that people will now finally accept that the investigation was started in good faith using the right methods and that none of these conspiracy theories about wiretapping, putting spies in this camp had anybody merit in the first place. >> and then, josh, what about the second piece here, that the i.g. finds nothing regarding carter page undercutting and what's behind the mueller investigation? >> this appears to undercut that from the beginning. look at this reporting, that said, and what is coming in the inspector general's report, it isn't necessarily a clean bill of health for the fbi. we expect according to the "new york times" reporting the inspector general will be critical in the way fisa was handled specifically we reported last week about an fbi lawyer no

longer there involved in allegedly altering some type of document. no indication that that actually would have swayed the judge or the court or the actual substance of that document, but nevertheless, this will be fodder for the president, and then also an issue of one of the people that the president and his allies slammed for quite some. i. bruce ohr, doj lawyer, the "new york times" saying he's expected to be criticizing for operating without knowledge of his superiors. i look at this reporting, appears as though this is going to really undercut some of the main criticisms from the president there was a deep cabal, deep state to do speak inside the fbi works against him. >> josh and jennifer, stand by. let me get more news in. also from the "new york times" today, the paper is breaking a story on the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani. his dealings in ukraine, at the heart of the impeachment inquiry. the "new york times" reports this afternoon that as giuliani was pressuring the ukrainian

government to conduct an investigation on joe biden and the 2016 presidential election, that giuliani was meantime also seeking hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from ukraine's government officials. so let's go straight to one of the reporters who broke the story. michael roughfield on the investigative team. thank you for jumping on with me. you tell me what you're learning about what giuliani was doing, sounds like without an employment contract? what was in the works for him with mr. lutsenko. >> we reviewed drafts and in fact retainer agreements that mr. giuliani signed with various ukrainian officials, one a draft agreement unsigned with yuriy lutsen lutsenko, top prosecutors in ukraine at the time and helping with the dirt-digging campaign with joe biden and giuliani proposed in this draft agreement a $200,000 contract to do asset

recovery for the government of ukraine to try to get money allegedly stolen and had gone overseas. we also reviewed another contract that he did sign for $300,000 with the ukrainian ministry of justice. none executed, but were various incarnations of these contracts that giuliani was trying to do business with various ukrainian officials while also serving as the president's personal attorney and doing this dirt-digging of the campaign. >> biden jumped in the race officially in april. according to you and your reporting, did these talks -- when did it originate? way back, wintertime? >> the first agreement that we saw proposed was in february of this year, and he had met with -- biden was known to be a leading candidate for the democratic presidential nomination and this discussion

about alleged corruption involving joe biden's son hunter and a ukrainian company he was on the board of going on for some time. lutsenko the prosecutor met with giuliani in january in new york and the first agreement we see comes a few weeks after that. mr. giuliani told us lutsenko approached him actually requesting that he represent giuliani represent him in two capacities. one personal to bring corruption information to the u.s. government, and the other one to do this asset recovery, and giuliani said he rejected the first as a conflict of interests but considered the second one with lutsenko to represent the ukrainian government for asset recovery for a few weeks and ultimately decided not to do it, but we then see this other contract he signed and sent wire instructions for the ministry of justice and also to other attorneys, victoria tensing and through april working closely with giuliani on the

dirt-digging effort and allied with president trump. they proposed various other contracts also never executed with other ukrainian government officials. there was a duelling relationship. doing dirt to help the president and the other hand trying to get paid by the ukrainians who are helping them with that. >> got it. michael, thank you very much for breaking this and coming on from the "new york times." >> thank you. >> dig a little deeper in addition to that "new york times" reporting, the "washington post" broke news that rudy giuliani was specifically pursuing a $200,000 contract to represent uri lutsen lutsenko, then top prosecutors in ukraine. central to the campaign, also to smear former ambassador to ukraine malory yovanovitch eventually got her fired. a refresher, what marie yovanovitch said under oath about lutsenko. >> who else was involved in this concerted campaign against you?

>> there were some members of the press and others in mayor giuliani's circle. >> and who from ukraine? >> in ukraine, i think -- well, mr. lutsenko, the prosecutor general. and mr. shokin, his predecessor certainly. >> and i believe you testified earlier that mr. lutsenko had a reputation for being corrupt. is that right? >> that's correct. >> jennifer rogers is back. jennifer, big picture this for me. why is this bit about giuliani going to try to work with lutsenko, make a couple hundred thousand dollars get information on the bidens, on ukraine, not russia interfering in the 2016 election and working in his own private interests with the president. why does this matter big picture? >> the very way you listed all the things he was doing kind of

answers the question. you can't do things conflicting with each other as a lawyer. working for the president, conflicting with u.s. foreign policy. you can't run around and have ethical conflict if you're a lawyer. key to me here and we don't know yet exactly what the facts are. i think more information will come out. if there is to be criminal liability here it is likely to be part of this marie yovanovitch scheme, where they were trying to remove her. the real question is, why? why were they trying to remove her? and you know, does it have more to do with business interests being pursued by giuliani, parnas, fruman, maybe others include be lutsenko and less with trying to institute the president's scheme of extortion and bribery, and if so is that a criminal matter? a fraud case it would be. we don't know enough to pinpoint

what it is that might be a violation of criminal law. there's almost certainly legal, ethical violations here and certainly doesn't say good things about what giuliani was doing over there. >> fold in another big story of the day. jennifer, stay with me. the president may call the impeachment a hoax, his defense defied by the facts citing two sources, "new york times" reports the president knew about the whistle-blower complaint condemning his pressuring ukraine when he released the millions in military aid withholding from the country at war with russia. cnn's jeremy diamond is near mar-a-lago following the president. explain what he learned and how it kills the president's defense in this impeach thement. >> reporter: well, brooke, one of the main questions throughout the public impeachment hearings we've had over the lost two week has been to what extent did this whistle-blower complaint, knowledge of that whistle-blower

complaint influence the president's decision to release that security aid to ukraine? according to the "new york times" we learned that the president was briefed in late august about that whistle-blower complaint. that comes, of course, two weeks before the president ultimately did agree to release that security aid to ukraine. that was september 11th when the president agreed to do that, and two days before that, brooke, also another key event that is important in this context of this new revelation which is the president's phone call with gordon sondland, ambassador to the european union. sondland during that call recounted that the president told him there was no quid pro quo. but it was strange, of course, brooke, because it was unprompted. gordon sondland had not raised the notion of a quid pro quo and now we know perhaps it was the president's understanding that was what the whistle-blower alleged there was, indeed some kind of a quid pro quo involving the security aid that influenced the president's conversation. also on september 9th, brooke when the invecter general informed the intelligence

committee that they had an urgent concern, and that was as it related to the whistle-blower complaint. now, democrats have previously tried to draw a connection between that september 9th information from the inspector general of the intelligence community and the president's decision on september 11th, but now that you also have the fact that the president was aware of that whistle-blower complaint had been briefed on it by white house lawyers, that really helps explain so much more. so, brooke, as we are nearing the phase where we are, the house intelligence committee is drafting this report following two weeks of public impeachment hearings we're moving forward. still a lot to unpack here. a lot more to understand about what exactly the president knew and when. of course we know the president is continuing to prevent many of his closest advisers including the white house chief of staff mick mulvaney and other advisers at the white house from actually participating in these impeachment hearings. next, week, though, there is a judiciary committee hearing and they've invited the white house to participate.

the white house despite those complaints, though, about the process and not being involved as of now we're learning, brooke, the white house is unlikely to actually send a lawyer to participate in those hearings despite the invitation from house democratses. brooke? >> wow. jeremy, thank you, from west palm beach. open up the conversation. jennifer is back with me and michael bach, associate director of office of management and budget in omb 2006-2008 now a law partner at gibbs and dunn specializing in white collar defense and congressional investigation. michael, welcome. let me just say on what jeremy first reported on, jen, back to you just on the president reportedly knowing about this whistle-blower complaint when he then released the aid to ukraine. and a great metaphor. it's like your caught speeding by cops and try to slip the police officer $20 to get out of the ticket, and then you say too-of-to the police officer, whoa. because the police officer says, are you trying to bribe me?

i don't accept bribes. it's like you saying, well, no. i would never try to bribe you. i wasn't trying to do anything wrong. but that, and the case here, no quid pro quo from the president doesn't clear him. correct? >> that's right. you know, what it's happening now is that if the white house had not blocked the testimony of people like mulvaney, pompeo and bolton, all of this would have come out in a much more organized fashion. but because they have stonewalled with those witnesses and key documents as well, it's coming out so much more piecemeal. right? one piece at a time. still, when you put the picture together there's no question that the president -- everything he did was deliberate. right? withholding of the aid was for the purpose he wanted it. always part of one big scheme except you get the case one drip and drab as a time rather than if the witnesses testified properly. >> and the quid pro quo wasn't even in our lexicon in terms of

the news and cove aring the story until the president says no quid pro quo to gordon sondland and we know what happened next. michael what do you think of all this? >> i think that the testimony that was released this week by the house judiciary committee is interesting and adds pieces to the overall impeachment inquiry. i don't think -- i do think it's significant that mark sandy testified, an omb career official, testified about the mechanics how money was withheld. that the money to ukraine was withheld. the president does have the authority to the withhold aid. you have to separate two different things. there are two different pieces of the impeachment inquiry out. one is, did the president have the authority to withhold the aid? answer, yes, under the impoundment control act. second, what was the motivation behind him withholding the aid and that's the subject of all the other depositions and inquiry. >> back to mark sandy who you brought up in that deposition

transcript. it was released for him. he was a career white house budget staffer. sandy said two staffers who left their jobs at omb expressed frustration over this money being withheld. omb denies that. it's my understanding you know mark sandy. michael, can you tell me about him? >> sure. yeah. i mean, mark -- i've worked -- we didn't overlap at omb but he came right over and i've worked with mark. she a dedicated career official. one of the highest level career officials at omb. you have to understand they're 92%, 93% career. look, he was trying to do the right thing. i think there are questions about -- it's odd that he was asked to execute this portion or this hold on the ukraine aid but not given any explanation of why. >> hmm. >> and, look. i think that's -- that is -- you know, it raises questions about the whole process.

>> sure. sure. and you know, looking at your resume, you have crazy extensive experience when it comes to congressional investigations. you know, the white house is weighing not as jeremy reported, weighing not participating in the first impeachment hearing with the judiciary committee next week. would you advise that? >> look, i think that the american people and congress want to hear from the president's team, and want to hear their perspective. i don't think that the hearing next week is necessarily the forum to do that. next week is a hearing about the constitutional framework for impeachment and if the president participated it would be one of his lawyers basically asking questions of witnesses about the constitutional framework. i'm not showure that's really w the american people and congress, you know -- what they're sort of dying to hear from the president. i think that the better forum may end up being in the senate. >> got it.

michael, thank you. nice to have you on. jen, thank you very much. jennifer rogers. still ahead, the other wrinkle in the ran r rapidly developing news about rudy giuliani, president trump's around efforts to distance himself from his personal attorney. later, new 2020 polls putting joe biden squarely on top in the 2020 pack. i talk to the author of an opinion piece who says former president barack obama is wrong that being a moderate is not a winning strategy for democrats. you're watching cnn. i'm brooke baldwin. we will be right back. (chime) (shaq) magenta? i hate cartridges! not magenta! not magenta. i'm not going back to the store. magenta! cartridges are so... (buzzer) (vo) the epson ecotank. no more cartridges. it comes with an incredible amount of ink that can save you a lot of frustration. ♪ the epson ecotank. just fill and chill! available at...

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we are learning about rudy giuliani's dealings in ukraine, the president starting to distance himself. >> you have to ask rudy about that. i know he was going to go to ukraine and i think canceled the trip. rudy has other clients besides me. he is a warrior. rudy's a warrior. rudy went -- he possibly -- but you have to understand, rudy has other people. >> cnn political commentator mark mckennon with me now. so nice to have you on. welcome. all right. he's a warrior.

so you know, this all sounds familiar. right? we remember how it went down for president trump's former personal attorney michael cohen. right? listen to this. >> do you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no, no. >> then why -- why did michael cohen make that statement with the -- >> you have to ask michael cohen. michael's my, about attorney and you'll have to ask michael cohen. >> do you know where he got the money? >> i don't know. no. >> so we hear him say, ask michael cohen. remember that? then, of course, just last night he said, ask rudy giuliani. does it sound to you, mark, like rudy giuliani's days are numbered? >> brooke, i've lost sound here in denver but i think i anticipate your question, which is, is rudy giuliani the next guy under the bus? and as you look at the president's former attorney,

who's now in prison, and the long line of people and long trail of people behind the president's bus, it's clear that rudy giuliani could be next in line, because what we know about the president is that his bus has no brakes. when he starts talking about the fact that rudy giuliani had other clients, that's the first tell. right? the first tell. >> yes. >> so just, keep your eye on this one, but there's a long line of people under that bus. >> just want to make sure, can you hear me? can we keep going? >> i gotcha. >> cool. so, yeah. exactly what i wanted to know. ought th oug at this point, could giuliani be a scapegoat? take the fall or do we know too much about the president's involvement to let him off the hook? >> i think too much history and evidence now. i think the greater problem in the bigger picture, brooke, is this. that all that we're learning is really not a surprise to most people. i think most people say, yes,

this, a quid pro quo. yes, giuliani was over there doing deals for trump and probably had side deals of his own going on. he may have criminal liability, he may end up with -- in criminal, a criminal situation down the line along with others. what's happening now, though -- i still don't think that will affect impeachment ultimately. i think the senate will vote not to convict which is good ultimately politically because the president would be martyred if he were impeached and could be better for republicans if that happened. but for election, the bigger problem i think, we're seeing a rise in the public's perception about corruption related to this government. to the trump administration. look at long line of people either under investigation or convicted that adds up to be a much bigger problem politically for the president long term. >> giuliani has claimed he has insurance, although later walked that back saying information on the bidens, but imp mr. kags pm

implication remains. did he know about trump to be a danger? >> absolutely he does and i think absolutely he could be. the remark you're mentioning, you know had said he had an insurance policy and given how much time he spent with the president, he probably does. interesting when he said his lawyer made giuliani call the president up to tell him he was just joking, and his lawyer said, you're not a funny guy, rudy giuliani. cut it with the jokes. >> let me ask you about this anonymous book coming out. right? everyone talking about the author of this book. a warning saying he or she will reveal their name before the election. i was curious how you feel about it. one hand, this person criticized for being cowardly, not coming forward owning who he or she is. the other hand this person says by remains unnamed the trump party has to listen to the

substance of the book, attack the message and not the messenger. should this person remain unnamed or reveal who they are? >> i think they should reveal who they are and find it problematicproblem at apparently has huge problems with the president that they wouldn't stand up publicly and say they could no longer tolerate that activity. the fact they do and profit off it is troublesome to me. >> finally, speaking at that rally the president touted three military pardons, and standing up to the pentagon, here he was. >> i stuck up for three great warriors against the deep state. people can sit there in air conditioned offices and complain, but you know what? doesn't matter to me whatsoever.

>> doesn't matter. so you have the commander in chief calling the pentagon the deep state, and attacking his own defense department. what do you say? >> pretty incredible. right, brooke? pretty incredible. yeah. the take on the military in this way. listen, trump supporters voted for him because they wanted him to go break stuff and he's broken a lot of stuff, but when you screw around with the american military, that's poking a big bull in the eye. so i say the president, be wear where you're sticking your nose because the military will fight back. >> mark mcken, enjoy the snow in denver and have a safe thanksgiving. thank you. >> thanks, brooke. coming up next, the divide at the center of the democratic party. go big with plans like medicare for all or stay moderate in hopes of attracting independents. former president obama advocated for a centrist root but my next

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national poll numbers revealing big changes between moderates and progressives in the past month. when you look at senator elizabeth warren slipped five points. battling for second place with senator bernie sanders and south bend, indiana, mayor, pete buttigieg rising at 11%. what hasn't changed is former vice president joe biden leading the field by double digits at 28%. my next guest wrote this opinion piece for cnn.com about an uncertainty over what democratic voters want in 2020. someone who can appeal to a moderate swing voter or more of a leftist changemaker? journalist david love is with me now and an adjunct professor. welcome back. >> thanks, brooke. pleasure to be with you. >> you wrote this in part as a response to some comments president obama made at a top donor fund-raiser earlier in the month where obama warned against veering to the left and claimed the quote/unquote average

american doesn't want to "completely tear down the system and remake it." you, sir, see evidence of otherwise. let's start there. make your case. >> yes. well, you know, i think when you look at the situation in the u.s., people want change. you know. over the past few years, people have been suffering under the trump administration. when you look at this country, the fact of the matter is that this country has the most economic inequality of any advanced nation. people are suffering. they want change. i think that the democrats, the democratic establishment, might be -- you know, sounding the alarms a little too prematurely and i think misreading the situation, the sentiment of people in this country. the fact is that when you look at polls, various polls, people want more of a government role in their lives.

whether it's fighting climate change. whether it's dealing with the 1.5 trillion dollars in student debt. whether it's dealing with health care, affordable health care. people want these things. >> but -- but, i hear you on people wanting change and where i play devil's advocate. then senator obama ran on change. right? there's change and then there's change. look at this cnn poll another takeaway, 56% of potential democratic voters prefer a policy approach most likely to become law pap compromise, democrats and republicans get together and get something done versus a policy approach such massive reform, massive change, that it would overhaul something altogether. so i think what i'm hearing you throw down here is that the majority of americans actually don't agree with you. aren't they saying there is such a thing and such a candidate as too far left? >> i really don't think so.

i mean, i think that what the democrats are witnessing right now is their resurgence in a sense that they are going back to their roots. going back to the legacy of fdr. you know, the new deal. social security. medicare. i think that it would be a big mistake for democrats to go, to veer away from that. the fact of the matter is that democrats are doing very well. they won the congress and i think that that was a mandate, really, a sense that people want change, and it would be a big mistake for democrats to think that they can somehow combat a far right wing republican government in the form of the trump administration by providing milquetoast, luke warm policy solutions that are not going to energize the base and we have to remember.

african-americans, people are color, progressive whites, they are the people who are responsible for the democrats being in power right now, and the democratic establishment, they haven't really provided any proof that these, you know, middle of the road policies are what people want. i don't know how you fight against the policies in the trump administration, such as, you know, putting brown children in cages, i don't know how you combat that with a middle of the road point of view i. hear you and think that's the million dollar question. to fight if you're a democrat, to take trumpet out do you fight fire with fire in the sense, this extreme right wing sort of president, do you fight with the far left, what you're advocating or someone more in the middle to grab independent voters and folks not on the trump train? a question we'll keep asking and talking about for the months to come. thank you so much for sharing your opinion and i am sure we

will talk again. >> good to have you on. >> my pleasure. >> thanks. coming up next, this powerful explosion at a texas chemical plant caught on tape moments ago. the fire has been burning since early this morning. we'll have an update on the efforts to put this thing out, next. wayfair's biggest black friday blowout ever is now on. yes! score unbelievable savings. like living room up to 70% off. storage solutions from $9.99. and area rugs up to 80% off.

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for a deadly incursion of syria. 200,000 kurds forced from homes anding listening in makeshift camps. cnn's reporter say they feel rebetrayed by president trump. >> reporter: class should be in session here in hassica the school is a shelter for displaced people. in one classroom we immediate ibrahim hassan, kurdish father of five tells us forced to flee his home with his children when the turkish military operation began. this is what remains of his house, ibrahim says it is one of many in his kurdish neighborhood deliberately ransacked by turkish-backed forces. >> translator: they took everything and after they took all of our belonginging they set it on fire. burned it all. >> reporter: just days before the offensive began, ibrahim's

children posed smiling with u.s. troops patrolling the area. he says america's presence gave him a false sense of security. then suddenly, they were gone. >> translator: since america betrayed us, every time i look at these photos of my children with the americans i want to erase them. >> reporter: do you feel that you trust the americans still? [ speaking in foreign language ] definitely not. >> translator: now we hear and we see on television america saying that their only here for the oil. why did trump do this? you have betrayed all of these people. >> reporter: it's a sentiment we found shared by many here. nearly 200,000 people have been displaced by turkey's offensive. hundreds of their homes have been damaged or looted. local authorities are now trying to move them out of the schools so that class can start again

and into hastily-built camps like this one. conditions are bleak and resources scarce. because of the security situation, international aid agencies have had to pull out leaving the kurds with no one to rely on but themselves. she's saying it's really difficult here because it's very cold especially at night. they don't have enough food. they don't have electricity and the water's not good. camp organizers say there are 3,000 people living here now with more arriving every day. almost everyone in this camp is from the town of ras al ein and used to be about 75% kurdish. now just a handful of kurds are left and the people here believe that the ultimate goal of this turkish offensive is to essentially push the kurds out

of this area completely and change the ethnic makeup of it forever. turkey has done little to alleviate their fears as the kurds from poured out of these areas, arabs have been bused in. syrian refugees who turkish authorities claim are originally from these areas. after more than eight years of civil war, this part of syria is full of stories of people forcibly displaced. in the christian village here we find more families sheltered in ruins from a destroyed church. will you try to go home, i asked these women. there's no home to go to, they reply. >> [ speaking in foreign language ]. >> reporter: isis cleansed this area of christians when it was in control and they have yet to return. now the village provides refuge

for another people. forced from their homes with no sense of a possible return. clarissa ward, cnn, northern syria. >> hmm. clarissa thank you for that. multiple stories breaking today on rudy giuliani's ties to ukraine, the president's personal attorney reportedly trying to get hundreds of thousands of dollars in contracts there at the same time pushing ukrainians to investigate the bidens. those new details ahead. enterprise car sales has access to over half a million preowned vehicles, most with tech features like blind spot detection, back up camera... [kristen gasps] (employee) because you never know what might be behind you. (kristen bell) does the sloth come standard? (kristen bell vo) looking to buy? enterprise makes it easy.

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want to take you to texas to breaking news out of port neches where a chemical plant fire that started this morning has injured three people. quite a dangerous situation. and this is video of a second explosion that just happened moments ago. so ed lavandera is up on this. are people okay? what is the situation with the fire? >> reporter: well it is still a volatile situation. this is a plant south of the beaumont, texas, area, and you could see the intensity of the fire burning since after 1:00 this morning so almost 14 hours

of this fire burning down there. air monitoring is being done. the plant is run by a company called tpc group and they say that three people were injured, two employees suffered fractures and another employee suffered burns. all three workers have been treated and released from area hospitals. but the explosions have just been stunning. extensive damage in the area surrounding this chemical plant. in fact, many of the explosions -- the one this morning was caught on front porch cameras that showed the shockwave cutting through the neighborhoods and buckling ceilings and buckling garage doors and front doors of homes and the company is setting up annin surance -- an insurance claim location and right now they are working to contain it and let the chemicals in those

tanks burn themselves out at this point. and that right now they're in the mode of containing to make sure they don't spread to other tanks in the facility. >> crazy to look at the smoke. ed, keep watching for us in texas. coming up next, his last second layup beat duke in this massive upset. so why did fans start giving him thousands of dollars afterward? stay with us for this amazing story. (employee) enterprise car sales has access to over

half a million preowned vehicles, most with tech features like blind spot detection, back up camera... [kristen gasps] (employee) because you never know what might be behind you. (kristen bell) does the sloth come standard? (kristen bell vo) looking to buy? enterprise makes it easy.

it is the upset of the year so far in college basketball as the carolina grad i will do my best to be straight about this. top-ranked duke losing to stephen f. austin, 85-83 on a last-second layup in overtime. roll it. >> -- they just couldn't secure it. loose. kensville got it. they have a timeout. they don't use it. yes! the lummer jacks have done it. >> the lumberjacks have done it. snapping the duke 150 game

non-conference winning streak at home a streak dating back to it thou. the player nathan bain is from freeport, bahamas and his family lost almost everything in hurricane dorian and they launched a gofundme page and raised a little more than $2,000 and now topped $68,000. how about that. i'll see you back here tomorrow for thanksgiving. i'm brooke baldwin. "the lead" starts right now. we now know what the president knew and when he knew it. "the lead" starts right now. he knew he got caught before he released the aid. the new development that could blow up the president's whole defense. the fall guy? president trump adding zens -- distance between himself and rudy giuliani. saying the president's lawyer was trying to make a buck in ukraine while also working for mr. trump's political game. strength in the numbers. a poll shows