tv CNN Newsroom With Fredricka Whitfield CNN April 16, 2016 9:00am-10:01am PDT
bowl. it makes ted cruz look like establishment goon. he will do well going forward and takes away from the spotlight from the fact he had two terrible weeks of campaigning. >> we will leave it there. ford o'connell, jeffrey lord. thanks, gentlemen. >> thanks. there's more, stay with us. coming up at the top of the hour, donald trump is holding a live rally in syracuse, new york. we will bring you that event as it happens. welcome again. this is cnn newsroom. i am fredricka whitfield. the battle for delegates taking place in two states on opposite sides of the country. in new york, donald trump is holding a rally at any moment, speaking to the crowd there. he is expected to win big in his home state, that's what his camp is hoping when new yorkers go to the polls in three days.
then there's wyoming. ted cruz will be speaking to republican leaders there. cruz expecting a sweep of delegates in that state as party goers have a convention in casper, wyoming. it is a state where donald trump once again decided not to show up at all, and is once again getting outmaneuvered perhaps for delegates there. also at this hour, we are awaiting the return of bernie sanders to new york. the democratic candidate returning from his rather unexpected impromptu meeting with the pope at the vatican. we have a team of correspondents covering all of this. let's begin with our political coverage with chris frates at the trump rally set to take place at any moment in syracuse, new york. chris, set the stage for us. what's expected? >> reporter: yeah, fred, we are getting ready to hear from donald trump in syracus. see if he continues to gripe about the gop nomination process. he has been hitting the idea of state conventions hard saying it is part of a rigged system,
there should be primaries and caucuses and not state conventions where party insiders go to choose delegates. we talked to some trump supporters who tend to agree with donald trump saying it should be up for a vote. we also talked to other trump supporters who say they thought maybe donald trump wasn't quite prepared to play the game. >> well, i think the system has been this way before trump got in. perhaps he doesn't have a big enough ground game somehow and it passed him. perhaps people aren't voting for who they want to vote for. as much as he shouldn't complain too much about it, again, this is another thing that needs major changes. >> the system has been in place a long time, right? maybe he should have been a little more prepared for that. >> reporter: the republican national committee says the rules have been in place for months, candidates have known about it. the process was the same process
that nominated abraham lincoln in 1960. the party says there should be no surprises. ted cruz did well in colorado. he really took all of the delegates away from donald trump. expected to do the same in wyoming today. he is in wyoming today, not here in new york. that's a surprise because donald trump is doing well here in the empire state. this is home for donald trump. he is leading everybody by double digits. ted cruz is in third place with 16%. and "the wall street journal poll, we talked to supporters that said they're excited about donald trump because he is bringing that business sensiblity and found a market in the political marketplace. that was the voice for the voiceless and the silent majority. take a listen. >> the silent majority are silent because we are working, we are beaten down and retired. we don't have a voice too often. what he has done is service, he
has given us a voice. >> that supporter saying he took a day off work to be here. people are looking forward to hearing trump's voice, he is saying what they can't say. >> it is great to hear from people in the audience, prior to whatever donald trump's message is today to hear from them as to why they're supporting him and to say they're not excusing him for not knowing the rules, he should have known it early on, yet that is not in any way taking the shine off their support for him. great to hear. can't wait to hear from more people. thanks so much. chris frates, appreciate that. moving west to wyoming where rival ted cruz is poised to pick up most of the delegates in that state's republican convention, the texas senator picked up nine delegates in wyoming caucuses last month with donald trump and marco rubio getting one. cruz is expected to get most if not all of the final 14
delegates from wyoming, up for grabs today, get to cnn's ana cabrera. cruz is expected to speak at the wyoming convention at any moment. you were there in colorado when he did the same thing, and walked away majority of the support. is that the key to his success? >> reporter: probably not the key to his success but certainly helps with the momentum he already has in this state, and the trump campaign nowhere to be seen in part because they don't think it would make a difference for them. it all has to do with the system wyoming uses to elect delegates. again, this is a state where they elect their delegates at county and state conventions, instead of through an open primary or national caucus process. it is the same system that donald trump has been criticizing, a system he has struggled to succeed in, whereas ted cruz has said he is well organized, he really did his homework, they both play by the same rules, yet this system seems to be working for him.
i can tell you talking to folks here at this convention, definitely cruz supporters outnumber trump supporters. but we caught up with both. i want you to listen. looks like ted cruz has your vote. >> yes. >> why? >> he is a constitutional conservative, the only true conservative in the race. >> you're supporting trump. tell me why. >> i think united states is ready for a change. i think the system has been hijacked way too long. i never liked the idea of one person deciding, you know, 1500 people's vote. it never rubs me right. it always bothered me. one man, one vote. >> reporter: cruz definitely has the momentum as you mention, he has already picked up the majority of the delegates who have already been elected in this state. 14 more to be elected today. ted cruz is set to speak in the next half hour, fred.
>> all right. thank you so much there in casper wyoming. we will check back. to the democratic side, senator bernie sanders campaigning full speed ahead in new york. he will be in brooklyn today after spending less than 48 hours at the vatican. we expect him to touch down sometime this midday. we learned this morning in fact that sanders had an impromptu meeting with pope francis before he left rome. sanders released his tax return last night as promised at cnn's democratic debate, bernie and jane sanders earned nearly $206,000, paid about 28,000 in federal taxes. let's talk about this with cnn political commentator mark lamont highway and na meek ee cons. a bernie sanders supporter. good to see you both. >> good to be here. >> sanders' income is different from hillary clinton's but everyone knew that before the
tax returns were released. we're talking about bernie and jane sanders together with this just over $200,000, bill and hillary clinton bringing in $28 million in 2014. how does that disparity register with voters or does it underscore something people already knew. >> i think a lot of people know it, but when you see that number, it hits you. bernie and jane sanders are a reflection of that people's campaign. bernie sanders is fueled off $27 donations. he uses people like me, an average person, unpaid, representing the people. hillary clinton on the other hand is someone that made $11 million last year off wall street speeches in one year. hillary clinton is someone that uses surrogates that are elected officials that are also not really, a lot of them don't have
high approval ratings in new york. hillary clinton is relying on superdelegates. one superdelegate equals 10,000 voters. it is a tale of two different campaigns and tale of a split in the democratic party. i think the establishment has been avoiding a lot of what's happening, and the fact that so many democrats are leaving the party and becoming independents, the fact they haven't been recruiting young people, that they have close primaries in a democratic state like new york where it hurts people that are young because they move every year. where there are 15 registration deadlines. the democrats aren't making it easy for people to vote but want to count on their vote come general election. it is the tale of two campaigns. >> mark, why does money matter in this respect? legally presidential candidates don't have to release their tax forms like this. at this juncture, it is a voluntary thing. we're talking about disparity of incomes. we are also talking about once people leave the white house,
they usually make a whole lot of money on public speeches. the president and first lady which accounts for a good amount of their money. at the same time, we don't know what the 2014 income for bernie and jane sanders is because we know this was an unusual year and that jane sanders wasn't working but primarily as an adviser. is this kind of money disparity importa important, valuable in the race for the white house? >> the money disparity in their personal incomes is less significant. obviously bernie sanders and his wife make a lot less money than hillary clinton and her husband, but i disagree. neither of them represent the average american. the average american doesn't make $206,000. >> the $50,000 range represents the average, the median income in america.
>> right. so it is not about that. it is about policy. it is about whose economic vision will allow the average american to thrive, engage in social mobility. who is not just talking about the wealthy and middle class but also talking about the working poor and desperately poor. whose policies made them worse or more precarious than prior. those are the questions to ask. the display of tax returns is a piece of political theater, a way to say if you don't do it, must be something shady. if you do it and come out with a lot of money, cash you for a 1%er, out of step with reality. i argue her economic vision in the last 10, 15 years has been troublesome, but i don't pin it on her making a lot of money. there are people that make a lot of money and have responsible economic visions. hillary clinton isn't one of them. in many ways it can be distraction from the policy dimension of this. i don't care how much their individual w-2 says, i care
about what their political vision is. if the question is how did you get the money, that's a whole different thing. if hillary made money talking to private donors and wall street and won't tell us what she said, that's a legitimate question, that's different than saying because you make a lot of money -- >> i talked to the new york governor andrew cuomo who explained why he thinks clinton has an advantage in new york. and by the way, he is a hillary clinton supporter. but listen. >> well, i think hillary clinton is going to do very well in new york because there's one basic advantage. new yorkers know hillary clinton. she was here for senator. we have seen her work, her performance. she's effective at making change, which is what this race comes down to at the end of the day in my opinion, fred. as democrats, you listen to bernie, to hillary, they're basically saying the same thing,
same goals. the question is who can actually get it done. i think hillary has proven, especially to new yorkers, that she can make change. she can make the government work. when you become president, they don't give you a magic wand that you wave. you have to get legislation passed. you have to get agencies to run programs. and that's an artform in and of itself. that's what hillary does very well. >> and that was the response when i asked about if you recall at the end of the debate, hillary clinton was giving a litany of these are the things i have done and i want an opportunity to continue to do this versus bernie sanders said this is my vision, this is what i see in america and i want the opportunity to help deliver this. does it appear a few days before the new york primary whether that will be an obstacle for bernie sanders to express that it is the vision that voters need to take a chance on opposed
to the candidate that says this is what i have done and i want to do more. >> i think it is about both. a lot of people understand hillary clinton's record. new yorkers especially, the working families party is an important party in new york. they didn't choose to nominate or support hillary clinton. they chose to support bernie sanders because of his record, accomplishments in the senate, the fact he passed more amendments and legislation than hillary clinton in the senate, that he has been able to work with republicans on passing progressive amendments. these are things that real doers do. he is a change agent. she talks about the record. but when you start to dig, it is not there. the economy shifted a lot since she was president, excuse me, since she was senator of new york. 2008, the financial industry collapse, new yorkers have been hurt. so i think the message that governor cuomo is saying now is a lot of rhetoric, but the reality is she really didn't get much done as senator, and very much so as secretary of state as well, and we are starting to see that in the last debates.
>> we're going to leave it there. mark, you'll have opportunity later to respond to that. thanks so much. appreciate it. still ahead, after a brief meeting with senator bernie sanders, the pope headed to greece, met with migrants, and then took three families back with him to the vatican. what their new life could look like next. ♪ in new york state, we believe tomorrow starts today. all across the state, the economy is growing, with creative new business incentives, the lowest taxes in decades, and new infrastructure for a new generation attracting the talent and companies of tomorrow. like in rochester, with world-class botox. and in buffalo, where medicine meets the future. let us help grow your company's tomorrow - today - at business.ny.gov the bud light party believes in change.
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this is breaking news. learning more about the meeting between the pope and senator bernie sanders. ben wedeman joins us from rome. so ben, explain more because bernie sanders went to the vatican without any kind of confirmation that he would meet with the pope, said he was there on the objective of the social and economic summit, but then
something rather miraculous happened and the two found themselves in the same place. how did it go? >> reporter: in fact, 24 hours ago vatican officials were quite unequivocal there would be no meeting, there was no meeting scheduled between pope francis and senator sanders but at 4:00 in the morning apparently they did run into one another somewhere, the residence, sort of the hotel in the vatican where pope francis stays. i spoke to bernie sanders this morning and he told me what he told pope francis, which was many words of praise and admiration for the man. when i asked senator sanders, however, what did the pope tell him, he said well, you should check with the vatican, i'm not going to say. now we know what he said, pope francis. pope francis speaking to pool reporters on the plane returning from greece to italy said this. i have to read it. this morning as i was leaving,
senator sanders was there. he knew i was coming out at the time and he had the kindness to greet me. when i came down, he introduced himself. i greeted him with a handshake and nothing more. it is common courtesy. that's called common courtesy. now responding to criticism that perhaps he was getting involved in american politics, the pope went on to say if someone thinks greeting someone is getting involved in politics, i recommend that they find a psychiatrist. >> oh my. >> fredricka? >> setting it straight, there was pleasantries, about the greeting, shaking hands. but no words that the vatican is willing to share. there were no words, no promises, no other endorsements. just a greeting. >> reporter: nothing of the sort. what's interesting is that one of our producers spoke with jeffrey sacks, columbia
university professor and adviser to professor sanders, who is also close to the pope. he suggested that it was pope francis who took the initiative, so there's a bit of a mystery in all of this. hopefully we will get to the bottom of it. >> nonetheless, if you get a chance to shake the hands of the pope, you still have bragging rights to say i was in the room with the pope, i got to shake hands. that's still a nice story to be able to tell. ben wedeman, thank you so much. appreciate it. we are also learning that bernie sanders, the senator, is expected to land in new york in about three hours from now from that trip from that encounter. coming up, trump and cruz, they don't get along but there is one thing they can agree on, they both think the economy is doomed. this as we wait for donald trump to take the stage in syracuse, new york. we'll be right back. we searched billions of flight combinations
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donald trump trying to appeal to voters in new york ahead of the primary. just now three days away. polling shows donald trump way out in front of the empire state with a favorable lead of 54% with ted cruz, a distant 16%, but ted cruz is hoping to do well in wyoming because he's the only one of the gop field to arrive in the wyoming convention today with many delegates at stake. so let's talk about these very two, very different candidates who are at odds. they both believe the economy is in big trouble. this week cruz firing a warning shot about the fed and that a market crash could be coming. >> the fed has for those with assets driven up assets values, but that's not built on anything real, it is not built on an increase in the intrinsic values. it is based on playing games
with money. >> donald trump has been echoing a similar sentiment, telling "the washington post," quote, i think we're sitting on an economic bubble, a financial bubble, and the country is headed for a massive recession. remember that when you talk to the editorial board and "the washington post" couple weeks ago. joining me to talk more about all of this, larry sab dough, from university of virginia and jason johnson, professor at hiram college. >> glad to be here. >> this view of pessimism is not what people are looking to hear from a presidential candidate. jason, you're here in the room with me first. why does ted cruz and donald trump feel this is beneficial to scare them straight, so to speak? >> it is not about scaring people straight, fred. if i am running against the incumbent party, i have to talk down the economy. everybody does it. if you say the economy is great, that helps barack obama, hillary
clinton, bernie sanders. this is very typical. >> how do you know these things. you hear from a lot of economists that say there are no indicators as of now to support what it is ted cruz and donald trump are saying. >> they don't have to know anything, fred, it is not about being correct, it is about setting a narrative. all you have to do is say look, if you don't vote for me, if you don't change what we are doing now, we are in trouble. george bush did it in 2000, bill clinton, it is the economy, stupid in 1992. as long as there's economic anxiety, if you're the challenger, you say the economy is going to heck in a hand basket. they're doing what any candidate would do. >> beneficial for ted cruz and donald trump? >> beneficial within the republican context. jason is absolutely correct, if you are running against the incumbent white house party, you must convince at least your partisans that the sky is falling. and if they believe the sky is
falling, more inclined to get excited and vote for you during the primaries and in november if you're the nominee. >> thank you both so much. you see donald trump speaking there in syracuse. we will find out in a moment when we come back whether he is saying the sky is falling or whether there's something better in the forecast with him in the white house. be right back. look at 'em! they're lovin' their vegetables. this is huge news! it's all thanks to our birds eye chef's favorites side dishes perfectly sauced or seasoned. what are you..? shh! i'm live tweeting. oh, boy. birds eye. so veggie good.
there in syracuse, new york, donald trump who according to apolo polling is 54% in the lead for the primary. republicans and democrats have so many delegates up for grabs. donald trump trying to differentiate himself between he and ted cruz and john kasich. let's listen in. >> no matter where we go, it is a movement like they've never seen before. it is a movement that maybe isn't going to ever happen again. the only way you stop the
movement is if we don't do a good job tuesday. that's what it is. we have to keep it going. and you know what? let me tell you simply, i am self funding, putting up my own money, okay? is that smart? i don't know. i always say i never get enough credit for that. i never get enough credit. when somebody looks at me, nobody thinks well, he's putting up his own money. let me tell you what it means. these guys, these politicians are all bought and paid for. remember it. remember it. look, i used to be the ultimate establishment person, nine months ago. i was like the perfect person. i gave massive campaign contributions to everybody. i was like -- but i saw the system, and the system is not working, and the system is all rigged as far as the delegate stuff is going. now look, i guess i'm complaining because it is not fair to the people. when you look at what happened in wyoming and what's happening
there, when you look at what's happening in colorado where the people never got a chance to vote, and they're going nuts out there, they're angry, the bosses took away their vote. i wasn't sending big teams three, four months ago out there, again, i am self funding. you will appreciate it. a lot of business people. we are going to cut regulations. >> donald trump in syracuse, new york, trying to stump for support there days ahead of the new york primary. welcome back jason johnson. donald trump, you know, still exhibiting, he has sour grapes over what happened in colorado, wyoming, potentially the same thing could happen, they're caucusing with the gop at convention there today because donald trump is not going west. donald trump says i am self funding, i want to remind people of that. i cannot be bought.
who doesn't know that among his supporters. what do his supporters want to hear leading into the primary or or need to hear anything? >> fred, i don't like this new donald trump. i liked -- >> what do you mean? >> this used to be the proud, i am taking on the establishment. now he is a whiner. now he is i don't like the rules. oh poor me. i am self funding. no, no, no, no, no. he's like the guy that wants to argue on scrabble, i didn't find that in the dictionary. learn the rules, do your job, take over. >> does that become a turnoff for his supporters or the supporters are in no matter what. >> they're in no matter what. like he said, he could shoot somebody in times square and they're in. i think for people that are vacillating, that have to consider trump, it is disappointing. he doesn't sound like a brash tough guy, he sounds like a whiner and loser. >> does that mean donald trump or ted cruz or john kasich, they're all in position, whoever their support is, the identified
supporters, that's just the way it is. there's no need to try to garner more support? is that what we are hearing from candidates? >> i don't think that's it. what you are realizing is they're trying to still win a primary. they know they're going to a contested convention, then they have to go about convincing everyone else that didn't vote for them to like them. that's why ted cruz is saying look, i can go and bring in trump supporters. that's why john kasich says i can bring in independents. everybody knows that contested convention is a foregone conclusion. but wooing people that didn't vote for you, that's what's going on. >> at the same time, donald trump is setting the stage for what could be brokered convention. let it hang out, how unfair, how shafted i may have been been, how rigged the system is, so that might potentially influence the sentiment on the floor if it comes down to brokered convention? >> i don't think it impacts anything on the floor, that's why ted cruz is grabbing the
delegates. people are saying i am in a committed state, i will vote trump first round, vote for you second round. i think party leadership recognizes this would be a mess, terrible if donald trump was robbed of the nomination. i think they all know that. end of the day i think he gets it. >> speaking of brokered convention and what could and couldn't happen. john kasich in great neck, new york. let's listen in. >> as i've said, look, we would all love to see some sort of a two state solution. but that's up to the parties, not going to tell the israelis how to run security and foreign policy. if i have something to tell them, i'll tell them without cameras around. they're undergoing tremendous pressure today because of the stabbings that occurred. it seems as though it is one thing after another. but i stand with them. i am not a neutral party when it
comes to israel. count me four square in their corner. in regard to that, i believe they need to have military superiority and i am happy with the fact even when i was in congress, we began early days of the iron dome, but it has become clear that the attacks come in every single way, and what i also am concerned about is the rise of anti-semitism in this world. and i will tell you this, it will not be tolerated at our college campuses. >> you were saying a two state solution would be on the parties to achieve that. what role, if any, do you see for the u.s. president. >> look, the united states always can serve as a mediator, and i have done this at times in my life, to bring parties together who search for
stability and some level of peace. but you have to have willing partners. that's why presidents don't run around the world having meetings without having opportunity to achieve something. you have to have willing partners. right now, i don't think that the israelis have a willing partner for peace. the moment a partner would appear and say let's see if we can stabilize the situation, i would be the first one there to help. >> john kasich there in great neck, new york, speaking and responding to questions of global importance. we're going to have much more on the campaign trail after this. what's with him?
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so whether it's your car or home, let allstate help protect your rates. talk to a local allstate agent and discover how much more their personal service can do for you. call 888-429-5722 now. wyoming delegates are up for grabs. ted cruz wants them all. he is the only gop candidate stumping for support at this convention. >> america is the saudi arabia of coal and we're going to develop our resources and bring jobs back. just a couple of weeks ago i was at a campaign event in west virginia with several hundred coal miners. person after person i had the opportunity to shake hands with, look them in the eyes. person after person, what they
said was simple. they just said help me. my entire life, my family is under assault from the federal government. this is wrong. we are blessed with unbelievable energy resources. coal, oil, gas, wind, nuclear, solar, ethanol, bio fuels. all of them. ought to develop all of them. that's millions of jobs for americans without knuckleheads from washington stopping it. >> ted cruz there talking about securities of employment to religion in casper, wyoming. jason johnson is back. he is putting himself in position of great advantage potentially because he is the only gop candidate spending the time in front of the gop convention there in casper, wyoming now. why doesn't donald trump or john kasich feel like they need to do the same? >> in kasich's case, he doesn't
have the money, can't afford to fly around, doesn't have that many frequent flyer miles. donald trump, because he is bringing up the rear. donald trump hasn't figured out the rules to the campaign yet. he didn't realize that he should be in wyoming. i also think he believes -- >> especially after colorado when he suffered a great loss. getting no representation in colorado, not spending time there. his argument has been it's a rigged system. >> right. >> but knowing or hearing this constant reinforcement of here are the rules, these are the rules. why would he feel like wyoming is not opportunity to change his ground game? >> because number one, he has made some changes, fred. trump did go hire a delegate manager, a delegate svengali to help him out. he wants a big victory in his home state, wants to be over 50%, so he can crush cruz, head to maryland and pennsylvania.
i also think it is arrogance. i think donald trump thinks i can do things my way, it worked so far. rather than stamp my feet i will complain like a baby. >> meantime, ted cruz getting potential gains in wyoming. does that create a scenario where he becomes a greater threat to a donald trump, the frontrunner? >> most definitely. between colorado and things that happened in louisiana, wyoming, he is going to narrow this gap. >> becomes a more viable candidate. >> a much more viable candidate in a contested convention. >> jason johnson, thanks for hanging around with me, helping us dot the map with all of the candidates trying to get that support. thank you. we'll be right back.
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welcome back. new twists in the murder of beloved former nfl star. the defense attorney for the man that gunned down ex-saints captain will smith after a fender bender last saturday is demanding officers recuse themselves from the investigation. the lawyer for cardell hayes wrote a letter accusing new orleans police department of being incompetent. the suspect's attorney claiming the deceased nfl player was the aggressor in the altercation, this as the city remembers the life of a future hall of famer, and prepares to lay him to rest today. here is cnn's martin savidge.
>> reporter: just outside new orleans, nfl players and coaches pay their respects to a saint. number 91. will smith. >> rest in peace. >> reporter: on the street where smith died, fans celebrate his life, in true new orleans style. smith died a week ago, gunned down while arguing with another driver over a minor accident. the exact details are still in question. his death shocked new orleans and beyond. the coach of the saints declaring our city is broken. >> is it? >> i think that shawn's initial reaction was one of emotion, he wasn't looking at the facts and circumstances of this particular case. >> reporter: according to the fbi, murders are down 65% from a peak in 1994. that year 424 people were killed. last year it was 165.
landrieu is bothered by the focus on just one. >> i will say, though, and i mean this with great respect, there's been a lot of attention paid to this particular case. the next day there was another young man killed in the city that nobody is talking about, and hundreds of people killed before that nobody seems to know or care about either. >> reporter: if he sounds frustrated, he is. on the very day smith died, voters in new orleans rejected a property tax increase to help pay for 400 additional police officers. >> i have been to more funerals than i want to be to. >> reporter: father bell terry is frustrated too, keeper of the murder board, a sign on which he writes murder victims' names. he was one of six he added thursday. >> i added gerald smith, norman lions, rye nel kimbrough, dawn scott, will smith, and bryant brans feld. >> reporter: he also writes
their ages. >> 25, 33, 31, 38, 34, 31. that's a waste, isn't it? >> reporter: back at city hall, the mayor surprises me with his own murder board, with not just names but faces of every murder victim that's died since he took office. >> who made this? >> i made it. >> why did you make it. >> because it is the most important thing that i do. i talk about trying to keep the city safe every day. young men who lose their lives and women through gun violence, but mostly young men. >> reporter: both the mayor and minister know people are shocked and saddened by smith's death and they also hope finally ready to work together for change. martin savidge, cnn, new orleans. >> so the questions persist now. who was the aggressor and whether the former saints player ever brandished a weapon during the altercation. let's talk about it with civil rights attorney avery freeman and richard herman, new york
criminal defense attorney. good to see you all. this is a very difficult case, i am sure, for investigators to get to the bottom of, even though they have eyewitness accounts, there's videotape of how will smith's vehicle rear ended mr. hayes' vehicle. so i wonder, richard, if you could help take us through what will be determined here. is it an issue of who had the right to brandish a weapon, show a weapon, fire a weapon? what is at issue? >> fred, the issue is stand your ground law which we have covered over the years, that's in effect in louisiana. the issue is whether or not hayes felt he was in imminent fear of great bodily harm that would allow him justifiable manner to protect himself and shoot. >> if i can stop you there, that would mean after his vehicle is bumped as opposed to taking off,
going a different direction, it would mean pursuing the person that just bumped you. seems to me you're no longer feeling the fear, you're going toward what you are saying fears you, then there's the issue of the weapon. pick it up from there after establishing fear or lack thereof. >> yeah. you cannot be the aggressor. that's the issue. you cannot be the aggressor. here after smith hit him in the rear and took off, hayes went after him. that makes him now an aggressor. and he bumps allegedly smith's vehicle in the rear, the two men get out, there's an altercation. it would have been signed, sealed, delivered case except for the fact that police uncovered a loaded handgun in smith's car. now that's going to raise the specter of whether that gun was pulled, which would have been a just fieable use.
inside the smith vehicle, can they be trusted, are they credible, is hayes credible, are the police credible. you heard defense counsel wanting state police to take over the investigation. that's how he feels. >> avery, then the issue of the guns in the vehicle, that a gun was in the vehicle, does that necessarily mean it was on display, that it was used? what will investigators have to try to determine, how will they determine whether this was an issue of two people brandishing weapons and threatening each other? >> there's no evidence that will smith was brandishing anything, but there is no question, however, that there was a gun back in his car. when will smith gets shot in the back seven times, i don't care if you've got stand your ground, wyatt earp, gun battles of the okay corral, the fact is, if
anything the best cardell hayes has is conventional self defense. when you shoot somebody like that, you shoot the wife twice in the legs, i can't fathom how there's any reasonable self defense. i would go to new orleans and prosecute the case now. >> terrible case. avery, richard, there's so much still to uncover about the case. appreciate it. good to see you guys. more in the cnn newsroom straight ahead. s today. all across the state, the economy is growing, with creative new business incentives, and the lowest taxes in decades, attracting the talent and companies of tomorrow. like in buffalo, where the largest solar gigafactory in the western hemisphere will soon energize the world. and in syracuse, where imagination is in production. let us help grow your company's tomorrow - today - at business.ny.gov i am totally blind. i lost my sight in afghanistan. if you're totally blind,
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