tv Bloomberg Surveillance Bloomberg May 24, 2022 8:00am-9:00am EDT
>> you are still seeing people that are very apprehensive to invest. >> if the fed continues to tighten, to try to reduce demand , to get inflation under control, i would expect to see that flow through into discounted growth. >> there's a lot of negative things going around away from the u.s. that could really drag the u.s. market down. >> discontent has become global. we have had globalization of global discontent. >> this is "bloomberg surveillance" with tom keene, jonathan ferro, and lisa abramowicz. lisa: from a less windy but more foggy davos, switzerland at the world economic forum, this is "bloomberg surveillance." good morning. tom: shh. lisa: is that the effort of wind? we have a windstorm from tom keene. lisa abramowicz. jonathan ferro on assignment.
this fog really sets the moment for the mom -- early sets the mood for the moment we are in. tom: it really works this year. there's a some furnace. i will -- there's a somberness. charles schwab wrote a note this year that i have never seen in 51 years. there was a somber tone of this war in ukraine. lisa: not only that, but the supply-chain disruptions and how you re-create the spirit of globalization that is being rejected by so many different populations. i've got to say, the backdrop of markets yesterday, quiescent. but today a little less so. there's another downward tilt, and it comes after snap, and i know you wonder what kind of company it is, a lot of people call it social media, but abercrombie and fitch also coming out with some potentially negative headwinds, basically talking about some of the supply chain disruptions that have been greater than expected. tom: i had a conversation yesterday, and i don't think it
has been played enough here. if china opens and shanghai unloads, where do the boats go to? how do you unload them? lisa: that is a good question. you get so me to disruptions. how do you deal with volume you are not accustomed to? also coming out while davos is taking place were a number of downgrades to the potential chinese growth outlook. how does a world economy deal with 3% gdp growth in china? tom: i am more optimistic. i think technology p in here. i think there will be adapting and adjusting the emotion of coming off the bottom. let's do a data check real quickly. lisa is going to tell you about the view forward as well, and then it is only appropriate that she bring in our next guest. the data front is real simple. up we went yesterday, down we go today. dow futures negative 100 points. lisa has noted the strength of the euro. part of that, lagarde comments to our francine lacqua.
10 year yield round-trip over 48 hours. i do want to note, idiosyncratic turkish lira pounding through 16 this morning. that is a large deal for a politically challenged mr. erdogan. lisa: it seems like you have been hanging out with politicians. challenged. tom: i will tell you, one of the symbols here is isla zender stub -- is alexander stubb coming in with the ukrainian handkerchief in his suit. lisa: right now, i am so thrilled to have mike wilson on become a chief u.s. equity strategist at morgan stanley, who reflects some of the pessimism represented by the silly metaphors, you call them, of fog. you recently put out a note for you talk about 3200 as a realistic possibility for the s&p. what could get us there? mike: it was actually 3400, but what is 200 points in a bear market? it is valuation driven, as well
as driven by technical support. i think our out of consensus you this year which has come true is that multiples had to come down. that was a function of the fed and rates going up with slowing growth. that combination is pretty deadly. of course, the war unfortunately made both sides of that argument worse. so we have gotten to our price targets on multiples of 16.5 times more quickly, but now we think that multiple target is lower because of the war and other issues that are out there that mean the earnings probably come down even further. the risk of recession has gone up next year, so it is 14, 14 point five times, which is a 1400 basis points risk meme. from a technical standpoint, 3400 really jives with our overall view, the due hundred day moving average, approximately precode levels get there's a lot of reasons for the 3400, and we just don't think it is finished yet. lisa: do you think the stability
we are seeing right now in bond yields with tepid moves after some pretty violent moves upward in yields priced down, do you think we have reached some stasis stability that will give us a floor at least for the near-term? mike: we have probably been more neutral-ish on long duration. we feel like there was an overshoot to that 3.20% level over a couple of days. the reason why we think bonds have overshot is twofold. number one, we think there's a lot priced in for the fed now. it is a very aggressive path, particularly given the slowdown in growth we are seeing now. secondarily, the second part of that question, growth is starting to disappoint, so bonds are starting to look relatively attractive to stocks, and i set out locators are starting to move. that is one of the reasons why we have seen this recent move and bonds that have outperform stocks by about 7% or 8% this month. that is the asset allocators
moving. that stabilization, to your point, could lead to perhaps some of the longer duration growth stocks doing a bit better. they have taken most of the pain here. that does not mean they are going straight up. it means they may be on a relative basis can do a bit better. tom: you having your research note a phrase which i hear too often in davos. it is a fancy academic phrase from economics and finance. it is "necessary and sufficient." you can have a necessary and sufficient davos. we've got some gloom out there. you say it is necessary, but it is not sufficient. what do we need to go up? mike: exactly right, i did pull that phrase out, for the right reasons i think. people are bearish now, and that is a big change from six months ago, when i think everybody was overly optimistic about markets. forget about the economy and earnings, but markets had overshot. so that is good. that is sentiment. however, positioning is still
pretty ebullient. when we look at the asset owner community as opposed to the asset manager community, the asset owner community is way more important and significant for direction of markets. if they decide to go right or left, they were overwhelmed -- they will overwhelm any short-term's trading tragedies. we are seeing going back from stocks to the bond. tom: if we use the vix as a metaphor for this, do you have sufficiency with a stochastic vix from 30 out to 40, or is it more of a trend or moving average study where i need to see some persistency at a 40 level? mike: all bottoms are different. in a bear market, the question is what is going to form the bottom. some bottoms are very sharp, like in march 2020. we thought that was pretty
visible and easy to see with the stimulus. this is not going to be more up that, and our view. this is going to be or of a grind because everybody has kinda been involved, and the vix may not be. it is just going to stay at a more elevated level. one of the missing ingredients is we are not seeing that spike because we don't think we are going to get full on capitulation. this is more of a drift lower as these asset owner accounts are smaller -- are slower to move. it is an overhang on the overall market as opposed to capitulation. lisa: do you think people are overestimating the strength of the consumer? mike: that is probably one of our big out of consensus calls that we argue with clients. clients have been much more bullish on the sustainability of these trends. we are not calling for the consumer to shrink this year. our view, with about markets, not necessarily the consumer, and the consumer is going from an extreme level of spending, 7%, 8% growth in pce, to
something like 2%. while that is not negative growth, it is going to feel like negative growth to a lot of these companies that been building in tories, building for business at a higher level. that is the rate of change and i think that is the difference between our view and others. tom: mike wilson, thank you so much, with morgan stanley here this morning. he has been just stunning, dead on. lisa: he sees that 3400 mark as being possible for the s&p, and i got to say, how much capitulation if there's not going to be wholesale capitulation do you have to get if there is a drift lower? by the way, someone on twitter asking you for a friend if you can invest in the triple leveraged goat fund from switzerland. tom: we've got the goat fund here. i don't know if you can hear it, but were lisa and i are sitting, the goats will be like six feet away. lisa: they are literally haggling us. tom: this is the ellen's and
their goat farm -- ellen zentner goat farm, actually, brought to you by morgan stanley. ellen's and her -- ellen zentner was over flyfishing in switzerland once and picked up 40 acres of a goat farm. on radio, this is important. we've got to describe this. it's only fair. it is like avalanche territory here at davos. there's literally those safety gates up protecting from avalanche. and it is the frugality of the swiss. they've got different strains of lambs and goats, and they have been very vocal during the show. lisa: they also have bells around their necks. tom: they have their bells too? lisa: we have a lot more serious conversations. tom: about 11:00 p.m. last night, i was running around with the goats. lisa: that explains a lot. coming up, we have a really important conversation on the strength of europe at this
really tenuous moment, especially given some of the inflationary pressures. tom: pedro sanchez, the prime minister of spain. looking forward to that conversation. again, the meetings of the world a comic forum in dollars. stay with us on radio and on television. we will be here wednesday and thursday as well, and i am told in january. that is a good thing. this is bloomberg. ♪ ritika: keeping you up to date with news from around the world, with the first word, i'm ritika gupta. shares of snap are plunging in premarket trading and pushing other social media stocks down, too snap. cut its revenue and growth forecast. the company said it will also slow hiring. snap benefit from a surge in uses of its snapchat app during the pandemic, but business is
slowing as people return to offices and schools. christine lagarde says the currency bloc has reached a turning point in monetary policy. in an exclusive interview with bloomberg in dollars, lagarde said the ecb is not in panic mode, but said it will move at negative interest rates by the end of the year. europe's two largest economies kept growing in may. germany and france benefited from a sustained rebound and services that offset losses from ross's invasion and you could -- from russia's invasion in ukraine. the biden administration's trade representative says the u.s. must be strategic when it comes to deciding whether to lift tariffs on chinese goods. it has to be done in terms of how to effectively realign the u.s. and china trade economic relationship. president biden said he would consider removing trump era tariffs. more americans are quitting
their jobs than ever, and few are sticking around a new positions. amongst workers who took a new job and 22 anyone, the share who had been in their previous position for less than 12 months rose by 6.5%, compared with a year earlier. that is according to linkedin. global news 24 hours a day, on air and on bloomberg quicktake, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. i'm ritika gupta. this is bloomberg. ♪ how will your business adapt to change? you could hire an office full of peyton mannings. what's up, peyton? good morning, peyton. hold for peyton. they'd huddle.... welcome to the peytonverse. such a visionary. game plan... you go. no, you go! and call audibles... double our investment in omaha! omaha! omaha! omaha! or you could use workday. omaha. the finance, hr and planning system used by over half of the fortune 500. for a be-agile-like-an-mvp world. workday. for a changing world.
>> the result of a monetary inflation is high nominal gdp growth, and then that gets absorbed by prices, so you get low real growth, and that produces stagflation. we are on the cusp of it. how do you define stagflation? there are different ways, but basically, the way we look at stagflation is in terms of how
it affects markets. tom: the economics of bob prince of bridgewater associates come original with rebecca patterson and others. some really interesting talk there about nominal gdp and how it holds into rates. lisa: perhaps it was the goats in the background. al from new jersey road and, they are not goats, they are sheep. -- new jersey road in -- new jersey wrote in, they are not goats, they are sheep. tom: it has become a really interesting and different conversation of europe. we now speak with the prime minister of spain, pedro sanchez joins us this morning. lisa is going to start with the obligatory questions on europe at the moment, t i raine. i want to talk to you about how thunderstruck i was is an uninformed american on this stunning dp pulling -- stunning
de-peopleing of spain. the arch american fear is the de-peopling of the planes, the midwest. how do you push against the de -peopling of rural spain? pm sanchez: this is one of our major challenges, and that is why and that is why nr next generation european union funds we are more or less allocating 70 billion euros for the next year's. one of the transversal political goals, apart from the ecological transition, the digital transformation, will be the social. at the end of the day it is important not oddly -- not only to have social cohesion come but
all the territories from spain have opportunities. tom: how is that social cohesion and the geographic cohesion and into the modern spanish capitalism, with the politics of spain, the fractious nature of the politics of spain? what will be the form of capitalism that will advance that technology to all of the people of spain? pm sanchez: if we compare the response the european union is giving first to the pandemic and afterwards to the consequences of the war, compared to the financial crisis in the year 2008, it is completely the opposite. so we are now having a look funds for public investments in order to modernize our economy create on digital and ecological transition, at the end of the day, also to invest in people, and human capital. that is why we are not only
allocating public and in for this organization. also we are transforming our regulation. for instance, a huge revolution in our system, and the labor market, pension reform. so we are actually transforming spain in a very positive way. lisa: how much of a challenge has energy prices been, and have you done everything you can do to bring that price down? pm sanchez: absolutely. lisa: are you looking at additional measures? pm sanchez: we are allocating 16 billion euros in order to help our population, but also specific sectors are very touched by the increase of prices, especially the energy prices. but we havee the two things which are very important. the first is to agree with the european commission and the european council that we are an
island because the connections we have through the peer and ease with the rest of the european -- through the pyrenees with the rest of the european union, we are an island. we also have 57% of our capacity comes from renewal. so an energy mix is different to other places in europe. not only spain, but also portugal. that is why we agreed with the commission to fix a price cap, a temporary price cap for gas for electricity generation, and i think that with this we are also going to reduce the on sale markets. lisa: there are other nations struggling a bit more and could potentially struggle all the more so if gas supplies are cut
off from russia. are you prepared for some sign of recession in europe that could hamper the spanish economy? pm sanchez: i think that of course, the economic consequences of the war are harming the situation of the economy in europe and of course in spain. it is also true that we have good fundamentals of the spanish economy, first because less than 8% of our gas imports come from russia. less than 5% of the imports come from russia. as i mentioned before, 57% of our capacity is wooden ovals, so we are much better prepared, and not many people knows, but 1/3 of the total retransfer capacity of the european union is in spain. 50% of the lng is stored in the
iberian peninsula, which is the problem we are facing. the lack of interconnectivity. that is why i think it is really important to invest in those interconnections to provide also from the south of europe alternatives to the central and north of europe. tom: we carry this forward, and i could say what did spain get right and germany get wrong on natural gas, but i don't want to go there. lisa: we want to go there. [laughter] tom: thank you for joining us today, pedro sanchez, the prime minister of spain. much to talk about there. really what is interesting after spain and finland is the unevenness of the hydrocarbon sweat. lisa: and the lack of connectivity, as the prime and there was just saying. how do you build that out at a time of stress, especially when there is some spending capacity and more being brought online in terms of fiscal spending, but
the pressures of inflation from europe to the u.s. tom: one of the things that has hung over me is the 100 page jp morgan document about six weeks ago come where christyan malek and his team frame out 130, $130 brent. are we prepared for that? pm sanchez: and -- lisa: and is that even relevant when the refineries are becoming the problem, that you don't have enough refined goods to sustain a steady decline in the end product for consumers. tom: we had an up market yesterday after the comments of mr. dimon after their investor day. snap tools really not doing well at all. so we come that down a little bit. dow futures, -226. the yield comes right back, up five, down five. it is like the winds yesterday. lisa: has to be glued down. tom: it is this kind of thing from yesterday. this is bloomberg. ♪
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economic forum in davos, into this evening, into the parties tonight and tomorrow. lisa abramowicz and tom keene, we welcome all of you. sort of halfway through. lisa: halfway through davos. i think there's this feeling that people are willing to say things off the record about the outlook, and there is a great degree of concern about how things are going to proceed going forward. tom: everyone is looking at their cell phones, but they are not looking at the markets. the markets are pretty quiescent. to me what they are looking at is the news flow, including going to chinese-russian exercises somewhere near japan as the president is on his asian trip. lisa:lisa: a lot of people have been talking about the need to speak with policymakers. executives have been talking about how they are so happy to have the chance to get some visibility. our tariffs going to get lifted? are they going to be imposed? one of the potential embargoes? i think the focus is
important here. tom: the data checks have really been suspect. go feed the goats and the lambs. so we will go to a data check in new york with kailey leinz. kailey: good morning. i'm other a goat nor a sheep, but i am watching these markets. after the gains of yesterday, we are seeing losses in the futures session. my producer pointed out to me earlier today that in the last 10 days we have seen a gain of at least 1% on the s&p 500. nine of those times have been followed by a loss for the index. on average by about one point 4%. lo and behold, futures are down about 1.2% at this point in the session. of course, it is a little bit worse for the nasdaq 100 coming down about 1.8%. that is largely a snap story, which i will come back to. as you are seeing selling inequities, there is some buying in the bond market. down about four basis points on the 10-year gilts, 2.8 1 -- the 10 year yield, 2.81%. it is perhaps a stronger euro,
back out to around 107 on euro dollar. christine lagarde saying negative rates will be is in of the past by the third quarter. she reinforce that view in an interview here on bloomberg and downplayed the risk of european recession. as for what is weighing on the equity market and an individual level, snap really creating a drag across tech. it already had expectations for profit and revenue that were below what the street expected. the company cutting even below zone guidance causing that the macroeconomic environment is deteriorating for your talking about inflation, supply chain issues, the war in ukraine, all of that affecting the way advertisers want to spend on the platform. snap shares are down 33% in early hours. pinterest and meta platforms also lower by about 15% and 8% respectively. i thought the commentary out of abercrombie & fitch was super
interesting. they reported a $.27 per share loss in the quarter, far below analyst expectations who saw a six cent per share profit. but the company talking about higher costs on freight, and they are pulling back on promotional activity. of course, that promotional activity pullback not offsetting all of those higher costs. that stock is down 28%. but that sounds to me like exactly what snap was talking about. lisa: thank you so much for that. right now, just to focus on the markets, one of the big questions that i think a lot of people have been wondering is how much we have found bond stability. we had this massive selloff. you talk about trying to recoup some of the gains. we're getting an increasing number of wall street strategists pointing to new stability as duration becomes more -- uncle rourke joins us now.
-- michael o'rourke joins us now. do you buy this stability? michael: with the volatility we have seen in the equity market, investors are going back to bonds. it does not mean that they won't resume their self at some point, but obviously they are looking for something a little more comforting amidst what has been a really rocky 2022 for the equity market. lisa: this is actually something bob prince was saying as well, and we were hearing about this rotation away from stocks and into bonds, and yet some people are saying that bond stability will lead to stock stability, that that has actually been the big factor here that has been driving some of the volatility. do you think there are more losses to come on the equity space? michael: i think short term you see bond stability and help stock stability, but longer term you are seeing a repricing and rewriting -- and rewriting --
and rerating, but obviously there is still much so uncertainty unfolding in 2020 there is more to come. tom: the equity we comes from a lack of bid -- the equity weakness comes from a lack of bid. what are the technical indicators that show a dearth of bid, which is where you go down further? i'm thinking about agent stuff -- about ancient stuff like put call ratio and stuff. what do they say about the spirit of the bid? michael: one thing i am focus on on here is volume. we have seen it drive up, especially during the rallies. bloomberg had an interesting story thusly -- story last week talking about the put call dropping very low. you had head funds -- you had
hedge funds not competent to own the market itself. tom: michael, the headline thing in terms of liquidity is to trillion dollars and the overnight trust market. the repo market. our animals like you suggesting that money needs to move over to equities, to establish a bid? michael: it won't move to equities. people should be pushing for that safe money. people have not parked at the fed because they needed in a safe spot. when the fed starts its balance sheet normalization process, that is where i suspect that money will go. it is just the treasury instruments that come back on the market, but not to the equity market. lisa: we are watching snap shares down more than 30% after
a downside projection for what is to come and an unexpectedly deteriorating macroeconomic backdrop. is this part of a bubble bursting in tech, and pockets of tech, or do you think this is an idiosyncratic story having to do with a number of social media companies that have been overpriced? michael: i do think it is a bubble busting. i think this is very somewhere to the 2000-2002 environment. there's a number of growth names already down 60% to 75%. we are coming out of an environment where 2021 is probably going to prove to be a peak year and earnings, and that was a very stimulus driven year, so now we will look at the second half of 2022. obviously we are going into more tightening as the mortgage unfolds. i think that's with the volatility is and that is why these prices are so dramatic is people don't know where the real
trend of organic business is. when these growth stocks stop growing, it is a big problem. sa: so when do you get the courage to buy? would you get the sense that we had a bottom? michael: there's two major indicators that i think are really important here. one is financial conditions. obviously chairman powell has talked about financial conditions need to tighten, bill dudley, the former europe fed president and vice chair of the fomc, he is saying conditions need to tighten. stocks and bonds need to reprice. i would keep the index back at 2000 levels so we are not tied it all, which is tighter than the past two years, and the s&p 500 would have to change. it started the year at 175% of gdp, down to 140% of gdp. but the 2000 bubble peak we were
at 120% of gdp, so there is still a long way to go before we find stability. with all of the uncertainty just in the headline risk out there, i would not take the chance right now. i would be more cautious and focus on value needs have more attractive valuations at this time. tom: are you going to be in cash or something wicked defensive? michael: because i tend to be more cautious, i would definitely have more cash on hand. for investors who have to be invested, i see this as 2000 and 2002. the past 15 years, the russell 1000 has outperformed. value has outperformed by about 18% this year. that's how i would look at it. if you need to be invested, be invested in value. tom: michael rourke, thank you
so much for joining today. what i found really important there, and this is away from what i do or what i feel about, is the liquidity study and the volume study. i'm guilty of this, i don't do enough chat on the volume belief of the street. i just don't buy it. michael rourke does, and it is important he brings that up come of the dearth of volume right now. lisa: thin volumes typically lead to low conviction trading, and that is when you get some incredible swings. whether you get people looking to stocks or bonds, you see that activity. i find it interesting you ask about cash and that you have a triple leveraged all-cash considering your optimism on corporations. tom: this is my story. i look at the choices i've had to over the years, and when you lose money 10 years in a rout, you end up with the triple leveraged all-cash fund. there's four ways to go here. i go to stocks, i go to cash.
i'm short, i go to cash. i'm in cash, i go along. i'm in cash, i go short. this is not as easy as people think it lisa: -- people think. lisa: he's in triple leveraged all product sneakers, i think. clawing back some of the losses a little bit, s&p futures down 1% with that euro stronger versus the dollar, but losing a little bit of momentum. this is bloomberg. ritika: keeping you up to date with news from around the world, with the first word, i'm ritika gupta. ecb president strong fiscal stimulus while it fights inflation. the guard spoke to bloomberg in an exclusive interview. she said there's no need to panic. she echoed that there are no
concerns for a 50 basis point hike. alexei navalny has lost his appeal against a new driven -- any prison sentence. he will be taken to a prison aimed at isolating putin's top critic further. quarantining thousands of workers in china to make sure they are free of coronavirus's part is the logic -- the workers are being housed in an old military camp. bloomberg has learned -- is in talk to buy intel to create a giant in diabetes devices. an agreement could be worked -- could be reached in the coming weeks. walmart and its partner plan to expand their drum delivery hubs to 16 states by the end of the year. deliveries will cost $3.99 and orders can weigh up to 10 pounds. still, there are big regulatory hurdles. so for the fea has not written
effect a lower interest rate will have and how quickly. tom: two the economics of gita gopinath, worldwide news a number of months ago, the first managing director of easy deputy ash director of the imf -- of the imf. the panels are a big deal and they are almost calmer and they seem more normal this year because europe is not the -- because it is not the super crush of people trying to get in. lisa: a lot of people read less crowded as being a bit productive because you hope people who are actually here can work. tom: a panel that would be widely attended if they had it, i am making it up, the meetings of the world economic forum, it would be attended. is this 1998? joining us, damian sassower, chief strategist for bloomberg.
this is a hugely international davos because the americans, maybe the people from the united kingdom in less attendance. what is the state of em finance as they come to davos? damian: i think the state of em finance is that you have a tale of two stories. countries like brazil were early on in the cycle that tightened aggressively, and you are starting to see envision rollover. the markets are rewarding brazil , the front end of the curve, for being there for getting inflation under control. indonesia failed to move this morning, you've know you saw the philippines come off the reservation last week. you saw india and malaysian as well, and the inflation impulse is not nearly as strong. while you can finance less expensively in asia, is demand really there in an inflationary environment. that remains to be seen. tom: what a great honor to speak with ricardo hausman.
you read everything, i read everything i could on original sin. can you get business done in your own currency or do you have to go to a more dominant currencies like the dollar? damian: the fact of the matter is i think you have no choice but to fund in your local currency because you really can't fund in dollars, especially the low-quality emerging-market credits. bb's, even seeing colombia and serbia, levels are surging through the roof. spreads are incredibly wide. the problem is they could still go wider. we are only back to taper tantrum 2013 levels. that is a risk. you're not seeing a lot of people accessing the u.s. capital markets, at least not in the em space, and i think the same goes for high-yield honesty want to pay coupons to your
creditors. lisa: we have seen the lockdowns really hamper growth prospects for a lot of southeast asian nations, but particularly because china is such a big component. how do you view the recent easing and fiscal support that china is talking about? overnight we got more of that. how much can that support them economy flat on its back because people can't get out to spend? damian: that is to question -- that is the question. it does not really even matter because the demand for housing, for equities locally from locals, is incurable week. we have not seen anything like it. so what is going to take to get chinese demand back on track. it's going to take massive fiscal stimulus. it is going to take some monetary cuts on the back of that as well. we are really just not there yet. so long as china remains
off-line, emerging markets i think will as well. lisa: it delicate question for you, but one of the discussions underpinning a lot of the talks of emerging-market credit and the potential risk of defaults is that a lot of the obligations stem from china. china is one of the biggest lenders to the emerging markets complex, although it is not transparent. how much of a risk is it that risk in china will lead to a less benevolent mood in terms of debt forgiveness? damian: that is an interesting one. the fact of the matter is china has been billing to work with other countries on that front. more so certainly then u.s. creditors, quite frankly. but you are absolute right, we are smelling the sea of change there. they have a very weak return on investment. look at sri lanka. my point is exact way that with angola. how much longer will china float the boat there remains to be seen, but my guess is they have
bigger problems to worry about domestically and that will take them away from the berlin -- that will take them away from the further landscape. tom: with all of the development we see people that trade as you do in the international space, and they got to bury the money in switzerland. in the old days i know you did all the private banks, but the idea that you picked up 40 acres in dollars, switzerland for the sassower lambs and goat farm, i think it is great that you did that. damian: it is beautiful. i am more of a caribbean tax haven kind of guy. maybe mauritius. but i hear you, things are getting a little bit tough. sure. tom: the goats and the lambs are flexible. [laughter] lisa: what is the difference between goats and sheep?
sheep or grazers going around eating the grass. so it is the way you forage is really the difference. tom: forage is grazing? lisa: that's right, yes. tom: she never ceases to amaze . . me [laughter] lisa: i thing i -- to amaze me. [laughter] lisa: i thing i rendered him speechless. tom: they be in saas hour of the goats and lamb -- damian sassower of the goats and lamb ltd. seriously, there are some really important things going on in em. damian mentions the philippines with their election. mr. orb on making serious -- mr. orban -- mr. orban making some serious accusations.
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