another state. all the efforts of american diplomacy has been to encourage control the kurds of syria to work with each other in opposition to assad. if there is a turkish distinction, recognition of a difference between pyd and pkk it is a recent one. that is very important to turkey and the allies, fully being on the same side. charlie: does this have anything to do with the recent election?
francis: yes. nationalism is always a big theme in elections. the kurdish party the party that is called informally the kurdish party, they appealed beyond their base as much as possible. they tried to show they stood for something else, peaceful resolution of conflict and advocated democracy and a more progressive agenda and not a ethnocentric kurdish one. now, with this conflict breaking out between the pkk and government, at least suspending the peace process if not finishing it that injects the
whole kurdish national versus turkish national struggle. it is a poisonous thing, a distracting thing with in syria. it is a very bad thing. i hope the pkk and government can find their way back to a political process to end the armed insurrection. charlie: turkey has been vigorous in denunciation of assad. the united states has said they are looking for a transition out for him. there seem to be dual objectives in syria. what might be possible in terms of a pathway to ending this awful thing?
where is it today, in your judgments? henri: i think the question of moderate forces is a nonstarter. i do not see moderate forces to much. looking at syria today, you have three groups other than the government. isis. the kurds. third is a patchwork of battle hardened al qaeda and al qaeda-look-alikes not being supported by turkey and saudi arabia, who have done a sawed a great deal of damage. assad essentially admitted aleppo may fall to them. i do not see the moderates playing a role. i think it is too late for the moderates. this is a dilemma the united states faces. charlie: where are we with
respect to syria? steven: we are in for a longer period of violence, a vortex taking in surrounding countries. the united states has a different perspective from turkish allies. the turks believe if you bring down the assad regime, you go down a long way towards resolving. the break in american policy is that we do not believe it. there is no horse to bet on. if a sock goes -- assad goes the killing will continue. charlie: thank you so much. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪
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