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tv   CNN Newsroom With Brooke Baldwin  CNN  November 5, 2019 11:00am-12:00pm PST

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>> announcer: this is cnn breaking news. jooshgs here we go, you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin. thank you for being here. after weeks of being called secret proceedings the how released more proceeding from the impeachment inquiry one from u.s. ambassador to the echt u gordon sondland. the other witness others talked so much about for his part in helping put pressure on ukraine. reading the excerpts we see what he told house committees. reading one exchange in which ambassador sondland was asked how rudy giuliani was viewed. the president's personal attorney "accused of conducting a shadow foreign policy, a
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parallel foreign policy in ukraine. according to the transcript, what sondland says. again, people usually smiled when they heard rudy's name, because he was always swirling around somewhere. question, yeah, but, i mean, he was causing serious issues in the u.s. relationship with ukraine. did you raise those concerns with sondland? listen, state department was fully aware of the issues and little they could do about it if the president decided he wanted his lawyer involved. question, does that include secretary pompeo and his counselor? sondland, my speculation, is, yes, they hit a brick wall when it came to getting rid of mr. giuliani. go to cnn senior congressional correspondent manu raju on the hill and reading through this as we all have. talk about the significance of what i just read. giuliani's perceives and how aware secretary pompeo was of all of this and your other key takeaways? >> reporter: yeah. it speaks very clear this effort
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to get a meeting with the ukrainian president and president trump is something the ukrainian president zelensky had sought, but since he was inaugurated earlier this year. that was essentially conditioned on this effort by rudy giuliani to push for this public announcement that the president sought also as public announcement to, for an investigation that could help the president politically. sondland was careful not drawing a direct relation to the president but does say it was rudy giuliani, the president's demand that deal with giuliani first before moving forward with any ukrainian meeting. a condition for having this meeting. one excerpt they talk about this giuliani effort. he's asked, said this, you said in your statement on page 8 referring to his opening statement, did not understand mr. giuliani's agenda might have also included and effort to prompt ukrainians to invest gays
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vice preside joe biden or his son. why did you think either of those activities is problematic? sondland answered i believe i testified it would be improoper to do that. illegal? the question, i'm not a lawyer but i assume so. the question goes on, sir, one last question. do you believe with regard to burisma the effort by giuliani to investigate burisma was an impomper inquiry. answer i think i testified it would be improper. >> illegal, correct? >> again, he says i'm not a lawyer i don't know the law exactly. it doesn't sound good. even here, one of the president's, his own appointee, someone who was in charge of diplomatic relations in the european union raising concerns about this effort to deal with, push for these investigations at a key time in relations with this country and as aid was
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withheld. nearly $400 million in military aid congress approved. he wasn't clear why that aid was withheld and said never able to get a straight answer but makes clear this is why this meeting was withheld because of his effort by rudy giuliani. something he raised concerns about. brooke, there are a lot of questions still about sondland's own testimony. he downplays conversations he had with the president. said he never heard the president directly say there should be an announcement of public investigations. we've heard from other witnesses including tim morrison of the national security council, and a top diplomat in ukraine testifies otherwise saying sondland told morrison president trump actually wanted a public announcement of an investigation into the bidens and the 2016 campaigns. there's discrepancy what the president was pushing for and two different accounts than what gordon sondland is saying here. we'll see if he ultimately asked to clarify that of it. significant this is a top
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diplomat in the european union saying the president was pushing for rudy giuliani to deal with these investigations. push for these investigations, to be announced by ukraine before this effort to build relations between the two countries could take shape. >> to your point about the contradictions. why we've heard the word perjury floated around amongst folks up on capitol hill, and certainly they have been talking about hauling him back and questioning him more. thank you very much. going to kylie atwood with a key excerpt what ambassador sondland told the ukrainians. kylie, what do you know? >> reporter: yes. at the end of this testimony from ambassador sondland, there is an appendix added by himself and his lawyers after they reviewed the transcript of this testimony, and in that appendix we are getting more clarity on what ambassador sondland remembers. he said that his memory was refreshed after seeing the testimony from a top white house
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official on russia, tim morrison, and the top u.s. diplomat in ukraine, who both said he was one of the folks, ambassador sondland, was someone that told both tim morrison and the ukrainians that the u.s. security assistants for ukraine would not be lifted, would not be released, until they publicly announced investigations into 2016 and the bidens. so in this appendix ambassador sondland says that he does now recall a meeting with the ukrainian official in early september on the sidelines of vice president pence's meeting in warsaw with ukrainian officials and says, "i now recall speaking individually with mr. yurmac and said resumption of aid would likely not occur until decrying an anti-corruption statement we have discussed for many weeks. the important thing here, brooke, he goes on to say he
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doesn't recall how he came to the conclusion that this security assistance wouldn't be released until there was that public statement saying, i do not specifically recall how i learned this, but i believe that the information may have come from either mr. giuliani or from ambassador volker who may have discussed this with mr. giuliani. so what we see ambassador sondland doing here is pointing fingers directly at rudy giuliani, but one of the key things to consider is that ambassador sondland had multiple conversations with president trump. we know in one of those discussions he told lawmakers that president trump said there was no quid pro quo. but trump also told him that he wanted to see the ukrainians go to the mic and publicly say they were announcing this investigation. brooke? >> this is a lot. cnn legal analyst and former prosecutor and a former nationl security analyst who held several high-level positions on
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president obama's national security council. all right. i want to go through this precisely and slowly for everyone. following us, those following us. get your reaction to what kylie first reported amended testimony from gordon sondland. i was reading page 8, i don't recall, i don't remember, ex meeting with the ukrainians an suddenly now is recalling according to new reporting, and, oh, wait. there was perhaps quid pro quo not just with this white house meeting but withholding military aid. what's that about? >> the key worlds he is "refreshed." caught by the other witnesses who called me out on this patently unbelievable thing i testified about before. trying to undo some of the damage he did in this prior testimony to himself. effective? it's not as good as telling the truth the first time. >> okay. >> usually if prosecutors or investigators give you a chance to correct your testimony, that's fine? >> most of the time you get a pass.
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>> okay. to you. let's go all the way back. page 2, we highlighted this top of the show. the role of rudy giuliani. the president's personal attorney in all of this. right? how how much did secretary of state mike pompeo know about him. in this line, gordon sondland, the question, did you ever discuss rudy giuliani with secretary pompeo? he says only in general terms. question, what did you discuss? answer, that he's involved in affairs and pompeo rolled his eyes and said, yes, it's something we have to deal with. >> to be diplomatic, this is gross negligence on behalf of the secretary of state. ambassador sondland, by the way, still employed by the u.s. government, this man is still access to classified information and managing the staff and supposedly representing the united states with foreign officials. let's just take that as a reminder. >> yes. >> this whole notion that the secretary of state and the entire state department should just smile and nod and support rudy giuliani because the president wanted them to is gas
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lighting. the secretary of state, ambassador sondland, kurt volker and everybody else had options. secretary of state pompeo, his job is uphold the constitution. not is supports the president's ego or agenda. and any of these officials could have expressed concerns. sondland said i'm nots a loyal. is it legal or not. did he talk with a lawyer? this defense there is nothing these officials could do really doesn't hold water for anybody that actually worked in u.s. government to advance foreign policy. >> there's a lot of disagreement across the witnesses in this case and the parties in this case. one thing seems everyone agrees on, rudy's presence was a big problem. no matter where you come from. interesting to see the evolution in sondland's statement. opening statement, disappointed to find out i had to go through rudy, and in this crypt, rudy
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was insuch white house. much stronger. bad news, nobody was ever willing to go into donald trump and say this guy's presence is a problem. >> skip ahead, actually to when he finally picks up the phone. he, gordon sondland picks up the phone and calls president trump because of a text exchange with bill taylor. taylor is like, why are we withholding military aid for potentially dig eing up information on a political opponent? alarm bells ringing. sondland gets on the phone with the president. read part of the transcript. he says, sondland says, there are all kinds of rumors. i knew in my few previous conversations with the president he's not big on small talk i would have one shot ask. are you doing x because of x or y because of 16789? page 6. what do you want from ukraine? as i recall he was in a very bad mood. it was a very quick conversation and he said i want nothing. i want no quid pro quo. i want zelensky to do the right thing. i said what does that mean?
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he said i warrant hnt him to doe ran on and that was the end of the conversation. i wouldn't say hi hung up on me but almost like he hung up on me. the president is like, no quid pro quo, no quid pro quo. >> but get what i want. >> sondland got this information from somewhere. we have all of this witness testimony and from other officials that sondland made a direct link between investigations and a white house visit, for example, and potentially security assistants in front of ukrainians in this meeting with john bolton, and i don't think sondland came up with this on his own and he clearly had some indication whether from the president, mick mulvaney or someone else there wasn't just one quid pro quo. according to bill keller, everything, according to written testimony, was linked to this statement, and it's talked about in these depositions. the statement, to get ukrainians to publicly talk about burisma in the 2016 election. kurt volker says it made him uncomfortable but he still
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worked on this with rudy giuliani and with the ukrainians and the statement, announcing information warfare. u.s. government officials were testifying under oath they asked the ukrainians to issue a statement to influence u.s. public opinion about politics. this is a watershed moment. as concerned as they were and disappointed, they were still actively engaged in these activities and testified they were under oath. >> and you mentioned kurt volker. we have his transcript thanks to this house committee and have much more to go through. don't move. we'll continue through key excerpts from some these testimonies from sondland and volker and why this matters, big picture. you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin. special coverage continues right after this. chevy's the only brand... to earn j.d. power dependability awards... across cars... trucks... and suvs. four years in a row. since more than 32,000 real people... just like me. and me.
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back with special coverage. you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin. a superb envoy kurt volker. he quit before testifying's showing trump was pushing to conduct political investigations. for this up to phil moting ima.
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talk to me about key bits of the volker testimony? >> reporter: most interesting about his testimony the window it provides into both on the u.s. side and on the ukraine side. how rudy giuliani rose to the point he did. where he became essentially the focal point of ukraine policy. not from official or regular channels but ukrainians thinking they needed to talk to kurt volker to get anything to the president to lock in a visit to the white house with the president and how to move forward on funding. one piece republicans telegraphed over the course of the last couple of weeks since his testimony say makes clear the president didn't do anything wrong in regards to a quid pro quo. kurt volker in his testimony says, to my knowledge the news about a hold on security a assistance did not get into ukraine circles until the end of august. by that time we dropped the idea of even looking at a statement. he's talking about in the statement, brooke, you've been going over it in terms of
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discussions between u.s. officials and ukrainian officials with rudy giuliani kind of on the outside weighing in about ukrainian officials releasing an official statement talking about the 2016 election and potential investigations into burisma, the company that had hunter biden on its board. here's where that runs into a problem. you've talked also about the addendum to gordon sondland's testimony. in that addendum, after that time frame, volker's understanding the statement had been dropped, a week later, re-read this excerpt. it's important. sondland says i now recall individually speaking with the top ukrainian official i said resumption of u.s. aid would likely not occur until the anti-corruption statement we discussed many weeks. in other words it was volker's understanding and impression and volker advised ukrainian's drop the idea of the statement. wouldn't be good to get involved in a political matter in a statement based on volker's testimony and based on volker's
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knowledge essentially was pushed aside. sondland is saying in new testimony is he brought that back to the table after that fact. i think why this is all important now is individuals who heard the testimony of kurt volker came away saying no direct line to the president on this even though the statement looked untoward eventually it was dropped and ukrainians entire time did not know aid was suspended according to volker. sondland is saying with his addendum to original testimony is in fact after the fact i went ahead and brought it back up again making sure military assistance was contingent on said statement. two things working. volker's testimony is an excellent window how it was playing out and addendum cannot be overstated. it is very, very important primarily because a lot of republicans were listening to kurt volker's testimony saying clear evidence this was not on the ukrainian radar and wouldn't have been a quid pro quo and l
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sondland saying i brought it up myself and brought it back into play. >> thank you. glad you brought in up. ellie, before i jump to you, you made a great point at commercial break. saying shadow or parallel foreign policy. this was on policy. right? >> this literally has nothing to do with foreign policy. underlined it. people with government titles were involved, this was a misuse of government resources to advance a personal political agenda. striking to me is someone who worked in government from these testimonies is these are two people who knew ethics rules, security rules and had access to every resource possible to express concerns, yet still were working with rudy giuliani to implement this personal investigation. they knew that this was undermining foreign policy, brooke. you read what kurt volker wrote.
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what marie yovanovitch wrote and called gordon sondland for advice. they knew what they were doing was harmful to advancing foreign pels yet keep doing it. stop using republican talking point this is an foreign policy. mick mulvaney said quid pro quos happen all the time. kniss wasn't foreign policy instead it undermined it. >> and brought you mulvaney. jump there. chatting, you said get through the end of the volker testimony some of this was going through the president's chief of staff? >> yeah. about an hour ago we learned that now they want to talk to mick mulvaney. this testimony from volker gives an idea why. not everything went through mulvaney but he absolutely is involve ared in some of this back and forth between the players here. i think this will give a road map to why congress wants to talk to mulvaney. kurt volker agrees with sam's take on the foreign aid. he gives an window into the foreign aid and said the pros. pentagon, military, civilian,
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state, all agree the foreign aid was really important. had to go to ukraine. the hold unusual, holding it back unusual and no reason ever given why. so right there, whether it was ever communicated over to the ukrainians or not, and phil pointed out seemingly it was, there was an effort to withhold it. >> all this detail coming out. big picture this to me. fast-forward some weeks. public testimony. how does this play out? why does this matter in terms of potential impeachment of the president? >> let me give a security perspective and then turn to ellie on the legal perspective. even if it's all we have, a major downside rick for the health of our government going forward. two people testified yesterday ambassadors are used for political purposes, people are resigning and the credibility of actual u.s. government officials working on foreign policy undermined because of this politicization process. regardless what happens next, our department of state is
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already hamstrung by what's happened. >> i think we're seeing a prosecutorial approach to building the case. former prosecutors colleague of mine working on this. building a case piece-by-pace. i won't say shadow foreign policy but a group of rudy and his pretenders running things and there was a quid pro quo and comes through in some form of another from virtually every witness. >> okay. thank you for now. appreciate that. stand by. we have new excerpts coming in. one of the big headlines here, u.s. envoy revises his testimony to describe what's essentially a quid pro quo involving ukraine. stick around. i'm brk booke baldwin, and this cnn special live coverage. people, our sales now apply to only 10 frames.
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we are back with our breaking news. one of the biggest headlines so far the former ambassador to the eu changed his testimony to describe a quid pro quo involving the trump administration and in aid to ukraine for exchange for a public announcement into investigation on theed biens. in short, vital aid to ukraine was actually held up until they investigated the bidens. david singer, national security correspondent for the "new york times." your reaction to that big, old piece of news first and foremost? >> it doesn't surprise me coming
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awe an airplane at dulles airport sunday and i ran into ambassador sondland who was coming back to the u.s., and i asked him whether he was here to testify and he basically said i just want all this to be over to get back to work. well, the big question that comes out of this testimony is, what kind of work was he doing? because the ambassador to the european union is not normally responsible for ukraine. so he was clearly put right in the middle of this task as a basically a political appointee of the president's. a big supporter during the campaign. to make this deal happen. he suddenly recalled that, yes, there was a quid pro quo. >> yes. >> the real big question it raises is, since we have all of these state department officials who now agree there was a quid pro quo, why doesn't their boss, mike pompeo, say that there was one? >> note to self in the hot seat and run into david singer at the airport, you will, you will face
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questions. love that about you. let me move on to, of course, i read your piece all about secretary mike pompeo talking about his role and how aware he was. my question is let's start on the revolutions that pompeo had direct knowledge of the favorite phrase, shadow foreign coles, how he appears to have enabled it? >> well it is sort of remarkable. if you asked anybody at the state department including secretary of state pompeo about what our policy was towards ukraine during this time period, brooke, the answer would be, we're fully supporting them to help push off the russians from their own interference. and one of the things most striking to me and my colleague ed long as we were working on this profile on secretary pompeo was that during the time he was cia director he fully endorsed the finding that the russians had been behind -- >> right. >> -- the election. he did so in testimony.
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he did so in cia statements. suddenly, last month, he was out there saying, well, it's perfectly reasonable to go examine the question of ukraine's involvement, while there's no evidence of that involvement. >> what's that about? >> what that tells you is that throughout the state department he was sort of the linchpin where he understood what rudy giuliani was doing. he understood what the president wanted, which was a public statement from the ukrainians they were reopening an investigation about election interference and we investigating vice president biden's son. that's what this entire diplomatic effort and the quid pro quo were all about and now we have ambassador sondland basically concur with what we heard from four or five of mike pompeo's other diplomatic appointees. they're all now in agreement there was a quid pro quo set up. the only two people who said
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there were not at this point or would not acknowledge that there were is secretary pompeo and president trump. >> see how that could change over time. david singer, appreciate you as always, and your intrepid reporting here. >> thank you. >> a quick break. more on breaking news coverage after this. for all of the heroes who serve us, t-mobile is here to help serve them. that's why we're offering 50% off family lines
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we are back with more breaking news on this terse afternoon. the deal, we are getting a transcript from congress one of the key testimonies from the last couple of weeks. eu ambassador and trump inaugural donor gordon sondland. so we know he has recently refreshed his testimony from initially when he was going into quid pro quo and how that only pertained to the president saying yes to the zelensky meeting over the white house instead of saying yes why they withheld the military aid. why did he refresh? go to kylie atwood covering that piece's this. who did he talk to? >> reporter: the night before his testimony ambassador gordon sondland told lawmakers he called secretary of energy rick perry.
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the reason for making that phone call is he wanted to refresh his memory with regard to a july 10th meeting at the white house. fiona hill, the former russia top adviser to president trump described that meeting to lawmakers as a pretty tumultuous one in which the ukrainians were having discussions and bolton cut the decisions short and that's because during that discussion there was a mention of the investigations and biden brought up during those meetings, and bolton then after that meeting told fiona hill he did not want to be a part of this drug deal that was going down and being orchestrated by chief of staff mick mulvaney and by the u.s. ambassador to the eu gordon sondland. now, in his testimony, sondland says he doesn't remember it that way and tells lawmakers, "he thought it was a great meeting and we all left happy." now, the bottom line here, brooke, there is other elements
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of what went down in that july 10th meeting at the white house that are a little complicated. we also heard from alex vindman, a white house official, tell lawmakers just last week he cull h actually told sondland it was inappropriate to mention these investigations into biden in 2016 with the ukrainians and that fiona hill backed up his allegations, his statements there, it was inappropriate. we do not see ambassador sondland get into any details as far as the testimony that we have been able to review thus far with regard to that conversation, but, brooke, bottom line here is that ambassador sondland had to refresh his memory the night before in calling secretary perry and then he also refreshed his memory by adding this appendix added to his testimony transcript after the fact, after he saw what had come out from other u.s. officials regarding this policy to ukraine. and at the crux of that is that
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he now is refreshed his memory that he did tell ukrainian officials that it was likely that they would not be getting the security assistance unless they publicly announced there would be an investigation into biden and 2016. there are key elements what he initially said changing here as he's forced to look at what the other folks who were involved in these discussions were telling lawmakers. >> kylie, thank you. not only did sondland call rick perry, sam and ellie, to refresh his memory, i guess, day before his deposition, this other key piece. sondland told the committee he had a brief exchange with president trump during a white house gathering where the president told him, i quote, go tell the truth. the man was under oath the first go-round. correct? >> i'm having a hard time understand sondland mind-set. goes in front of congress under oath. leaves out a very important detail and only when donald trump tells him go tell the
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truth he adds in this detail that by the way donald trump will not like. the detail was that it was a quid pro quo. >> rooting out corruption overseas, a sitting u.s. ambassador who has to be told to tell the truth. ostensively leave this up to the lawyers he may have perjured himself in front of congress, a federal crime punishable by jail and lying about the target of the investigation. so many levels, what does this do for the credibility of our government officials just from a rule of law and enforcement standpoint j standpoint? i was part of congressional investigati investigations. no one has to be reminded to tell the truth. it's expected. and we don't know if other parts will be amended. there are serious gaps in sondland the written, this testimony about the july 10th meeting and the fact he said no concerns were ever expressed to hill. we have vindman, fiona hill, and others testifying quite the
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opposite. we'll see if his selective memory gets refreshed and other points as well. there's a lot of discrepancies between what he told investigate is and others have said. >> go tell the truth. >> don't lie to congress. >> let's hope everyone does that. guys, thank you very much. more on this breaking news. first, nine members of an american family, mothers, their little children, killed in a horrific attack near the mexican border. was this a case of mistaken identity? a targeted attack? talking live to a family member of the victims about what they know.
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itreat them all as if, they are hot and energized. stay away from any downed wire, call 911 and call pg&e right after so we can both respond out and keep the public safe. a brute's killing unprovoked claimed the lives of a family of nine innocent americans living in mexico. three women, six children two of whom were just babies. not even a year old. all murdered. some even burned alive and from the same more's community mormon community. the family was ambushed traveling through the northern state of sonora and believe the attack was a possible pace of mistaken identity. the family was traveling in a three-car caravan. other children in the car managed to escape and run for
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help, but when the other bodies were discovered all that was left was bullet-riddled cars and charred remains. the fbi offered to help with this investigation and president trump called on the country's president to let the u.s. help him "wipe cartels off the face of the earth." the families remains returned to the family ranch. with me now on the phone is trish, october aunt of one of t victims, mother of 13. i am so sorry for your loss. >> thank you. i appreciate that. >> if i may, i would like to begin with the children who did survive who ran. to my understanding, there are seven children in the hospital? how are they? >> there's five children in the hospital. >> five. >> there are -- they are -- there was two that are not wounded as far as bullets, and
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the other five have had bullet woonts and so they were life-flighted to the nearest hospital. >> got it. so five in the hospital, two others -- >> the baby of christina was unharmed as well. >> wow. have you been in touch with them or anyone who has been? are they -- how are they? >> i have. they're devastated. my oldest sister lost her oldest child and daughter. that is my niece donna raye langford, the mother of 13. it was a miracle she had seven of her children escape. that they all could escape. >> oh, trish. >> yeah. this is absolutely devastating.
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a mean and senseless act and something has to be done, and we are all coming together and praying and i am -- i'm very grateful that i could be that spokesperson for my entire family. family members of mine are incredible. i mean, beyond incredible, and they are of good faith. these women were great mothers. they gave their life for their children and it's unexplainable. >> i mean, trish, i hear you on unexplainable, but how could this happen? what happened? who did this? >> yeah. how could it happen? yeah. it needs to not happen. it's the lawless element that
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goes unchecked in mexico. it's disgusting. and what happened was these three women can caravanning and dot the thing caravanning together knowing of the drug cartel in mexico. they'd nerve her a run-in with them. the cartel did not have any problems with them. i talked to a family member who has said that, you know, it's been, like, over 100 years, they've had no issues. so they are farmers down there. they are generous. they are kind. they love where they're at. two of the women were going out to the united states to their origin of homes, and the other woman who is my niece was going to a wedding, and they all lived together in the suburban -- the family member who is the brother to my niece's husband had -- i
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talked with him on the phone, and he wants to believe, the family wants to believe, that they didn't know that these women were coming up around the corner, and they were just, they had attacked them, and they are hoping that they were thinking they were somebody else, and they had had a war the night before, which the family did not know about. so it was -- in the morning time. >> yeah. >> and they were all hiding in bushes and were on foot. >> we are sending love and light to you and your family and, of course, to all the children who managed to survive. many of whom won't have family members as they continue on, but i appreciate you, and just thank you so much and, again, i'm so sorry. >> thank you. i can say that the whole family
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really does appreciate everybody who's reaching out. we actually feel really blessed. >> thank you. we'll be right back. treats bleeding disorders like hemophilia. so victor can keep doing what's in his blood. at bayer, this is why we science. they give us excellent customer otservice, every time.e. our 18 year old was in an accident. usaa took care of her car rental, and getting her car towed. all i had to take care of was making sure that my daughter was ok. if i met another veteran, and they were with another insurance company, i would tell them, you need to join usaa because they have better rates, and better service. we're the gomez family... we're the rivera family... we're the kirby family, and we are usaa members for life. get your auto insurance quote today.
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. this is cnn breaking news. you are watching cnn on this tuesday afternoon. i'm brooke baldwin. thank you for being here. major breaking developments in the impeachment inquiry as the
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transcripts of two more pivotal witnesses are released. first you have special envoy to ukraine kurt volker. there on the left side of your screen, and ambassador to the european union gordon sondland on the right. this is key today. volker quit before testifying and released text messages inkaeding some of ambassador sondland the involvement in u.s. policy. get to volker in a second but focus on sondland who denied a quid pro quo when confronted about it in released text messages. and told house committees in amended testimony that there was a quid pro quo. that there was a quid pro quo involving military aid to ukraine. sondland reveals more details, how having a presence in rudy giuliani was in the u.s. policy with ukraine. sondland speaking here, "again people usually smiled when they heard rudy's name because he was always s