tv CNN Tonight CNN March 11, 2015 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
>> we'll see you. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com this is "dr. nn tonight" and i'm don lemon. some things never die like racism. ♪ there's never going to be a -- the at sae ♪ >> if anything you say at college campus get you kicked off? and what about the free speech for the kkk and they are alive and well and recruiting in selma and ferguson and e beyond. and we will talk to one of the leaders of the klan who says
that he is upset that anybody was punished for that chant. >> and robin thicke and pharrell and did they rip off marvin gaye? tonight, i will talk to marvin gaye's wife, and we will talk about that. >> now i want to talk about the latest from ferguson missouri and everybody knew it was coming and today, the police chief thomas jackson announced he is residing. today, sara sidner is joining us us, and we spent a lot of time in ferguson. and he sent me this statement this is the final piece that i hope that ferguson can e emerge to be the best small town it can be. it is going to be tough work, and do you believe this is the best step that be done to restore the faith in ferguson?
>> yes, and no. those protesting have been out, and this is the first thing they wanted to ask for, and they wanted punishment toward officer darren wilson who have to be e saying that the d.o.j. said no charges, and no civil rights or criminal charges, and that is the way the law is and that is the way it is, because two groups have said that he is exonerated, but the police chief admits himself that mistakes were made after the shooting of michael brown, and perhaps before if you look at the doj report and what it found when it looked at the department and how it was treating people of color, and the ticketing that it was doing. >> and will this appease people? you have been there for what four months? that you have been there? >> well, it are will ap a pease people for about five minute, because i have been talking to those constantly out there protest, and the reverends out there, and the other group, and the young people out there, and what they have said is that this is not enough. it is too little too late, and
we we want more resignations, and we a want this department dissolved. dissolved. >> yes, and listen, both of vus interviewed the chief, and this is my interview in august and then we will play part of yours. >> reporter: people are calling for you to lose your job and for you to be fired. >> yes, i understand that the. yes. >> reporter: what do you say? >> i won't go anywhere. i will stay and see it through. >> reporter: this is back in august. and then in thursday or friday of last week this is what you had. >> reporter: are you planning on resigning? >> i will lett you know. >> reporter: are you thinking about it? >> i have told you that. >> so it is basically saying the same thing, he planned on staying, and then i'll get back to you. >> yes, and we knew from a previous interview that i did in the early to late september where he said, because i was there for many months, where he said, you know, i have considered resigning, i have considered that. but i am taking it day-to-day and then he said, no, i will
stay put and take care of this. i will be fair, because there are people in the community who did not want to have him resign or have this happen and they want to keep the police department in tact, and there are people, and i don't want people to the believe that the entire town are against the police department, because there are those who are frustrated with it mostly african-american and there are those caucasian who are frus frustrated, but there are people who don't want it to be gone. >> and when you meet him in person, he is an affable guy and nice person, and when you look at the report, how do you meld the two? >> well people could be very nice but ultimately if the job they are doing is having a big detrimental effect on the citizens they are supposed to be serving, then that is a huge problem. you can be nice in person all day long, but if you are giving the people trouble trying to get money and revenue, and that is how you rare trying to feed the
base -- >> the coffers and we have to talk about that, because it happens in a lot of cities with the ticketing. >> and get the tickets up. >> you see it in the holidays and the ticketing up, and maybe it is something to explore all nationwide and who would want that job though? in ferguson? >> well someone is go ging to want it because they will feel they can go in to make a difference. >> yes, thank you, sara sidner. >> and now the coverage switches over to the racist chant. and miguel marquez over there live for us, and yesterday admitting that the song and the vile lyrics has been chanted for year and what are you hear ging about that? >> well, it is a small disclaimer to that, because it is an alumni association that looked into that at the local chapter here at o.u. and especially this the s.a.e. chapter here, and that a cancer had take een over that fra tern
fraternity, and they had not stopped it. they had asked for forgiveness and asked the people to take a step back, and realized that they understand the seriousness of it and that they understand the substance the of the basis of that chant, but they say that over the last four years what they are calling a horrible cancer was in this fra ternternity house. it is now clearly excised as the fraternity has been completely shutdown. >> and miguel, we see the two the young men leading this chant, but there's a group full of people a busload of people and are there any other students who will be punished in connection with all of this? >> it is very likely that we are going to be seeing more disciplinary action and perhaps more expulsion and the university of oklahoma saying that the investigation is ongoing, and that it will continue to look into it. one wrinkle in all of this is that the friday begins the spring break here, so it may be delayed a week while all of that
holiday occurs, and then they will pick up the investigation as soon as the students return and questioning them, and trying to figure out who had what role on that bus, don. >> in norman oklahoma, thank you, miguel marquez. >> we are joined by a founding member of the that chapter of the sigma epsilon alpha chapter. and so now they say it is a horrible cancer that entered into the sae chapter four years ago and it was not stopped. d did you know about this horrible cancer of a chant? >> absolutely not. when i saw the video sunday, no my heart sank, because it had never been a part of the institution or the culture. the chant nor that type of behavior and those types of viewpoints were never a part of our house while i was in. >> and good to know that clap your hands was written in 1971
and then all of the sudden two to three years ago that this entered. do you know how it e entered and by whom and why it was not stoppeden? >> i don't know. i am in contact with the variousle alumni who are part of the investigation. i am e hearing that the they are trying to narrow down the source of that chant. >> and the reason i ask is that because in 1971 and this is done on the "if you are happy and you know it clap your hands" but if it were entered a few years ago, it would be a more modern song but from 1971 this goes back a long time and not just from 2010 or '11 or '12. >> well, a lot of the fraternity songs, and not just sae, but the greek system is, the lyrics may be changed, and that they are adapted for the existing puns so i don't know if that is
something that is really impactful. >> okay. >> but the tune i was i was more shocked by the verbiage of it. >> the two students expelled does the punishment fit the crime is the? >> well, for 18 or 19le-year-old children or adults they they made a mistake. i am not going to excuse their mistake. it is not really for me to comment on whether the punishment is justified or too severe i don't know but i do trust in the university's ability to make that decision based on their investigation so i do hope that these fellows at such a prime time in their life and just getting their life started that they will overcome this and move forward and that they are not treated too
severely as long as they accept the punishment, and try to change their ways and outlooks and the behavior. >> and well, they would have to come to a harsh realization of what they have doenne to understand what they have done. >> yes. >> and i want to go through this, because it is not the first time and reel it off a couple of times, because it is not the first time that sae has been caught up in this, because clemson university threw a par tu ti where the members dressed as gang members, and in st. louis, that chapter was suspended for pledges who sang racial slurs to black student, and sae in 2007 suspended in memphis over the harassment of a member who had a black girlfriend. so i would ask you, does it have a race problem, but it is obvious that it does have a race problem. so what is going on? why so much so many racial issues when it comes to the sae? >> again, i don't know, because
i have been a part of the university or the fraternity since 1992 and i never experienced that the type of racial hatred or ugliness. i originally pledged at boston university which is a extremely diverse chapter and i came back to the university of oklahoma and was a founding member of the chapter, and going through the restructuringing and we built a house based on diversity and personal responsibility. so if you look at the greek system every house has its own culture at every university even within the fraternities and the national the organization, and so those universities ta you are listing have an ugly culture that they were using were used while represent inging the fraternity, and that is deplorable. the chapter that we started at the university of oklahoma in 1993 and chartered in 19 995 never had that culture. >> and it does now, and here is
what you have said. and i have got, and you said that racism and hayesing and these all seem to be both systemic, and then localize and then the culture needs to be change and overhauled come comprehensively and not swept under the rug. the greek system as a whole, you believe it needs to be address ded as a whole? >> well, it needs to look at how it exists in with whatever institution, but wherever it exists it needs to be eradicated eradicated. >> thank you for your time. >> thank you, don. >> and so did the punishment fit the crime or is there more to this? and now, let's tell you more about the father who was caught on camera taking a a toddler, and wait until you hear the end of the story.
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university ethics and also a member of university board. and so was it justified or legal. here is the chant unsensecensored. >> >>. ♪ there is never going to be a nigger at sae ♪ ♪ if there sis he'll be hanging by a tree ♪ >> so this is a exclusionary and racist chant that has created a hostile environment for others. so sis this free speech protected by the constitution? >> yes, it is protected by the
konts tugs,-- constitution and regardless how it is people have the ability to express free speech regardless of how repugnant on a college campus. >> do you want to respond? >> well, i know what robert said, but i absolutely disagree you can engage in the vile and the negative speech ta you choose to, but not on the college campus. federal anti-discrimination laws make it very clear under title laws that you cannot create vile environment that is not condusive to learn ging environment. >> and section 6 of the title vi of the education act of 1994
when you have a hostile environment that constitutes a violation of free speech. >> well shgs, the department of education of civil rights in 2003 said that to violate the rules, which by the way it said that must comply with the first amendment what would be harassment or hostile learning environment must be going beyond the mere expression of words or thoughts or symbols that are offensive, and i'm the first person to tell you what the students are saying is horrendous and repulsive and if it is repulsing me, then i understand how other people feel. >> can they take the legal action against the university and the state? >> they could if they want to. >> and title vi does prohibit discrimination but what these students are doing is not rising to the level of volatile harassment. there is a "davis very sus
monroe county of education" and it is a tough standard and a chant on a single bus cannot rise to that level. >> reeva? >> well snoishgts a single chant on the bus, and we have heard african-americans at this college come forward to talk about the racial isolation they feel and the other discrimination on this campus. the president had to take action and the federal law is clear and i toteally disagree with what the other correspondents or the speakers to the night, but the law is very clear. students have a right to be -- >> no, the law is clear. >> and let her finish. >> and the law is clear. >> and the professor let mer finish. >> the students have a right to be in a climate on a college campus that does not cause racial animus, and it is not the chant, but the leadership of the students leading that chant. >> and professor? >> well, thaey are being suspended only for what they said on the bus. there is no evidence or
discussion that they committed any other discriminatory act, and they are being discriminated or expelled for the free speech. >> no, it is conduct. >> it does not just conclude the n-word but it incites the language you can hang by the tree -- >> well anothert example, don. >> and it does -- >> and reeva, let me hear from robert first. go ahead. >> and before you do that it does not incite violence, because there sis a specific standard for incitement, and it has to be immediate unlawful action and it can't be incitement to something that might happen in the future which is the most you could say about the chant. again, i feel like people are taking the offensiveness of this chant, and expanding it to somehow put on the people who are this this, who are performing this chant all of the problems and the racial problems that might be taking place at o.u. >> reeva is not buying it. >> it is not the offensive
language, but it is the comment. and if men were making sexist comment s in comments in the workplace, and that the employee would have an absolute obligation to rid that work environment of that hostile work environment and it is the same standard to be receiving funding under the title vi. >> and it is not the same standard. >> and it is of the student to be free of the hostile environment of that. and how are black students to be go g going to that university and to be subjected to that language and perform and receive an education? >> and here's the thing, they were subject ed toed to that language on the bus by these people. that is not the claim that people are making. president borren specifically said that it is for what they said on the bus, and that is not simply rising to that level. i understand -- >> he said it is for the lead leadership role and what happened on the bus. listen to this. >> and yes, not the chant. >> and reeva, according to rush limbaugh says that if kayne west
recorded the chant, it would be an instant hit. lis listen. >> if this had been a song by kim kardashian's husband and then they had sung this song at the grammy's, it had been a hit. can we agree with this, and i am telling you that this stuff gets the awards and the people who sing it are portrayed as american royalty in terms of the celebrity and you can't deny that? >> reeva, a point? >> they can sing that song at the grammy os or the sidewalks in the public, but if white students sing that song on a bus at the public university, title vi says that the president has the obligation to rid that campus of the racial hostility, and so those black students can be free to learn in the same way that the white students are. >> robert? >> you can't, cabin the first amendment and says that the first amendment says that it does not apply when it is white students saying something, and one of the things that unites us
as a country is that rule of law applies equally, and i understand that the frustration that people feel, but it does not mean that we get to -- >> it is not frustration, but it is the conduct. >> and the u.s. supreme court said that it is protected. >> and it is the language incidental to the cop duct, and the standard applied be by the courts is unprecedented. >> and the u.s. supreme court has already said twice when it comes to the public university campuses, they are not on play immune are from the first amendment, and they are not immune from free speech and you are trying to equate the free speech to kon dungconduct, and if they were to be equated with the ability to make decisions -- >> and they are encouraging the african-americans to be excluded from the fraternity. >> and now we have a zero
tolerance policy set unilateral ly from the university president, and so now you have government stepping in to decide now in the form of david borren what speech gets into the marketplace of ideas. >> that has to be the last word and thank you ar reeva martin and joey shibley and robert martin. some see this as an opportunity. up next a member of the kkk on how the sclan recruiting to today. bonus on jetta models. seriously, pinch me. it's not a dream. ow! it's the volkswagen stop dreaming, start driving event. stop dreaming, and test-drive one today. hurry in and you can get 0% apr plus a $1000 volkswagen credit bonus on 2015 jetta and passat models.
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these past few days we have heard many people express outrage over that oklahoma university chant. and our next guest has a different view. he is the imperial leader of the ku klux klan. and now you have been in ferguson recruiting member ss and the same in selma, and are you going to be taking opportunity in oklahoma as well. and what do you believe of the chant that was said in oklahoma university and the expulsions?
>> well, it is a double standard. >> it is different for whites. because white people can't get into the black fraternities. >> well, that is not true. i know white people who have gotten into black fra ternternities. >> well, it is not true, because -- >> why do you believe it is not true. >> well we have the freedom of association, and people can be allowed to go into the fraternities fraternities, and we want to have all white fraternities just like there is the all black fra tern fraternities, and the black panther party, and the knappnaacp and why can't we do that? >> well, you are a member of a white fraternity and when you
go into the university part of the rules are that it is integrated university, and no rules that say it is a white university and you are allowed to have a white fraternity and the kkk is one. >> yes, but what would happen is just like what would happen in oklahoma city is if we tried to have our own fraternity on the school campus, this is the kind of stuff that happens. people shout words like racist and bigot, and so forth, and people don't pay attention of the negro funds and black colleges. >> well you understand that it is the history of the racisteism that plaques could not get into other universities and they could not get there -- >> well, thaey can now, and so why are they still around? >> well there are white universities and why is the kkk still around? >> well, there is a
constitutional right, and god given right. exodus that people shall remain separate and leviticus that you shall take people of your own white, and so you, yourself are mixed so we will see what happened. >> and it also says that man was created in god's image, and so i believe that i was created in god's image. >> and adam was the first white man, and so that is how i know it. >> and you know a lot about the bible, so you noeknow that adam is not white. >> and adam was a member of the -- >> and do you think that the -- >> don't try to cut me off, because people want to know what i have to say. >> i am not trying to cut you off, but i have other things to say. >> and the bible say ss -- >> well, we are not here for a bible lesson, but i am going to talk about that you were a member of the kkk in your teen
and what drew you to the group? >> that people like yourself who said that i i could not stand up for my race, and that i could not go to schools that were at the ending to schools that black people could not at the end, and this is not true. and i'm not going to be standing for it anymore. >> and what does your peaceful world stand for? >> well that there are no more synagogues or other places that we have satan out of there. >> and all righty. >> you don't want to hear it. >> well, you are not responding to the questions of what i am responding to you. and i -- >> you don't want to hear it? >> no, i was not asking you about being anti-semitic and being jews and excuse me imperial james kludd of the kkk.
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that last guest on to figure out why. so where are we when it comes to racist in the country, and joining me is ben ferguson and marc lamont hill. >> and notice that none of us are broadcasting from our mom's basement tonight. and i will also say this you know when the government starts a program we worry that it is never going to be finish and a couple of years they said that they wanted to bring internet to everyone in america, and i think that it is official that they have done it. so congratulations to that guy, because we have internet to everyone now. >> and yes, so. now, they are using it as a recruiting opportunity, and it is sad when you have the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday and klan fliers hand eded out, and candy handed out in some places. are they desperate to seem relevant now, ben ferguson? >> did you see where the guy was broadcasting from?
when you rare in your mom's basement wearing the earphones, yes, you are desperate, and no doubt in my mind. they are the most irrelevant group in 2015. i mean, these guys literally re refer to themselves as the grand cyclops, and how bored do you have to be be to come up with special names like that? >> ben, i am honest, and marc, we had him at a studio and they had a problem with who he was and the organization, and so they would not let him in. >> good for them. >> marc sorry to cut you off. >> while it is reasonable to make fun of them and talk about how irrelevant they are, and who joins the klan in 2015, i get that, but at the same time, i don't want to marginalize that the ideology to the extent that we forget that a whole bunch of people believe this. >> that is why we had him on, because it is shocking, because i want to know who people like that are doing rather than keeping them in the dark. >> or needing a videotape on the
bus to know what they are thinking, right? because we want to frame the whole crisis of the week of the aura of unusualness of that it is an outlier and so no there is a look of truth that like eric garner and that this video truth is going to give us access of what we know has been happen ing in a long time. and in terms of the anti-semitism, i read those flyers and they were talking about immigration, and obama not being from here, and that is a whole lot of what they believe is the truth. >> and here is the thing, they are not recruiting but trying to stand up to be relevant, and jump up, and down, and say, we are still here and i have jumped up and down and brought my cousins here, and we are going to be on tv, and you are not going to get a recruit at selma or ferguson and i am going to be a media whore.
>> well ben, when we were down tlhere in ferguson, the klan had rallies on the other side of the town. and when it was them coming in it galvanized the other size. >> this guy came in from virginia to ferguson. >> i am just saying that the ideology is espoused. there are a whole bunch of folks who think that obama is not from here, and there are all kinds of narratives that come through, and i don't care about the klan but i am more concerned about the fact that there are people in oklahoma on a bus who are singing some belief ss. >> and that is the next point, do you believe that there is a shift, and obvious ily there is a shift in the theirnarrative that people are saying it on the buses than in public. >> any time you have bigotry, and, don, any time you have bigotry, and you have a world
that we live in now with so much access to the media and the cameras, and anything else people are going to be more cautious about where they say stupid stuff in places that they feel are safe, but it does not mean that it is is growing, but it shows you that people are being more introverted, because there is going to be be bigots and people who hate chinese people and black people and white people and other people but there is always going to be people who shake their heads at people like the idiots of the last guy, and there are people going to the right direction, and this is not going to get worse. >> and i am not worried about the giuy in the basement in some mom's basement with a klan uniform, but some of them have traded in the sheets for the three-piece suits and the college students and some of them are going to go on to be policy makers, and the bosses and politicians. >> yes. >> and when goi in for a job
interview, and one of them may be on the other side of the desk and they may not believe that stuff, but they do, and that is why this video is so telling and chilling to us. >> and ben, let's talk about the kids on the bus, because, again, i think that it is a good point, this is not just isolated and these kids are acting up and they said something stupid, and many people in fra ternternities and sororities that is how they get the first job and they carry what they have learned from the universities and the organizations into the working world, and with once they become a member of congress a member of the fortune 500 company, and the boss or the manager of the company, and that is frightening, and this is the legacy of what happened in oklahoma. >> and also, the legacy could be this everyone out there that thinks that this is appropriate, you are on notice and probably going to be busted for it. it is probably going to be one of the greatest teachable moments of reform in 2015 and beyond. every fra ternternity in america that
has a brain and every chapter that has a brain is goging to be sitting down with the new recruits and the president this week, i promise you and say, we are never going to allow this to ever happen and there is going to be probably more of an initiative to bring in the minorities into any, into any fraternity black or white or hispanic and it can be used for good. >> and should these kids be expelled or allow people to say this openly? would that help? here is what is -- here is what rush limbaugh said. >> can i respond to that? >> well, first rush and then you can respond. >> if this had been a song by kim kardashian's husband and they had sung this song at the grammy's it'd be a hit. can we agree with that? this stuff gets awards and people who sing it are portrayed adds american royalty, and you
can't deny it. >> and allow it everywhere, and let the kids say it so we know that it is there? >> well no we can't police people's speech and they should say what they want and we should have transparent ideas and circulating in the nation and there should be consequences for speech but if you create a unhealthy and unsafe environment for people on college campuses you have to be clear, but when you change the culture for the fraternities, you have to be universal when white people do something wrong but black fraternities don't do that, they are welcoming, and they want to do it right -- >> marc marc marc with all due respect. there are some african-americans and white fra ternternities and there needs to be be more of the mingling of the two -- >> no, they don't. >> and let me finish, if you don't think that when i was in college, and i promise you, it was not very welcoming to go into the african-american fraternity houses with the college that i attended. there is a divide and let's not
act like it is one side. >> and maybe that is because of you, ben. >> i am not saying that -- >> it is because of you, ben ferguson and not because you are white. >> and come on, now, marc. >> now ben -- >> that sis a whole other show. and now, let's talk about ferguson, because who would want this job as a police chief. and this is live now, in front of the ferguson police department and i want ded to show you that obviously, there are folks gathering there, and police officers setting up a shield around the department and what do you think of the resignation today? first ben and then marc? >> well, it is a step in the right direction, and it is a long time coming, and you have to have a new leadership role, and new people in leadership and bring in a whole lot of new cops to change it. >> marc? >> the they needed leadership, and this should have happened and the people need to select the next police chief. and if there is policing it sis
a different kon ver but the people need to -- a different conversation but that needs to be elected by the people of ferguson. >> i love both of you, and i need to figure out a name for your segment. and now remember last night when we saw the man taking aed toler, and the children chasing behind and then the two teenagers chasing him, and chased him until he let the boy down. we are learning that the man is actually 15-year-old, and he has been arrested. and now, a rip-off. we we are joined by the wife of marvin gaye, and we will talk
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(don't fear my darling...) (the lion sleeps tonight.) (hush my darling...) man snoring (don't fear my darling...) (the lion sleeps tonight.) woman snoring take the roar out of snore. yet another innovation only at a sleep number store. robin thicke and fa rel williams didn't blur the line, but crossed it. their song "blurred line" ripped off the classic of marvin gaye so a california jury ordered them to pay $7.6 million for
copyright infringement, and joining us now is the wife of marvin gaye and mo ether of his children. and also the attorney for marvin gaye. and how are you doing? >> very well. >> incredible. >> i am glad that you are here. and i want to play the two song os back-to-back. here they are. ♪ ♪ because i was to really get down ♪ ♪ maybe i going dedeaf ♪ ♪ maybe i'm going blind ♪ ♪ maybe i'm going out of my mind ♪ >> i remember singing this song and i was in a car with a group of people saying oh they have redone "got to give it up" and did you immediately recognize the similarity?
>> oh, yes, absolutely. it didn't take more than a minute to hear the similarities. and having been in the studio, and having the song and sung the song and having my children grow up listening to it, i knew it immediately. >> yes. $7.3 million the jury awarded you in damages, and that's the verdict, is it just? >> yes. i don't think that we could be any happier. i really don't. >> and you know, it is a huge hit for pharrell williams and robin thicke, and how did you feel that it infringed on marvin's song, because marvin is an icon and he is beloved by so many people, and it really upset a lot of people beyond the people. >> i think it did upset a lot of marvin purist, and people who loved marvin's music generally speaking and to have mr. wil
williams and mr. thicke deny that there was no copying done, and no sampling done or any similarity and in terms of the storying change and it was very -- it got depressing and i thought that it was disrespectfulk and i know that if marvin were alive, he wouldn't have stood for it. >> and can i read the statement to you, because this is from pharrell from robin thicke and t.i. and they ishsued the statement the saying that we respect the judicial process and dis disappointed in the ruling and it sets a terrible process for creative going forward and "blurred lines" was created from the heart and minds of pharrell, robin and t.i. and not taken from anywhere else, and we are reviewing the option and you will hear from us soon about this matter. richard, anything to appeal here? >> i don't think so.
they were able to obtain every evidentiary ruling they wanted to obtain. we fought this the case with one arm tied behind our back, and really one and a half arms behind our back and this is a copyright infringement case where they claimed innocence, but they fought tooth and nail to keep frus playing "got to give it up" in the courtroom, and we had to play the excerpts and compare it to "blurred lines" and even with that, and even with that arm behind our back we were able to prove to the jury that it was a taking of the composition of "got to give it up" and it is not the taking of the genre or the taking of the era or the groove or a feeling which is their argument. we had terrible musicologist and judith munson and they showed that the keyboard and the structure was copy and it was a
copyright infringement. >> and a number of people in the music industry saying this is an ode, t properly and come to the family and said this is what we want to do, and much like eric sermon and come to the family and said, this is what we want to do with the respect to the family and had a number one with it, and we love eric to it a sierra nevada a great amountt of respect. >> and we love marvin gaye and thank you jan and thank you, richard busch for coming to join us to talk about this. >> thank you, don, for having us.
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what a show. thanks for watching. "ac 360" starts right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com good evening, and thank you for joining us. a show ahead of us seekcret service and not again. yes, an embarrassing incident that allowed a guy to jump the fence and allow a guy to take potshots at the official residence and another