and it really says a lot about the will to live for the little baby lily as well. thank you so much. appreciate it. thank going to do it for me. thank you for being with me all afternoon long. more of the news room straight ahead with poppy harlow. cnn news room i'm poppy harlow. we begin with a state of emergency in the south pacific after tropical cyclone pam struck the island chain of vanuatu with a furry of a category five hurricane. that's what it was e lentquivalent to. the city of port villa looks like a bomb went off. at least six people are dead. that number will likely rise as search teams comb through the area. there is no power, there is no portable water, trees are down

in droves. the storm hit virtually all of the nation's 83 islands located hundreds of miles off of the coast of australia. our linda kin candidate has more. this is the sound of wind gusts of up to 200 miles per hour as cyclone pam slammed into the pacific island of vanuatu endangering the lives of nearly 250,000 people. >>it's absolute devastation here. there's uprooted trees. roovs have been ripped off everywhere. roads are blocked. >> it looks like an absolute --

it is devastating. i'm just driving around where you can drive through because there are a lot of roads that are blocked off. trees haven't just fallen across the road here they have fallen across -- in some places you barely see over the top. the water is incredibly rough. there are some villages that have just been absolutely decimated. there are local huts which are native thatched roofs and walls as well. they've been absolutely blown away. >> most of us in the hotel ended up sleeping underneath the facilities in the bathroom. i've been through many typhoons including category five larry in 2006. this was phenomenal. it went on and on forever. >> pam is one of the strongest cyclones ever to hit the region. people took cover in churches and schools.

the capital city of port villa home to nearly 6 million in population suffered power cuts. in at a conference in japan the prime minister spoke with an heavy heart as he made an appeal for international help. >> i'm speaking with you today with a heart that is so heavy. i don't really know what impact cyclone pam -- >> evacuation centers and we're working with the government how can we provide shelters? all the agencies on the ground. >> it may take weeks before the full extent of the damage is known. linda kinkade, krn this. the pictures say it all. in a stunning consequence he was in vanuatu reporting for his serious, the wonder list. you spent a lot of time there. a lot of time with the locals.

we saw the pictures. talk to me overall what the infrastructure is like. >> it's deceiving. where we see port vila. they have relatively modern facilities there. so many islands are living in the past and, i mean, no concrete on any of these places. and we went there for that reason. these folks are on the edge of development. they're deciding what is best for them. whether tourism is a way to go. it's easy to are are -- right behind him is shelter. >> you said some of the people even live in the trees. >> exactly. yeah. there are tree houses. i'm picturing, you know, this beautiful little place where we went. there's a church there with a tin roof. i'm picturing the people huddled inside there under the volcano. we went into one of the schools.

but it's getting through the 200 miles per hour winds in a house like that where the little girls live is one thing. after wards when you think about these are folks who every day wake up and decide whether to fish or pick their meal. >> they're self-sufficient. i know they told you this is among their chief concerns. it's something like this could happen. >> absolutely. there was a big one in the '30s that really rearranged the communities on different islands because people couldn't no longer live on low-lying. this will be -- i can only imagine and shudder to think about how it's going to change their lives. >> can you tell me it was like for you and your small crew. not a ton of camera crew. what it means for the relief and aid workers. >> from here it takes three days. from australia it's about a four and a half flight. the airport there, the run ways are shorter than they would like. it's a limited size plane can get in there. ships, of course can dock.

to get to the outer islands, these are grass airstrips that can only take small cessnas. even if they loaded the biggest possible plane full of water and food -- >> a lot will have to come by ship and it will take time. >> exactly. >> one sort of upside is what was surprising to you, and i think to everyone watching is the communication. the cell service for the people that have cell phones is actually quite good. so for notification. >> in theory yes. it surprised me. but, again, when the sign was shining. i heard reports that maybe one tower survived. they're rated for a category three. this is a five. so that amazing signal i got on the top of the rock and, you know we've sent e-mails to all of our friends and who knows how long before they are able to recharge in order to check. >> absolutely. >> and we know the early numbers six dead but that's likely going

to rise. >> hearts are breaking. if i do have a second, because so many people who saw that original have asked. if you go to cnn.com/impact you can help. there's the best ngos red did toy -- ready to help as soon as they can. >> go to cnn.com/impact. you can help. it would be greatly appreciated. let me go to tom, our meteorologist joining me now from the cnn weather center. tom, when we talk about this storm, i think the question a lot of people have now it's done the damage on vanuatu, where does it go next? >> well, it's dropping down toward areas of new zealand. there are warnings there. it's not going to be near as strong as it was. as we watch our location now, i'll show you where -- here is hawaii. the warmest waters in the world are in the south pacific across the top end of australia. at one time this week we had

four systems that we have been watching. it's extremely active. in fact one moved to western australia, one to the north, this is nathan. we have what most likely a typhoon heading toward the philippines. you can see the strongest and largest. hurricanes and cyclones are all the same. notice the colors of purple. what we find are the winds are the strongest. keep in mind in the southern hemisphere they circulate clock wise. much different. if you think of the damage of hurricane sandy. if you think of katrina or eye says even andrew in florida, this is more powerful. so port vila the capital 50,000 live there. 65,000 in the island but you get down in the southern islands as well. that's where another 33,000. so the hardest hit area where the eye went through affecting 100,000 people. there's a quarter million that live in this island chain. that's what we're watching. we had 26 foot storm surge and most of the locations very vulnerable on the coastline. as you saw talking with bill they don't have the structures that is needed.

it's going to take weeks to find not only the death toll but to give aid to everyone who is going to need it. devastating story. >> absolutely devastating. thank you so much tom. we appreciate it. we'll state with you for the latest. it you want to help go to cnn.com/impact. coming up next search for who shot two ferguson police officers. what kind of gun could have been so precise from so far away? we're going to have a report on that coming up next.

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police in ferguson, missouri working around the clock hoping to identify whoever shot two police officers on wednesday night. the reward for information now sits at $10,000, much of which came from public donations and that number could grow as more people donate. investigators say so far they have come up short in the manhunt. they say they're pursuing several leads.

they may even have a correct lead on whoever fired the shots. let's bring in a professor of criminologist and criminal justice at the university of missouri and former lapd officer. thank you for being with me. >> thank you for having me. >> some background for our viewers here you were a former police officer back in 1981. you and your partner were involved in this incident. your partner was stabbed. you ended up killing that suspect in south l.a. so not only do you have that background experience but you're also right there in ferguson. what is the reaction to these two officers being shot on wednesday night? i wonder if you're surprised there have been no arrests yet. >> first of all, in terms of reaction, there's a reaction in the law enforcement community. my friends who are in law enforcement still, you know, i left some 30 years ago, but at any rate a great deal of concern and a sense of what it takes so long. what i mean by that is law enforcement officers have been listening to the chants, you know "kill the cops" on social

media. they're surprised it took this long. and so they're very saddened but they're not surprised. then the community, obviously within i have a lot of contacts in the community not law enforcement. there left side a great deal of concern about the dangers officers face. the community is largely rallying around the officers. >> let me ask you this so many of the protesters have been peaceful protesters. we've heard a lot of them including the family of mike brown come out and condemn this violent act calling it heinous. this shouldn't happen. so -- a lot of protesters say, look the shots didn't come from within our ranks. all though it's also important to have a strong relationship between the police force and the community, especially when you need information from the community about who may have fired the shots. >> absolutely. and in terms of the peaceful protesters versus the groups i've been calling for months the knuckle heads. there are bad actors who are mixed up along with the peaceful

protesters. even during the first rioting, during august and november again there were bad actors who were doing bad things who were firing shots. we're not quite sure who they were aiming at. fortunately more officers weren't struck. being able to keep a positive vent between the police and a majority of the community is very important. and it in terms of developing leads, as you pointed out, that's vital. people generally do want to come forward. they generally do want to assist police catching violent felons particularly those after police officers. we have to remember there are some bad people out there. >> let me ask you one more question. the statistics that came out in december report shows that the number of police officers across this suncountry shot in the line of duty increased more than 50% in 2014. the officers you know in los angeles, in missouri across this country, are they scared? >> no with they're not scared. they understand it's a dangerous

job but they're concerned. they're concerned about the heightened rhetoric. they're concerned about people marching through the streets of new york for example, what do we want? we want dead caps. this is stuff that needs to be condemned by everybody. people need to be proactively condemning these fools. >> good to have you. thank you for being with me. part of the investigation in ferguson involves figuring out what kind of weapon was used in the shooting. officers report seeing muzzle flashes about 125 yards away. gary went to find out how feasible would be for a pistol to be accurate. >> at this gun range in georgia, we come to find out about long distance weapon firing. [ gunshot ] and for rifles and pistol at 45 yards. the distance police in missouri

believe a bullet traveled to wound two police officers. >> this ammunition is 308. >> a 308 caliber. this rifle is a remmington 700. a traditional deer hunting rifle. the target is about 410 yards away about the same presumed range as the ferguson gunshots. for a short lesson i take a shot. >> against my shoulder and here we go. [ gunfire ] i think that's a good shot. >> indeed the bullet hits the target first try. a direct hit. same results with the second shot. so there's no question such a rifle is capable of the shootings in missouri. what about a pistol? not as high powered and designed for closer range. this is a glock nine millimeter. >> typically we don't shoot handguns past 10-meters, which is about 11 yards. our instructor will aim for the

range's farthest target. this is 110 yards with a pistol. the bullet barely misses the target. the pistol doesn't have a scope and isn't as accurate as the rifle. it certainly would have hit somebody standing in a group at that distance. there's no question someone up to a no good who has a pistol can fire it and had go 125 yards. >> the bullet would go that far. >> could go much farther? >> a lot much further. it could go 200, 300. the bullet is going to drop after a certain distance. >> for that reason the pistol is to be slightly tilted up to hit the intended target at that distance. tere's also the possibility that in ferguson someone could have taken a wild shot simply in the direction of the officers not intending to hit them, just hoping to scare them through the crowd. that would be a bad idea. >> there's no more important rule or no more important thing

to gun ownership than gun safety. >> someone nearly everyone in ferguson, missouri would agree with. gary tuckman, cnn temple georgia. >> thank you. coming up machine gun america. that is what it's called. it is a theme park for gun lovers. even children are allowed. we'll talk about that next. also why terrorists are targeting minneapolis, minnesota trying to recruit fighters there. two months into the fit nation challenge. sanjay gupta checks in on a married couple trying to get in shape together. >> how important is this to do together? >> accountability is huge. i feel like we would hold each other accountable. we have the same goals. like if you don't want to work out one day but i do let me help motivate you. >> is this going to be more supporting each other or friendly competition? >> i'm a little --

>> it's awesome. >> you know i think i just want to support each other. i just want to make it fun for both of us and help one another. >> what you concerned about? >> for us to stay on track. to make sure we stick with it. and having the team support and knowing four other members are doing it with us too. that's a cool thing. >> is he going have any difficulty crossing the finish line? >> concern she had a little back surgery last year. a disc bullgebulge. she was delivering babies all the time. but she has the strongest work ethic. i don't doubt she'll finish. we may have challenges but there's no one that can outwork her. i'm excited. i know, she'll finish flchlt! >> we'll cross the finish line together. >> that sounds good!

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flee men accused in a plot to join isis have pleaded not guilty to tropical stormropical storm terrorism charges. two planned to fly from new york to turkey last month and cross to syria. the third suspect allegedly funded the operation an online

post from one of them tipped off the fbi in august. the plan allegedly included harming president obama, even planting a bomb on coney island if he wasn't able to join the terrorist group. each of those suspects now faces up to 15 years in prison. f they are convicted. the numbers are stunning 3400 westerners from 90 countries have left their homes to fight with isis in syria and iraq. nearly 200 of them are americans. it's clear the recruitment efforts are working especially in minnesota. home to the largest somali immigrant population in the united states. we went to minneapolis to speak with this community who is actively trying to fight this right alongside the fbi. far from the deserts of syria and iraq isis terrorists are eyeing vulnerable young men and women here. >> is isis targeting the somali community in minnesota? >> yes. >> no question? >> no question.

>> how aggressively? >> aggressively. they're recruiting westerners but they're recruiting here. >> through online propaganda their efforts are working. for the somali community in minneapolis, it is a chilling replay of the recent past. >> in 2007 more than 20 somali minnesotans left here to fight with the terrorist group al shabaab. now a second wave but this time it is isis recruiting them. approximately 15 people have left minnesota to fight with isis. >> we have had a number of people travel from the twin cities we've had a number of people attempt to travel and as we speak, there are people making preparations to travel. >> it is still going on? >> it is ongoing. >> the most vulnerable are also some of the community's youngest like this arrested in february. >> what was he like? >> good kid. i mean i never pictured him -- >> authorities say 19-year-old

and three companions took a bus to new york's jfk airport in november. his destination istanbul but he never made it. instead he's here in jail awaiting trial charged with attempting to provide material support to isis. >> a 19-year-old kid. >> that's who they're recruiting. 18 to 20-year-olds is the focus. that's focus of the recruiting by isis right now. >> others recruited douglas mccain who was killed fighting with isis in syria this summer. his friend troy was recruited by al shabaab. >> this is a real disney land. you need to come and join us. >> he died fighting with them in 2009. his mother spoke to cnn last year. >> i had no clue that he was going into a dangerous situation in that way. i think they were manipulated and i don't think they knew what they were fully what they were part of.

>> ask people here why this is happening. some will say a feeling of isolation. disenfranchisement. others say a lack of opportunity. many just don't know. but all who we talk to say it must stop. among them a mother of six. >> every mother that, you know is constantly thinking about oh my god. this could happen to me. >> is this fight becoming even harder? >> it is a silent killer. you just don't know. you don't see it. and, boom it happens. >> and your child is gone. >> and your child is gone. >> a silent killer that took his nephew. he was recruited when he was 17. >> tell me about your nephew. >> it's the kind of nephew anyone would wish for. nice no crime, a-student, high hopes of going to harvard. >> you think your nephew was looking for a better life? >> yes.

a lot of kids are looking for a better life. i'm sure 99% of -- aware of what the reality on the ground is. >> and he believes the threat from isis is even greater than that posed by al shabaab. >> what is different with isis is they're not only targeting somali community. so it's something now that we all have to work together and worry about. >> the fbi calls minnesota the most impacted by this threat. >> as a special agent in charge here what do you see that the terrorist oversees that are using this as a recruitment ground? >> that we're going to use the entire weight of the united states government prevent you from recruiting our youth to travel overseas to fight and die. >> the religious leaders want this to stop. this is not about religion. this is about terror recruiting. we're doing everything we can to turn it around. >> we have a problem. we're addressing it. that's what minnesotans do.

>> a problem that now has the attention of and funding from the white house. u.s. attorney andrew lugar is spearheading the effort in minneapolis. >> if you were to boil down the solution how you're attacking this how would you describe it? >> the way the community described it to me. they wanted more community engagement by law enforcement, more mentoring through more job opportunities, afterschool programs, in-school programs intervention teams that grow out of the community working together at the early signs of radicalization radicalization. it's precisely what cartoonist mohamed akman is doing. >> you created a cartoon series basically, to try to fight isis propaganda. >> correct. the goal is to fight isis and al shabaab and boko haram. they're from the same ideology. if you go after one ideology -- and objective is to go ahead and

the kids between the age of 8 and 16 and get them to look at this before they get to the extremist videos on facebook. >> you say it takes ss idea to destroy an idea. >> yes, it does. we fight it the way we're fighting it. >> but those recruited are just the tiny fraction of the somali community here. something we're reminded of at every turn. >>citizens who left war in their homeland now fighting a battle to save their children here. >> coming up one organization in minnesota is testin a program to rehabilitate some of the teens including this one that are being recruited by al shabaab and isis. it is a controversial move but can it work? the executive director joins me next. why do we do it? why do we spend every waking moment, thinking about people?

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as you just saw in our piece, youth across this country also in minnesota, specifically are being targeted by icesis. some believe jail is not necessarily the solution. especially for some of the youngest offenders like 18-year-old abdullah yew receive. he is awaiting sentencing in minnesota right now. joining me here on set, mary mckinley. she runs a program in minnesota working to rehabilitate tate him. when we were reporting on the story, we heard about what you were doing. i have to admit it's controversial. it's not something that the u.s. attorney's office was supportive of. what is your goal? >> our goal is to work with him very slowly and take it bit by

bit. we don't really have approval to work with him on an extended period. he's awaiting sentencing. there's a lot of legal matters he's working with. >> this is not instead of jail for example. >> that's right. not yet. but what we're doing in the meantime is trying to continue our outreach in the community to expand our programs working with youth to work on the prevention side. because we know that these young people for the most part don't want to join isis. but a lot of them as i heard reporting there, get roped into this feel like they sort of have a lack of attachment to anything being disenfranchised. some will scoff at the argument and say just because you feel like that you don't join a terrorism organization. what do you say to the critics who argue how it can change someone's thinking. >> they don't feel connected. they are growing up in immigrant community which is largely -- there's a high unemployment

rate. there's many more people coming from somalia all the time because the ongoing civil war there. the services that are provided to this community for education, social services housing are strapped. and so what we try to do is to find connections for these young people in their community to try to provide some basic education. something they can convict to in the community and prevent that kind of attachment that might make to something that is more violent. >> i know a lot within the somali community are working to fight that. almost everyone in the community is against. it it's a anyonetiny fraction. i want to make that clear. you have nonsomalis getting recruited by isis all over the country. average mid western kids kids on the west coast, in the north, the south, the northeast. it's happening across the boards. is there any precedent for a program like yours out there? >> a lot of the groups that we're looking at are working in

europe, because they have much greater numbers of people who have gone over. it's the same philosophy. we look at what are the baseline issues in the young population and why are they feeling disconnected in their community communities and future. how can we empower them and their parents, frankly. we're trying to focus a lot of this attention on the struggles of their parents, just like u.s. attorney andy lugar was saying. this is community issue. >> let me ask you this quickly. is your goal ultimately to have this as an option instead of jail sentences for some offenders? >> well, we're not really speaking to that now. we want to focus on the prevention side. it's more cost effective economically if we focus on kids not thinking about joining isis. the recruitment efforts are strong. the community and parents are concerned about the messaging

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cnn. here is cnn's royal correspondent max foster. >> people cannot believe it's been ten years, and in that time the duchess has been finding her own public role. has that been a challenge? >> you can imagine it is a real challenge. but she's, i think, been brilliant in the way she's tackled these things. >> the duchess of cornwall would have to overcome the perception of being the other woman. on face the public that didn't know her particularly well and had adored dianna. other the years the british public warm talked to her as she stood by charles and championed her own interests. cnn has been given intimate access to her appearances. we watched her host a christmas party for very sick children. spent a day at the races.

and followed her to the base of an infantry regimen. >> one of the things that struck me something you know about her, her charm and her humor. it's a sight that doesn't always come across on television. it's pretty powerful in real life isn't it? >> yes. it's a peculiar thing. but also inevitably you can be a bit more relaxed when somebody is -- the dreaded camera. >> and the man with the best job in television joins me now cnn royal correspondent max foster. congratulations on an extraordinary documentary airing tonight at 7:30 p.m. eastern. i'm interested in why prince charles is speaking now

>>well i think it's been a difficult time for camilla over the years. back at the time when dianna died something like 90% of the british population in polls were against her ever becoming queen. back at the time when charles and camilla marriedyied the number was around 60%. now it's down to 35% of people in britain oppose camilla being known as queen. there's a gradual warming. he wants her to be queen. technically she'll become queen at the moment. she'll using a different title. i think he wants the tworltd get to know her. over the passage of time they are separating her from the event. >> did he say anything about the late princess dianna? >> he didn't talk about her because this was the anniversary interview about camilla. and she's not, obviously, a part

of his life anymore but very much in the boy's lives. so he respects the legacy they're trying to keep alive. he doesn't want to interfere in what he sees for them is a real priority. he doesn't talk about her. he doesn't want to upset anyone around that. so he talks about camilla and he talks about his relationships. >> so i know they're coming to the united states next week i think. what are we expecting? >> well, they're going to travel to washington. they're going to meet president obama. i think that will be a highlight and they'll go to louisville kentucky. it's has a tour that has some significance. the first u.s. tour was after the wedding when they were newlyweds. at that time there was a real viciousness against camilla at that time. it will be interesting to see whether the american public warmed to her. i think prince charles sees this as a pretty momentous visit in

his marriage. he won't talk about it again as i understand it. but this is his point of making she's not going anywhere. >> the one, the only time you'll hear it. max foster special later tonight on cnn. thank you so much. we appreciate it. again, this rare access to charles and camilla. a special event only right here. a theme park in orlando but it is not what you think. we're going to take you inside machine gun america. this is an attraction centered around automatic weapons. before that we're going to talk about something completely different. listen to this. all right. all of us have car problems. they're stressful and inkreent they can blow your budget. now imagine adding to that just struggling to get by. trying to make it all work. we're going to introduce you to a woman who was driven to fix this problem and she is our first cnn hero of 2015.

>> i've been a delivery driver coming up on a year now. having a car problem just brings a lot of stress. my calipers are seized there's a smell of gas. i'm deathly worried about my safety. having two daughters, it just really heightened this situation. >> i was social worker for 15 years. i kept seeing people struggling with making ends meet. one car repeer can upset the entire cards. why isn't somebody doing something about this? one day it occurred to me that somebody might be me. i did not grow up working on cars. so i ended up getting a degree in auto technology. >> does it get worse when you turn on the heat? >> how we're different than a

regular garage. people have to meet certain income requirements. >> i was quoted close to $1400. >> we charge the customer $15 an hour for labor. market rate was about $100 an hour. we don't do mark up on the parts. we're a lot less. about $300. >> okay. if i need to give you guys more. a car that works allows them to meet the basic needs of their lives with dignity. thank you for your patience. >> you get a hug. >> oh thank you! >> it's a lot of weight off my shoulders. >> thank you. >> it's about moving people forward and moving their lives forward. cay think, we salute you. thank you so much for what you do. if you know someone who deserves recognition like that go to cnnheros.com and nominate them. we'll be back in a moment.

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it's a new theme park just a few miles from disneyworld. but critics argue this is no magic kingdom. machine gun america. that's what it's called. it bills itself as orlando's first automatic adrenaline attraction. a place where kids as young as

13 can fire military-grade weapons. our reporter went to see what it's all about. >> reporter: this brand-new 13,000 square foot facility is just a few miles from disney world. welcome to machine gun america. where guests as young as 13 can shoot assault weapons with live ammo. >> i think i'm going to try the other gun. >> reporter: karen and her husband brought their 17 and 13-year-olds to orlando to go to disney. then they spotted machine gun america. >> it's like wow, this is crazy. we just shotguns. >> big guns. >> yeah, big guns. in the room other people were shooting bigger guns. that was nerve-racking. >> reporter: her husband and older son also fired several weapons. the 13-year-old only watched. >> i was glad i didn't let jacob

do it. he was just 13. it its very powerful. >> reporter: very powerful and very popular with adults, since opening its doors in december machine gun america says only 6% of guests have been minors. >> we're not only advertising or marketing to 13-year-olds. >> reporter: children 13 or older can only come inside with a parent or legal guardian. but this doctor says even exposing young teens to this environment is dangerous. >> it's another family gaming activity right? wrong. i don't think it's just another activity. i think this is something that can seriously affect child development and not in a good way. >> reporter: he points to the incident last year at an arizona shooting range where a 9-year-old girl firing a uzzi accidentally shot and killed an instructor. here at machine gun america, wes dawes says children under 13 aren't even allowed inside. and 13 to 16-year-olds are only allowed to shoot a submachine gun as long as it's not in fully automatic mode. >> is there ever a reason for a

13-year-old to shoot one of these weapons? >> we leave that up to their parents to make that decision. >> i'm ready. >> go ahead. >> reporter: i wanted to see if i could feel the difference between firing a weapon in semiautomatic and automatic. i started off with a handgun, and worked my way to an mp 5, a submachine gun. first in semiautomatic then in automatic. and the difference was easy to feel. >> you have a little less control, i feel. my arms hurt my heart is still racing. my palms are a little sweaty. >> thank you, alina mochado. we'll be back in just a moment. hey, how's the college visit? you remembered. it's good. does it make the short list? you remembered that too. yea, i'm afraid so. knowing our clients personally is what we do. it's okay. this is what we've been planning for. thanks, bye. and with over 13,000 financial advisors

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4:00 eastern. you're in the cnn news room. i'm poppy harlow joining you from new york. we begin in ferguson missouri a city where an all-out manhunt is still under way to try to find whoever is responsible for shooting two police officers on wednesday night. investigators say they are pursuing several leads in this case. they're now offering a $10,000 reward. our reporter is live in ferguson for us this afternoon. stephanie elam what can you tell us on the ground? what's the latest in the investigation? >> reporter: the investigation definitely is continuing here poppy. law enforcement saying they have investigators working around the

clock to try to identify who was behind shooting those two police officers who have been released from the hospital though one was shot in the face and one was shot in the shoulder. but looking at who they have, they don't have anyone in custody at this point. they said they'd interviewed other people interviewed witnesses as well. just to categorize the shooting this is what the police chief from the st. louis county police department had to say. >> this is really an ambush is what it is. you can't see it coming. you don't understand it's going to happen. you're basically defenseless from the fact that it is happening to you at the time. and that is something that is very difficult to guard against when you have a group of officers standing in a large group and then you have certainly gunfire direct at them. >> it's a tragedy either way. it undermines everything that everybody's trying to do in this. it really does. now, i won't walk away from the fact that it is not beyond the realm of possibility that having all those officers standing there together and the fact that

two of those officers were hit, that these officers were targeted. >> reporter: now, that $10,000 reward that is out there, they are considering increasing that number. they think that will actually help get them some leads on who was behind this shooting. late wednesday night, poppy. >> stephanie quickly before i let you go the mayor of ferguson i believe, speaking this afternoon? we're seeing so many officials step down or get fired in the town of ferguson. i wonder if he's going to address his job at all. do we know? >> reporter: he's not speaking necessarily. what he's doing is he's meeting with members of the black business community here. what we understand is that some of those business owners may actually pledge their support to the mayor. it's worth pointing out as well that last night even in the driving rain there were people out here protesting the ferguson police department there was also a small group of people who was out here and they were actually showing their support

not just for the police department and specifically the police officers but also for the mayor, for james knoll saying they stand behind him. he's saying he's not going anywhere. he says if the people want to remove him there are ways they can go about that. we understand one organization is looking to see if they can go ahead and get the signatures from people of ferguson to make that happen. right now that's all in the preliminary phases is what we're hearing, poppy. >> stephanie elam live in ferguson. stephanie, thank you. wasn't to go now to milwaukee county sheriff david clark. he joins me. thank you for being with me sheriff. >> my pleasure poppy. >> first i want everyone to listen to part of what president obama said this week responding to the attacks on these two police officers. >> there was no excuse for criminal acts. and whoever fired those shots

shouldn't detract from the issue. they're criminals. they need to be arrested. and then what we need to do is to make sure that like-minded, good-spirited people on both sides, law enforcement who have a terrifically tough job and people who understandably don't want to be stopped and harassed just because of their race that we're able to work together to try to come up with some good answers. >> attorney general eric holder also coming out this week after those officers were shot calling it heinous, disgusting and cowardly. sheriff, you say those responses aren't enough. why? >> well they're mixed messages. this is a very convoluted message from the president. on one hand he talks about the seriousness of the offense. where was he when he made that statement by the way? because his initial reaction to the shooting of two of st. louis's finest was through a tweet. i thought that was highly insensitive. but anyway then he drags in at the end that people don't want to be stopped by the police because of their race.

i'm trying to figure out how that fits in with what happened with the shooting of two of st. louis's finest. eric holder on the other hand came out with a statement yesterday or the day before and said that they were damn punks whoever shot the police. i was wondering why he didn't have that sort of statement about mike brown, who just held up a strong arm robbery, anyway where he bullied a convenience store clerk and stole items and then went and tried to disarm a law enforcement officers. he didn't have those words for that action. >> so you asked for those comments were made the president made those comments on "jimmy kimmel live" on that program. i have to ask you. >> totally inappropriate. totally inappropriate venue for that kind of statement. >> he should have addressed it on that program at all when he was asked? >> look that's an entertainment and a semicomedy program. that's not appropriate. i don't know why -- when he talked about mike brown he had a suit on and he was in either the

white house press room or in the east room when he made that comment. but he couldn't put on a suit on after two of st. louis's finest were shot and hit. took sniper fire and deliver his concerns about that incident then. the optics are horrible especially for law enforcement officers who are looking at this. and he goes on an entertainment and a comedy program. i like jimmy kimmel. but it's not the type of venue that this sort of thing should be talked about. >> sow you would have liked to see something more formal. understood. let me ask you this. police shot in the line of duty across this country rose more than 50% in 2014. that's according to the december report from the national law enforcement officer fatality report. i'm wondering if your officers there in milwaukee, officers that you know across the country, are scared when they see numbers like that. >> well not scared but hypervigilance goes up. there's a tipping point.

you can't keep cops in a state of hypervigilance for a long period of time before it starts to have a physical and emotional effect. but that's what we have to do to stay alive. but that piece of data in the face of this lie, this false narrative about the deadly use of force by law enforcement officers against young black males, let's have some balance in this discussion. the environment that a law enforcement officer has to work in is extremely dangerous. we can have these discussions about both of these incidents. but this is a one-sided argument right now. it's a false narrative that cops use an inordinate amount of deadly force against young black males. >> sheriff before i let you go the doj report had two main points. the first point was that the shooting of officer -- by officer darren wilson of mike brown was a justifiable use of

force. and it also found that the hands up don't shoot did not happen in that situation. secondly it found systematic racism among some in the ferguson police department. the president addressed both in those comments to jimmy kimmel. do you not believe that both should be addressed? >> i believe that the report compiled by eric holder was not objective. one of the things he also should have pointed out in there black males have a disproportionate vomit in crime and involvement in crime and violent crime. and disproportionately victimized as well at the hands of other blacks. we can have this discussion about both. >> sheriff david clarke good to have you on the program. thank you very much sir. >> thank you, poppy. joining me now here in new york from one of our new york city police commissioner bernard kerr thanks for being here. you were listening to that interview with me. any response?

>> i understand the sheriff's concerns. on the president's side i think one thing has nothing to do with the other. the abuse of people and all that stuff, i get it. i understand that's been an ongoing issue now for months. but the attempted assassination of two cops? that had nothing to do with anything else. and i think it should have been handled differently. >> you think the president shouldn't have talked about doj report when responding about the officers. >> no. i think he should have focused on the two cops especially for the law enforcement community. there is 700,000 law enforcement officers in this country that's watching what's going on. they need support. they need the benefit of the doubt. they need to know that our government be it the president, state governments, local governments, are going to be out there behind them in the event they have problems. >> to be fair here every comment that i've heard, every time we've heard attorney general eric holder or president obama address the michael brown shooting and the darren wilson

situation before the verdict came down from the grand jury and after has been to say -- has not been to attack law enforcement, right? they have said consistently our law enforcement officers are here to protect us. the majority of them are good upstanding citizens. do you feel like that message has not gone the across enough? >> no, it hasn't gotten across enough. and i fully agree with eric holder's statements on this circumstance. >> calling it heinous, disgusting and cowardly. >> cowardly punks and all that sore stuff. i get it. agree with it. but i think we've been in a position where we've mixed two messages two things too much that we're losing sight of reality. >> i wonder if you think some have said that they believe that the doj report and the comments about it after it came out placed a lot more emphasis on the systematic which is frankly systematic heinous racism it outlines that has happened from

some in the police force in ferguson to a large amount of the community there, but that it focused so much more on that than on the situation of officer darren wilson saying there was not justifiable grounds for him to be -- that he was justified in the shooting of michael brown and that the hands up don't shoot did not take place in that situation. do you believe the doj report unfairly focused on one over the other? >> well i think one thing is much bigger. the systematic racism and all that stuff, that's a much bigger issue. >> right. >> michael brown was one incident, one event. and the reality is all of the protests and all of the civil unrest that went on as a result of michael brown be was basically based on a lie. he didn't have his hands up. he resisted arrest. he tried to take officer's guns. it was all based on a lie. the systematic stuff, if that stuff really happened and if the doj -- >> the investigation found it did happen. >> if the doj report says that that's their finding, then there are some major concerns. >> it's incredibly troubling,

right? >> it should be for anyone. >> for more than half the population in ferguson is african-american. before i let you go, what do you do with the ferguson police department and the community? how do you make this situation better? >> well i think the first thing you have to do is keep the rebel rousers out, keep the race baiters out. >> freedom of speech. freedom to protest. what do you do? >> here's the problem. real community leaders have to be the ones dealing with the police department. it's those people with the police department the real community leaders, they're the ones that can make this work. when you have these outsiders come in and they create all this dissension and unrest then it's never going to heal itself. you need healing. and the only healing is going to come from the city officials, the police department and real community leaders, not the outsiders. >> bernard kerik, thank you very much. appreciate it. good to have you on the program. >> thank you. >> we'll be back in a minute. why are we so committed to keeping

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shasta darlington joins me now with incredible video we want to show you. you'll remember last week we told you about this rescue of a 14-month-old baby in a tragic car accident. she joins me now on set to talk to me about it. this is new video of what we were really dubbing this sort of this miraculous story. >> reporter: exactly. you really get the feeling from this video why we call baby lily the miracle baby. basically it shows you what it's like to be a rescue worker. because you see it from their perspective. the emotional and physical effort they go to keep this baby

alive. let's watch it. >> reporter: new body cam video from one of the spanish fork officers as he rushes to the overturned car. >> what have you got? what have you got? >> reporter: you can hear their desperation as they try to flip the car. they soon discovered 25-year-old lynn jennifer grossbeck dead in the driver seat. but they do find a survivor. they pull a tiny body from the wreckage and run up the hill. >> she's definitely hyper they'rethey are -- hypeh rrthermi c. she was sub murched in the car in the spanish fork river in utah for about 14 hours. she survived hanging upside down

in freezing temperatures in the upper 20s with no food or water. >> if anything had been different she might not have made it. >> reporter: brock royal was the emergency room doctor who saw lily when she was rushed in. >> you can see just how pale she is and how cold and stiff her arm is. >> reporter: four days later, baby lily playing along as her father sings "old mcdonald" in the hospital. the best reward possible for those who fought so hard to save her. >> one of the really amazing things is when the rescue workers started they couldn't feel a heartbeat. so they just kept going and going without really having any security at all that she was going to live. but i should mention we've had some good news since then. we've been in touch with the spanish fork police department. they say lily is out of the hospital. they actually some police went to visit her with her family. they say she's healthy and happy and for the time being living with her aunt and uncle. some good news has come out of

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s. this just in. a number of american aid workers possibly exposed to the deadly ebola virus are on their way right now to the united states for monitoring. the cdc saying those people are

being flown to the u.s. as we speak from africa. joining me on the phone, cnn medical correspondent elizabeth cohen. elizabeth, what do we know at this point? >> reporter: poppy, we know these ten or so folks are headed either to the nih outside of washington, d.c. or to the university of nebraska or to emory university hospital in atlanta. they will not be admitted to these institutions. instead they will be housed in hotels or similar places, and they'll stay there for the 21 days after we start counting from when they were possibly exposed. of course if they get sick they'll be admitted to the hospital. now, some of these folks will quarantine themselves and will not leave their housing. others however, will be leaving their housing, we're told. but again, none of these folks have ebola that we know of. they just at this point have been possibly exposed. and so they want to just make sure they don't get ebola so they'll be very closely monitored. >> i know looking at this cdc

release, elizabeth, it says that these are people who worked alongside an american volunteer health care worker in sierra leone who did test positive for ebola. so i know it's important to remind our viewers that it is very hard to contract ebola. it's not contagious through the air, et cetera. but they're just being extremely cautious because this one person did test positive in sierra leone, an aid worker? >> reporter: right. and so what i've been told is that these ten folks had exposure to this person after he or she started to get sick. and so you can get ebola with exposure. but as you said poppy, it's not easy to get ebola. and we don't know did these people have exposure to his or her bodily fluids or were they just working or living near them? we just don't know. but they're concerned enough about them that they've flown them back to the u.s. watching them very closely and then admitting them if they do start to show symptoms. and poppy, i want to emphasize.

ten is a big number. >> right. >> reporter: ten ace big number. i mean the nih, the patient currently at nih just admitted the colleague of these other folks? this person is the 11th person to be treated for ebola in this country. so ten possible new cases, that's a big number. >> just to be clear, worst case scenario here would be that those ten people somehow did contract ebola which is not likely. but we do have the facilities in this country, here in new york in maryland in nebraska right? to treat all of those people if it were needed. >> reporter: right. the facilities that these folks would be treated with are nih in maryland or emory in atlanta or the university of nebraska in nebraska. and you're absolutely right. the u.s. now does have quite a bit of experience treating people with ebola. and in all three of those institutions have a lot of experience. they have not infected anyone. there are no health care workers

at those three institutions who got ebola. they're the patients for the most part survived. none of their doctors or nurses got sick. it all went as it was supposed to. >> we know that some those patients took an experimental drug called zmac. but at this point am i right in saying there still is no one proven treatment or vaccination for the ebola virus? >> reporter: correct. there's no proven vaccination. and the treatment that these other folks got who have been treated in the u.s. they were given various things. different people got different things. we're still not sure whether those drugs work. they were given those drugs, but we don't know if they survived because of those drugs or if they survived just because they got good what's called supportive care. they were well hydrated. they were well taken care of. that in and of itself could save you from ebola. >> and this reminds us of the urgency and importance in west

africa where now more than 6,000 people have died from the ebola virus. many of them who do not have the care that these people are going to get if needed here in this country. thank you very much elizabeth. appreciate it. we'll bring you more on this of course as we know. also we've been tracking all day the widespread destruction in van in vanuatu after cyclone pam struck the island. >> tell me what you're saying there. >> horrible destruction here. it's just hard to describe and put into words. just so many buildings have lost their roofs. so many buildings have been damaged and the windows ripped out completely. it's just utter just total destruction. there are so many boats that sank on dry land. a scene of trees that have fallen down everywhere. power lines all over roads.

there's no way to get from a to b anywhere. it's just everywhere no war, noter, no power. massive destruction. it's just incredible. >> the images that our viewers are seeing as you and i are speaking michael, if we can keep them up here are images of port villa by far the biggest city in vanuatu with most people live in huts with straw. the infrastructure is nowhere as good as we are seeing. any idea what the conditions for the people are there? >> basically channelled straight south from where we are right through the islands. i don't know if you're showing the cyclone track. but the island of vanuatu are a longer spread. we've got the first part of that intensity of the category 5 and

it's ripped through here. further south what it has done we don't know. local communities down there without obviously they don't have telephone, don't have access. we have no idea about the conditions down there. you can't fly planes in. you can't get planes out. at the moment everybody is trying to clear airports so we can bring planes in to get medical aid and assistance. trying to get life back to normal and assess everything. i think there are only about six confirmed dead at the moment but that number will rise as we start to get more reports back from the islands. >> can i ask about how aid has been coming in? because only small small planes like cessnas can even fly into the main airport there. so i'm assuming a lot of it will have to come by ship and that's going to take awhile. >> you can fly 737s. and there are regular routes of 737s into the airport here. for example, i think the american military had a c 17 here last week on a different

mission. you can definitely fly larger planes in. but a lot of the medical help that we need is obviously doctors that are able to fly into here. and medical workers obviously with materials and tools to rebuild houses. a lot of that will have to be shipped in but having said that, there is a reasonable supply of building materials here. but i imagine things like tarpaulins and plastic and things to cover roofs, as soon as shops open tomorrow i imagine a few shops will open. and those supplies will just be soaked up within minutes, i imagine. >> michael mcclennan, thank you very much for bringing us that first hand account of what it is like on the ground there in vanuatu right now. we appreciate it. a lot more news straight ahead. but first cnn's ones to watch. >> a scouter is someone whoulptor

is someone who draws in space. >> the challenge for me is how do you move all of that power in the best way to make something in reality? >> one of the best-known sculptors working today, anthony gormley, shares his thoughts on the state-of-the-art. and we've enlisted two prominent voices aemn eminent arts critic and the director of london's tate modern museum to select their ones to watch. >> my first reaction to the need for scale as an artist was to go absolutely nano. when i work i really feel like a -- try to be playful. not have thoughts about what is real, what is nice.

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. we're back with the story of a florida man taking the fight of isis into his own hands. army veteran shawn rowe said he's tired of the headlines, the horror coming out of iraq and syria with the isis beheadings and much much more. he's recruiting his fellow veterans to try to go with him overseas to take on isis. he joins me now live from jacksonville florida. also with me jesse rosenfelt, a contributor for the daily beast in istanbul. he just wrote an article about this exact topic. thank you both for being here. shawn you've started this web site to ask veterans to go overseas and try to fight isis. a lot would look at that and say good intentions but incredibly incredibly dangerous. why are you doing this? >> well for three reasons.

like you said before, aye just outraged at what's going on with isis. and secondly i'm frustrated with our leadership's very slow and very weak response. and the catalyst that ultimately motivated me i would say gripped me to launch this web site was when i started reading it was the second article where i read about a veteran going overseas to help out. and his words, why aren't more people going to help? is what really just lit a fire in me. i couldn't even sleep that night. ways working on the web site. and everything's been taking off since there. i've now had several hundred people from all over the country and three other countries, civilians and veterans wanting to go. i'm currently talking to several dozen veterans who are really serious about going. and able and willing to fund themselves over there. >> you know shaun, i understand that. but i think what is really worrisome, look what we've seen isis do to people they've taken prisoner. you're a veteran. you have these skills but you

don't have the backing of the u.s. military the coalition forces. other people that might join in this might not have any of those skills are. you worried about risking lives? >> well i'm screening everyone i talk to. i'm not going to take anyone who's not experienced or qualified. let me clarify that we'll be playing more of a defensive supportive role with the locals against isis. we're not going to be running around playing rambo. >> okay. jesse, you spent time with three young men like sean who are doing this right now on the ground. they're fighting right alongside the kurds trying to help. what stood out to you most about what drives them to do this? >> well it was interesting. this meeting the three young americans, all of them were ex soldiers or ex contractors that had basically joined the peshmerga outside the city of kirkuk on the front lines with isis. what struck me was beyond anything their primary political goal is to fight isis not

necessarily support the kurds, not support any particular faction. but what i also discovered was it's a wide spectrum of people that are going over to join the anti-isis fight. you have people like matthew gardner in australia and who went to join the ypg in syria and support the kurdish fight against isis in kabani. you've got a lot of permercenaries looking to make a business out of this war. then the ex american g.i.s looking to go over and do something. but i have to say that primarily that kind of decision doesn't actually seem like it's addressing the fundamental problems of the sectarian war in iraq. some of these mers narscenaries want to go over and fight with a christian element and add another element into it. others are going into a new war that created this war in the

first place. >> are they worried the young men you're with about what might happen when they come home? >> the americans they spoke with were fairly reassured that they wouldn't be prosecuted when they got back. at least that's what they told me. i know from other countries in the west there have been concerns and there are issues as to what happens when they go back. but with these three americans, they were quite confident that they would be okay. >> before i let you both go sean i want to ask you, your story's been out there. it was in "usa today" as well. have the authorities, anyone from the government contacted you and said look we don't want you to go? >> no they haven't. and i don't know why they would. this is really none of their business. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. i appreciate it. go ahead, really quickly there, jesse. i'll let you respond. >> right.

well i mean i think one thing a lot of these americans that want to go over and fight have to keep in mind that the problems with iraq are not with having enough fighters against isis. it's that the divisions in iraq are making the battle against isis near impossible. divisions between the shia backed militia, iraqi government and the kurds all of these are the result of the iraqi occupation in iraq. these are not things young americans going over to fight are going to be able to fix. it's got to be a political issue that's addressed and unifying people to fight isis on the ground there. >> sean i have to let you respond to that. >> tell that to the families who are being slaughtered that they don't need help. the need is obvious. but we're also going to take medical supplies. i'm talking to numerous combat medics who want to go. like i said we're playing a defensive, supportive role for these people who are just being slaughtered over there. and if people who don't see that need i just think it's crazy. >> sean i do have to say one thing. that is we have heard from the

administration people with such good intentions aid workers going to syria going to iraq who have been taken captive by isis who have been beheaded. we've seen u.s. forces coalition forces go in and try to save them risking their own lives. are you worried about that at all, risking lives even the ones that volunteer in order to save you and other vets if something like this does happen? >> obviously it's dangerous. and there's risks. but it's a risk we're all willing to take. i'm not afraid of dying. >> but it risks other lives if they have to come in and try to rescue you guys. >> they won't be capturing me or my team okay? >> well how do you know? just out of concern. >> we are very well trained. >> i appreciate it very much sean. please take care. be safe. i appreciate you joining us very much. jesse, thank you as well. i do want to have our cnn intelligence and security

analysts and former cia operative bob baer join me now to talk about this. with your perspective and your history in the agency bob, what do you make of what we just heard? >> well a couple of things poppy. i wouldn't be so confident about the u.s. government. there's a thing called the neutrality act which americans aren't supposed to take up arms in another country privately. and you also have the question of permits. the state department actually issues what's called an itar permit for people who want to go work in a foreign country. these guys don't have it. but i think, poppy, what i've seen is this is much more widespread than most people know. i've seen christian groups up there that have hired essentially mercenaries to protect missionaries in kurd stan. i've got ex colleagues in kurd stan helping the kurds. the problem is this is a free for all. you've got the iranians in iraq. you've got the shia death

squads. you've got private groups. you've got the kurds whose intentions aren't just to beat isis but they also want to establish a state up there. it would really serve us well if we had sort of an international policy that was unified on this and got rid of the islamic state through state intervention rather than private. >> bob, what about what sean said? we are very well trained. we can do this. and tell that to the families who have lost their loved ones. you can see where he's coming from and his intentions and that he wants to help. do you worry at the same time though? >> i definitely worry. i mean last week there was a canadian special forces officer who was killed i believe that was last week was coming back in patrol in kurdistan. clearly protected by helicopters and the rest of it. the kurds mistakenly opened up fire on his unit and killed them. kurdistan is a wide open place. i spent years up there. it's not a safe place for

anybody. and you've got the islamic state who can infiltrate people or overrun kurdish positions. and it would be terrible if an american were caught at this point. because the worst would come. >> bob baer thanks very much. quick break. we're back in a minute. nexpected. ha-ha! shall we dine? [ chuckle ] you wouldn't expect an insurance company to show you their rates and their competitors' rates but that's precisely what we do. going up! nope, coming down. and if you switch to progressive today you could save an average of over 500 bucks. stop it. so call me today at the number below. or is it above? dismount! oh, and he sticks the landing! you pay for your data every month. so why does your carrier take back what you don't use? it's your data! all your unused data and if you switch now,

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letter to iran's leaders are said to have by some possibly violated the logan act. this is a measure that dates all the way back to 1799. so what exactly is the logan act? tom foreman explains. >> reporter: a new york paper is calling some republicans traitors. >> and this is serious stuff! those republicans are defending their actions. >> this is ultimately about stopping iran from getting a nuclear weapon. >> reporter: and all over d.c. critics are talk about the logan act. what on earth is the logan act? well it is a relic of history, a law that grew out of a spat between the united states and france way back in the late 1700s. cue the fife music. >> president john adams federalist party wanted war but a pennsylvania doctor named george logan traveled to france and brokered a deal to stop it. the federalists were furious and

passed the logan act to make such freelance diplomacy punishable by fines and prison. and accusations of violations have appeared ever since. over richard nixon's dealings with vietnam, jesse jackson's talks with russia nancy pelosi's 2007 trip to syria, and not a single case has ever amounted to anything. still on a white house web site tens of thousands of people have signed a petition for an investigation, convinced republicans are now illegally interfering with foreign policy by sending a letter to iran's leadership. but they probably should not expect much. after all, in 2008 candidate barack obama chatted with the the iraqis. and guess what.srepublicans hollered about? yeah the logan act. tom foreman, cnn, washington. >> let's bring in david gergen a former advise for four u.s. presidents. i want to begin with what we just saw from tom foreman, what logan act is.

you hear secretary of state john kerry calling this letter from republicans an interference calling it unprecedented. but nancy pelosi ignored the white house, right, when she traveled to syria for talks when she was house speaker in 2007. what's your take on both sides? >> i think this is -- the logan act is just not something that's going to be invoked in this case. over 200 years nobody's ever been prosecuted. they're not going to be prosecuted here. what i do think is it enables people on the left to paint the republicans as even more far right and more dangerous than the public may already perceive. it's more political than anything else. i think what the republican letter -- the republican letter is not illegal. what it is in retrospect to even many republicans is stupid. and it has, i think, it's backfired on the republicans. and frankly, poppy, it's also going to have an impact on the elections coming up 2016 american elections.

and that is this is -- iran is almost inevitably now going to be a central issue in the elections. and the republican candidate is going to be pushed hard by his own party or her own party to go to a hard line position on iran. so this is going to have ripple effects. but i don't think it's going to have any criminal investigation. >> do you think that this letter could scuttle the negotiations with the deal deadline at the end of this month? >> it may be invoked by at least one of the parties. we've seen the ayatollah, the supreme leader of iran shake his fist now about the letter and say how unreliable the americans are. but there are more serious issues right now and differences in these closing days. secretary kerry is just setting out this weekend to go back to the negotiations in europe. and there are some serious obstacles that are understood on both sides, that they haven't agreed on. it's not just the number of centrifuges but importantly now there are questions about

inspections. questions about how long this agreement would last. so i think they've got some hard bargaining to do. and there's a real possibility that the negotiators themselves will be unable to reach agreement. and it's possible at the end of that when the people look back are going to say well it was the republican letter had a lot to do with it. but it's also clear there are serious substantive differences between the parties. >> right. no question the president has said no deal is better than a bad deal. i do want to get your take on the hillary clinton news conference this week. >> sure. >> her explanation for setting up her own private e-mail server while she was secretary of state and using exclusively her own e-mail address and not government e-mail. you just wrote an op ed on cnn.com about this. you said that actually is oddly related to the gop letter to iran. what do you mean? >> well in both cases i think the republicans have legitimate concerns about where the iran deal is going. i believe having worked for the

clip the clip clintons back in the 90s she had legitimate concerns about the security of her e-mails. there are lots of people who would like to crack into her e-mails. i'm not terribly surprised they went to the protective service. but in both cases, both republicans and hillary herself, took the wrong action. they made mistakes in what they then did about their concerns. and if the republicans had sent their letter to the president of the united states we wouldn't have this controversy. because they sent it to the iranian leadership. in hillary's case if she had set up her private system but then linked it up immediately with the state department so that she was obeying all the protocols and understandings of how this was to be done she wouldn't have this controversy on her hands. and i just want to say one last thing. the story continues surprisingly because we now learn that what she said was that her e-mails were going into an automatically going to other people in the government. it turns out the state department had a sloppy system. they don't know what went where. they don't have the records

themselves to sustain that claim. >> wow. david gergen great to have you on as always. thanks so much. stay with us. we're back. >> poppy, you're terrific. thank you. bye.

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hi everyone. 5:00 eastern. you're in the cnn news room. i'm poppy harlow joining you from new york. this just into us here at cnn. several american aid workers possibly exposed to the deadly ebola virus. they are on a plane right now on their way back to the united states from africa. the c dc says that they're being flown on of course charter planes. they're coming here from sierra leone. this comes one day after another american aid worker already diagnosed with the ebola virus arrived in the u.s. for treatment. that brings the total number of americans treated for ebola up to 11. joining me on the phone our senior medical course correspondent elizabeth cohen. >> reporter: we know these folks will be flown to three different places. they'll be flown to atlanta to be near emory university to

maryland to be near the national institutes of health clinical center or to nebraska to be near the university of nebraska. you notice i said near. they will not be admitted to these places. they will actually be staying in hotels or some other kind of housing. because they're not sick right now. they'll be watched, they'll be closely monitored. if they do get sick they'll be admitted. some of these folks, we're told are self-quarantining. they are going to keep themselves in the hotel or wherever they're staying. others though will not be. they've decided that they want to be able to be out and about in the community. again, none of these people are sick. and you can't give someone ebola unless you're sick. which i think is a point they know you and i emphasized often when we were both talking about ebola in the fall emphasized it again. you can't get ebola from someone unless that person is sick. so far as far as we know none of these people are sick yet. >> elizabeth, can you put the number ten in context for us in

terms of these ten people in the air right now being flown for observation and possible treatment? it just seems pretty big. >> reporter: poppy, indeed it is a big number. when you consider that in this country 11 people have been treated with ebola. so this is ten more who might possibly have ebola. so ten people treated with ebola here in the united states since august. most of them treated in nebraska or at the nih or at emory. and i want to be very clear with this. ebola has an incredibly high mortality rate in africa. in this country it hasn't. out of those 11 only two of them died. and those two both of their cases were caught quite late. in this country we have a very good track record of saving people with ebola. and for the most part with the glaring exception of presbyterian hospital in texas, we have an excellent track record really a perfect track record of treating people and making sure the doctors and nurses don't also get the ebola. again with the exception of

presbyterian in texas. >> elizabeth cohen, our senior medical correspondent. thank you. stand by as i bring in dr. alexander garza the associate dean of public health practice in -- >> how are you? >> i'm well thank you. do you agree with elizabeth that this number ten seems like a lot? if so i'm wondering if you have any inclination as to why so many are being flown here for monitoring. >> sure. well it certainly is the largest amount of americans that have been evacuated from west africa from people that have been exposed to the virus. now, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are high risk patients. i believe or my impression of this is out of the abundance of caution that these people were evacuated. because this patient that just came over from the nih wasn't -- they were sick when they came over. and they didn't know that this patient had ebola. so they had some exposure to the

virus. and so i think just out of the abundance of caution they're going to bring these people back keep an eye on them make sure that they don't get ill. and if they do that they can receive the proper treatment. >> in terms of what we know about how hard it is for someone to contract ebola, right? it's not transmitted through the air. it's bodily fluids et cetera. how confident are you that these people are just being monitored out of an abundance of caution? i know we're still waiting on a lot of details. or are you concerned that indeed these ten people may have contracted ebola? >> right. so one of the big question marks is what was their exposure status. and so the cdc had put out guidelines of course on how to take care of isolation and quarantine and all these things. but it was really dependent upon exposure status. so that's one of the things that we don't really know right now is what sort of exposure these

ten people had to the index patient, the person that's being treated at nih. so if there there was exposure to bodily fluids without personal protective equipment that's one thing. if there was we were just working around this person but didn't have exposure then that's another thing. and so there's a lot of factors that go into how worried should we be about these people how close of an eye should we keep on them. and all those other things that go into developing how close of an eye we should keep on these folks. >> doctor thank you very much. we appreciate it. of course we'll keep our viewers updated as we learn more about this. again those ten americans being flown right now from sierra leone to the u.s. for monitoring for possible ebola exposure. thank you. also now, this very disturbing story coming to us from the "new york times." it details how al qaeda may have filled its pockets with money from the u.s. government handed to them by the bag full. this is what the times is reporting, that money from the

cia was paid to the government of afghanistan who then used that money to pay al qaeda ransom. it is no secret that u.s. dollars have been flowing into afghanistan for years. money earmarked for government use, internal projects scholarships rebuilding after years of war. but according to this "new york times" report in 2010 afghan officials struck a deal to free an afghan diplomat being held hostage by al qaeda but the price was steep. $5 million. and senior security officials were scrambling to come up with that money. that is when according to the times, afghan officials turned those bags of cash cash from the cia, over to al qaeda and the group's then leader osama bin laden. bob baer spent most of his career with the cia in that part of the world. bob, again this is all "new york times" reporting. according to them the cia has not responded yet. we have not heard back from the cia about this. does this surprise you at all?

>> poppy, no. i tell you the way this works. the white house comes to the central intelligence agency and says listen we have to support the afghan government karzai in particular. >> right. >> and the cia says, okay, we will. whatever amount of money you want it's appropriated by congress. and the cia also informs the white house there's no way we can keep track of this money. karzai can spend it any way he wants. he can go into the drug business he can pay ransom he can give the money to al qaeda, he can do anything he wants. that is very clear to the white house. and the white house inevitably i've seen this over and over again over the years, says do it we need to support this guy, prop it up. yes, we will never get accountings from them. and so that this money, $5 million, ended up with al qaeda and essentially supported it for a good period of time does not surprise me. this is the problem with covert action. it's neither covert nor action. and the money always gets misspent in one way or another. it's not like the cia will be

surprised by this. just the unfortunate way things work in that part of the world. >> well you have to weigh the benefits and the risks, right? so that's clearly the calculation that is done here. the "new york times" article even outlines. look unforeseen and not something that the cia would want to happen to have this money go into the hands of terrorists. but at the same time knowing that they needed to prop up and assist the government there. should this shedding light on something like this change at all the way things are done on this front? >> poppy, it will never change it. this is a messy part of the world, especially afghanistan, where corruption is sort of cheerful and open there. and when we invaded in october 2001 we went in with good intentions. at the same time we all knew that this was afghanistan is a mess and there was no way to control it. and we've been in there before in the 80s. same way with pakistan.

and go right across the middle east including iraq now. and you just can't control the money. and in no sense should the cia be blamed for sloppy accounting. i've just been in the middle east things before. and i've told the white house myself that we can't control this money. yes, we will spend it if you want us to. but where it ends up we can't tell you. >> all right. bob baer thanks very much for that analysis. we appreciate it. we do hear back from the cia on that we will let you know. coming up new information about u.s. policies. we were just talking about u.s. policy in afghanistan. this concerns the number of troops there. president obama may be rethinking his plan for a steep drawdown of troops by the end of this year. we'll have a live report from the white house next. the lexus command performance sales event has begun. command track-tested precision with the fastest-growing automotive luxury brand on the road. including the exhilarating is. powerful gs. and first-ever rc coupe. with more new models than ever there's never been a better time

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erin on this? >> reporter: poppy, this is coming at the request of afghan president ganni. he and prose talked earlier this week via teleconference. there are now 10,000 u.s. troops there and the plan has been to reduce it to a 5500 at the end of the year. the secretary of defense said he may advise the president to review the drawdown because it may not be appropriate for u.s. forces to step back yet and the u.s. government is enjoying better relations with the new afghani government. according to general john campbell the commanding of u.s. forces in afghanistan, the senior administration official says that he has developed recommendations to enhance the training advising and assisting of the afghan national security forces the maintenance of appropriate counterterrorism capabilities and ways to manage the retrograde in a way that

prioritizing force protection for our troops. these discussions remain ongoing and no decisions have yet been made." but poppy generally when the administration begins to contemplate a move like this they will float it fwirs this kind of trial balloon and get the initial scuttle out of the way before an official announcement is made. >> here's the thing i'm wondering, erin. to the president this administration has come under a lot of criticism by some who have seen isis expand in iraq and have said this wouldn't be happening if more u.s. troops had stayed. the administration does not agree with that. but do you think this is at all a response to that? >> reporter: poppy, i think that is certainly the case. as we have been seeing lawmakers debate this for the past several months they're saying this very thing, that they don't want to see conditions happen like it happened in afghanistan and in iraq. so i think that's certainly weighing into this decision. >> all right, erin mcpike at the white house for us. thank you, erin. james williams joins me now, a retired u.s. major general. he commanded a marine combat division in iraq. general williams your reaction

to this headline that the administration may not reduce troops from 10,000 to 5500 on the timeline that was expected. is that right move change strategy here? >> absolutely. poppy, i think this is a very wise decision on the administration's part. i think with the advent of ash carter as the new secretary of defense, with the assessment of general campbell and probably with general austin the commander of central command, it made an assessment. plus the request from the president of afghanistan, to have this delay probably makes great sense. i mean ultimately you're dealing with a government that is not very strong. you're still trying to develop the forces to shore up what they need to do internally. and between all the tribal issues that you typically have in this region it's very important that we create some level of stability. i mean let's face it.

if we don't stabilize afghanistan, the potential for afghanistan to devolve and become something like syria and iraq is becoming to a degree what the isil challenge, that i think is part of the hopefully the wisdom of this decision. >> i just wonder if you think that it should be floated publicly like this as erin just said for sort of to take the temperature of public and official reaction to a move like this? i mean shouldn't this be a decision that is decided by the administration by the generals on the ground? >> oh, absolutely. and i think part of this is a political decision. but ultimately the decision being political in its nature requires sort of an analysis by what everybody thinks whether it's in congress whether our allies in europe as well as our allies in the middle east. i think without a doubt this is

a good moral decision in terms of judgment stabilizing the force, leaving the troops there. they're in a training and advising role which is a good role at this point. but you also have to protect the troops that are there. i mean otherwise we would be remiss in our responsibilities to do so. >> so here's the thing. what do you say to the critics that say for how long? this cannot be endless. we've seen others fail in afghanistan over decades. how long can we keep this up? what do you say to them? >> well poppy, it's actually centuries. we've had six empires go through the region. and the question is how long do we want to stay in how much money do we want to burn? i think that's a legitimate question. but a lot of that depends on the vision of the politicians. certainly the generals know what has to be done. and ultimately it's up to congress since congress maintains and supports the

military financially to ensure that whatever we're going to do is meaningful not only in the region but for our national security but also for the stability of our allies in the region. >> general williams thank you for your service to this country. thank you for joining me to talk about this headline just into us here at cnn. >> my pleasure. thank you. unrest continues in ferguson. this is still a town that is on the edge. and a manhunt is continuing for whoever shot two police officers on wednesday night. we'll talk about that. also though, coming up. when you look at exercising we all have to do it. but maybe doing it with your partner, that might just be the motivation that you need to get fit. here's our dr. sanjay gupta. >> reporter: how important is this to do together? >> accountability is huge. and i feel like we would hold each other accountable. we have the same goal.

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in ferguson missouri police are working around the clock, hoping to identify who shot two of their own officers during a wednesday night protest.

reward for any information, that amount now sits at $10,000. that number could grow as more people donate. investigators say so far they have come up short in this manhunt. they are pursuing several leads, though. also this hour mayor james knolls meeting with black business owners right in ferguson. this a day after he says he will not be stepping down. let's discuss joining me now former new york city police commissioner bernard kerik and fbi assistant director and law enforcement analyst tom fuentes. bernard to you first, when you look at this a lot of people are saying how could a shot go that far that accurately to these officers. do you think this was well planned, executed or moran com spur of the moment? >> i think it's premature to tell whether it's random or spur of the moment. it was 125 yards, they're estimating. according to the initial information, the rounds fired

were out of a handgun. that's a football field and a quarter. >> right. >> that's a long way. but they had a group of officers all combined in one area. >> so you're saying maybe not to hit one specific or two specific officers but to hit officers in general. >> their intent was to hit officers. >> police. >> hit police. >> tom fuentes, part of this investigation what kind of gun was used. you walked the scene. you were in ferguson yesterday. what's your take? >> my take is bernie is exactly right, that police officers don't worry about the bullet with their name on it they worry about the thousands that are addressed to whom it may concern. and that's probably what you have here. in talking to the local reporter and others that were at scene, they said that shortly before the shooting happened the police cleared the protesters off the the street and they were moved across the street to two separate parking lots. from the top of the hill when you look down you see that

whoever shot had a clear shot at the police. there would have been no protesters in the way. so it didn't require too much elevation to be shooting straight at the police. >> bernard, you say looking at this you think president obama should have offered more support to law enforcement right after this happened. what would you have liked to have seen? >> well i just think in the aftermath of eric garner in the aftermath of michael brown, the president came out directly pertaining to those incidents. in this case it wasn't the case. and he's basically involved already. because he involved -- it's a national level thing that got involved in a local community. i just think the law enforcement community in general across the country has to know that they have the support of the president, they have the support of the state leaders and the local leaders. >> you did hear attorney general -- first of all the

president did condemn this immediately. >> absolutely. >> on those comments on jimmy kimmel this week. eric holder attorney general calling it heinous, damn punks whoever did this. >> he's right. >> you would have liked something more formal from the president, possibly at the white house just making very clear? >> i don't think it's just me. i think it's across the board. the law enforcement community in general. they have to be supported. they have to feel supported. in many cases i don't think that's the case. >> tom, what is your take? do you have an opinion on that front? >> no i agree with that. i'd like to add that there's been no real analysis given to the report that exonerates officer wilson. and i think that's a huge tragedy. we had that story go out hands up don't shoot. all these witnesses were going to the media and saying they saw him trying to surrender. and a meticulous extensive, diligent investigation by the fbi determined that every one of those witnesses recanted their story or said they didn't even see it at all and more or less

made that up. and later when they were under oath it turns out and on page eight of that report if you read it it says there were no credible witnesses that the surrender motion was ever happened. and then in turn it said there are numerous credible witnesses that said that michael brown was going towards officer wilson on the street when wilson made his final defensive shot that resulted in the killing of michael brown. now, there's been no coverage on that. and by the attorney general koe mingling commingling the racist report about the practices of ferguson and combining that at the same time the report on darren wilson basically got brushed off and blown over. and i think that's a real tragedy here. because what happened is that narrative hands up don't shoot michael brown was murdered by the police officer, justice means wilson needs to be in handcuffs and go to prison. that's all based on a false narrative that never happened.

and the attorney general himself says that the report on officer wilson is correct and people should accept that that all of the things that were previously reported about him murdering michael brown were not true and didn't happen. >> and that report also as you said right at the same time the doj report outlined systematic racism within some in the ferguson police department as well. >> that's right. when you go back and look at this all those protests so-called peaceful protests that led into damage and devastation and chaos and gunfire was based on a lie. >> well the protests were also driven by what the doj found to be horrendous racist actions by some in the police department. >> but that's not what started it. >> let's not forget it. >> that's not what started. it's a piece of >> it you know a lot of the protesters most were peaceful many of them saying look we're not just protesting this

shooting we're also protesting what we've been living under. so understood on both fronts. i wish we had a lot more time to discuss it. understood that has not been the headline that has been coming as tom fuentes just pointed out from the doj report. thank you both gentlemen. we've got to go. back in a moment. >> thank you, poppy.

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two hours from now on cnn an exclusive look into the life of britain's royal family.

prince charles opening up about his marriage to camilla and how she has really been defined by the public. >> you can imagine it is a real challenge. but she's i think been brilliant in the way she's tackled these things. >> well our royal correspondent max foster got this special exclusive access to charles and camilla at their home. he joins me now from london to talk about it. it is a fascinating report. and they really never speak. so i'm interested in why they chose to speak to the media now. >> reporter: i think it's been ten years since the marriage. and when they did get married camilla was incredibly unpopular. i think particularly actually in the united states. they're sort of aware of that. and they're heading to the u.s. next week. she's up against diana. she was the other woman against diana. she broke up that marriage diana said. so so many people looked up to diana as the biggest star in the world. but over the last ten years,

camilla has really sort of tried to just be herself. and actually when you meet her she's very charming very charismatic. doesn't always come across on tv. i think the strategy has been to allow her to get on with the things she enjoys doing. people get to know her. they get to like her. and actually british people according to polls, are very much warmed towards her. it will be interesting to see whether americans feel the same way. >> i know that he also spoke about being a grandparent. >> reporter: he did a bit. he's very excited about the imminent arrival of another grandchild. grandchild number two after prince george of course. he enjoys getting on his knees and sort of getting down with young kids. he likes having them around he said. there's been some reporting here that he doesn't see enough of prince george. and the middletons see a lot of prince george. when i spoke to him there's no sense of that at all. they seem very close. >> and very quickly before i let you go next week they'll be here in the united states? >> reporter: they will be. they'll be there from tuesday starting off in washington, d.c.

at the white house meeting president obama. very busy four days. and are going to go to kentucky as well. >> sounds like a good trip. max foster thank you very much. you're not going to want to miss max's special later tonight, special rare access to charles and camilla. 7:30 eastern right here only on cnn. quick break. we're back in a moment.

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police in ferguson missouri have raised the reward money for

any information leading to the arrest of whoever shot two police officers. it now sits at $10,000, and investigators are following up on what they describe as several leads in this case. meanwhile, the mayor of ferguson one of the only city officials still at his post he has said he will not be stepping down. let's talk about all of this with cnn political commentators ben ferguson and mark lamont hill. guys thank you for joining me. i appreciate it. in the wake of the department of justice report the ferguson police chief, city manager, top court clerk, two police officers out. and yet you have these two officers attacked. they were attempting to murder these officers overnight on wednesday. and i wonder ben, what your reaction is whether the feds should do more to step in here. >> i think they have to now especially. because there are many people involved now that they want dead police officers. this was an assassination attempt. they didn't care which officer that they killed. they didn't care if they were on

the police force in ferguson or from surrounding areas helping out. and i think the federal government should step in here in a major way to help protect those. i also think the amount of money that they've raised for tips and leads should be much higher. when you have two police officers i'm sure they wish there would have been more that would have been hit. i wish this amount of money would be much higher. the federal government should step in here and put in a serious amount of change so that anyone that knows about where this shooter is or shooters will immediately give them up. that's something that the police should know that the government is going to have their back on. >> so i want you both to listen to part of what president obama said after the shooting. it was during his appearance on jimmy kimmel thrive"jimmy kimmel live" this week. listen. >> what had been happening in ferguson was oppressive and objectionable and was worthy of protest. but there was no excuse for criminal acts. and whoever fired those shots

shouldn't detract from the issue, they're criminals. they need to be arrested. and then what we need to do is to make sure that like-minded, good-spirited people on both sides, law enforcement who have a terrifically tough job, and people who understandably don't want to be stopped and harassed just because of their race that we're able to work together to try to come up with some good answers. >> marc i've had some guests on this show tonight say look that was not the right place for the president to address it. they wanted to see a more formal setting, possibly the white house. and also say he shouldn't have also in that answer talked about the findings of the doj report that found horrific racism among some in that police department in ferguson. do you think that he should have simply spoken about the fact that this is a heinous attack on two police officers? >> no. i think the president had a right to speak about and a responsibility in fact to speak about all of those things. the two officers being shot doesn't take away from the fact

that a considerable set of events has happened in ferguson before the police officers were shot that also is worthy of our investigation. and also demands justice. and if we just focus on those two shooters we actually play into the hands of those two shooters right? we'd only be talking about them instead of the extraordinary amount of work the extraordinary amount of effort the extraordinary amount of principled protests and righteous rage that has come out of ferguson. and lastly i find it incredibly fascinating when people want the president to talk. when michael brown was shot in ferguson people said the president should stay out until we have an investigation, until we have answers, more information. all of a sudden when the police officers are shot we want president obama to speak out and say something. we want to get into the minds of the shooters and what their intentions were even though we don't know anything yet. this was an awful shooting. it shouldn't have happened. the president has a responsibility to speak to both of them. >> the reason why people had a problem when it comes out about michael brown is because he's speaking on behalf and giving into this idea that the police officer automatically did

something wrong. giving into this idea that -- >> he never said that. >> let me finish. when it actually did not happen. >> that's not true though. >> no. no. this is the point. the principal point is this. the president anytime that there is something involved in the local community that deals with race and he sees an opportunity to jump in there, he does it. but he's timid and calm and also gives to the people that are going after these police officers we know what happened. you had police officers that were targeted to be assassinated. that is when the president should speak out and should say that that is a problem instantly. >> ben, why do you call it timid? >> i just want to know why ben you call it a timid and calm response. the president condemned what happened to the officers. attorney general eric holder called it heinous, called them damn punks. >> i liked eric holder's approach it was bold and blunt. when the president is also talking about the report in ferguson at the same time i don't think you mix the two. i think the president should be able to come out and be very

angry when a police officer is -- the attempted assassination of a police officer. and there shouldn't be any issues about well, also the report said this. you don't assassinate police officers in america. >> the president did before those remarks tweet exactly that condemning this right away. >> that's what i don't understand. i don't know what ben wants to hear from the president and when he wants to hear it. whatever he hears the opposite seems to come into his brain here. first of all, ben says the president essentially said what the police officers did in ferguson was wrong. there is not one piece of evidence there's not one transcript not one sound bite there's not one news clip there's not one presser. there's nothing where the president said that what the police officers did in ferguson was wrong. hey, i wish he had said something more stern. but he said nothing. let me finish ben. [ overlapping speakers ] >> the attorney general of the united states of america takes the cues from the white house to go out there and investigate to

see if race was involved hand up don't shoot never happened. >> ben, investigating hands up don't shoot with eric holder is different than saying the president stood up and said that the officers did something wrong. hi didn't say that. that's simply factually untrue. you also said that the president sat there and somehow didn't say anything about against the shooters. again he tweeted it out, he spoke on national television about it. again it's untrue. [ overlapping speakers ] >> guys stay with me. i'm going to cut you off here. stay with me. guys stay with me. quick break. on the other side we're going to talk about another very important story that unfolded this week fraternity members expelled after a recording shows them saying disgusting racist things. we'll talk about it next.

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a nine-second video anonymously sent to the student newspaper. yeah. it is horrific. you can't even believe this happened right? in the days to follow the story has snowballed to a story about racism free speech in this country. two sigma alpha epsilon members

at the university of oklahoma have been expelled over the video. investigators are looking into other chapters as well. on friday the oklahoma chapter retained high-profile attorney steven jones. he is best known for defending oklahoma city bomber timothy mcveigh. joining me again, cnn political commentators ben ferguson and mark lamont hill. ben, when you look at this o.u. president david bourn took swift action saying they have no place at this university ever. now you see the fraternity hiring a high-profile attorney. what does that say to you about zero-tolerance policy and what sort of argument do you think could be made on their behalf if indeed, that's the route they're going? all we know is he's been retain. >> first of all it shows how tone deaf the alumni and the fraternity members that are a part of this are. you don't go hire an attorney in my opinion where he's known for defending timothy mcveigh which is the oklahoma city bomber when you're in oklahoma. first of all, it just shows you have no taste or class by doing that. second of all, you have to know just to walk away and let things

calm down a little bit instead of acting like there's some injustice done against you. if you kicked everybody out of school on that bus, by all means grab an attorney at that point because you can't say everyone on that bus is doing something wrong. but they only kicked out two students. i think the president of the university made it clear he was going to do an investigation and those that were leading this and maybe others and he took swift action and should be applauded for it. >> i think it's interesting, right, because this video somehow got from that bus into the hands of the newspaper. someone on that bus wanted this to get out there. mark what's your take? >> every once in a while, ben's right. i think the president did the right thing. and i think reason he didn't expel all the students is because you couldn't see everyone's mouth moving on the bus. some kid could conceivably, plausibly say i didn't want to do it i was the kid who

submitted the tape. but honestly i think everyone on that bus who did the chanting should be involved in this. i'm aware of the first amendment issues attached and i tepally try to protect those, but on college campuses public universities there is a right to go to school without having a hostile environment and without feeling safe. >> we heard from some of the student leaders there in a group called unheard saying we've been dealing with racism before this. this is not the first time. my team was just telling me you were both in fraternities. and, you know, when things like this happen it is often -- people can be swift to paint entire organizations with, you know one brush. do you agree, ben? >> yeah absolutely. when i came back in a fraternity that i was in they'd been kicked off campus five years before and they changed -- we changed the entire culture, and that was part -- we were drastically different. but they made it clear when there was a hazing issue five years before they were not going to let our fraternity back on campus until anyone that could be around it had graduated or

was long gone from the university. and i think that's what the o.u. president was trying to do at the bare minimum. and i think that's a step in the right direction because you have to have everyone around this group that was there completely gone from that university before you can even think about letting them back on. >> mark before we go quickly, what do you do about the bigger problem, some of those students at o.u. said this isn't the first time we've been dealing with racracism? >> there's the point. we don't want to make it seem like sae are outliers or this chant was. we have to talk about the racism on college campuses, the micro and macro aggressions stumts have to deal with. this is a bad circumstance. and the hole campus has to come together. we can't feel bad about ourselves. >> thank you, gentlemen, both. important discussions. more news ahead. the lexus command performance sales event has begun. command track-tested precision with the fastest-growing automotive

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