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tv   Fareed Zakaria GPS  CNN  October 21, 2018 7:00am-8:00am PDT

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from new york. the death of jamal khashoggie and it's after effects. will the world accept a cover-up and move on? what happened to u.s.-saudi relations. and what does this do to an already unstable middle east. also, how did "the washington post" turn the story of one man into an international cause? i will talk to the post's editorial editor fred hyatt. and do you drive a pickup or a prius? your answers to those questions and more tell researchers a lot about your politics. how do you score? find out. but first, here's my stake. the barbaric murder of jamal khashoggie tells us something
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important about saudi arabia, but it also tells us something important about saudi arabia. khashoggie used to be a member of the saudi establishment. i met him first 14 years ago, he was one of the people who assisted me when i spent a week in riyadh. the long time head of saudi intelligence who then became ambassador to britain and would later become ambassador to the united hashoggie was in those d moderate and a reform. her worried that too much reform wou would -- a mix of authoritarianism and real reforms. khashoggie became more critical,
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but he was never a radical? why he was seen as so threatening? perhaps because he was respected within the saudi establishment. >> to see him run so afoul of that establishment, to run afoul of the monarchy suggests that there's a deep cleavage with that establishment. when he noted that the conservatism within the ruling elite was almost always the precursor to a broader breakdown of regime. authorities inside saudi arabia have retained stability because it's a -- disscepters by buying them off, most important in the case of hard line clerks, yet mbs as the crown prince is known, appears to be changing the model from -- he is mixing
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economic and religious reforms with an every tighter grip on power. targeting new platforms and now it would seem executing a loll lunchtime niloll -- columnist. ruthless actions like this often tends to produce instability in the long run. hosni m hosni -- ironically for someone so ferociously anti-iranian, mbs sometimes resembles no mideastern ruler as much as the shaw of iran, who was a reformer and also a dispot, and also much loved by wen eleads, mohammad bin salman is a controversial figure. he has moved saudi arabia forward in some areas, while
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moving it to greater repression in others. but the larger issue for washington was that america's foreign si -- trump's world view means from kim jong-un to angela merkel to mbs. this has led to the blind cub contracting of american foreign policy of saudi arabia. blockaded qatar, quarrelled with turkey and essentially kidnapped the prime minister of lebanon. all of these in large measure have failed. america's middle east policy should be based on its interests and values in the region and beyond and will never be per factually aligned with other countries. this requires nuance,
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sophistication and ceaseless high quality diplomacy. but that is the price of being the leader of the free world, a job we appear of late to have simply vacated. for more go to and read my "washington post" column this week. andlet get started. on friday night 17 days after jamal khashoggie was shown going into the saudi consulate in istanbul, saudi arabia finally admitted that cash ho te died there. 18 saudi nationals have been detained in the case. president trump in an interview yesterday with "the washington post" said obviously there has
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been deception and there's been lies in the khashoggie matter. but he praised crown prince mohammad bin salmon. today she is a senior fellow at harvard. she is now distinguished fellow at the counsel on foreign relations. a professor of international relations at the london school of economics, he's the author of making the arab world. martin, let me start with you, the crucial question it seems to me is can mohammad bin salman survive this? >> it's not clear. it's kind of the land of the seven veils, so we don't exactly know what is happening, but we
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can assume the shots are gathering, he alienated a lot of princes, under arrest, shaking them down, pursuing a -- and then taking down the highly respected grown prince, who is now under house arrest. so for sure, they're within the royal family, people who are plotting against him. secondly, his big agenda is a reform agenda, that's made him popul popular amongst his people, but now his reform agenda is going to be in question. partly because of the flight of capital, foreign investors will now be very scared to get involved, you can see that from all the trump outs from the investment conference, the investment conference that he's had next week. and on top of that, his ability to go forwararorward on reform caught up with his own concern of wanting to appear tough in the case of this onslaught.
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to reforming at this moment could be taken as a sign of weakness, personally, himself, i think he's more likely given the way that he acts to crack down around open up in this environment and cracking down as you have suggested is precisely the wrong thing to do. he needs to double down on reform if he ee's in any way toy to perform his credibility, which is what i expect. >> what does this look like from a reasonable perspective. saudi arabia is engaged in a war in gem men, it has block indicated qatar, it has had quarrels with lebanon, it's got a keep schism with turkey. what is his position in the region? i mean the case under mines the leadership of saudi arabia.
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this is a common sense, it undermines his position in the region. it's fighting multiple wars on down, multiple areas. where's the juice the boycott of qatar, this particular geo strategic privacy on iran is playing on many streets. and what i think we're going to witness in the next few months and the next few years is a new strategic fault line. president erdogan is trying to reclaim the -- remember istanbul was the seat of the khalifa, which is the guardian of the two holiest places and the birthplace of islam. fault lies in the region.
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not to mention the fact, i mean we're talking about jamal khashoggie case really tells us is it brought a lesson about them at least, not just saudi arabia and the arab world, i mean this notion of the just dictator, the notion of the authoritarian leader or modernizer, the cultive personality. that's the base loss of mismanage, deepening authoritarianism. it's surprising for me, fareed, that the crown prince mohammad, this is a man who is traveling a similar road that had been traveled by other dictators in the middle east, a road leads to nowhere, and is littered with mine fields for the people of saudi arabia and for the people of saudi arabia. >> the big question for the united states is what to do,
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saudi arabia is an important ally, it is the central banker of the world, so you have all the things you just heard. so what should the u.s. do? >> i am a bit more cynical in terms of martins and fawas. they may question this absurd narrative that's coming out of saudi arabia, but at the end of the day, the president is very transactional. we have seen that he has created, i don't hold him responsible for jamal khashoggie's death, but i do hold him responsible for an environment of immunity when he talks about slamming american reporters, when he stands behind saudi arabia so many days after these explanations are not credible. i think the administration absolutely is going to have to find some road forward here to quote unquote punish thought but
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i don't think that will mean withdrawing support. two points i want to bring in, one, this is a good day for erdogan, this is a good day for the supreme leader of iran. they can in fact sit and wait and see what saudi arabia will do. the turks i think, i'm a little mo more kcynical with martin. their economy is in trouble, so it will be interesting to see whether the new fault lips are here are as fawas put it really looking to change the middle east or whether we're going to see a doubling down of the kinds of fault lines that don't move societies forward, don't change the autocratic nature of the middle east.
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and we are bark with wendy
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sherman and martin, let me ask you, everyone when they look at saudi arabia, they say they have the leverage, the they're the strategy banker of oil, they buy all these arms from the united states. it should be pointed out that the number is not 1$110 billion and president trump says it's probably near $20 billion to $40 billion. >> the saudis have the arab to moderate the price of oil. we don't need their oil anymore but much of the world does. but we do need them to be in a position to pump oil, because on november 4, trump was proposing to taking is something like a billion barrel s of ail off the
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market. the saudis are difficult customers. they argue about contracts and stuff. they promised trump 100 billion, but there's only 100 billion in actual contracts. they need us more than we need them. there's no question about that, we are the ultimate protectors against their enemy against iran. the saudis, one of two term naturals that trump has based his strategy against iran off. the other one being central. the problem with mbs is that even though he wants to be our strategic partner against iran, or i should put it the other way, he needs us in that case, when we work with him against iran, he manages to do things, without consulting us, that only he
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help iran, so the war in yemen, which is an unmitigated disaster for the people of yemen is only advantaging iran. which for them coming in and supporting one of the groups there, the hodis. saudi arabia has been bogged down there since 2015 when he went against hariri, the prime minister of lebanon. he only helped hezbollah. when he puts a seat in qatar, he drives them into iranian arms. so every step of the way, hiss actions have undermined our earths to try to contain and roll back iran. what do you say when you say look, the man has allowed women to drive, he's helping the economy, a lot of these things
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are popular in saudi arabia particularly young people, and therefore we should be more understanding. >> that's what i would say, fareed, to a crown prince moment bin salman. saudi arabia is highly, highly conservative country. it's one of the most conservative countries in the arab world. it will probablying take three or for or five decades, what the crown prince is trying to do, he's in a hurry to consolidate his power. a more effective means would be what? institutionalized? nourish a healthy society. a last half is a healthy space to breathe, let them park, checks and balances because the what the congress has been trying to do is really
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transformations of governing by shocks. final points, i have, far re fareed, i want to take you -- foreign policy skechbt with it's values. and the united states was an hon nos broker. the only difference between donald trump and his predecessors, what donald trump has done, he has made the situation in the middle east much more dangerous than it is. and i know it's very difficult for some of your viewers to believe so. moving the american embassy to jerusalem, he deepened palestinian decembspair, it proy sewed t ee ee eed the seeds in
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east, all over the middle east, from turkey to iran to saudi arabia to egypt and on and on and on. >> dew, wendy, let me if i may just switch subjects with you, because you had a very big job at the state department, basically the number three job overseeing everything, another thing donald trump did this week was pull out of a treaty with the russia, who has signed with the soviet union, that ronald reagan has signed, on the grounds that russians were tweeting, which was true, they were trying to build a nuclear missile that could reach nato, given the fears that the baltics had, seems is a very aggressive move, did donald trump do the right thing to pull out of this treaty. this is a very aggressive move by donald trump, what i would hope is that the administration would sit with russia, sit with
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china, sit with members of the security counsel and say we all have to create a new arms control future where short range and long range missiles that are capable or carrying nuclear weapons we really will not proceed with. we have reasons to be very concerned about what china's doing because they haven't been part of the inf treatry, but to just pull out without any strategy of how we're going to move forward, is going to make us all less secure. this is all part of what's going on in the rearrangement of power structures in the world. the trump administration is very transactional. trump has never seen an arms agreement he doesn't like and he had never seen a war that he doesn't want too wage. so we are in a very dangerous situation where we are -- rather
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than doubling down to get more arms control and we're looking to create an environment where the risks of war are going up, the years since world war ii where we have used international institution to keep peace is being undertaken and undermined by the trump administration and creating a dangerous situation for america's security. fascinating conversation, can you all. i when we come back, we'll talk about that paper's relentless issues to get the answers to what really happened. t)
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this is not an explanation, it is a cover-up. that was ceo fred ryan's response for an explanation of why jamal khashoggie died. fred hyatt was the ultimate boss at "the washington post" and
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since i'm a columnist there he's mine too. he's he's -- i noticed there was an period initially when you guys were ferocious in your ability to get to the truth. nobody else was picking up, were you worried that this was going to get papered >> i don't think we were really thinking about a campaign, but at the beginning, we wanted to believe he was still alive and we wanted to feget the truth. and then, you know, two things are true about this, fareed. on the one hand, we're going to stick up -- "the washington post" is going to stick up for our own, just as we did for jason when he was in prison in iran and it's also true that i
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don't think we're saying or doing anything that we wouldn't do if jamal were a columnist for the "new york times," what we were reacting to was this unfathomly monstrous crime and attack on free expression. reare pushing for a true accounting which we have yet, and a true accountability for the people who are responsible. >> do you think we will get the actual sorry, do you think the turks will release the actual recording? how reare we going to know? >> it's a great question and i don't know, i mean eventually i think we will find out what happened. how quickly and how soon depends on how many people do the right thing.
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i meaning, right now, in saudi arabia, the person who's in charge of the investigation is essentially the prime suspect, and i think the rest of the world starting with the trump administration, and congress, and turkey, and the united nations, have to say look, this sshts a mystery without and an. people know what happened, tell us. and to turkey, if there's, you know, audiotape, let's hear it. let's stop playing the games, let's just get the truth out. >> do you think the trump administration and trump personally, his attitude towards journalists has created an atmosphere where this could happen? because as you know, the last few years have been exthe record flairly dangerous for journalists, many, many journalists who have been killed by governments this year. >> i think, again, you know, i would ask to keep two things in
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mind, or try to keep two things in mind, one is the people who were sporvel for killing jamal khashoggie, are the people who killed him and the people who ordered him killed. i think unquestionably true, when the united states doesn't stick up for the values that we at our best stand for. including democracy and free speech and freedom of expression and freedom of religion, then bad guys in the world start to feel like they can do things and get away with it. and we have seen as you say more and more of that, putin poisoning enemies in britain and china kidnapping perceived enemies in hong kong and elsewhere. and maybe saudi arabia thinking it can lure one of its diplomats in a foreign country and murder
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him and get away with it. i think the united states and all other countries and people who believe in basic humanity as well as the important values that jamal stood for have to say no, we can't get people get away with that. >> finally fred, do you think when you look at the situation, you're a distinguished foreign correspondent, you've written all over the world, do you think this is a hard tradeoff for the trump administration, thall-sta break saudi arabia is an important -- >> the u.s.-saudi alliance is important and the two people should be open to each other and try to understand each other. but i think first of all, mbs has not been or saudi arabia under this regime has not been a very useful ally to the united
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states. they have gone into this disastrous war in kbryemen, the have had this ridiculous flap with kenya. and the kind of instability that mbs is creating is counter to the interest of the united states and to the interest of the saudis and the u.s. saudi alliance. and if people who believe in having this alliance should want a regime that u.s. businesses and other governments can feel comfortable dealing with, not a regime that feels it can do something like this. and if i could just say one more thing, you showed the columns of jamal and some of the other editorials. we have had an incredible response, millions of readers, in both english and arabic, people subscribing, people
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sending us message, i just want to today thank you, we hear it, it really does make a big difference and i appreciate it. >> fred, pleasure to have you on. and we will be right back. a wealth of information. a wealth of perspective. ♪ a wealth of opportunities. that's the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management.
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now for our what in the world segment. this month in on a trip to tokyo. christine lagarde had a message for primary shinzo abe of japan.
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the signature policies for boosting growth seem to be revamping. in september, the japan, hit a new record, nearly 70,000 people over 100 years of age. it already had the most per capita in the world. and the number in the population is 69% older compared to 9% globally. in less than 50 years, the working population could shrink to nearly half. the relation to openings to applicants could reach an all-time high. some proposed solutions include worker robots or a free immigration system, but there's one woefully under used resource right at home. women in their prime have
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actually flooded the workforce in japan in recent years, the female labor force participation rate has surpassed that of the u.s. 32% of female workers are part-time. compared that to the same number of workers in the united states. why is this happening? discrimination is undoubtedly part of it. japanese women complain on being put on a mommy or noncareer track as opposed to a management track. part of the problem is japan's work culture, which notorious punishing and characterized by long hours. many women who want to have children feel they cannot participate in -- look at the amount of time japanese women spend in unpaid labor, close to
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four hours a day, and japanese men, just 41 minutes. if japan were able to match sweden's unemployment rates, it could add $571 billion to its gdp. abe knows this, in 2013, he pledged to bring women equitably into the workforce. for a deeply conservative leader of a highly traditional country set a lofty goal, 30% of women in the workforce by 2020. but japan is nowhere close to reaching that goal. in fact the -- women now hold just 4% of managerial positions according to bloomberg, that's cause genuine--the issue of
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bringing women more meaningfully into the workforce. it's important because it's the right thing to do. true, but vir chtue is not the japan should also be equal at work because the equal will actually depend on it. up next, does your car equal your politics? my next guest says researchers can tell a lot about you based on what you drive. if you drive a prius or anything in between, you wouldn't want to miss this conversation right after the break. - i get headaches.
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is technology with the power to change your life. life. to the fullest. a book that you're ready to share with the world? get published now, call for your free publisher kit today! all right, everyone, grab your number two pencils, we're going to do a pop quid.
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what are the qualities you think are most important for children. independent or respect for elders, self relienlt or obedient. curiosity or good manners, considerate or well behaved. so, do you answers skew to the left side of the screen? the first option? or the right, the second hospitalization in each of the pairs. my next guest says those answers can tell you a lot about political patrol cliroclivities. they have published "prius or pickup." thank you for coming on. if you picked the first of those
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options and we will put it up on the screen again, what does that tell us versus the second option? >> the first set of options on the left-hand side tell us you're fluid as we now say. and on the right-hand side they tell us you're fixed. the folks that are fluid tend to be people who embrace diversity, they embrace social change. they answer this very interesting questioning about whether or not the world is a big beautiful world, they say very much so. and folks on the right would say no, it is a world full of danger and we need to be careful to protect ourselves and our families. >> broadly it is liberals left and conservatives right. in a way it mirrors a very old
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division. human beings are, they are inhere inherently evil, we need order, proterksctions and stability. the liberals are more trust worthy, characterued as nye yoo -- naive. >> it is the alignment of world view with partnership that is really super charged our feelings about the other side. >> in a sense it seems as though that philosophical divide has now been layers on to a social or cultural divide. hence the title of your book. you're saying if you're a person
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that likes a prius you tend to be liberal. if you like pickup trucks you're more conservative. it is a social thing. >> social and cultural. i add in addition to preferences for what kind of vehicle to drive, the food you like to eat, the kind of neighborhood, the kind of whether or not you want to live in the city or the country. all of these markers of culture are now symbols that we wear on ourselves that when somebody looks at us now, they flow what we wear, eat, drink, the car we like to drive, what our politics are. >> why has that happened? >> there is a long answer, which is that over 50 years now the two political parties have appealed to voters based on certain kinds of issues. and the kinds of issues they have appealed to have increasingly, not exclusively, increasingly focused on what we
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describe as culture war issues related to race, family structure, sexuality and so forth. it so happens those are the kinds of issues that the two different world views are most concerned about and sort of most emotionally charged by. so the big shift has been the shift away from identifying our political identity around side of government, freedom of the economy, size of taxes, and now we define it more by cultural and identity issues. >> we do and that brings into play a world view we no longer say you like higher tax rates, i like lower. you're an enemy of the things i think make this country good and great. >> and the danger of this being
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rooted in culture and identity is that it is harder to compromise, how do you compromise on gay marriage or abortion. >> right, and not only are the issues inherently harder to compromise on, but when we have a politics that is this deeply identity based and cultural and emotion emotional, it means is that leaving the issues aside there is nothing about the other side that makes us want to compromise because we don't trust them. we don't believe they have the country's best interest at heart. we think they're acting in bad faith. if there is one thing that normal people can do, it is that i think we can all work harder to understand why we believe the things that we believe and why when somebody else who disagrees with us is not necessarily acting in bad faith, we might
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think they're wrong, their premises are wrong, we might remind ourselves that for the most part they are not even and bad people, they just have a different way of thinking about reality than we do. >> pleasure to have you on. >> thank you for having me. >> if you miss a show, go to for a link to my itunes pod cast. success is a numbers game. and you're not going to win if you keep telling yourself to wait. the more often that you choose courage, the more likely you'll succeed. the most inspiring minds. the most compelling stories. download audible. and listen for a change.
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traffic and roads... a mess, honestlyrents going up,le. friends and family moving out of state, millions of californians live near or below the poverty line. politicians like gavin newsom talk about change, but they've done nothing. sky-high gas and food prices. homelessness. gavin newsom, it happened on your watch. so, yeah. it is time for a change. time for someone new.
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hey, i'm brian stelter. on this hour, the saudi diplo t diplomatic crisis deepens, we will talk about it, and as you have seen, president trump is p parodying fo ining fox news. and who better than karl burnstein to join us at the end of the hour to talk about how all of the stories connect. midterm misinformation, it was two years ago this month, i