this is cnn tonight, i'm don lemon, 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. live with all the breaking news tonight, and it's a cnn exclusive. secret tape of candidate donald trump talking with his fixer, attorney michael cohen, about how they would buy the rights to a play boy model story about an alleged affair with trump years earlier. hear for yourself what they said. >> quick poll by the way. great poll. big time. >> your guy is a good guy. what's happening? can we use any more? >> we told him -- >> i don't mean that. mark berns, can we use him? >> no. >> richard just called. >> we got served from "the new york times." i told you this. unseal the divorce papers with ivana.

we're fighting it. cas wits is going to -- >> he'll never be able to get that done. >> no, never. >> and it's all -- >> all you have to do is delay it. >> even after that it's never going to be opened. there's no purpose for it. told you about charleston. i need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david. i've spoken to allen about how to set the whole thing up, funding -- >> yes. and it's -- all the stuff, because here you never know that company --

correct. i'm all over that. i spoke to alan about it. when it comes time for the financing -- >> listen, what financing? >> well, i have to pay -- >> pay cash. >> no, no, no, i got -- no, no, no. >> so let's bring in now michael avenatti, stormy daniels attorney with reaction to our breaking news. listen, i've spoken to you about this case. i've spoken to you about meeting stormy daniels. i've spoken to you about the karen mcdougal case as well. for the questioning that i want to ask you about, i want to play what i think is the key part of this conversation and then you and i will discuss this, between michael cohen and donald trump. take a listen. >> i spoke to alan weiselberg about how to set the whole thing up with the funding -- yes. and it's all the stuff. because here you never know with that company. correct. so i'm all over that. i spoke to alan about it, when it comes time for the financing. >> what financing? >> we'll have to pay.

>> pay cash? >> no, no, no. >> listen, i know you represent stormy daniels. so just as an attorney tell me what you're hearing? >> well, i'm hearing these two coconspirators trying to figure out how they're going to make this payment which appears to not be unusual, frankly, don. you know, i have kind of a different take than some of the people that i've heard comment on this. when michael cohen says financing, i don't think he's referring to financing in the form of they're going to go get a loan for this. i think he's just using that term to describe how are they going to make the payment to be clear. now, there's no question in my view that donald trump is the one that first raises this issue of cash. it has yet to be seen whether that's green backs or some other payment mechanism, although he feels the need to later clarify or use the term check. but, look, from my perspective, it doesn't matter whether it's

cash or check or some other form of payment. i mean, what i'm hearing is michael cohen, being the sycophant for the president, cheerleader, if you will, and they're talking about something that occurs evidently on a regular basis between the two of them. >> this apparently -- this tape is allegedly two months from the election. and a couple times on the tape, on the longer version it talks about, well, you just have to delay it for a few weeks, delay it for a few weeks. what do you think is going on here? what do you make of the timing? >> they are clearly concerned about what information is going to come out before the election. you know, i also think -- not a lot of people are commenting on this. i think the reference to "the new york times" effort to unseal the divorce file, i believe that relates to the unsealing of perhaps the deposition or other documents relating to that deposition that was given or the

allegation of spousal rape that was made at one point in time. not a lot of people are talking about that right now. but i think that's what is being referred to relating to "the new york times" trying to unseal that file. so all of this is in the context -- this entire meeting is about the election and what's going on in connection with what information is going to be disclosed prior to the election. >> lanny davis says that this is about paying karen mcdougal, not your client stormy daniels. but how do these tapes play into your case, or do they have anything to do with your case? does it help prove your case? >> well, don, we have reason to believe -- let me back up. first of all, as i have said before, there's multiple tapes -- there's more than one tape. alan dershowitz told me i didn't know what i was talking about. turns out he doesn't know what he's talking about. there are multiple tapes. i think lanny davis confirmed that now. there's over 12 recordings, well over 12 recordings. hopefully lanny davis is going to do the right thing, and

release all of them and michael cohen. i doubt they're going to do that. i'll get to that in a minute. we have reason to believe there are tapes relating to the payment to my client, including tapes between michael cohen and keith davidson. >> so, i want to get your response to this. this is something that i asked. i spoke to sources as this interview was going on, and i called some of michael cohen's friends. they say it certainly looks like he wants to tell the truth and this is from them, too. the most important person in america right now seeking the truth about trump and that's mueller. i asked lanny davis about that and he said i can't answer that question, don. there's a reason i keep saying the truth is on our side. he says. and who most wants to hear the truth from michael cohen? i have to leave that unanswered. what do you think about that statement? >> don, you know, look, i think lanny is a very good attorney, but i think he's playing a game, him and michael cohen with the public. i mean there's nothing stopping michael cohen from coming clean

right now, disclosing all of this information and all of these tapes. there was nothing stopping michael cohen from issuing a statement tonight about what really happened during this meeting. you know, i mean, lanny was hired to do one thing and he wasn't hired to represent michael cohen before the southern district. that's mr. parillo's job. he wasn't hired to represent him in defending our cases. that's mr. blakely's job. lanny was brought in to change the narrative and push the reset button about the optics related to michael cohen. you know what, lanny may be able -- he may be a good makeup artist. he may be able to put a lot of lipstick on that pig, but guess what, it's still a pig. the fact of the matter is michael cohen is a coconspirator who participated for months and years in this, what i will-call criminal conduct. and eventually he's going to have to come clean and he can't continue to just claim he's a patriot and love of country without providing the goods. >> i'm sure you'll remember this denial.

let's play it. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> then why did michael cohen make those -- >> you have to ask michael cohen. michael is my attorney and you'll have to ask michael. >> do you know where he got the money to make that payment? >> no, i don't know. >> so he denied that and then referenced michael cohen, saying you'll have to ask his attorney michael cohen. so, do you think that this new recording, does it to you show that he did have an affair and he tried to cover it up or that he knew about it? >> i think it is certainly circumstantial evidence donald trump knew about each of these payments and knew what was going on in the months prior to the election day of what payments were being made and how they were being structured and michael cohen was consulting with him. i don't know how you reconcile this tape, don, with michael cohen's denials and others acting on his behalf when we

first filed this case in march, april and may. how many times did we hear michael cohen and people on his behalf claim that the allegations were false and that hm and donald trump, that he and donald trump were innocent? we have continued to hear that. which is it? the bottom line here is if they have information and evidence they need to come clean and they need to do it now. >> i have to ask you one quick question. you said coconspirator. michael cohen has not been charged with anything. what do you mean by coconspirator? >> he hasn't been charged yet. there's no question he's going to be indicted. i've been saying this for a while. there's no question he's going to be indicted for serious charges. he knows it, i know it, lanny davis, anyone involved in this case knows it's going to happen. that's one of the reasons why you're seeing what you're seeing. they want to try to change the public perception of michael cohen but i don't think they'll buy it. >> thank you. the trump cohen tape could it be

become evidence in a court of law? we're going to dig into it with our legal experts.

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back now with michael avenatti, stormy daniels's attorney. michael, i have one more question for you i needed to ask. cnn is reporting you requested a meeting last week with michael cohen and one of his lawyers to discuss a possible settlement. tell me what happened. >> well, that's not what happened, don. look, i want to set the record straight on this. about three to four weeks ago we began a dialogue with michael cohen's counsel. mr. blakely wasn't even involved in that. relating to the potential of potentially resolving the litigation against michael cohen provided he would come clean and provide us with the information that he had relating to the intimidation of my client in las vegas, the payment of the $130,000. basically, don, the deal was

going to be contingent on michael cohen doing the right thing and coming 100% clean with information and cooperating. so, it was a lengthy process, a lengthy dialogue. we ultimately had a meeting set up for monday yesterday at 4:00 p.m. we learned, i learned on sunday morning after appearing on the abc show with george stephanopoulos that michael cohen did not have any intention of doing the right thing, did not intend to provide the information and come clean to the american people. and so i made it known to lanny davis we weren't going to proceed with the meeting period and that's exactly what happened. >> so that's where it stands now, you have not discussed any of it with him, there have been no further discussions? >> there's been no further discussions and there's not going to be any further discussions until and unless michael cohen does the right thing and comes clean. he needs to get off the fence and stop -- >> what happened, then? what was the break down, what happened? >> well, the break down was that it became clear to me that michael cohen wasn't going to

provide the information and wasn't going to do the right thing. look, i'm not gonna -- we're not going to negotiate with people that want to continue to cover up and lie to the public, period. >> all right. thank you, michael avenatti, appreciate it. >> thanks. >> now a cnn exclusive. candidate donald trump and his attorney michael cohen heard on the tape talking about how they would buy the rights to a playboy model's story about an affair she says trump had with her years earlier back in 2006. the president's attorney rudy giuliani is reacting tonight and i want to bring in now cnn legal analyst michael and harry litman. good evening to you. a whole lot to get to tonight. you heard what michael avenatti said and you heard some of the tapes, the entire tape we played here on cnn. so, giuliani appeared on fox news earlier tonight. here's what he said about the tapes. >> in any event, i don't think anyone can suggest that this represents anything where the president did anything wrong. that's the reason why we waived it.

would we have put it out had it not been leaked, no we wouldn't have put it out. i've dealt with much worse tapes than this. >> is that all just spin from giuliani? is that the reason why they waived privilege on this tape? >> it's lousy spin and, you know, it's lousy spin on top of lousy spin because when it came out friday, he told two whoppers about the tape that we now know aren't true. nobody could believe -- a prosecutor could believe that this is clearly the president and his -- and cohen conspiring to pay hush money in violation, not only of election law, but also wire fraud and bank fraud. and they just waived it because it showed he did nothing wrong. that's really hogwash. i think almost certainly now we know why they waived it. they waived it because under the law, you can't have privilege for a conversation that is

itself advancing a crime. and they realized or the united states made clear that they -- the united states would argue that this was advancing a crime. and if the special master agreed, that would be tantamount to a judgment that this shows the president in criminal activity. to avoid that judgment, they said, okay, no privilege. >> harry, let's go over this. you said conspiracy, they're conspiring, is that what you said? and then you mentioned for what crimes again, tell me? >> okay. so, yes, certainly we come in in the middle of the story. trump and cohen are clearly in cahoots. so, the big -- it's clear whatever cohen is liable for trump is. what has he done wrong? probably, for a prosecutor, these are the charges they'll look at and they look likely. he's violated campaign finance. >> okay. >> he engineered this money to get around having to report it and took something very valuable in kind. he almost certainly in the

structuring of it lied to a bank about what was going on. and, therefore, committed a form of bank fraud. and he very likely committed fraud using the wires against mcdougal herself, maybe with the help of the lawyer that he set up to represent her. that would be wire fraud. but the big point is -- and this makes all the stuff about is cohen a bad guy, good guy kind of secondary. it's really clear that any criminal liability here extends equally to the president as a potential unindicted coconspirator. >> michael, you have the floor now. is that how you see it? >> no, not at all. actually, i don't see that. what i hear on this tape are two

people having a conversation about purchasing assets from american media international, setting up a limited liability corporation to pay for those assets, having that deal not go through and that's the end of it. i don't see this as evidence of criminality. i don't hear the word cash, which i think the president said. i don't hear the word cash as meaning greenbacks. i hear it as meaning a liquid form of payment, a non-financed form of payment. and i just don't see how this really implicates criminal -- >> what do you mean non-finance, wiring? >> yeah, michael cohen says -- they're talking about -- he says -- the president says what financing? and that, i think, is implying how are they going to pay for this. and of course setting up a limited liability corporation to pay american media for the assets that it has, the mcdougal story and/or others. they're probably going to send a wire. through limited liability

corporation which is lawful. the limited liability corporation may be set up in order to make one step of separation between trump and the payment, so that may be indication of some intention of keeping them separate. but i don't see any of the crimes harry is talking about. >> we know they set up -- >> may i? >> hold on, i will. we know that they set up one for stormy daniels. would this be a different one? >> well, we don't know. we can play the tape again, don. what they say in the tape is i have spoken to adam or a name like that to set up -- >> the short version, the little 30-second version of it. let me know when we have that. and harry, i promise i'll let you respond. >> i need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david, you know, so that -- i'm going to do that right away. >> give it to me. >> i've spoken to alan

weiselberg about how to set the whole thing up with -- >> how are we going to pay -- >> funding, yes. it's all the stuff -- you never know what company -- >> -- >> correct. i'm all over that. i spoke to alan about it when it comes time for the financing -- >> listen, what financing? >> we'll have to pay -- >> pay cash. >> no, no, no, i got -- >> so, i mean, it sounds to me like he said cash. and he says, no, no, no, check. cash is cash. >> well, no, cash is not necessarily cash in a greenbacks sense of the word. cash could mean just as easily a non-financed, if you will, not a loan. a payment --

>> what's the difference? that's what i'm trying to figure out. what's the difference between that and -- how does that make a difference? >> the point that lanny davis was making to chris cuomo was only drug traffickers and mafia use cash. he was using that word in the context of greenbacks, money in a briefcase or a bag. i don't hear it that way. i hear it as a financed or non-financed deal. >> okay. >> whether it's by check or wire or otherwise. trump seems to be saying, i don't want it financed. and so the bottom line here, though, is the payment was never made, so there's no, you know, wire fraud in the payment. >> i got you. >> and therefore i don't see it as criminal as harry does. >> go ahead, harry. >> michael, the cash versus non-cash is a trivial issue. what's -- you talk about this -- that was the main point that lanny davis was making at 9:00. >> people are -- okay, it's a

trivial issue. people are seizing on it. it doesn't matter. it's certainly secondary. you talk about this as if they're setting up some real estate transaction. it's expressly clear from the point that don just made, they are paying hush money to cover up an affair and they're doing it and they're doing this as part of many deals. they're doing it in the shadow of the election. they want to hold off for a few weeks. it's what they are paying off and the reason they're doing it that makes it criminal. not whether it's cash or not, but whether they are trying to hide a campaign finance -- >> harry, they never made the payment. >> well, so that would go to whether it's an attempt or not. it would not vitiate conspiracy. and the main point of what's going on here is the hush money payment, not just to mcdougal, but to others. remember cohen says, well, we have to set up this whole organization, the cfo of trump

organization could get hit by a bus. >> yeah. >> the issue is -- >> got to go, guys. make your point. go ahead, finish your point then i have to go. >> the only thing -- >> no, harry first. >> sorry. >> it's an overall conspiracy to pay hush money to someone who could harm the election prospects for him straightforwardly. >> quickly, michael, please. >> the only theoretical crime that's here is the possibility of failure to report a payment by ami for the influence of an election. >> all right. thank you both. >> wait for the sdny. they'll settle this. >> all right, harry. >> thank you, guys. when we come back much more on the trump cohen tape exclusive. rudy giuliani says the president is disappointed over the tape, but how much will all of this matter to voters? ahh... summer is coming.

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so great to have all of you on this evening. thank you so much. brian, you first. i want to play the key part of the cohen audio and then we'll talk. here it is again. >> um, i need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend david, you know, i'm going to do that right away. >> give it to me -- >> and i've spoken to alan weiselberg about how to set the whole thing up -- >> so how are we going to pay -- >> with funding, yes. all the stuff. because here you never know where that company -- >> nobody gets hit -- >> correct. i'm all over that. i spoke to alan about it when it comes time for the financing -- >> listen, what financing? >> well, i have to pay -- >> pay cash. >> no, no, no -- i got -- no, >> brian, so when he says all that stuff, that's what we've been talking about.

it's all that stuff, what -- >> what is he talking about? they seem to be referring to my friend david, meaning david pecker the chairman of american media, inc. the owner of national enquirer and other tabloids. we all know trump and pecker are friends, they go way back. pecker has been buying up stories trying to bury them to protect his friend donald trump for many years. this is something called catch and kill. so we know they were trying to catch and kill the karen mcdougal story. but what else was pecker catching and killing? on the tape you hear cohen say all of the info. we need to buy up all the info, all of the stuff. it is a mystery, don, about what else pecker could have been buying up and what else trump and cohen wanted to buy from pecker because you hear trump say there, what if it gets hit by a truck. he seems to be saying what if my friend david pecker gets hit by a truck. at least that's my interpretation of what trump is saying there. we need to buy up the secrets so that they don't get out. that's how it sounds. and of course i've asked american media about this.

i was able to reach the spokesman tonight right as cuomo was airing the tape. ever since then they're not responding to requests for comment. >> i talked to chris about the same thing that you said. what are they talking about, all of what material? is there a treasure trove of material between donald trump -- are there other catch and kill stories? >> that's the mystery. >> that's the mystery. >> don? >> go ahead, alice. >> i just want to say obviously they're trying to get back the information mcdougal gave to them. i dealt with their friend david pecker during the presidential campaign when they were creating this nonsense story about ted cruz's father killing jfk. i can assure you there is zero daylight between david pecker and donald trump when it comes to stories that -- quashing stories that are negative of donald trump and promoting stories that are negative of his opponents. and the fact that we are now hearing that the president knew about this long ago is not a big surprise, but we're hearing this and there is no surprise in his voice. the only surprise is that rudy

giuliani -- >> finish your thought. for time purposes, we have to go quick. go on. >> the legal angle is fascinating, but we have to talk about the treatment of women. i don't want to hear michael cohen called the fixer anymore. he is the silencer. we need to pay attention to the beginning of that tape where they reference the deposition with ivana. she accused president trump of raping her. that deposition has been stopped. the only reporter to write about it is the one who wrote the last tycoon. when it came up during the presidential election, a reporter from "the daily beast" asked michael cohen about it, he made this ridiculous denial, denial. ivana was raped in the figurative sense, not the

literal sense. this is michael cohen's bailiwick. if that tape makes him seem better in the public light, no, he stuck with that story about ivan a, he's stuffing the story about karen mcdougal, stuffing the story about stormy daniels. i find it interesting michael avenatti continues to raise the idea someone physically intimidated her to silence her. that piece of the story was not going away. >> matt, you're up. >> okay. so look, first, if this was a normal politician, a normal president, what happened today would be an explosive bombshell. as it stands with donald trump, the rules have all changed. so this is not the biggest story this week probably, but what i think it could be is the beginning of who knows what. what we know is that michael cohen had these tapes. clearly, what was it, like 11 or 12 of them we're told. lanny davis is going to be potentially leaking tapes to try to cut a deal so that his client can maybe flip on the president of the united states. >> so, stand by, everyone. that's what i want to talk about in the next segment. this is just the beginning. did lanny davis lead with his

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i'm back now with brian stelter, matt lewis, alice stuart, and amanda carpenter. we've been talking about this tape where you can hear donald trump and michael cohen, his fixer, about karen mcdougal, the alleged affair that happened in 2006. i said before the break, matt -- amanda, you brought it up -- or was it matt -- saying there was more -- there's 11 or 12 other tapes. i'm wondering if lanny davis is leading with his best stuff or is there more to come that's even bigger and more explosive. what do you think of that, brian?

>> you know, 12 tapes that we know of -- last week, some of which might be with members of the media. cohen, the way this tape sounds, sounds like he was taping all sorts of things. this is a profound betrayal of his client, donald trump. i mean, on one level, isn't it a betrayal of his client? walking around like he's wearing a wire? >> it's not illegal to record. >> not illegal. i suppose the innocent explanation would be, you know, my boss donald trump, he gets a lot of things messed up. he's confused a lot of the time. i need to record our conversations so that i can get my job -- i can do the right thing for my client. that would be the innocent explanation. he was recording his boss in order to make sure he was doing his job really well. that would be the innocent explanation. but it sure sounds strange -- it sure seems strange and you have to wonder if we've heard one tape, we know there is' 12 at least. there have to be a lot more than 12. >> listen, i have to play this, alice. sarah sanders was asked about karen mcdougal's yesterday press briefing. i want to play that exchange.

>> counsel still deny he had a relationship with karen mcdougal? >> once again the president maintains he's done nothing wrong, and i would refer you to rudy giuliani for all questions on that matter. >> she didn't address affair -- did nothing wrong is what she said, alice. what do you think? >> i think that's their story and they're going to stick to it. we could have videotape, heaven for bid, and they'll still say he did nothing wrong. the reality is what we're going to see if we trotted all the tapes, this is nothing more than lanny davis and rudy giuliani saying who can pee up higher on the wall than the other. because this is nothing new. we knew donald trump had an affair. we knew he was going to lie about it. we knew -- hope hicks was not truthful about it. all of that is really between he and melania. the truth is from a republican standpoint, they knew about a lot of this before. they voted for him anyway. what i'm concerned with, was this a campaign finance

violation, and that is the crux of what we need to get at. all of this other stuff, in my view, is disgusting, but it's personal between he and his wife. i want to know about whether or not any laws were violated. >> amanda, you're shaking your head. >> yeah, the new information, and alice was getting to that point, there is evidence of an election crime. there is a new question for sarah huckabee sanders at her new white house press briefing. why was the president of the united states discussing with his lawyer and rnc finance chairman the creation of shell companies to hide undisclosed payments and the purpose of helping donald trump in the presidential election. that's what they're discussing, shell companies with ease, a subject they have discussed before. i mean, this is a conversation that was not the first one. they were continuing somewhere where they had left off before. and think about how easily it came. they do this like they're getting a cup of coffee, oh, yeah, set up that shell company. you good with that? yep, good. i mean, this was very normal and everyone was on the same page in

that room, which i may remind everyone there are other witnesses to that conversation because you can hear other ambient people talking. >> i love when trump says get me a coke in the middle of this really important conversation. >> one would assume he's recording, he's on a telephone. it sounds like everybody was in the same room. i have to ask you about this, matt. this is a tweet from washington post reporter robert costa. he spoke with giuliani tonight. he said giuliani on trump's reaction tonight, they hope -- excuse me. says they spoke, he's disappointed. angry? bob, i didn't say angry, i said he's disappointed. he's disappointed his own lawyer recorded him, discouraged. will potus speak out? he has twitter. what do you say to that, matt? >> i would not be surprised if donald trump starts going after michael cohen. this is not a way to get a pardon, but it might be a way to cut a deal with robert mueller. it seems like that's the direction that lanny davis has decided to go with this. i think once you cross the rubicon there, it's hard to come back.

i don't blame donald trump. michael cohen was supposed to be his guy who would take a bullet for his client, and who knows how often he was recording the president, then not the president, but his client, without his knowledge. it's pretty scummy actually what he did. i mean there's a lot of scumminess to go around obviously. >> as friends of cohen as said he feels an obligation to the country. he feels a responsibility to the country. it's popular to say nobody cares about this. you know who does care? trump's opponents. trump's opponents heading into the midterms. i think these kinds of stories really mobilize and energize the resistance. >> yeah, guy petrillo is his attorney, by the way. we haven't heard much from him. we've only been hearing from lanny davis who is representing him, i guess, as his attorney in the media, but not -- >> media spokesman. >> media spokesman, but not his official attorney. we have much more to talk about, there are other things on that tape. they mention the divorce between

ivana. they also mention some of the reverends there who are supporters of donald trump. what were they saying? we can't use him anymore. what's going on with all this? we'll be right back. hey there people eligible for medicare. gimme one minute... and i'll tell you some important things to know about medicare. first, it doesn't pay for everything. say this pizza is your part b medical expenses. this much - about 80% - medicare will pay for. what's left is on you. that's where an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan,

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back now with brian stelter, matt lewis, alice stewart and amanda carpenter. i just want you to listen to another part of this tape. here it is. >> he had an idea for you. >> great. >> we got served from "the new york times" required to unseal the divorce papers with ivana. we're fighting it. kasowitz is going to -- >> you're never going to be able to get that done. >> never. they don't have a legitimate

purpose. >> a woman that doesn't want -- >> correct. >> it's been going on for a while. >> for about two or three weeks. >> all you have to do is delay. >> even after that it's not going to be opened. there's no purpose for it. i told you about charleston. >> so they were talking about different things, charleston, and then what amanda said they were talking about, the divorce records between him and ivana trump, "the new york times" i think he said wanted to release them. he said that should never happen and his attorneys were working on it. the response as you said, amanda, is that she said that it wasn't physical, right? >> well, what happened in the deposition, which to my knowledge has only been recorded by an author which much it was recounted in a book, and he said ivana was raped in the divorce

deposition, and they got into a deplorable fight after donald trump had a surgery on his head to adjust his hairline by a surgeon that was recommended by ivana. he came home enraged, ripped her hair out and threw her on the bed and raped her. that's what she said in her papers. he got a letter from trump's lawyers that ivana signed that said when i said the word rape i meant it in the figurative sense, not the literal sense. >> that was emotional rather. >> they called that a classic nondenial and she got reporte y reportedly $14 million after that, never talked about it again. in that language, literally she was raped, figuratively, not literally, came up during the election day when a daily beast reporter asked cohen about this story and cohen flew into a rage.

the reporter later posted that audio later when he was working for npr. no one has the full story beyond what was written in that book, and clearly they don't want it to come out. >> in this part they're also saying that -- talking about delays. they said two or three weeks there should be a delay in this. one would assume that means for the campaign this apparently happened two months before the campaign, but they're talking about delays. the timing, matt, is important here. >> it could be if they go down the campaign finance reform angle. i really hope they don't because i do think that there's a slippery slope there and that this could open a whole can of set precedent -- i mean, look, at what point can you pay hush money to your mistress? if he had done it six months earlier is that a campaign finance violation? but if it's a week before the election then it's suddenly a campaign finance violation. i don't know where that might lead us ultimately.

i'm not defending what donald trump said. >> buy their secrets and it's messy. the key part of that tape about ivana was the line saying we've got to keep it going for a few weeks. >> i also think it's important because he says i've spoken to allen wisealberg how to set the whole thing up. >> the attorney generals in new york and other states would certainly be interested in that. you have to be careful of ivana. she seemed to back away from those claims about violence in the relationship. but it's notable one of the many tasks michael cohen had in the weeks in the election was trying to stop those divorce records from nothing out. this is the ugly sort of stuff happens behind the scenes of at least the trump campaign we're now hearing about. >> this tape shows how the sausage is made. and you never want to know how the sausage is made, alice.

>> don, also the other thing you glean out of this is the nonchallant way they're talking about it like it's nothing. it begs the question is this the kind of conversation they've had before and it also opens up questions about are there others? >> was it just me or did donald trump actually seem quicker and sharper when talking about how to pay the hush money than he does on his normal job? it's almost like there was a whole "saturday night live" skit where reagan, where there they go again, was this mastermind. if you go back and listen to that tape, trump was actually talking very quit. >> shell companies to hide payments. >> do you think was a warning by the president to team cohen? >> it's a food fight. i don't think anybody wins on this. they work hand in hand together -- >> i think it's the seventh or eight warning.

the ninth warning is coming next. >> i think it's a message to mueller. it's a desperation plea. >> okay, thank you all. very interesting evening. what's going to happen tomorrow? you don't know. so you need to stay tuned. our coverage continues. i'm making smoothies! how do i check my credit score? credit karma. don't worry, it's free. credit karma. give yourself some credit.

a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! i need to open up a company for the transfer of -- no, no, no, no. >> a cnn exclusive. audio of donald trump and michael cohen, despite past denials it seems the president knew about a possible hush payment to a playboy playmate. $12 billion in emergency aid for farmers caught in the president's trade war. republican lawmakers are lashing out at one calls a soviet type