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tv   Piers Morgan Tonight  CNN  August 9, 2011 9:00pm-10:00pm PDT

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to the strength of the private sector, understanding that as a source of prosperity, and having policies favorable to it. we think that our governor will be very competitive on the world scene, in that critical area, getting the government under control so the private sector can grow and command and you can get some jobs. do democrats work perry? the republican field now? >> i think so. texas is a crummy job performance. low paying jobs. that's the future that rick perry wants. he's got a lot of talent. not a lot of brains, but a lot of talent. >> all right. we'll keep track of the tea party too. we'll bring you back with more time in the future. that's all for us tonight. hope to see you back here tomorrow night. tonight, roaring back, stocks soar 400 points. are we out of the woods? i'll ask the experts what it means for you and your money. also what bonnie frank said is
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really to blame for america's downgrade. t. boone pickens, where america goes from here. how bad is all of this for president obama. started to hear the white house in the kennedy years. dan rather. ever seen washington or wall street like this? and anarchy in the uk, what's behind the days and nights of rage in london and other uk cities. where will it end? this is "piers morgan tonight." good evening on a busy news day around the world, thousands of police on the streets of london and other uk cities are getting the upper hand on the fourth night of appalling violence there. we'll have a report on the scene in a few minutes. mean while, there are wild gyrationings ending with the dow up nearly 4%. what it all means for your money is diane swank, and personal finance expert carmen wong
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ulrich. let me start with you diane. crazy day in the market. are we heading for another day of the dow falling. then the rally in the end ends up 400 points up. what do you make of it all? >> really the financial markets were having a hard time figuring out what the fed said in their statement. there was a lot of information to digest. but to distill it down, the financial markets found out that ben bernanke with a bit of resistance from his colleagues was going to stand by the statement the g-7 had on sunday which was do anything it could to shore up this economy and provide liquidity in the face of what's happened. the economy is much weaker than they once thought it was. the debt ceiling crisis certainly dealt a blow to the u.s. economy then a downgrade by s&p. all of that with revisions to gdp showing the american economy stalled out. the u.s. said we're not going to
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let that happen. then financial markets after reading through everything believed the fed. >> i was watching this all thing unfold live. the immediate reaction was negative. what you're saying is they waited to really grasp exactly what ben bernanke was saying and realized it may not be bad news. >> exactly. they certainly said -- i think there was a bit of a shock of how much the fed acknowledged that the economy was weak by saying in an unprecedented statement they could keep interest rated on their zero target rate until mid-2013. that just is not done by the federal reserve, a date. and there were members who decented on that. i think we're fatigued from the debate in washington. some weren't sure does this mean more indecision. but clearly bernanke has a good record of corralling the cats in his own corral. he gets them to go where he wants them to go. i think that's important to the
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history. and also, ben bernanke said we could do things with our sheet. we're not done. when all was said and done and financial markets finally dig t digested this massive amount of news by the fed, they said you know what? maybe that means we won't have a double dip recession now. we might not stall out. we'll still sputter along. that's the bad news and also the good news. we're not going to stall out. >> gallagher, do you agree with this? are we avoiding here? is ben bernanke the hero of the hour? >> well, it's interesting. what's as interesting as what bernanke did say today was what he didn't say. or what the committee said. which is the fed was widely expected or hoped by a large portion of the market it would do another round of massive bond buying and intervention. its done twice already. that's with the salvation from above was hoping for. that didn't happen. on the other hand, the fed
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basically came out with as diane said a very clear statement. for the first time put a target date on how long it's going to keep interest rates toward zero. i think that led to a kind of collective sigh of relief. we know we can expect rates for the foreseeable future. the other thing is the fact the fed didn't do the massive intervention led people to think, okay. maybe it's not that bad. that's sort of a last -- you know, the last thing that they could have done. and bernanke said in the past wages have to be falling fast and prices have to be falling significant for the fed to do that. and it didn't. so maybe things could be worse. i think the market took that as a sigh of relief. >> carmen wong ulrich, it's been a roller coaster few weeks now. where is the overview here? where is the american economy here? cut through the political speak here.
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where do you think we actually are? >> for those of us who have been saying be calm and carry on through all of this, we feel a little bit of i told you so today. markets do what markets do which is go up and down. for regular consumers and folks who invest in 401(k)s, this is not the time to panic. but there is a crisis of confidence here. the american consumer is not where they should be or want to be right now. they've taken all of this mess really to heart. and they're saying we are not confident that this economy is going to get better anytime soon. that's very dangerous. consumer spending is 70% of this american economy. and consumer confidence and spending do a dance together. when one dips, the other goes down. which means less growth in the economy. corporations are not going to be hiring. it means job numbers are not going to improve. until those numbers improve, the american people will not feel confident in this economy. >> i want to put all three of
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you on the spot here and ask you where should the average american put their money now? i'm going to start with you, diane. only less than ten words. where should an american put their money right now? >> well, i'm not an adviser. i still bet long on the u.s. economy and u.s. equities. i'm still along the stock market. we'll see these opportunities in the stock market to do a double dip -- when they dip, they do allow us to double down. that wasn't ten words. >> you would buy which kind of stocks? you've used way past your limit, but what kind of stocks quickly? >> i'm still variablish on exports and multinationals, manufacturers in that sector. >> okay. leigh gallagher, can we try the ten word rule with you? >> i'll try. i'm an editor. it might work. the worst thing you want to do is to pull out because then you have to be right twice. you have to be right when you
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pull it out and right when you put your money back in. so i think equities are still, you know, a long-term safe bet. you have to think for the long-term though. >> and carmen, i would be tempted to stuff it in a bag under my mattress at the moment. are you going that way? is gold an option? are you sticking to treasury bonds? >> when folks talk about mattresses is when there's a bargain sale going on and you should be buying more. in my words, is consider time frame, know where your money is, and calm your stomach. >> i think you actually did that in under ten words. that was good. very impressive. >> i'm a former editor too. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. representative barney frank says it's time for president obama to face up to liberals over budget cuts. and barney frank joins me now. thank you for joining me. what did you make of the fed's
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statement today? >> i think it was appropriate. i think mr. bernanke and his colleagues have been doing the right thing. offsetting some of the negative tendencies. it's interesting that ben bernanke warned congress not to do too much cutting in the short-term the last time he testified. he said we have a longer term deficit problem. you've got to deal with that. but in the short-term, these cuts you're talking about are head winds against the economy. so the thing now is he's doing everything he can. but that we need to do something now on the fiscal front. i think it is now overwhelming. piers, i'm going to borrow from your country's history. in the late 40s, the prime minister called truman saying i'm facing a terrible economic crisis. i can't continue the efforts to maintain british remnants of empire. if you want to do it, fine. the time has come for us to recognize the terrible crisis here in the economy and withdraw from iraq, withdraw from
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afghanistan, tell our good friends in europe that the cold war is long since over, they are well able to defend themselves. it is time for us to substantially reduce our worldwide military commitment. put some of that into deficit reduction but spend some immediately. recover employment they lost. get construction done. the notion that we would be in this kind of a situation and at the same time the president is talking about staying in iraq longer than george bush was frankly appalls me. and i think the time has come, people say you got to get real and understand some constraints. well, the kbigest single area where we could do that is to cut i believe $200 billion a year on our expenditures. but for our worldwide policemen. almost all of our allies spent far less of a percentage of their product than we do on the military. the time has come for us to recognize that we can't afford to do that. and i believe we'll suffer no loss in security.
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>> it's an interesting point. the trouble being the world's policeman as america has been for the last 50 or 60 years is that it can be a lonely place. and you end up as america has found itself now getting hardly any credit from anybody. if the expenditure is so vast, there is a good argument to say you know what? as the chinese do for example, look after number one here and bring it back to america. >> south korea needs some help against the nuclear armed lunatic. israel is in a difficult situation. but western europe, when harry truman went into western europe in 1949, the countries there were poor. they were devastated by world war ii. they faced stalin. it was a good thing to go in. but we are still protecting western europe from i don't know what and they are well able to do it themselves. we're building, i guess because of cold war hangovers, a missile
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defense system in poland and in the czech republic that nobody needs. and as you said, you wind up worse off politically. i am not talking about america being anything less than the strongest nation in the world. but the world doesn't need a policeman as much as we do. and secondly it's a hard thing to do. let's begin with iraq and afghanistan. we have accomplished whatever purpose we could have had originally with osama bin laden. we never should have been in iraq. and by the way, the pentagon budget is about $700 billion a year. medicare which people want to try to blame unfairly for the crisis costs 580 billion a year. so we can with no loss in our own security scale back. and you cannot say everyone in america got to recognize constraints and act we can spend whatever we want wherever we want all over the world. >> the devil's advocate position is if you look at afghanistan, the reason al qaeda was able to
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ferment its operation there was precisely because nobody was there keeping an eye on it. the counterargument to what you're saying is there are lots of areas in the world that are unstable where if america reduced any presence, you could see that kind of situation recuring. >> exactly. >> but that would provide an attack to american national security in the homeland potentially. >> except that if you -- if we shut it down in afghanistan, they're in yemen. if they're shut down there they're in sudan. we can't plug every rat hole in the world. now, we did do a significant amount against al qaeda. remember in afghanistan, a major battle now is with the taliban. george bush became president, the taliban was running afghanistan. they were destroying buddhist statues. they were outrageous. but america can't be the one that solves everything in the world. if we were we would shoot
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mugabe. we have killed osama bin laden. we can protect ourselves back home and if you look at the 120 billion we're spending in afghanistan plus the billions we are wasting on the pakistanis, a very small percent we use at home than in afghanistan. >> thank you very much. >> thank you, piers. the wild gyrations in the market are big here. china may be on america's side in all this. james, interesting position you're taking. because if you listen to someone like donald trump, he foams at the mouth at the mere mention of the word china. he believes they're an enemy to the american national interest. why do you believe they may be a friend? >> i think that i was talking about the media crisis -- financial crisis going on now that despite all the bombast
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from the chinese side about how the americans need to pull up socks and behave better. fundamentally their interests are the same as ours at the moment. the two big threats in the chinese economy is they won't sell things to an american market. so that would hurt them. and there are extensive holdings of u.s. dollars being at risk. for the time being with, their interests are avoiding recession. have a return to the u.s. economy and u.s. financial markets. >> secretary geithner spoke to vice premier wang today. how would you imagine that went? >> the editorials in the chinese state papers the last couple of days have been very strong on the tut tuting and finger pointing of the u.s. for all the bad behavior. but i imagine they've got past that. i imagine the main concern on the chinese side would be what the u.s. is planning to do.
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what weapons were still in the financial arsenal to try to calm things down and to avoid the onset of another recession. the thing the chinese fear most now is the same thing the obama administration and most americans fear which is another plunge back into greater unemployment and slowing economic activity. that's the main threat to them as well. >> is it healthy or unhealthy that china holds so much of american debt right now? >> it's a compared to what question. i think fundamentally it's unhealthy for both economies. they've been distorted in their relationship with each other to the degree they have been for the last 15 years at least, china has depended on the u.s. market to provide demand for their own factories. at the same way americans have depending these last ten years on having low cost goods from chinese suppliers. and the chinese surplus being
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lent here to keep our tax rates down and mortgage rates down. in the long run, that's not wholesome for either country. we're going through the uncomfortable on both sides process of trying to readdress the balance. less reliance on borrowing here. less reliance on overexporting there. >> i've worked in america and china and it seems to me the fundamental business practice difference is in bureaucracy. things in china get done quickly without the mountain of red tape that everything in america now seems consumered by. is it time for america incorporated to revisit this whole area, do you think? >> well, there are aspects of china's performance which are more and less impressive when you're there. there certainly are things whether it's the beijing olympics or the high speed rail project which is now a double edged situation, the chinese can get done with great speed if they want. but i think there's tragedies in the high speed rail project.
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this fatal crash and the evidence of corruption suggests that the chinese approach has its problems too. there's a lot of uncoordination at the regional level. and there's been this huge overhang of these white elephant projects that have kept demand upgoing in the short run. but you go to these remote cities and there are giant malls and airports with nobody in them. so i think the chinese approach has its advantages but it can be romanticized out of our frustration with the bureaucracy in the u.s. >> thank you very much. >> my pleasure. thank you. coming up, london calling 16,000 police on the streets. can they restore order? have i got a surprise for you! a mouthwatering combination of ingredients... i know you're gonna love. [ barks ] yes, it's new beneful healthy fiesta. made with wholesome grains, real chicken, even accents of tomato and avocado.
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i can't believe this is happening. >> you know, i'm going to give out some extreme views, but i think they should bring the army down. show these people what really guns and bullets are all about. this has got nothing to do with anything that happened last week. this is just opportunists breaking into shops and taking what they can. they're doing what they do best and that's stealing. >> 16,000 police on the streets of london tonight. more than twice as many as last night. will it be enough to stop the looting and mayhem there and other british cities? dan rivers is there for us now. what's the latest from london tonight? >> reporter: the police are all over this area of east london, piers. they've all pulled off this way.
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i don't know if there's another incident happening down there. but they have flooded this area of canningtown. 16,000 across the city. from what we've been seeing this vignette of disturbances, this evening there has been the slightest inclination of trouble, they have come down like a ton of bricks. any back chat from the kids here and immediately they're taken into the van. so there's a lot of stop and search going on as well. it is completely different to the terrible scenes last night 24 hours ago in london when there were buildings burning out of control. we really felt very threatened as things got really very volatile, indeed. >> the catalyst for this was the shooting of a young black man in north london. interestingly today, the police withdrew their initial claim that he had opened fire on them.
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although their early findings find this guy did have a loaded firearm when he was shot. what is your understanding where we are with that investigation? >> reporter: well, we haven't got the complete picture from the ipcc. what we know is this guy mark dougen supposedly had a firearm on him. that it wasn't discharged. that the police fired two shots. that he was hit in the chest and the arm. beyond that, we don't really have a particularly clear picture at all. so, you know, that was obviously the spark to all this. but this snowballed way beyond that particular incident to be much, much bigger. getting reports right now of disturbances in manchester, birmingham, bristol was effected yesterday. it became something much bigger and not something that was necessarily racial oriented either. there are people who have gotten
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connected with this not from one particular city. and even quite a wide range of ages as well, in fact. >> it's a very interesting thing to observe from afar. having been in britain, it's obviously a multicultural place. as i've seen these groups of gangs, a lot of them -- it's not a race thing at all. what do you think is driving this? there's a lot of anger of law-abiding people saying these are a bunch of yobs trying to create mayhem. is there something deeper? is there a social malaise that has kids feeling they have no hope of education or a job and this is the tinderbox being lit to a deeper problem? >> reporter: i think that's fair. firstly, yes there's been an amount of opportunistic crimes. people going if they're doing
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this here we can do it as well. and people here saying if they can do it over in peckam we can do it as well. a lot of people saying the police have their hands tied here. they can't do anything. people realize that and they take the opportunity to help themselves to a tv from a local store. but underneath all that is the issue of a whole generation of people who feel that there are no jobs. there are no opportunitieopport. they feel they've been failed by the school system and society at large with the lack of jobs and so on. they feel this is their opportunity to let off steam. >> dan rivers, thank you very much. coming up, market turmoil battles with congress. it's a bad time to be president of the united states. i'll ask two men who know the white house more than most. how is president obama doing? the safety of onstar is now available for your car.
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president obama in a solemn moment at the air force base today when the troops were returned from afghanistan. now two men who have seen the white house up close. dan rather. also joining me presidential historian douglas brinkley. dan rather let me start with you. it's a dismal time for americans and america right now. put it in historical context from all that you reported on over the years. how bad is it do you think right now? >> well, clearly the news is grim on a lot of fronts. the economy being first and foremost. i would say within that, jobs. but you know? i'm an optimist by experience
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and by nature and by covering america over -- well over half a century. this country has tremendous resilience. people are angry. they don't feel they're being particularly well led by republicans or democrats. we learned through valley forge to the civil war, america bounces back. i wrote something on facebook and twitter today along the lines of maybe the world has overestimated the united states for its military and economic power ever since the end of world war ii. it may not be a bad thing now the world is beginning to underestimate us. this country will be back. it'll be back strong. but people are absolutely angry. if you saw the poll today, i've never seen a poll like this. not that i'm a great believer in polls. but 59% of those polled indicated they were dissatisfied with the republican party. that's an exceptionally high
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number. also 49% of them said they were dissatisfied with their local congressman. that hasn't happened before in my lifetime. >> doug brinkley, i guess the thing everyone is waiting for is a great master plan from the president. if you think back to previous crises facing america, truman had the marshal plan, jfk took america to the moon. what is the obama master plan? do you see a sign of what it could be that will rejuvenate america and americans? >> if i were going to dub this era something, i'd call it generation downsize. companies are downsizing. universities are downsizing. and president obama happens to be in the white house when he has to downsize. it's hard to get people enthralled with cuts. young people aren't going to be coming in buses to the obama library someday to see the pen where he slashed some government programs. so the bigger question is what
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does obama stand for? and most people when they elected him thought he was part of a continuum of progressivism. yes we can is the idea we are going to do great things in the future. he's kind of having a summer of malaise right now. i believe the president has to turn it around with as dan said jobs this fall. he's going to have to get that unemployment unacceptable for a president. he's positioned himself fairly well at saying vote for me because behind me are crazies. but that's hardly a position you want to be on running. you want to be optimistic and for something. i think he's going to have to present a big jobs plan this fall to show that he's really taking this unemployment issue seriously. >> and in terms of jobs, everyone agrees it needs to be done. what would you say doug brinkley should be at the basis of such
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plan? how do you get americans back to work? >> i think you're going to have to put a jobs plan and fight congress on it in which we deal with what some people would call the smart grid or green grid. you see pieces in the obama administration. can you link seattle to los angeles with a new train system and put people to work? do we now close bases in say germany. we've won the cold war. do we need nato american bases in germany and perhaps build bases for security here at home in california for example. can we take blm lands and do wind farms, new solar farms on government property. but this all has to come from the president. he has to believe this. and right now the -- he has kept his base at bay. but there is some deflation of the base going on right now. and without this sort of
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visionary, you know, great american future rollout of jobs, his presidency could be in peril. >> when we come back, i want to talk to you both about the president's chances of being re-elected next year. we'll never stop sharing our memories, or getting lost in a good book. we'll always cook dinner, and cheer for our favorite team. we'll still go to meetings, make home movies, and learn new things. but how we do all this, will never be the same. in servicing clients that serve our country. my name is marjorie reyes. i'm a chief warrant officer. i am very grateful and appreciative
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back now. my guests dan rather and douglas brinkley. dan, obviously big year next year, presidential year. what are obama's chances right now do you think? >> i would say chances right now are 50/50 at best trim that line down. what you and i clearly at this moment, mitt romney is the lead and most likely candidate, though i would not underestimate michelle bachmann think no way, i'm not in that category. so much depends on who the republicans put up. i come back to it. whether the unemployment line or not. he has to convince the american people he understands it's not a deficit issue here.
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not a ceiling on the debt. it's jobs. he's thinking about jobs, jobs, jobs, he's got a chance to be re-elected. >> doug brinkley, do you agree 50/50 at best for the president to be re-elected. >> 50/50. i would go a little different than dan. i think he's got better odds than that. i think rick perry is the heavyweight for the republican party right now. but the president is not running against romney or perry. he' going to be running against the economy. and it all matters next year at this time if we reconvened, are we better off than we were at this point? is unemployment down to eight point, not nine point? but the president has an advantage to the mountdown this summer that it happened now, not
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next summer. it gives him a year to show he's doing things with the economy. we're talking about winding down the wars in afghanistan and iraq. what can he do as president with china? can we get some of our debt with china forgiven if we -- if they accept inflated dollars. the democrats are unified and the republicans have a split. it's not hard to see with this new commission getting, you know, a tea party person like tancredo. getting a third party that would destroy the republican party. you don't have a breakaway. you don't have what jimmy carter faced in 1980, ted kennedy. if he can keep his base together, which i believe he will, i think his chances for re-election look good.
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>> it's a decade on from the terrible day. it's been dramatically affected by the event osf that day. do you think america ten years on is a better or worse place? >> it's ten years. i think we're better off in that we understand now in the shadow of 9/11 still in the shadow of 9/11 that we're not invulnerable. i think we are better off than we were before. more realistic if you want to call it that pragmatic, foreign policy, military policy, almost all other policies. in terms of the economy, we're
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not as well as we were. wars in afghanistan and iraq being obvious ones. it's mixed. but i will say that we're different today, a lot different than we were in -- on september 11. that hawthorne in the early stages of our country wrote, he said, you know, a time passes over us, flies over us. but the shadows remain. for the president in the foreseeable future, we live in the shadow of what happens that clear and terrible day. >> we do. dan rather, doug brinkley. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. coming up, legendary texas oil man t. boone pickens. what would he do to keep america great? [ smooches ]
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t. boone pickens made his fortune in the oil business. i don't think anyone would consider him unfred friendly to drilling was right when he said
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this is one emergency we can't drill our way out of. >> president obama giving a shoutout to my guest in march. t. boone pickens says the man is thankful for the tea party and says the trouble in washington is a lack of leadership. boone pickens joins me now. you like being called j.r. yuing through or not. but needs a little bit of j.r. action. >> we need action. no question. if i was asked my opinion by the white house i would say get on your own resources. we have resources in america. and every day, we're spending a million, 200 million for foreign oil. totally unnecessary. getting on their own resources. get off of foreign oil, creates a tremendous amount of jobs. it would be good. >> but you have an interest in that. you have a company that's the
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alternative to oil, many would say. do you feel slightly compromised when you stand up for something that would help your business like that? >> when you say i'm in the business. i'm a geologist. i've been in the business since i got out of school in 1951, i've been in the oil and gas business. but the business i'm in is clean energy fuels and it does better with a low price for natural gas. not a high price. i'm not a natural gas producer but i have little natural gas. i do -- i'm in the stockholder in clean energy fuels. >> you build a billion dollar business by having big ideas and taking big decisions. if you look at america incorporated as a business, what are the big decisions you think need to be taken -- put aside energy for the moment. how should president obama get this great country back being
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great again? >> i was disappointed in congress when they struggled to make a decision. they had been told by s&p that $4 trillion, going to take a $4 trillion cut in spending. they came one a questionable $1 trillion. i don't think anybody should be surprised that the s&p gave them full notice of what they were going to do. that is absolutely necessary. and so here we are. they came up with a trillion dollar cut in spending, left for vacation, which i thought was unusual. i would have hung around to see what the results were going to be, and how the market interpreted that. and the market didn't like it, now you're down 500 points in two days on the market and
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they're on vacation. i don't know, i think that -- what would i do? well, the first thing, you say, well, let's get some jobs out of this. i'm not -- the jobs are not created by the government, the jobs are created by industries in america. and so you need to pull away some of the regulations on them, let them get to work. for instance, in the gulf of mexico, get back to drilling in the gulf of mexico. and there's just so many things we could do, but put it on the private sector, the government doesn't need to develop jobs. those jobs are not our best jobs anyway. >> we're going to take a break, when we come back, we'll talk to you about china. whether you see it as america's friend orr foe. i'm good about washing my face.
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[ male ] using clean american fuel is just a pipe dream. ♪ [ female announcer ] we're rolling away misperceptions about energy independence. did you know that today about a quarter of all new transit buses use clean, american natural gas? we have more natural gas than saudi arabia has oil. so how come we're not using it even more? start a conversation about using more natural gas vehicles in your community. [ indistinct conversations ] [ hissing ] agents, what did we learn here today? that lint balls are extremely flammable!
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my guest t. boone pickens. what do you make of china? donald trump says he's the enemy. other guests are saying they're potential friends. where do you sit? >> i think they're a competitor.
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enemy? i don't think so. but, you know, we have the most developed military any place in the world. we have 12 aircraft carriers, there's not another aircraft carrier in the world, but the chinese are building a state of the art aircraft carrier. what am i saying? i think that we -- we're not -- we don't look like -- we don't have the same structure as any other country. and i don't understand, we could get our people out of the mideast. i don't like all of our military in europe, for instance. 50,000 people. i think we come home and start to look at our overall picture more clearly and decide how we're going to spend our money.
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because we have got to cut down on the $14 trillion in debt. now, that is not going to work, and we've had an early warning from the s&p on that. and i think everybody understands we have to cut spending. here the most subsidized resource in america is foreign oil. and so we don't have to do that, because we have resources in america to use. we have plenty of oil, we have plenty of natural gas. we can go for the real -- more expensive, but we need to start to get into the development of wind and solar. not a large part of our spending, but we should start to move in the direction of those renewable fuels. there's so much we could do here and bring our people back home. i really, the afghan war just breaks my heart to see people killed there every day.
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and i do not understand what we're going to get out of that war. i know we don't ever win. i don't think we ever win. and so why are we there? why do we get 30 people killed over the weekend? i just don't like it. >> finally, who do you have in your eye to be the republican candidate that may take on president obama in the election next year? >> i don't know. i mean, our governor from texas, rick perry is going to announce in the next few days. and -- but, you know, i know all those people and friends with all of them, but i -- you know, you'd have to say, i don't know michele bachmann. i don't know her. i know sarah palin, i know jon huntsman. i know all those men and women, they'll come up with somebody. i think from my standpoint, the reading i do, and all. it's probably going to come down