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tv   Fareed Zakaria GPS  CNN  January 20, 2019 10:00am-11:00am PST

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in these deals. >> i know the best people. i know the best deal makers. >> thank you so much for spending your sunday with us and our great panel and our amazing guests. fareed zakaria starts right now. this is "gps." the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. today on the show, the brexit hangover. 2 1/2 years ago the people of britain voted to leave the european union. this week, the house of commons voted down prime minister may's plan to do just that. so what happens now? i have a very special guest to talk about it all, tony blair, the former prime minister of the united kingdom. and a look at race in the
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america as the nation prepares to celebrate martin luther king, jr.'s birthday. aaron sorkin has turned the last three years changing ""to kill a mockingbird "into a broadway sensation. what that can teach us about race intolerance. but first here's my take. as we watch britain go through brexit, it's easy to view the decision to depart the european union as an act of foolishness, a self-inflicted wound that will impoverish britons for years to come. europe is after all britain's largest market, taking in half of the country's exports. losing special access to it is a high price to pay for some symbolic gains in sovereignty. the brexit debacle sheds a light on europe itself and one that sees it as stop working, for many of the people at its
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western european core. i say this as an ardent supporter of the european union, the u.s. and the eu have been the two main? gens behind a world based on open markets, liberty and law, human rights and global warfare. these values will likely be eroded if the strength and purpose of either of these centers wanes. for the last three decades the european project has wandered off course. what began as a community of nations cooperating to create larger markets, greater efficiency, more political stability became obsessed with two massive issues that have undermined its central achievements. the first was, perhaps, inevitable in the wake of the soviet union as collapse. the rapid integration of a vast number of new countries that were at a very different stage of economic and social development as the eu's core countries. since 1993 the european union has expanded from 12 countries
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to 28. while prior to this period, europe was mostly concerned with opening up markets, streamlining regulations, creating new growth opportunities. it now became a transfer union, a vast scheme to redistribute funds from prosperous countries to emerging markets. even in today's strong economy, eu funds account for more than 3% of hungary's economy and almost 4% of lithuanians. this gap between a rich and poor europe with open borders inevitably produced a migration crisis. for example, as in "foreign affair" from 2004 to 2014 about 2 million poles migrated to the u.k. and germany. and about 2 million romanians moved to italy and spain. these movements put massive strains on the safety nets of destination countries and provoked rising nationalism and nativism. the influx to europe in 2015
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mostly from the middle east must be placed in the context of these already sky high migrant numbers. and as can be seen almost everywhere from the u.s. to austria, fears of immigration are the rocket fuel for right-wing nationalists who then discredit the political establishment that they deem responsible for these unchecked flows. the second challenge consuming the eu has been its currency, the euro. launched more with politics in body, it has endured a deep structural flaw. it forces a unified monetary system on 19 countries that continue to have vastly different fiscal systems. that means when a recession hits, countries have few tools at their disposal. brexit should force britains to think hard about their place in the world and make the adjustments that will allow them to prosper. but it should also cause all europeans to take stock of their project, a great idea that has gone awry.
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the european union needs more than tinkering. it needs to return to first principles, find its central purpose and question what aspects of its current system are not working, not affordable or not manageable. while some americans seem to delight in this prospect, it is in fact bad for america, bad for its interests, bad for its values. for more go to and read my "the washington post" column this week. let's get started. let's now focus in on brexit and its implications. we have a special guest, tony blair. mr. blair served for more than years as prime minister of the united kingdom. he has been an outspoken critic of the idea of a british exit. he joins me from london. tony, pleasure to have you on.
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>> thanks, fareed. >> from the start you've been opposed to brexit. let am ask you just at the fundamental level, your case for it because it does seem to subvert the democratic process, doesn't it? the electorate had a chance to vote on brexit and there wasn't meant to be a do-over. >> no, that's absolutely correct. but i think what's happened is we've had 30 months of negotiation. the deal the government's presented has been voted down heavily, parliament is gridlocked. it's not clear there's any version of brexit that's going to command a majority. there's many different of brexit, and frankly our knowledge of what brexit really means has been vastly at large in the last 30 months. i don't think there's an unreasonable circumstance to take this back for final resolution to the british people. i peen, we're not asking anyone else what their view is. we're asking the british people.
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and i think given everything that's happened, given the circumstances we're in, that is not unreasonable. so that's the case if you like for a second referendum. and right now probably there isn't the support there in parliament for that either. on the other hand, there's no support for a proper brexit proposition, and there's no support for exiting without a deal. so i think as this goes on, it's more likely finally that people come around to the fact that in the end of this gridlock in parliament you've got to put it back to the people. >> and you've argued that there really isn't a kind of a soft brexit, or you can't fudge the issue. that either you are in europe or you are out. >> yeah, so here's the essential problem. in one sense this negotiation has never been a negotiation of the conventional sense. it's really a choice. and the choice is between a brexit that keeps you tied to europe's trading system because
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we've spent 4 1/2 decades in europe. we've been part of the single market, trading relationships have grown up on the basis of we're part of that unique european system. you either stay close to that in which case you're going to keep to europe's rules, in which case people are going to say why are you doing this brexit? or you say we're going to make our own rules, we're going to break free from europe altogether but in which case it's going to costuts short-term and economically long-term painful damage. so that's the problem with brexit. and the negotiation by the way over these last 30 months has been an attempt by the prime minister and the government of finding a way of having our cake and eating it, of being part of the european trading system without keeping to its rules. that was never going to become possible. that's finally become apparent.
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and so you either choose a brexit that's partial or painless. >> what do you say to these people that feel they're emmeshed in a system of which they don't have much control in the european union and particularly involving migration, which it seems to me has been the core issue for the populism fusing brexit and the western world in general. you know the numbers. 2, 3 million people from poorer countries in europe moved into places like britain and germany. this was before 2015 when you then had a million middle eastern refugees coming. and they say it's too much, too much control, and if that's what it means to be part of this european union, we need to assert sovereignty. >> the thing that's driving
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brexit all over europe is this issue to deal with migration, identity. these are big issues everywhere in the world today. so my ideal situation is a situation where britain thinks again but europe also thinks again. over these last 30 months we in britain have seen what the difficulties and complexities of brexit are. but frankly the rest of europe has seen its own politics turned upside down. the italrennian election, what's happened in hungary, france, germany, all over europe the same issue. so the sensible thing is for europe to take the strong measures necessary to control the migration properly wreincluding within europe. we have a freedom of movement principle, which is a very essential principle and most people welcome because you can move around europe easily, you can go work in different countries. people get that. the problem is when you get large flows of migration or you
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get the undercutting of wages. but these are problems you can deal with within the freedom of movement principle. so my ideal situation is where britain remains in europe but europe also reforms. i don't know whether that's possible, but i certainly think it should be one of the options on the table. and, you know, in the end there are problems, of course, with europe. i will say to people there are going to be enormous problems whenever you try to get a whole group of independent nations working together in a formal political structure. but none of these problems are reasons for breaking up europe. what influences me when i look at the world today is i see every month further evidence that power can shift east. you've got the rise of china. china's going to become an even more powerful country in time to come. its population is double the size of the entire european union put together. when you look at it -- actually, three times the size. when you look at it, in the world that's developing, you know, medium sized nations like
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britain, like germany, like france are going to have to band together in order to keep their interests and influence alive in the world and their values. so there are big geopolitical reasons, not just economic reasons for keeping europe together. but europe will be sensible if it also takes measures of reform. so this is where i think the politics can go. i hope we can go in that direction. >> don't go away. more with tony blare when we come back. we'll also ask him to look across the channel at what is going on in europe. do the protests in france and the weakness of angela merkel signal change there as well? we'll come back in a moment. to , use every possible resource, to fight cancer. and never lose sight of the patients we're fighting for. our cancer treatment specialists share the same vision. experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. and these are the specialists we're proud to call our own.
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the tony blair institute for global change in london. you've said, tony, you think the europeans should almost help britain not brexit. they should speak out. what do you think about the americans? it has been historically american policy to support a unified europe because there was a feeling this was the other great center of, you know, the rule of law and values like human rights and open trade and open politics. but the trump administration, certainly donald trump has openly cheered brexit. >> the debate i often have with people in the united states, if you think the big challenges we're going to face are how we deal with the fact that by the middle of the century you're going to live in a multi polar world for the power of china is
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very significant and large alongside the power of america and india as well, you've got three super powers by the middle of this century. in those circumstances the west should remain united and europe should stand alongside america because in the end, whatever our differences, there are interests we have in common. most important, there are values we have in common. we're countries that believe in democracy and freedom and the rule of law. these are important values in a world with one or the other centers of power, china is going to be challenging not just for power but also offering a different system of government. in those circumstances, britain, that's traditionally been the country that if you like, bridges atlantic most easily, it's damaging for america and not just for europe but i would say damaging for britain, too. all of these issues to do with independent nations wanting to assert their identity. we've got to resolve those without breaking up that essential structure of the
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european union that allows europe to be united and to be a key ally of the united states of america. this is my way of looking at the world because otherwise we're going to find as this century progresses and my children and grandchildren work out where they stand in the world, the west is going to be weaker. and that's bad for them and bads f for all of us. >> when you look at what's going on in france, how much does it dishearten you? here was macron who was seen as the one centrist reformist figure who was able to in this age of populism get elected, thrive, institute reforms passi passionately pro-europe and now it seems his presidency is crippled. >> he's making reforms that are difficult, and anyone's who's ever been in office and tried to make reform knows it's the
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hardest thing to do because what you find is everyone's in favor of reform in general but when it comes to particular reforms you get a lot of opposition. so he's got opposition now, but i personally think what he's trying to do for france is right. and, you know, all over the western world today people are struggling with the fact the world's changing fast. we're going to have a digital and technology revolution in my view that is the single biggest challenge policy makers are going to face over the next 10, 15 years and, you know, we're going to struggle with this and political leaders are going to struggle. but the art of political leadership is come out the other side with your reform intact and i hope he does that. but wherever you look in the western world today you see tension and difficulty. >> and what about angela merkel? do you think in retrospect her biggest mistake was to let in those large number of refugees in 2015, that without that she would still be secure, stable,
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popular? >> look, i think, you know, she's been chancellor for a long period of time. i think the refugee issue was a real problem and probably impacted her politics and indeed our politics, but she did it for extremely good motive and for good intensions. you know, we've got to -- we've got a deeper problem, which is that as the world changes and as you get these big migratory flows some people worry about their communities changing, whether they can retain their own traditional sense of identity, and you've got to be sensitive to those questions and you've got to manage that. and the thing about immigration that i learned in office is that immigration produces energy, vitality, it's actually a good thing for a country like britain. but people need to know there are rules around it, there are controls. and if you don't have rules you end up with prejudices. so this is why it's important
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when you're fashioning your immigration policy, people have got to know that at the same time you're accessing the benefits of immigration, you're also putting some structure around it that means they can keep control of it. and particularly, frankly, when you're getting larger numbers of refugees or migrants from majority muslim countries people then worry do people come in and share our values, you've got to be sensitive to it. now, that's not the say you've become anti-immigrant, but if you don't deal with these pressures, that's what then fuels the sentiment on the far right. >> always a pleasure to have you on, tony blaire. thank you so much for joining us on this important occasion. >> thank you. next on gps if you haven't heard the term 5g, you will soon. it's the new sellural activity that promises lightening fast connectivity for your cellphone. but might a hostile foreign government have the potential to see and hear everything you do? we'll tell you when we come back. there's little rest for a single dad,
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world" segment.
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lately you might have noticed a new battle front between some western countries and china. this month polish authorities arrested an executive of the chinese tech company huawei for spying. before that canadian authorities arrested their cfo. china has sense detained several canadians on so-called national security offenses, accused canada of white supremacy and sentenced a canadian prisoner in china to death. what in the world is going on? behind the headlines, this is a battle over who controls 5g, the next leap in mobile technology. it's difficult to overstate 5g's transformative potential. its networks will be up to 100 times faster than today's. that means we'll use our phones as the primary platforms to do everything, including watch video. but the real transformation could come from industry. 5g will transfer so much data so fast, machines will be able to talk to each other on a grand
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scale. this could spur the growth of automated factories, smart cities, driverless cars. 5g will make machine learning and artificial intelligence a daily reality for everyone. the u.s. government is well aware of this. according to axios a national security council official compared 5g to the invention of the gutenberg press. you can understand why the two largest economies in the world want to dominate this field. "the wall street journal" reports the u.s. is trying to convince its allies, including canada and poland, to block huawei for providing the tools that will power 5g. if the world's largest telecom equipment supplier provides the components of this new architecture to america and its other allies, the american government worries the company would build a so-called back door inside its gear.
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lowing huawei to send it back to beijing. think of "the new york times" reporting on the breach to name a recent example. now, imagine that with far more data at play and with the chinese company actually providing the gear. huawei, which is headed by the former people's liberation army engineer is accused of using bribery and technology theft in its assent. u.s. prosecutors are reportedly conducting a criminal investigation against the company for stealing robot technology from t-mobile, according to "the wall street journal." the company did not comment on the reports but denies previous allegations of wrongdoing, noting that a 2017 civil suit found no, quote, willful and malicious conduct." huawei's would never spy. "the new york times" says so far there is no hard proof that it has. yet the u.s., australia, new zealand have effectively banned
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huawei from 5g supply chains. other allies remain wary. there are solutions other than bans. take the uk, a november report notes the government setup an inspection center run jointpy by british counter intelligence and huawei that laboriously tests hardware and software for threats and vulnerabilities. this kind of inspection process may slow down the adoption of 5g, but perhaps that is for the best. the reams of data that 5g unleashes on the global networks will be vulnerable. we need better controls around the mountains of data we're piling up every minute. if data is the heart of the digital economy, it will need better protection from any source. next on "gps," aaron sorkin on turning one of america's most beloved novels into a play and what like "to kill a mockingbird" sheds on race in america today.
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on february 1, 1960, four college students made history. the young men, all african-americans sat down at a whites only lunch counter and refused when they were asked to leave. that was the beginning of the sit-in movement. that same summer a few states away in monroeville, alabama, a then-unknown writer named harper lee was getting ready for the publication of her debut novel. a book that delved deeply into the american south, race and justice. on july 11, 1960, "to kill a mockingbird" was released to the public. the following year lee won the pulitzer prize for the book and according to her publisher the book has now been translated
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into more than 40 languages and sold more than 40 million copies worldwide. in 1962 the book was turned into a major motion picture starring gregory peck who won an oscar. >> is this the man who raped you? >> well certainly is. >> so, after all that acclaim, how do you write a new version of the story for the broadway stage? well, that was the tough assignment that fell in the lap of the highly acclaimed writer aaron sorkin. his three-year labor of love is open now on broadway. the play is a huge success, playing nightly to sold out crowds and standing ovations. i asked sorkin to join me to talk about the play and what it says about race in america today, as the nation prepares to celebrate martin luther king jr.'s birthday. aaron sorkin, pleasure to have you on. >> great to be here. >> so why do you think "to kill
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a mockingbird" has become this sort of totammic book that every american high school reads? is there something about the quality of the prose, the subject matter? >> for most american high schoolers we read it in seventh, eighth, ninth. i should say for first for most white americans. it's our first time the hero wears glasses. it's the -- it's the first time that things don't work out the way they're supposed to. the way harper lee wrote the novel through the eyes of a child, it's a nice way in for us. and we all read it together. >> let me ask you about the challenge of taking this cherished, iconic novel, turning it into a play. there are two parts. first of all, at the skill of a
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writer what you did in terms of moving the trial to the start of the play is really extraordinary because the trial -- the first hurdle of the book is life in the south. and you cut to the chase right away. >> yeah. my first draft of the play wasn't very good. my first draft of the play was kind of an attempt to swaddle the book in bubble wrap and gently transfer it to the stage. it was a greatest hits album done by a cover band. after getting a few very smart notes from our producer, scott rudin, i threw that draft out and threw the attitude out as well that this should be an exercise in nostalgia or a museum piece or an homage to a book we all loved. i was going to write a new play. you did need to get to the trial faster. so i thread the trial throughout the story. >> in doing all this you ran
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afoul of the literary estate of harper lee. there's now a court case going on. which hinges on whether you've been true to the spirit of the book. in fact, harper lee approved of you, personally, as the author of the play. the issue is, you had to stay true to the spirit of the book. so is the idea that a judge is going to watch the play and determine whether or not this is true? >> well, first of all, fortunately, that's all been settled. there's no court case anymore. you're right, not harper lee but the harper lee estate. harper lee passed away about three years ago. the harper lee estate got ahold of an early draft of the play. they were not -- there's no they. a woman who runs the harper lee estate was not a fan of what i had done and sued claiming, as you said, that i had departed from the spirit of "to kill a mockingbird."
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the curious part of me wanted to see the case go to court so that a federal judge could define what the spirit of "to kill a mockingbird" is. i don't think there's a legal definition and no literary definition of that either and -- >> you remember the famous line about pornography. i can't define it -- >> but i know it when i see it. perhaps this judge would have resorted to that. but i think what audiences are finding now, and we've had a month and a half of previews and we've been running for about a month. while it is something new, while this play is new, it very much embodies the spirit of "to kill a mockingbird." what the federal judge was going to need to do in the southern district was -- you know, there was a complaint letter with, i think, about 80 examples of moments from the play where the estate was saying, atticus would
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never say this, atticus would never do this. so the judge was going to have to decide what a fictional character would and wouldn't do. we had offered to perform the play for the judge in his courtroom. and we had it -- there was an opportunity to get into the record books as the first play to close on opening night in the new york southern district. >> talk about the issues of race. you're dealing with a situation in which -- i talked about the play to my son, who's in college. i was saying how i thought it was terrific and my guess is this will be performed all over the country now. he said, well, colleges will find it difficult because using the "n" word in college is so taboo that even in the historical context it will be impossible. >> there's liberal use of the word in the play the way that it is in tom sawyer and in harper
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lee's book. so i would just say to these college students what i say to my own kid is there are words that are okay on a movie screen or on a stage that absolutely aren't okay in life. >> and it's historically accurate because that is how people spoke at that time. >> yes, it's historically accurate, but more important it's crucial that we see the casual cruelty that was going on. that people are using the word. they're using the word in front of african-americans and using it very -- and using it very casually. and it's important that they see that. i hope those college students you're describing do the play and discuss what we're discussing. up next, for seven years, president bartlett sat in the oval office presiding over america. the fictional commander in chief was much loved mostly because
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aaron sorkin wrote him that way. >> isis a time for american heroes and we reach for the stars. >> so what is sorkin's state on our nonfictional president and the words that come out of his mouth? oh, don't worry. voya helps them to and through retirement... ...dealing with today's expenses... college... ...while helping plan, invest and protect for the future. so they'll be okay... without me? um... and when we knock out this wall... imagine the closet space. yes! oh hey, son. yeah, i think they'll be fine. voya. helping you to and through retirement.
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we're back now with more of my interview with aaron sorkin, the creator of such hits as a few good men, sports night, the west wing, the newsroom and more. he has a new hit production of "to kill a mockingbird" on broadway. let me ask you about the nature of political rhetoric. you are famously known from "the west wing," "a few good men," you have this dramatic, eloquent style of writing you impute to
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political characters a certain kind of elegance. what do you make of the rettic of donald trump and what does it say about where we are today? >> you know, i'm not sure i can add anything to the conversation that hasn't already been said about the rhetoric of donald trump. it kaegs without question it doesn't come close to rising to the level of what someone in the oval office should be saying and how they should be saying it. the president also -- we don't have a monarch. the president is as close as we get. they are the voice and face of this country and it's what has so many of us depressed that that is the voice of this country. >> how do you respond to people, to him who he says, i'm the modern president. i'm speaking in this colloquial way because that's how people out there speak.
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he seems to have gotten through because of a certain amount of that. i'm not going to have a facade, i'm going to speak like a normal person. >> first of all, that's not how people out there speak. there are cruddy people out there and i guess that's how they speak. but that's a real putdown of the people he claims to represent, that they speak at and think that way. second, it is not the role of the president to stoop to the lowest common denominator and try to represent that. it's the role of the president to try to elevate us all. we have had presidents, both republican and democrat, who have been fantastic at doing that. who can put a lump in our throat, who can give us goose bumps and appeal to the better angels in our nature. donald trump appeals to the very worst in the worst of us. and it's not a strategy, and
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it's not a philosophy, it's just the best he can do. that is who he is. z >> but let me ask you what he does do. the way i think about it is he points to the world's cultural varieties and talks about them how they think about it. emotional rhetoric works a lot better than analytical rhetoric. people vote from their gut rather than from their brain. how should democrats, what is the emotional -- what is the way democrats do it? i think democrats answer often by having a 20-point program that was approved by the brookings institute, which is very sensible, but it's not going to move people. >> no, it's not. but barack obama was able to move people, and john f. kennedy was, and bill clinton was. you can do it. you can make people understand
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that there's more that unites us than divides us. you can swat away some of the differences we're told to be scared of and paint a picture of a tomorrow that's better than yesterday. honestly, it's good speechwriters is what you need. >> when you listen to democrats, do you feel like they're speaking the way that they should? do you want to go in and write speeches for some of them? >> they're better speechwriters than me when i hear democrats. it depends which democrat. >> tell us, who do you like? >> i'm not sure i want to do that. i like kamala harris a lot, i like joe biden a lot. i really like the new crop of young people who were just elected to congress. they now need to stop acting
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like young people. >> okay. >> it's time to do that. there is a -- i think if there's a great opportunity here, now more than ever, for democrats to be the non-stupid party, to point out the difference. that it's not just about transgender bathrooms. that's a republican talking point they're trying to distract you with. that we are -- that we haven't forgotten the economic anxiety of the middle class, but we're going to be smart about this, we're not going to be mean about it, and that we can go back to being the america -- my father who passed away a few years ago fought in world war ii. and he, like most people from
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his generation, from the greatest generation, he doesn't tell a lot of war stories. you kind of have to pull it out of him. but he would talk about his unit going into a village in europe, and you could hear villagers say, thank god the americans are here. people don't say that right now, and it's because of donald trump. we can go back to being the "thank god the americans are here" people. we can go back to being the people who, when exhausted, impoverished and terrified refugees with just the shirt on their back have made it to our border, we can go back to being the people who reach across and give them a hand and a hot meal and say, welcome to the new world. that's who we are, that's who we should be. >> aaron sorkin, a pleasure to have you on. >> thank you so much, fareed.
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it's a now there's one store that connects your life like never before store. the xfinity store is here. and it's simple, easy, awesome. it was a rough week for prosecutors of the international criminal court in the hague as judges rule on one of its highest profile cases. and it brings me to my question. the former president of which of these countries was acquitted of crimes against humanity charges by the icc this week? was it cambodia, the ivory coast, bosnia and her skblrks egovina and serbia.
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>> you can sign up for a free trial and watch gps anywhere that you can watch youtube. and don't forget we are always on cnn go. the answer to the gps challenge question is b. on tuesday lauren bagbo was cleared of all federal charges by the court. the charges stemmed from his alleged role in post-production violence which began when bagbo was defeated at the polls in 2010. he conceded to his election rival and 3,000 people were killed in the violence that ensued. in spite of 300 court days dedicated to the prosecution and the filing of thousands of documents, the courts said the prosecutor failed to submit sufficient evidence to demonstrate the responsibility
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of mr. bagbo. with the acquittal, there are hopes that bagbo will make a political comeback ahead of the 2020 elections. but for now, he is still locked up in the hague pending appeal. thank you for being part of my program this week and i will see you next week. \s. hello, everyone. thanks so much for joining me this sunday. i'm fredricka whitfield. we begin with the president's legal attorney. rudy giuliani with feuding reports that mr. cohen was instructed to lie to congress, but also saying in detail what he was planning to say in that testimony. giuliani spoke at length with our jake tapper on "state of the union." >> did anyone on the trump team talk to michael cohen about