tv Closing Bell CNBC January 28, 2013 3:00pm-4:00pm EST
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just like you. go national. go like a pro. well, it might have been the coolest picture of the day. but this is the coolest video of the day. no, it is not a giant foam party. it's a sea foam invasion in an australian town. this is in mooloolaba. it is where that sea foam is just coming up like -- i don't think anyone's seen it before. >> thanks for watching "street signs," everybody. >> "closing bell" is next. hi, everybody. good afternoon. welcome to "the closing bell." i'm maria bartiromo. the dow struggling with the win streak. >> i'm scott lautner in for bill today. we're on top of a market that's
making front page news. which stocks are leading us on this run and which could put us over the top for new all-time highs. >> a what we're looking at into the mile stretch. what has apple been punished for. has this massive slide been warranted? >> plus a huge earning report from yahoo out in an hour from now. we'll have the market moving information right here first. >> let's check the markets as we approach the final hour. the dow industrial average up 8.5 points. 13,904. nasdaq composite looks like this. similar chart pattern on the nasdaq. we see the nasdaq now showing a gain on the session of 10.5 points. and the s&p 500 tonight looks like this. as you see negative. down a fraction on the standard & poor's. dropping 2% today for the first time since april. are investors moving away from
plays? >> joining us john from cgfi group and rick santelli. rick, i'll go to you first. we're talk about moving treasuries. is 2% enough to push people in mass into equities? >> you know, i don't think so. i think the percentages are much higher, but it is a start. and keep in mind global inflows to equities global was about $55 billion. that was a record for january. if you look at global inflow of bond funds and bond etfs, it was a whisker under $30 billion. so there's still money going in, but not as much. and of course the anxiety of potentially healthy global economy is always going to give traders an excuse to try to sell what is close to some historically low levels of yield, high levels of price. >> yeah. and when you look at equities you see this huge move in the markets. are we taking a bit of a breather?
jordan, how do you see it? >> i think it's been constrained. uncertain election and fiscal cliff. and all of a sudden people are starting to pay attention to the fact there are -- inflation's low. i think the market starts to run, forest run. >> not a lot of alternatives out there. right? >> even the high paying growth stocks are paying more to bonds. and the allocation hasn't happened yet. but beware. i think that could happen. >> john, what gets people to make the great exodus out of treasuries and into equities? if you're looking to the catalyst of what can take it to the next level, that would certainly be one of them. >> yeah. i think we have to see a lot higher level of inflation which we haven't seen thus far. you have corporate yields, dividend yields over the corporate yields on their bonds. getting out of some of the
corporate bonds and into stocks. people will open up the january statement and see the stock market is going to be up about 5%. yet they're earning 3% on a ten-year treasury. that's going to be an eye opener. i think it's going to be some time before we see a big exodus out of bonds and into the stock market. just for the simple fact that we don't see any inflation on the horizon. i think actually in terms of liquidity, indian central bank is going to meet tomorrow. they're probably going to be the next entrants of the liquidity party. they're going to cut rates probably 20 basis points tonight. we're waiting for the indian central bank to help out in the liquidity push so far. >> so john, where are you seeing much of the money move? what sectors or where do you think the leadership will be in equities? >> we still -- the home builders and the financials, one is going to lead the other through this. we still have the latest housing
numbers were not so good, but it's really because the inventory levels have really become/have gotten low. we also see the banks are sitting on their portfolio loans and real estate. just because they're seeing that prices are starting to go up. there is the foreclosures that kind of get put on the back burner. and the banks aren't at this point really willing to give up their inventory as we see prices tick higher. we have a two-fold problem right now where we have less inventory, more buyers. people are afford that mortgage rates are going to jump. there's not a lot out there to choose from. i think that's what's pushing the housing market right now. and wall street journal had an article this morning saying not only that but as hedge funds and others buy these up, we'll see more carpets put in, redos, kitche kitchens, baths, that kind of thing. that's going to be a rise for home depot stocks, et cetera. >> makes sense. >> what do you make of what rick
referenced? all of the money coming into equity mutual funds? is it a sign that the money's too late or overbought? or does it validate the fact the market can go higher? >> i wouldn't read too much into a one-month trend. what you need to see to go higher is a reacceleration of global growth. not only global growth but also here in the united states. i mean, we're still at stall speed when it comes to the u.s. economy. 1% to 1.5% of economic growth. so you're going to have to see a stronger housing market you'll have to see a stronger real estate market as well and auto sales. and you'll have to see global trend and global trade start to pick up in order to push the market multiples higher. so our expectation for s&p target for the 2013 is roughly about 1550 to 1575. that's based off earnings of 105
for the s&p. >> interesting. that's not -- there are some people who have come on the air whether it's jeremy siegel or others who say you're going to get multiple expansion this year and you're going to hit all-time highs for the markets. and obviously we're not that far away from a dow standpoint. >> look. i mean -- >> i don't think bernanke is going to take his foot off the accelerator when we're sitting at a triple top here and allow the markets. i think he watches charts as well. as well as the rest of the market. so i don't think he's going to all of a sudden decide this is the week to take the foot off the accelerator. i think we look back to '96 where greenspan made the comments of exuberance after the market doubles. it doubled again two years later. so i think if we saw the fed come out this week and said something that we think that the market is getting too frothy, i don't think that should scare away the individual investor to think it's run its course.
if you look at the cyclicality of earnings, it is probable 92 percent. we're looking at a high of highs over 160 in the next two to three years -- >> in order to get that -- hold on a second. in order to get that you're going to need revenue growth and operating margin expansion. you're -- >> i think you should take a trip to the midwest and you'd see a lot of operating leverage. if the united states becomes independent in natural gas and oil by 2020 like they say we will and you see the fracking being picked up now in terms of what's going in oil and gas country, there's a lot of positive stories that people who haven't been in the market for a long time fail to neglect. all they know is the stock market crash and now the great recession. >> in order to get this to have -- in order to get that to happen, you're going to need the economy not to grow 1.5%, but to
slowly move in 2013 up to a 3% gdp trajectory. and that beyond that, to get to the multiple that you're -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> what about the decline in the supply of equities? you need cash on the balance sheets to be put to work. and mergers, share buybacks, repurchases, higher roe projects. you're going to shrink in the market when all the sandy rebuild is going to go into the economy. i could see second quarter, third quarter a real acceleration because of the sandy spend. >> we have to leave it there. we appreciate that. thank you so much. yahoo shares up nearly 30% since marissa mayer. >> stuck in neutral for a couple years. we got to see a number better
than last year's $446 million. that could be harder than ever. one yahoo's been redesigning pages to make user friendly. two don't have ads. so those are potential head winds. one possibility is search revenue it ends up picking up the slack. >> all right, jon. thank you so much. we're in the final stretch. 50 minutes before the closing bell sounds for the day. good movers with individual names now. >> how do you make the moves in the market? the pros on how to play these milestones are coming up. then toyota knocking gm out of the top auto maker spot. does that mean you should buy into toyota and avoid gm stock now? and we'll bring you the yahoo earnings release. will marissa mayer prove herself
welcome back. the market's incredibly close to several milestones. jackie de anless is watching today. >> hey. it's been fueled by good increase and tolerance of risk from investors. last week saw some impressive milestones. the s&p crossing 1500 for the first time since 2007. it's above that mark right now. if it ekes out a again today, it will be -- on for the best january performance since 1994. for the month the dow is roughly 6% higher. it could see its best january since 1989 when it gained 8%. also the dow transports reaching a new 52-week high. the 13th consecutive day. and also don't forget the nasdaq
on friday closed more than 12%. that wasn't its all time high but still quite significant. even as apple lost ground, it hit a milestone. it relinquished its most valuable company interest to exxon on saturday. all eyes will watch between the two. back to you. >> thank you so much. so if you believe nothing rose to the sky is the market voice for a pullback, we thought we'd talk to a couple of people who can read what's happening in realtime as good as anyone. >> jared greco has been on the floor for 12 years. he says while there is some talk of a pullback, the table is still set for significant upside here. also our bob pisani who of course lives here on the floor of the stock exchange. good to see you. you think this market still wants to go higher. what do you see happening? >> it does. there's a global appetite for risk. we're seeing it from the banks
and pension funds. 3.5% in bonds, 5.1% up into january. you need to consider where your money is. >> bob, there are those who say the market's overbought. that strauss-kahn dit's due for. you have new money coming into the market. what's the answer? >> the answer right now is earnings are good, not great. and likely bottoming. third quarter is likely the -- that's below the historic average. here's the big question. if you believe the global economy is turning around, china's turning around, u.s. improving, europe muddles through, you can argue for a multiple expansion. you guys were talking about this in the prior discussion. now all of a sudden you're into 1600, 1650 on the s&p 500. so where are you on the global
growth story determines how you feel about stocks right now. >> well, you're not even considering the federal reserve though. isn't part of the biggest reason we've got so much money moving in is we don't have anything moving in? >> if the global economy truly improves, i think it would stand the fed pulling back. that would be a head wind for the stock market if there were clear signs they are backing away from their monetary easing stance. right now i think you'll take an improving global economy over an aggressive day. give me any choice any time. >> two of the biggest legs there reside in the home building space. you have home builders clearing out some inventory or actually homeowners clearing out the inventory. looking better for home sales. starting to get the trucks going a bit. once they do that and we see that move, then you see jobs immediately you're going to see a couple of down ticks early in unemployment.
which is then going to be the impetus for the fed to say we've done our job. the economy's on its own. >> where are you seeing the most buyers consistently? >> consistently we're still seeing home builders -- i mean, the biggest play is you're seeing home builders on any type of pullback, it seems there are bids that fill in. energy names. that's clearly where people have been very underweight. and if they're not they're focussed too lightly on it. prices are starting to tick up. people are going to be paying more. >> put up the sectors for the month here. i want to point out it's been a broad based rally. normally you get one to two sectors up. look. how many are up 6% and 7%? not only energy and industrials. these are cyclical names. health care. health care's a defensive name. so you got people who are buying into the -- >> it's a political name now. >> -- and hiding out in a deferencive name. to me there's a lot of room for rotating. deferencive health ca--
>> how much does the data matter? we're going to get a jobs report on friday. how closely are the markets going to be watching that? because the fed factors into that too. >> just like the durable goods number this morning, that will be further confirmation of an improving u.s. economy and will add fuel to the fire. the economic numbers matter tremendously. the global growth story is what the story is. >> sure. but the point is if the data's bad it means the fed's going to stick around longer. >> i think they have more downside risk at this point. >> tails you win, heads you win too. i don't subscribe to that by the way. >> if there's a really positive move in the data, i would be impressed. i think we have more down risk with that. flat or lower expectations. and that would be a problem. at the end of the day -- health care, i think you've got to be mindful. big initiative of the administration for the next four years. people are still sorting out what that big document says and how much it's going to weigh on
the well points and numbers. >> you're a numbers guy. watch the old historic highs. in 2000 we hit it and 2007. and those big breaks right after that. there will be a lot of resistance around that area. if you want to talk technicals, i think that's where you'll have trouble. >> good to see you both. thank you so much. >> all right. have about 40 minutes to go before we ring the bell. the dow industrial average is at 13,900 on on track for its best january since 1989. >> 100 points away from 14,000. wow. toyota once again the king of the road overtaking gm as the world's largest auto maker. but which stock will drive your portfolio? those stocks go head to head next. speaking of gm it was almost inconceivable the stock would be kicked out of the dow. find out which stocks would get the boot in the next six years. washington tries to rein in
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continue to climb. about 5 or 10 cents. it is closes its refinery in port redding. this causes a run-up in gasoline futures to nearly a four month high up about 2% on the session. we are looking at a refinery that prous produces about 50,000 gallons of gasoline a day. it's key because it's in the new york harbor. back to you. >> thanks very much. shares of toyota lower today despite the automaker reclaiming the top position. should you be adding toyota stock to your portfolio or stick with gm? carter worth is at oppenheimer. then zachary ca rary car birks .
carter based on the charts which do you like? >> we kinds of like them both. no question toyota is the better operator but they're very correlated. if you look at their behavior over the last year and a half or thereabouts. automakers are generally on the move. we like them both higher here. and it's just a function of playing momentum that's in the market. these are beta trades and they're working. >> so you would put money to both then? >> that's right. >> what do you think, zach? >> first of all carter and i both clearly got the casual monday memo. i think a lot of -- are you picking the stocks that go up? are you picking the stocks that go up more? while these may be beta trades, i'm more interested in what names are tethered to potent interesting fundamentals. haven't really broken out. i think momentum trades are going to carry you only so far. automobiles in a world that is
driven largely by credit rather than organic growth. does not interest me as much as the tech earnings we have coming up this week. >> one thing, of course, there is a currency issue here. and toyota's got a big up in the movement of the yen and general motors does not. that's always a feature for the toyota preference if someone's going to take that view. >> i see. go ahead, zach. >> i mean, i think in general it's not like are those stocks having good wind at their sails, which they do. it's where's the juice in the economy? i think the fact you have so many consumers who continue to be levered in order to buy cars, yeah that was true in 2005. that just makes me uneasy in a debt laden world. >> so you don't want money in either of these stocks? >> no, i don't. >> and carter you figure the momentum is there, buy into the momentum. >> sure. and you can see the way both
have reacted. and auto manufacturers in general. these stocks are not near all-time highs opposed to other stox. there's a lot of juice left from what we can see. >> we'll leave it there. thank you, gentlemen. really interesting. >> one likes both, other doesn't like either. about a half an hour to go before the close up today. the dow a little over a hundred points away from 14,000. this not an honest guy. this guy takes advantage of little people. >> it's a quintessential example of that on wall street if you want to friend, get a dog. >> something tells me these two are still not done attacking one another. more fallout from that clash coming up. plus it used to be the company that could do no wrong. now it seems apple can do no right. but why? what's changed? we look for the answers next. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 you should've seen me today.
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so what's keeping the index afloat? seema mody has those details. >> hey there, scott. when apple falls it usually takes the nasdaq down with it. the nasdaq has been able to eke out a gain over the last four weeks. here's what's been fueling the index. first netflix up a whopping 75% on strong earnings and an uptick in sub skrooscriber base. marvell getting reviving. dell and life tech both up. today's tech winners include biogen. optimism around its ms drug is getting the street excited. by moving higher out of barons, facebook up ahead of earnings. and apple recouping some of its losses. apple has reclaimed its title of world's most valuable company which it lost last week.
>> let's get back to apple's woes. last two months, apple stock down better than 20%. the all-time high of $720 a share seems like ancient history when you look at this chart. by why? >> the company sold 8 million iphones last quarter. that's up from 37 million last year. but apple has a whopping $137 billion in cash on hand. enough to buy credit card giant visa. and tech bellwethers like intel based on the current market caps. but jeff seka says he's bearish. both are joining us now. >> jeff, good to have you on the program. thanks for joining us. you're bearish on the stock now
we've already seen a selloff of 20%. how much further down can it go? and what's the problem? >> right now everybody's reeling from the curse of high expectations and what's next. apple at $700 a share was hard to find anybody that said anything negative about apple. now everybody's wondering about whether or not they're going to be able to generate the type of growth that everyone's expected. i think at this price the stock is still vulnerable. you can't look at it in terms of -- in terms of where it was and where it is now. you still have to look at their forward growth. the forward growth is still suspect. there's still a lot that has to be proven before apple to be able to get the type of momentum. plus it's become a momentum stock. which in and of itself is an issue because the more momentum investors are in a stock, the less you could trust how much volatility there is in that stock. so investors have to wait. they have to see whether there's
going to be any sustainability in the product lines whether they're going to be able to adapt to the emerging markets in terms of their price points. and they can't continue to roll out old -- new versions of old products. it has t inn >> so help me out here. how can two smart guys have two completely different takes on what apple's story is going forward? our guests just now said growth is still very suspect. in your note you say growth is still very solid. i mean, one of you is wrong and clearly their margin growth is not what it was. so what's the story? >> well, i guess disagreement is what makes the market. that's why it's -- the way we see it differently i think a few things. let's take the ipad business. apple had a tap let market of 55% to 60%. between last year and 2017 can
sustain a 50% to 60% share there. on the iphone business, it's clearly slowing down. maybe faster than we thought. even the iphone side, we believe they can grow volumes from 130 million units last year to 200 million units every the next years. someone like a samsung supplies almost 500. we think if apple do sign with major carriers like china mobile, like ntd.com, that can be a driver. then finally one more thing that can juice earnings is to have $137 billion of cash. $40 billion of that is on -- we expect the company to become more aggressive with the cash distribution and buybacks over the next 12 to 18 months. in terms of -- this is where i do agree with the other speaker. it is going to take time to repair this. we think an iphone 5 refresh comes out in june. a low end iphone which i would
highlight is not in anybody's estimates today may come out in september. and the buybacks in q4. but the issue being there's not much in the next few months. even i would concede. >> jeff, what about all that? a lot of positives for apple here. >> let's talk about china growth for a minute. emerging market growth in general is going to have a lot to do with the price point that apple is going to be able to deliver their products. when we saw walmart come out with the iphone and prices lower, you had to see that there was an issue in margins. i would be very suspect of emerging market growth that had -- before the price point is set. if we're able to see how much they could be sold for, then we'd get an idea of what growth there's going to be. right now everybody has been zeroed in on the three major products. but we have to remember the
apple tv has been hyped up for so long right now that there's another expectation that's building up. one thing we have to know is expectations never end well. >> let me just in real quick. kulbinder on innovation, they could come out with another iphone 5. anyone who wants an iphone from apple already has one in the developed world. so what is a phone going to do as the next piece of innovation that's going to take the company and the stock to the next level? it has to be something else. is a new product category, doesn't it? >> not necessarily. on the iphone side they supply 240 carriers. someone like samsung has 500 carriers. someone like china mobile won't actively drive the iphone. when it will i think it will help. clearly i think samsung have caught up with the high end of the market. but i think apple's competitive
advantage is across the entire platform, the iphone, the ipad, and the mac. they will provide dijal data on any platform you want to. relative invasion is they can give you the best computer experience to a consumer going forward. >> all right. we will leave it there. gentlemen, thank you very much. got 20 minutes before the closing bell closes for the day. we have the dow down on 4 points. our next guest says this recent rally is real and the bears are finally hibernating. liz saunders lays it out ahead. and is marissa mayer turning yahoo around? stay with us. ♪
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standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the planet... dragon is captured. is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it. siemens. answers. welcome back. if you think washington's been reeling in executive pay, think again. at least that's according to t.a.r.p.'s inspector general. mary thompson with the story. >> hey there. t.a.r.p. is charging the government's taxpayer money by doling out hefty executive pay packages. the firm's still on the hook. as of last year for government assistance received during the financial crisis. the special master of executive
compensation for approving pay plans president agi, gm, and ally. 54% of the firm's 69 top executives earned more than $3 million. only one earned less than $1 million. too much cash. 70% receiving salaries of half a million dollars while fewer took long-term stock grants that were dependent on the company's hitting specific benchmarks. also granted to executives ally's. that plans were improperly vetted and analyzed at the office of the special master. treasury in turn pointing out at these firms is down 50% since the office was set up. and the $350 billion owed during the initial offices per view. stocks on a tear this month
and this year. my next guest thinks it continues at least for now. >> liz ann saunders points to the strength of housing and manufacturing as for proof of the recovery. but he says stocks are headed higher but there's still anxiety we could see a pullback. they both join us here on set. let's talk to you first, liz ann. the bears could make the argument the economy really isn't that good. europe really isn't that good. still a train wreck. the fed is artificially propping up the market yet we're 100 points away in the dow 14,000. time for the bears to go home or what? >> the bears have been making that and could make that argument for a long time now, for years now. i think it was a major inflection point in march of 2009. i think what we're seeing is dissipating macro risks. and no we're starting to capture sort of the heart and minds of
the individual investor. i agree that i think -- i would actually like to see a bit of a pullback in the near term. >> make you feel a bit better. >> i feel forced into the corner. >> what about the broad, fundamental outlook? the economy seems to be improving, the federal reserve is not going away. we just had colombia lower interest rates. lower interest rates is taking place all over the world. >> as liz ann mentioned, the risk on/risk off trade. markets don't work in vs upside and downside. i think most investors want things to happen right away. and this is a market that is entering for lack of a better way to put it, a goldilocks consistent and steady gdp growth. earnings growth. and that's a great environment for stox. now, the key thing is this whole notion with respect to when investors will be selling bond funds into equity funds.
let's not get too excited. we had strong inflows in january of 2010 but that was after a double digit advance in 2009. some could be asset allocation. needs to see all of this develop over a longer period of time. not just because stocks were up last year. >> are they going to be pushed, though, by the fact that you have rates going -- i mean 10-year yield is at 2%. the investors are already being pushed to find something somewhere. >> here's the trigger. when liz ann's clients at schwab open up and see a negative sign to their bond fund that they purchased in 2012, that will be the impetus. when they see and feel that they're losing money in the -- >> that it hasn't worked. >> they're losing money. they weren't supposed to lose money. that was supposed to be their safety net. when they feel that pain, that's when you'll see a more concerted effort. >> is that the catalyst you will
see to come back. what's the catalyst that could create a pullback? >> the catalyst to create a pullback is there's fundamental and positive complacency right now. the market has kind of climbed higher. people are positioned accordingly. we are 1575 this year. we're bullish longer term. clients chasing the market instead of investing in the market. >> i agree. and my view has been it would be a question of pull. so a push out of the bond market or bond funds. already investors will how low yields are are marking a return. it's the capital loss that i think is a potential risk. at the same time you get the equity market maybe taking out the all-time highs. and i think that -- you know, individual investors are maybe getting past the muscle memory of the pain of loss. and that's the -- to some
degree -- unfortunate thing that 1465 on the s&p is going to be an exciting moment when we know four years ago would have been a slightly better entry point for many of those investors. >> is washington still capable of getting in the way of this? i mean, they've extended the issue at hand right now. >> right. >> that being the debt ceiling. >> the debt ceiling is a big issue. the fiscal cliff was a big issue on the tax side. we've extended the debt ceiling to may. that really could be july. i don't know that they represent the risks that a lot of people thought was represented in august 2011 heading into it. we realize hindsight, yields did not spike dramatically. we didn't get a massive number of investors whether it was institutions, pension funds that were forced out of treasuries. because of that aaa rating gone. i think we learned some lessons.
but i still think unfortunately washington and the ranker and the political system remains one of them. >> it sounds you're not as worried about washington. >> we're sadly becoming immune to their antics. >> we'll leave it there. good to see you. thank you so much. about ten minutes to go before we close it up on monday on wall street here. dow jones industrial average still hanging in just below 13,900. well, it has been the feud that continues to be the buzz on wall street. >> and in 2003 i get a call from this ackman guy. he's like the cry baby in the schoolyard. >> carl icahn does not have a good reputation for being a hand shake guy. >> the latest on the icahn and ackman showdown which was brought to you by scott. that was an unbelievable moment. >> thanks. and sales of high end homes surging in december with sellers
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welcome back. people still cannot stop talking about the blow-by-blow showdown friday here on cnbc between wall street tie tans bill ackman and carl icahn. >> if you missed it, this is how it went down. >> i appreciate you call me a great investorer. i thank you for that. unfortunately i can't say the same for you. >> i was concern ld about dealing with carl icahn. he does not have a good reputation for being a hand shake guy. carl, i have no interest -- you think i want to invest with you? >> i wouldn't invest with you if you were the last man on earth. >> unbelievable. my question is why would these two guys go on television and fight with one another like that? kudos to you to get them on.
i was watching it in davos thinking what is going on. why have this public fight? it's bizarre. >> what's amazing -- it was amazing to be here and do it and have the floor and all of the traders on the floor in the background. what's most incredible i think b is this festering animosity between these two guys over the last decade. back from when ackman was just a young hedge fund guy was simmering for so long. it's this most recent fight over herbalife that brings it to the surface. then it explodes on live tv. >> they had had a fight before. icahn owed him money, right? >> they had a fight from a decade ago over ackman's former firm and a deal that they did and it went to court several times. ackman ended up coming out ahead on that one. so it simmered for a long time. then most recently when bill
ackman announced this short acquisition against herbalife, carl icahn had an issue it was done. the market has speculated that in fact icahn was on the other side of that trade. that he took a long position. which by the way i tried to get him to talk about, but he would not say in fact if he was long herbalife. it's amazing. this battle going back a decade just explodes on live television because of this argument over a stock. >> but it's obviously gotten personal. i mean, they were taking hits on one another. you're not a good investor. you're not a truthful guy. i mean, this is personal. >> it's a lot about egos too. you know? these guys, they have a lot of money. they have big egos. and you saw first hand sort of how all of that clashed. money, power, ego live on cnbc. >> amazing. up next, we're back with the
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the new york stock exchange. maria here and ben. it's time for the closing countdown. we had this right streak, right? six in a row for the dow, we're trying for seven. it's a dog fight until the last. >> seven points lower. this market wants to go higher clearly. >> you've been on that. we were sitting next to each other a few weeks ago and you have been on the fact this has the feel it wants to go higher despite any negative news out there. >> what are you seeing at the end of the day here? >> i don't disagree it wants to go higher. but i think we're going lower before we get there. every indication i'm looking at. starting to peter out. the trim indications are negative. so i think it'll be good for the market to see a pullback in my opinion before we go higher. >> you guys are all watching people fight on television. come on. >> we also have catalysts on the horizon. the italian elections, debt coming due in spai