tv Bloomberg Technology Bloomberg December 20, 2016 12:00am-1:01am EST
>> it is 1:00 p.m. in hong kong. has called for a crackdown on terrorism after the russian ambassador to turkey was shot dead. he was attacked at an art exhibition in and kara. -- ankara. 12 people have now died after a truck plowed into crowds of shoppers at a christmas market in early in. 48 under people were injured in the incident. the driver fled and a suspect was arrested shortly afterward. a passenger died at the scene. and the make of japan has kept
its policies unchanged after its final meeting of i-16. governor kuroda and his colleagues upgraded their assessment of the economy. a statement says exports and output has improved. global news 24 hours a day, powered by more than 2600 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. this is bloomberg. let's get you a quick check of the markets. afternoon trading thing underway in hong kong and china but we are seeing a selloff across the board. tokyo, sydney just closing for the day. let's take a look over there. we are seeing gains after that boj decision to keep things unchanged. this is bloomberg. ♪ caroline: i am caroline hyde.
this is "bloomberg technology." apple and ireland wage war on the european union. we will have the latest. plus, and on my lender taking it slow after a rough year for fin tech. we will hear from the ceo. nintendo shares tumbles after the company released a game for smartphones. why super mario run may not be so super. first to our lead. apple said the case and island had no basis in law and they are confident the ruling will be overturned. the fight between apple, ireland, and the commission has been building. margaret vesta expired -- explained why this could be a long fight. >> we will continue to disagree on the decision because of the fact that we have different
legal traditions. i have learned that in the u.s. it is absolutely the order of the day for a business to negotiate tax breaks with the state where it is situated. we have had a prohibition to do that since 1958. when a clash of understanding about how this should be played out. caroline: we are joined by david
rosenblum. also in new york, our guest host for the hour, david kirkpatrick. with me in the studio, our editor at large cory johnson. apple is formally appealing. we also had a release of a statement today. the eu thing was interesting, it explained the history of this tax regime and the pieces of apple which should
be considered irish and which are. there are two ways to look at the news of the day. one is the backwards-looking paid taxes.w apple if you want to understand what is happening, the document is a fascinating read and gets into wasn't reallyss in ireland even though some money might have passed through ireland. they shouldn't be taxed there
because they would be taxed somewhere else. the question is what businesses are irish and deserve to be taxed in ireland. caroline: let's go out to david rosenblum. thank you for joining us. give us a sense of apple claiming they were selectively targeted by the eu. do they have a case? david: yes, they have something
of a case. aids true that the state investigation is focused to some extent on u.s. companies. on the other hand, it is probably also true that u.s. companies have led the world in aggressive tax planning and i do not find it particularly surprising that the commission would begin by focusing on these companies. caroline: david kirkpatrick, give us a sense of your reading of the tea leaves. is there warfare going on? i don't think it is to that point. it is a confusing situation, where apple has been aggressive and how they structure themselves when they face these tax jurisdictions is an interesting question, and whether it is appropriate they should be so fine tuning of their own structure when they are simply trying to do business around the world. it is legal in the united
states, it is turning out it might not be legal in europe. in a world where these companies have to have a positive gearing of the flag around the world, we as a country may have to question whether it is to our benefit that they arming so aggressive in other jurisdictions. give us the shareholder opinion here, cory. the shareholder would say that it is the corporate obligation to prioritize profits. a donaldthe context of trump presidency, we may have a big tax repatriation and you have intel, apple, and others that have a structure set up to benefit keeping the money overseas. one wonders if they are so entrenched in these battles, if the repatriation holiday may not be such a big deal and they may
not bring cash back, because they found another way to get around these laws. caroline: a key question for the next administration. i want to take it back to david rosenblum beard there has been much on the discussion about the oecd lining up to see how they can tackle rules and regulations worldwide and start to get all countries singing from the same hymn sheet. is that the way to move forward? david: i think what is missing in the apple debate, and to partly answer a large part of the oecdtion, necessarily reaches consensus at a high level of generality and the issues come up at a factual level. applying these general concepts to the particular facts at hand is a challenge. i don't think it is possible to reach international agreement on
the kind of issues we are talking about. and i would add, notwithstanding the mission's decision that was released today on apple, which was 130 pages, it is pretty slim on the actual facts of what happened. has a great deal of history about the dispute, the oecd, state aid, a lot of legalese, pretty tedious reading for most people. i was looking at it find out what actually happened here, and you look in vain to find out how it was that one of these companies, asi, booked about half of apple's profits in 2015. the commission says apple had about $54 billion in profits in 2015 and asi booked just south of $25 billion. david: i thought it was
fascinating reading, for that same reason. i agree that they did not lay it out, chapter and verse, but there was so much great detail in that. it was interesting to see so much profit assigned to that particular region, when they obviously had a global business and it was not all happening out of ireland. caroline: what therefore is the broader expectation, david in thism, who winds out particular argument and what does it mean for amazon, starbucks, ikea, other companies that are perhaps being analyzed by the european commission? world in a rational , and we don't live in a , apple wins the dispute with the commission. the commission advocates assigning all this excess profit to the branches that apple had in ireland and the branches in ireland had nothing to do with earning most of this money. the commission and the united
states are looking at the world from two very different perspectives. the commission sees these individual companies, it sees asi booking $2 billion, they see a branch in ireland and no head office. therefore, all the profits should go to ireland. that is what the commission is saying. the united states sees asi as a branch, not a separate corporation, part of a bigger company called aoi, which has branches all over the world. from a u.s. tax analysis of this, it is a much more complicated situation than the commission sees. that is because of profound differences in the way we look at tax laws. i think you are going to see similar, but not identical, high-tech from other companies, maybe some in ireland, as well. they will all pose similar
questions. caroline: david kirkpatrick, quickly from you, do you think this is on the agenda of concerns for executives in the u.s.? david: i think increasingly they are asking themselves, have we been hitting -- behaving appropriately? you are seeing a fundamental clash between a group of companies, of which apple is one, but also facebook and others, but they think that they are god's gift to the world of business and the european union thinks of them as aggressive u.s. companies and they wish they had european competition. they are demanding a much more rigorous set of parameters of behavior here it at think we are seeing a recalibration of the relationship between these global companies and the regulatory authorities of the world, generally. this is just one piece of evidence of that. caroline: we will see how the customers respond.
great conversation between all of you. david rosenblum, director of the international tax program at nyu law. thank you. we have cory johnson with me in the studio and david kirkpatrick is staying with us. coming up, my contact me, what is in store for his ipo timeline. that is next. this is bloomberg. ♪
making good on a promise to the united states that the bank will invest in a broadband access company as part of a pledge to donald trump. the investment is expected to create almost 3000 jobs in the united states in the next four years. the startup says it raised $1.2 billion from softbank. marketplace lender sofi is on the hunt for new funds. there'll aiming to raise about $500 billion to bolster their place in the lending industry. they company is one of the fastest-growing online lenders and offer low rates for students. they have spread into new products like mortgages and personal loans. is cofounder mike cagney. raised $1 billion from 2015.
how are you putting that money to work coming from a softbank entrepreneur? essentially we are using the money for the balance sheet. one thing we learned was the need to have a balance sheet and we have benefited from having the capital on balance sheet. caroline: is that what you are raising more money? mike: we are looking for additional partners from a loan buying standpoint. in 2017, we will range from $16-$20 billion in loans. that is a lot of favor we have
to place. we have deep-pocketed relationships with investors and that is a catalyst. caroline: we talked about how you started in student loans and now you are in mortgages. what other products are online? mike: we have mortgages, wealth management and are trying to build our asset management business. in 2017, one of the biggest solutions is a deposit account credit card. that allows us to deliver solutions for our user base so they don't have to go anywhere else from a financial standpoint. caroline: i come from europe and i was banking in germany and we have seen plenty of startups. is this where the competition is or is it from the banks? as they start to work out where fin tech is where they needed to head? mike: we see more competition from the banks and we are going after a rich target and it is very important to the banks in terms of knowing those relationships. whether it is student loan refinancing or personal loans
and mortgages, we are seeing more make competition been we saw a year ago. isn't -- it is important to differentiate through the value proposition. caroline: the value proposition differentiates with different products and how long until you toe the fin tech international expansion? mike: we deliver into that market and it is the same value proposition and it delivers speed and convenience and alignment and transparency, some thing that is missing a lot of markets for the millennial type customer. caroline: what you have done to set yourself apart is foster the careers of some of the students, having entrepreneur meet and greets people -- greets. how do you scale that and how much is it hurt by things like the lending club not doing well
in the press? mike: we have 200,000 members. we have a lot of off-line events. we have 10% of member base go to the off-line events, where we help people navigate salary renegotiations or get reemployed . u' or, dating events. hopefully, people create more household units i can sell mortgages to. it is important and it is part of our differentiation. we are finding the community is beginning to support itself it it is not a situation where everyone is coming to my house. caroline: back in the day. mike: back in the day. caroline: talking about the regulatory perspective. i'm listening at what is happening in peer-to-peer and crowdfunding. we are talking about the u.k., which is a forward thinking and open regulatory environment. where'd you see regulation
changing here for your business? mike: we are optimistic about the regulatory environment in the next few years. the occ has initiative to do lending charters and that is a step in the right direction and we can move away from the regulation we have today to a unified national regulator and we hope that more that comes, as regulators get more more comfortable with the industry and the people involved. caroline: ipo? mike: i always get in trouble when i say when it is coming. we want to go public and it is important for the business. today, we have a luxury of being profitable and we have the luxury to determine when we do that and we will do it when it makes the most sense. caroline: i look for it you coming back on. mike, thank you for joining us. there are a few headlines in the auto sector catching our attention today. we have to catch you up to speed. highlights of how this industry is seeing massive changes due to
extended time knowledge he -- technology. chrysler announces a hybrid minivan. they will be outfitted with self driving technology including computers and sensors. in the meantime, a new study the majority of drivers shut down self driving technology in their car. about health -- half drivers turn off their self parking technology. nonetheless, blackberry is opening a research center for self driving cars. we will be talking to none other than the ceo, john jin, about this-- john chen about tomorrow at 11:15 tomorrow eastern time. ahead, the world's first beer brewed with artificial
caroline: the world's first beer brewed with the help of artificial intelligence is on sale in the u.k. four beers have been created with a recipe based on customer feedback through a mobile app. we went to find out if machines can brew a really great beer. ♪ >> how do you like your beer? hoppy? bitter? dark? brewers have been trying to find the perfect recipe. could it be that computers do it better? >> we were talking about how you do it more constructively.
we thought, it is staring in front of us. >> his a tiffany let him and his his epiphanyd -- led him to develop an algorithm. they developed an method for feedback. a website directs them to a survey that asked them about their taste preferences. the artificial intelligence bit comes next. >> there is a reinforcement algorithm and the algorithm has all the information and it comes back with the recipe, giving the brewer a recipe. >> and to a a very human brewer, who acts as a last line of defense. >> it can be something that throws a random thing at us and some of it is just not possible. that is where the human aspect is. >> humans through the beer and
drink it, too. >> it is kind of like cranberry. >> if you use an algorithm, i outk the point is, you come tasting middle-of-the-road. >> customer feedback can be feature points to a future of tailoring products. in the future, and can be used to tailoring products with this technique, things like coffee and chocolate. i like perfume. get ready for the future. you can give your feedback on just about anything, for what that is worth. getting pretty carried away. reporting their great piece. coming up, apple is fighting
>> it is 1:30 p.m. in hong kong. the russian ambassador to turkey has been shot dead at an art exhibition. the killer said he acted in revenge for the bombing of aleppo and 12 people have died after a truck plowed into a crowd of shoppers at a christmas park in berlin. was arrested shortly after. donald trump has been formally named president by the excellent -- electoral college. some democrats wanted electors to not vote for tron. trump will be sworn in next
month. google has been given into the end of the year to settle a long-running tax dispute in indonesia. it is supposed to pay a fine of $220 million for 2015 and has been warned it may face a wider investigation of the case is not closed by december 31. the finance industry says they have two options, pay or don't. if they do not, it is jail. apple is hitting back at european union watchdogs who ordered ireland to pay back taxes. it is in appeal in luxembourg as the ones that apple paid every king -- everything required. dayal news 24 hours a powered by more than.600 journalist and analysts in more than 120 countries. this is bloomberg. let's get you a check on how the markets have been trading in the asia-pacific. juliet: mostly negative across asia today.
we are seeing the regional index and the read. there is a little bit of your and positioning at play, but also the turmoil from europe, a lot of geopolitical concerns. we had a strong finish on the asx 200 in austria, closing high by half of 1%. new zealand coming off its earlier gains in closing flat. you continuing to see the yen weakening against the dollar following the boj's decision, which was expected after no action from the boj. we are seeing the weaker yen release japanese equities. -- this is after we saw south -- tradeed positive positive for the first time since 2014. the hang seng in hong kong down by one half of 1%. also insurance players coming under significant pressure.
checking on the income it is holding at 117 .64 at the moment. down half of 1% against the dollar. we will be live from london at the top of the hour, this is kluber. -- this is bloomberg. ♪ caroline: this is "bloomberg technology," i am caroline hyde. let us get back to our top story for you. apple setting the stage for a giant legal battle around the globe that could last several years. analyst matt lawson is covering the case for us and joins us from washington along with david kirkpatrick. let's first stick with matt. give us your sense, tech companies move at the pace of lightning speed, but it seems that legal disputes never do. how quickly could this be resolved?
what is the next step? matt: the next up is an appeal from the european commission decision that goes through the general court in luxembourg and appeals take two years or longer. after that, another opportunity to appeal, and that could take another two years. five years that people keep fighting and there is no ultimate resolution, and that looks like it is the way things are going. caroline: david, you're talking to technology chief executives, leaders of business, is this something that puts decisions at risk or are we focused on donald trump potentially helping companies repatriate some of this money? david: there is a strong, enthusiastic view in business generally which you have reported on a lot in the last few days and weeks.
i think there is another trend happening, which is there is a global shift in the attitude toward really large, commercial entities and large, global businesses. it is more critical, more skeptical, and i think what we're seeing in the eu's -- excuse me, barrage on internet companies, this apple tax cases just one incident, we see a lot of big investigations and fines against google, facebook, amazon, etc. i think it is a shift that is tied to the whole inequality discussion. the big companies will have a higher standard of behavior they will have to follow, so companies need think about it in those terms. caroline: matt, do you agree? will this have an effect on other companies? we know starbucks, ikea and other companies are being
analyzed by the european commission. matt: certainly. we are looking for the results of the amazon.com investigation, there is one against mcdonald's, a lot of multinational conglomerates and companies that have subsidiaries in ireland are able to take advantage of disparate tax laws that maybe smaller corporations cannot. we talked about this being a little bit of a tech phenomenon. they can take advantage of some of the perceived loopholes like the apple case. i think you get a little bit of the sense of, when you are looking at the regulators, maybe there is somewhat of an injustice in the way that an electoral property is taxed and the way these large multinationals can move pieces around the chessboard.
it is a question as to, there is all this revenue sitting overseas, it should be taxed somewhere. the question is, where and how. caroline: with it remaining overseas, what does that mean for tax reform changes coming from president-elect donald trump? matt: i think that's a great question. he has made comments about a one-time repatriation, trying to encourage tech companies to bring those dollars back to the u.s. the senate has previously considered a patent tax box, which would allow companies to tax intellectual property at different than corporate revenues and that would provide some incentive to essentially establish ip licensing subsidiaries or licensing units in the u.s. that might be beneficial. there are always r&d offsets and tax credits. you see the huge numbers in the tens of billions of dollars that are potentially going untaxed by
what we think of as u.s. based companies. i think that moves the ball forward on the policy side. caroline: always great to get your viewpoint. thank you very much. david kirkpatrick sticking with us for now. we will be tackling a new subject, shares a nintendo tumbling almost 7% in tokyo after lukewarm reviews for the ir new game. it was supposed to be a watershed moment for them, their first foray into mobile gaming. the title, currently only on apple devices, has an average rating of 2.5 stars out of five. uses are complaining that the $10 price tag to unlock the game is too steep. still with us, it is david kirkpatrick. 2.5 stars, what you think is behind it? david: i am not shocked because when you think about the world we are in, you have to do something fundamentally different on this new platform of a smartphone.
the reason pokemon go did so well is because it was a fundamentally new use for the smartphone, putting augmented reality functions into a game and getting people out in the streets, really a whole new kind of human behavior as a result of the game. this is just taking a good old nintendo game and sticking it on a smart phone. it does not strike me as hugely innovative. caroline: does the star rating matter? david: i think they will get pressure to drop the price or do something better with the product, but they cannot do it overnight. it would not surprise me if the price went down. a 2.5 star rating is very negative. it is more than it reflects that the word on the street is really negative, and that is what is going to hurt them. they are not going to sell a lot at $10 apiece. caroline: david kilpatrick
caroline: airbnb is developing a service for booking air travel. people close to the matter have said that development of the feature is in its early stages. they want to move into the space that puts the home rental service in a greater competition with expedia and priceline. this is in addition to last months update to airbnb, which helped customers make restaurant reservations and other services.
the company has made a focus on diversity a huge priority. numbers are better than many big tech company's, 46% of their employees in the u.s. are women. emily chang set down with brian chesky back in march and asked him why he is making diversity a priority and how his workplace has benefited. brian: i think it is never too early to focus on diversity. the more diverse you are, the more successful you are. i think airbnb more than anybody else, it is in our dna. on new year's eve, 1.1 million people were living together. these people came from 190 countries around the world. our occupancy is bringing people together who are not like each other. our mission is to feel like you can go anywhere and you feel like you belong. diversity goes hand-in-hand with that. we have to make people feel like
they are welcome and included, they cannot all look and feels the same way. emily: i want to talk about how that applies to women specifically. your workforce is 46% female in the united states, far better than most other tech companies. we see 30% women, 20% women in technical roles. what is the benefit of having closer to 50-50 for men and women? brian: we have a basic principle, and that is if you have an office or a workforce, it should map to your community and the country you are in. i think many people, many companies, none of us truly represent proportional demographics of the country we are in, but we're trying to move toward that. there's no question that creativity comes from a breadth of ideas converging together. if you only have very narrow views and perspectives, you will be so limited.
caroline: that was airbnb ceo brian chesky speaking with emily chang in march. banking giant wells fargo is charging into the biggest asset management battleground, exchange traded funds. the san francisco-based bank is considering launching its first etf next year. is it too little too late? its competitors already have a major leg up in the etf market. joining us is dani burger and david kirkpatrick. why now? dani: active managers are seeing an immense amount of outflows. they're going into etf. specifically, it is this new breed of etf they are looking at that is really taking off. this is the hot new product. if wells fargo wants to be part of the next generation of
investing, and this is something they will have to be in. a lot of people are surprised it has taken until this year, actually within the next 3-6 months for them to launch these products. caroline: they are trying to differentiate themselves. talk to us about the way their doing that. -- they are doing that. dani: these are quantitative-based etf's built on computer algorithms. we have smart data that takes the idea of etf's but doesn't use market cap waiting. instead, it says, i'm going to pick the stocks with the most momentum, i will pick the cheapest. then you go to multi factor which takes those things and lumps them together. it says, i will not just use one of these factors, i will use a couple of them. this is really an idea whose time is come and this is where wells fargo is entering. if you look at this chart here, you can see assets are growing, but not as much as smart in a -- as smart data market as a whole.
goldman sachs really has the lead. that will be their biggest competition but they are hoping that by getting into this front, they can differentiate themselves. caroline: maybe a bit of a me, too from wells fargo. david, you like the fact that etf's are catching on. david: i like to apply algorithmic approaches to tools that ordinary investors can get access to. these techniques have been confined historically to highest net worth individuals, the biggest institutions. this is a great way for ordinary people to invest in a much more sophisticated fashion. basically, it allows the software to assemble packages of stocks that wouldn't historically be assembled. selecting fors all of these variables and they can do things in real-time that is much more sophisticated. it is not just an etf of grocery store companies, it is an etf of companies that have gone up on certain conditions and down and in relation to something else.
i think that is great. dani: i think that is compelling for these companies. a qr had a great report, taking some of the best investors over the years and they found you could break it down using algorithms. people who before could not have dreamed of having an investor like warren buffett working for them, they can buy these products and get essentially the same return. carone: active versus passive. the war continues to wage. does it surprise you that wells fargo is the last one in on etf? what do you think made them miss the trek? -- trick? david: talking about wells fargo is sensitive because they have made mistakes in recent years in their larger business. it is interesting that they would not have been, in the advance of this movement, given that they are in the thick of the tech community. there are a lot of startups that certainly are pressuring
companies like wells fargo and i'm glad they are finally responding. i think we will see lot of innovation coming from tech when it comes to investing. we have companies like that are meant, and schwab has taken on robo investing and robo managers and have had quite a bit of success with that. the big companies, getting into this. investors are getting more choices and i love to see automation serving individuals at a time when society is worrying more about how automation is going to replace jobs. at least there is a positive side is starting to be visible to ordinary people. caroline: great point from david kirkpatrick. dani burger, thank you very much. still ahead, we will continue to see unicorn valuations, or will we in 2017? we will hear from one investor who is not so sure. this is bloomberg.
caroline: as 2016 winds down, 'sews on tax massive -- tech masses valuations are diverging. some believe that uber and snapchat's valuation is fair and some think it is a bubble. >> i do agree that we are at the highest level of fund formation and company formation, but at the same level i believe we are at the highest level of innovation disruption and i think that will continue going forward. a lot of these companies will not be able to be funded going forward, but the few that do, there will be a subsection that will create interesting things that change the way we work and operate. emily: a lot of comedies have delayed going public. valuations have soared. there has been a rise of unicorns out there. how do you feel about that? atul: i believe is there should
be fewer instances of unicorns out there, primarily because the majority happens under $1 billion and very few companies are going public. if a company expects to be a unicorn, there better be a high possibility they will go public model,heir business otherwise if their growth moderates, which happens to everyone eventually and they are not profitable, they will not be able to go public, their valuations will get crushed. over the past two years, it feels like there's been more of a focus on optimizing valuations. we hope that changes going forward. emily: you guys are investing in a number of venture capital funds. they have a lot of unicorns in their portfolio. does that concern you? atul: dave had a unique ability to invest in these iconic, elite companies, whether it be facebook, airbnb, uber. for those managers and those companies, there is a market for
those companies to go public, but for the broader venture community, unless you are in those iconic companies, we believe that m&a is the most likely outcome. emily: jason horwitz has one fund in particular that made a big splash and there is some controversy about how good their returns have been so far. do you have the concerns about the performances? atul: we don't have significant concerns, we have seen the numbers and they have delivered very good returns over the course of the firm's life partly because they have been able to invest in some of the elite companies i just mentioned. we are very bullish on them. when they enter the venture capital game, they really change the dynamic by offering services such as recruiting, pr and even a sales pipeline by introducing strategics to company. almost on a daily basis, they will bring strategics to meet their portfolio companies, and for a number of them, those
introductions have come a significant portion of the sales pipeline. as you talk to entrepreneurs, that is a game changer. we hear that over and over again. overall we are very pleased, they have had great returns and they have invested in some of the iconic companies in our changing how venture capitalists operate. you are seeing other firms mimic these types of services. emily: i'm curious how you decide which venture funds to invest in and how venture compares to the other vectors you are focused on. atul: we invest in venture capital and growth equity. with that some bio, -- some buyout, primarily technology in some health care. we look at venture capital firms and are modeling five plus funds. a number of our managers had developed net funds to us with shorter timelines to liquidity and lower risks. we're looking at five x plus funds for venture capital. as i mentioned, the top 10 firms, they've been able to get into these elite companies and
they have been able to deliver those returns by being in those iconic companies. outside of the top 10 firms, we are looking for firms that can deliver multiples of their funds 500 to $1 billion of exit. emily: going into 2017, what is your view on consumer tech? atul: we invest across the spectrum of consumer and enterprise. we are bullish across the board. i think with the consumer in general, we like to see companies that are a bit more durable on the enterprise side, companies that continue to do well year-over-year while on the consumer side there's more volatility. with that in mind, we are still with consumer tech and enterprise. changne: that was emily speaking with a partner at accolade. that does it for this edition of "bloomberg technology." be sure to turn in tomorrow and i will bring you the highlights
caroline: a drug kills 12 at a berlin christmas market in one of the german government says was probably a deliberate attack. asian stocks slip to a two-week low. manus: sacked after the russian ambassador to turkey is shot dead in ankara by a gunman in voking syrian civil war. caroline: the bank of japan upgrade his outlook for the country's economy in its first decision since donald trump's election when. -- win. manus: the imf board backs christine lagarde despite her conviction for negligence by french court. ♪