tv Cuomo Prime Time CNN December 5, 2019 11:00pm-12:00am PST
name-calling. you know, the strongest man in the room -- you ever hear the expression? lions are not bothered by the complaints of the sheep? are you a lion or a sheep? >> are you an eagle or, you know -- >> i don't know where you're going like that. >> eagle soar over everything. they're not concerned about the animals on the ground. >> i'd rather be an airplane than an eagle. that's me, though. i have to go. i have a packed show. thank you very much. have a good night. >> now you know. >> i hope tomorrow night your tie matches. i'm crishris cuomo. and welcome to "primetime." donald j. trump has been fast tracked to be the third impeached american president. he says he wants it to be fast. big questions are coming up about what will be the articles of impeachment. what are high pricrimes and misdemeanors? do you go back to mueller? we have a leader of the
republican resist tanance of th historic night and a main driver of the impeachment bus. we have new facts in the mix. rudy giuliani, did he just seau crane is not going to get american help when it comes to the corruption investigations? now? what do you say? let's get after it. speaker of the house nancy pelosi said the president's removed all doubt that he violated the oath of office, that's why articles of impeachment must be drafted. what will they include? democrats say pelosi is working on that collectively. and she's not ruling out drawing from mueller's finds. you have two democrats that don't want to move forward with this. if you don't get all of the votes, does it weaken the position? the speaker is accusing
republicans of failing to meet the standard of honoring their oaths. how? by not being part of congressional oversight, but being the president's proxies. we have a man who wants to make his voice known. matt gates, congressman, florida. good to see you. >> thanks for having me back on "prime time," chris. >> rudy giuliani, in ukraine, meeting people. you can talk about the company he's keeping. i'm not interested in it. but he puts out a tweet that says what's on the screen. if you can't see it, i will read it. it says schiff's impeachment is a farce because there was no military aid withheld. two, the conversation about corruption in ukraine was based on compelling evidence of criminal conduct by then-v.p. biden in 2016, that has not been resolved. and until it is, will be a major
obstacle to the u.s. assisting ukraine with its anti-corruption reforms. congressman, is rudy giuliani saying, if it wasn't clear already, if ukraine doesn't do what we want on corruption, which is biden, clear in his tweet, you're not getting help from the u.s.? >> i think you have to engage in anti-corruption to get anti-corruption assistance. i think it's weird that rudy giuliani is in the ukraine right now. i'm not here to defend rudy giuliani. the rudy giuliani i know is the rudy giuliani that fought the mob when it wasn't a popular thing to do. he put his life on the line on 9/11. if anyone ought to get the benefit of the doubt, it would be mayor giuliani. >> i don't think it's giuliani that's the problem. it's who sent him, congressman.
who is paying him? why is he there? if this is foreign policy, why is mayor giuliani involved at all? >> i don't know. >> you need to defend the president, you must know. >> no. what i can do is point to the democrat of nsc official, mr. morrison, who said when asked about giuliani's involvement, that he wasn't concerned. he didn't think it was anything inappropriate. >> he was the only one. >> it was unusual. and our country has -- our country has a history of using people in a nonprodecisitraditi to engage in foreign policy. the president has engaged with me to carry a message outside of the official channels. i don't think there's anything wrong with that inherently. if rudy giuliani did something wrong, there's a process to deal with it. >> there's a couple of investigations going on. we'll see what they yield about
the mayor's exposure. but the great theory here is, it's one thing to ask a congressman to do something. we don't know if this man is the president's lawyer. if he was a proxy for the state department or acting as a concerned citizen. but it really matters which answer is correct. if he wasn't acting as the president's personal lawyer and we don't know that's true, because i don't know if he was getting paid. if it was pro bono, was it filed as such? we don't find any record of it. >> that's a red herring. >> how so? >> it doesn't matter. >> it does if you want privilege. it does if you want privilege. >> no, it wasn't. >> of course it does. you can't be my attorney -- >> and the things they've said to me. >> i with be your attorney and not charge you and you can maintain privilege with me. that's absolutely the case. >> it's still a contribution. you see what i'm saying? we need to know the answer. and it's not penny ante because
it will be privilege. we'll leave it for another day. the question is, the hetheory he is, you were pressuring ukraine, if they don't give you the bidens you don't give them the money. now, you have the president's whatever saying, i'm in ukraine, looking for dirt on the bidens, if ukraine doesn't get help, they're not getting money. doesn't he prove that the theory about the president is 100% accurate? >> as you point out, there is someambiguity that rudy giuliani is playing. if he is acting for other clients or entities, that would be helpful information to have. when it comes to the president, which is what this impeachment is about, you have a longheld criticism about foreign aid. the legitimate concern about ukraine, and you have specific concern about burismburisma.
it was mr. kent that had concerns about burisma that our own embassy had to pull out of a partnership with them. >> democrat senators asked for -- >> the president should never be impeached on it. >> if you have your facts right. let's be clear. there's no question about investigating burisma. >> those facts are right. >> you're cutting me off. give me time, brother. give me time. >> i got you. >> if the idea is that this is what biden wanted, democratic senators told ukraine you need to investigate the following people, including the person atop of burisma. there's no question that there was a question about it. but the president asked for biden. in his perfect phone call, he asked for biden.close?
unusual and dangerous. this september 9th call of which there's no record of, and the state department you would think, seeing how it is to what you said, which is 100% right, it is the only piece of testimony that gives the president any clearance on this. that one call and they don't produce evidence that it ever happened. it was the september 7th call that he did tell the two men about. he didn't say any of the things that the president says he says. he never told mr. sondland it was no quid pro quo, the same phrase that who said? the whistleblower, which hadn't been public yet but had been taken to the white house. how odd that the president used the same phrase as the whistleblower, but we don't know that he said those things. sondland says he did in a phone call that's never been proven to exist. aren't you a little curious? >> to believe that version of
events is to believe that ambassador sondland perjured himself before the congress multiple times. >> or he misrepublican misremem embellished to help his buddy. >> the only record evidence is the sondland testimony saying no quid pro quo, the president wants nothing. with that being the only evidence -- >> he didn't relay it to the two other men in their testimony. and there's no proof the phone call ever happened. >> if you make a relevant point that if the state department has these records, why is the administration not complying with the records. the reason is, if you waive some of those privileges and some circumstances, you would limit your ability to protect the executive and the decisionmaking process, not just this president but for future presidents. don't we want presidents to meet with advisers, think outside the box, come up with crazy ideas and reject the ideas. >> yes. there should be executive --
>> that's the reason -- >> there should be executive immunity and privilege. i don't think that's why he's doing it. they went to court to argue absolute immunity. they got kicked out of court on it. it will be a case-by-case basis. this was done because he doesn't want the exposure. if this were me or you, matt, and we had guys at the top of the food chain that would clear us and prove we did nothing wrong, we would do it. let's leave it there. you are always welcome, at 9:00, at 11:00, wherever. >> thanks, sean. >> did you just call me sean? that's high praise. >> he has a few more million viewers. >> he has more everything. probably hairs on his head. you say hello to him and take care. there's numbers in doubt -- i've never been called sean hannity before. i'll take it. did intel investigators get phone records right?
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♪ we have new information tonight and it is casting doubt on whether or not rudy giuliani contacted the white house budget office. why? we saw the logs. it says omb. hold on. a source tells us the number listed in the democrats' impeachment report associated with omb, that was the chart we all saw. but that number can go to
multiple officials in the white house. mike quigley joins us now. thank you, congressman. good to have you on. appreciate it. the significance of this discrepancy? >> we said at the beginning, don't read too much into all of this. what we learn from these call records is that it was a whole of the administration effort. what did ambassador sondland say? everyone was in on the loop. they were all engaged in this. clearly this was the administration and the white house working in its entirety, to move this scheme forward. i don't know that i can say who each number is attached to that isn't identified. >> right. >> and i think i tell people, don't jump to the conclusions until we learn more. >> well, to be fair -- >> the chairman said just the other day -- >> finish. >> -- yeah, the chairman said the other day, we're going to
continue to learn more as the investigation continues. >> there were democrats jumping up and down that there was an important linkage that will have to be recalibrated. the mayor was very clear he doesn't know why it would be omb. he never spoke about ukraine aid. his beat ttweets tonight may ca another problem. he seems to be connecting the bidens to get help of the united states. i don't know why he would want to put out that message right now. here's why it mattered, congressman. you need to show that the aid was held up as a matter of fact because it was used as leverage to get the announcement of the investigations. do you think you can do that right now? >> sure. people ask me who our best witness is. so far, the president of the united states. and second, after that, mick mulvaney. you read into this, nothing these witnesses did did anything but corroborate what the president said as you said, back
to the whistleblower's complaint. to mick mulvaney and the consist testimony of the cream of our diplomatic core, all leads to the same conclusion. the president, we know they withheld this aid. it wasn't released until after there was public congressional pressure it was public. ukrainians were aware of this. they talk so much. and you and i have talked about latin phrases. a quid pro quo. the other one you and i referenced, it speaks for itself. in this case, the law that the president violated, the harm he did, speaks for itself. i just caution reading too much into --
>> -- there's concern that if you go back to mueller -- i guess you could dovetail an obstruction, an article of impeachment obstruction then and now, but lose votes. are you worried if you reach back to mueller, as we're hearing from moderate democrats, you lose votes? >> i don't know how listing more tr crimes loses votes. in the nixon article, it lists four instances. this president has obstructed four times in one day, by withholding democrats. >> did you hear people say keep it to ukraine? >> i haven't had people tell me that personally. >> one that the special counsel mueller referenced. he rarely spoke to the press. he did not exonerate the president.
he is leaving the articles involving obstruction for the congress to react. i render that if it wasn't for the fact he wasn't allowed to indict the president, he thought that the obstruction instances were something that a president could be indicted or any other individual could. i don't think it hurts the case to dovetail into an article 10 or 11 other instances, in which the president of the united states violated the law and obstructed justice. >> as long as it's not something that loses you votes. i was talking to the democrat out of washington state. and she was saying, we have to be with one voice. we can't have less than all of them. that's the tactic of the republicans, right? speak all with one voice and have unanimity. in 1998 with clinton, you had 31 democrats go against the president and whether or not to proceed and five voted against him in the actual articles of impeachment. mike quigley, i appreciate you reading us into this process. going to be an important couple of weeks. you're always welcome here to give us the state of play.
thank you. >> we'll get our names straight. thank you. >> take care. what names? why would the linchpin of this whole ukraine shakedown go to ukraine right now? i'm talking about rudy giuliani. of all places to be, what's the play. let's look through the investigative lens. andrew mccabe, can he make sense of it? don't shake your head with an answer yet. next. easier...makes the holidays ...like this. because right now when you buy one of the latest samsung phones you get one free. on that. so you can post this... ...score this... ...be there like this... ...and share all of this... ...with that. so do this, on that, with us. now, buy a samsung galaxy s10 or note 10 and get one free.
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so, open up the file of you can't make this up and tuck this bad boy in there. rudy giuliani is back in ukraine, meeting with a fringe ukrainian lawmaker, who is not only part of a pro-russian party, the man is known to have publicly pushed for investigations into the biden family himself. no surprise that they're meeting. pressed on the trip, mr. giuliani remains coy-ish. >> what's the ukraine trip all about? >> well, i can't really describe it. i can't even confirm it. all i can tell you is, that i am doing today, all day, and all night, maybe, what i've been doing for a year and a half. i'm representing my client. >> andrew mccabe is here. you know how i feel about the issue of what client? are you paying? are you working pro bono? i think it's going to matter in terms of privilege and understanding his role in this and understanding what he was really doing. however, if you could put rudy
giuliani in a worse place and saying worse things right now, vis-a-vis his client's interest, could you come up with a worse combination? >> you would not. if you are at all engaged in trying to help this president navigate this crisis in his presidency, getting through the impeachment process, the one place on earth you don't want rudy giuliani is in ukraine, taking documents from a known corrupt politician about joe biden and having those pictures on the internet. it's unbelievable. >> and tweeting. you better help with the biden efforts. it will not get united states assistance in his anti-corruption efforts. he is speaking for the united states as the president's lawyer, but maybe not. he also says he's working for the state department or maybe
not. he says he's working as a corruption-buster. nevertheless, let's say he's wildly successful and comes back on this show and says, this is proof that biden did it, this is proof that biden did it and this is proof that biden did it. how does it change the case against the president? it wasn't the right way to adduce those claims from ukraine. >> and nobody knows that better than a former prosecutor, a former united states attorney in the southern district of new york. he knows if he is in possession of evidence of corruption, of misdeeds, of law breaking on the part of a u.s. citizen, the proper place for that evidence is, i'm sorry to say, not your show, but the department of justice. we have laws that prohibit american citizens from engaging in corrupt practices with foreign officials. if that happened, and to this date we don't have any
information that it did, that should be given to the department of justice to be handled through our criminal justice system. >> when you're looking through the lens of what this means and rudy comes up on the call sheet with omb. now, they're saying that may be a bounced number. could have gone to different police stations. he may never have gone to omb. how strong does the case have, that we may have held trump through a proxy or mulvaney, but one step away, to be convincing because it is not a court of law. it's fundamentally court of public opinion, that they can prove he held up the aid for the announcement? >> you don't have perfect direct evidence of that. there's no note that says, please hold up the aid to ukraine. i don't think the rudy giuliani phone call gets you closer to that, even if we could prove that the number is, in fact, some person at omb or maybe mick mulvaney or somebody else that's connected to omb. but what we do have, is numerous witnesses who will testify
credibly and consistently that their understanding from the comments of other people, was that the order to hold up the military aid came directly from the president through mick mulvaney to omb. you have ambassador taylor who had that related from an omb official, on a teleconference on the 18th of july, maybe. in addition to taylor, there's several witnesses that corroborate not only that teleconference but other interactions with folks who say this was coming from on high at the white house. >> andrew mccabe, appreciate it. >> thanks, chris. times are tense. it is rare to see nancy pelosi or joe biden do what they did today. did you hear their quotes? you see them in context? you see what nancy pelosi is doing right now? you don't want to be on the other side of that finger. what's happened and why, next.
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so, you're selling access to the president just like he is. >> you're a damn liar, man. that's not true. and no one has ever said that. no one -- >> i see it on the tv. >> you see it on the tv. i know you do. and by the way -- i'm going to -- let him go. let him go. look, the reason i'm running is because i've been around a long time and i know more than most people know. and i get things done. you want to check my shape, let's do push-ups together here, man. let's run. let's do whatever you want to do. let's take a test. no one has said my son has done anything wrong. and i did not on any occasion, and no one has ever said it. >> i never said you did anything wrong. >> you said i set up my son to work at on oil company. isn't that what you said? >> i hear that on msnbc.
>> you don't hear that on msnbc. you did not hear that at all. what you heard -- look. okay. i'm not going to get in an argument with you, man. >> i don't want to. >> yeah, you do. look, here's the deal. here's the deal. >> it looks like you don't have anymore backbone than trump does. >> let him talk. let him talk. >> any other questions? >> yeah. >> i'm not voting for you. >> i knew you weren't. you're too old to vote for me. >> all right. now, on capitol hill, this was speaker pelosi's response to a reporter who asked her if she hated president trump. >> do you hate the president, madam speaker? >> i don't hate anybody. i don't have -- i was raised in a catholic house. we don't hate anybody. not anybody in the world. so, don't you accuse me --
>> i didn't accuse you. i asked you a question. representative collins suggested that they are doing this because they don't like the guy. >> i think the president is a coward when it comes to helping our kids, who are afraid of gun violence. i think he is cruel when he doesn't deal with helping our dreamers, of which we're very proud. i think he's in denial about the climate crisis. however, that's about the election. this is about the election. take it up. this is about the constitution of the united states and the facts that leads to the president's violation of his oath of office. and as a catholic, i resent your using the word hate in a sentence that addresses me. i don't hate anyone. i was raised in a way that is a heart full of love and always pray for the president. and i still pray for the president. i pray for the president all the
time. so, don't mess with me when it comes to words like that. >> comedian tony baker would call these skippity-paps. how do we read this? is this a reflection of heated times? let's take it to the professor who wrote the book, literally. dr. brownstein is going to help us. thanks for being with us tonight.
trump uses anger to make people angry. that's why i've argued some of his hateful rhetoric proves him to be a demagogue. so, what's up with former v.p. viden a e biden and the speaker of the house, nancy pelosi. fighting fire with fire or starting start ing to tire of the b.s. i'm with ron brownstein. what's your take? >> fire, tire. i don't think it's a strategic move by either of them. i don't think we'll see angry nancy pelosi in the next few weeks as impeachment moves to
its conclusion in the house. i don't think we'll see angry joe biden on a daily basis. but each of their reactions was on-brand for them. as you pointed out, there was a difference between indignation enanger. the indignation that pelosi showed is very on-brand for her. especially in this go-round as the speaker, steely is the one word that comes to mind for her. and for biden, you know, his basic claim is that he is a straight shooter. you know? don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. that was an episode of that today for him. i don't think it was off-brand for either of them. but i don't think it will be a routine occurrence going forward. >> all right. but let's move past brand into just what plays and how, in terms of how it helps you win or not. we both know what the -- what the stink is on biden. does he have the strength? the toughness to go against tough, when they're going
toe-to-toe? pelosi's not in that mix. but biden is. what is the right path there? >> well, i think -- i think on-balance, more often than not for him, it is a return to normalcy. a president that's less volatile, less confrontational. and that's what i think he is selling. but democrats, i think very much want someone who is strong enough to stand up to donald trump, who, after all, chris -- let's keep in mind while we're talking about this, yesterday, sitting across -- or two days ago, sitting across from a world leader, he described adam schiff as a deranged maniac, very sick individual. he's accused pelosi and schiff of treason and being traitors. there's a high bar for outrageous language and behavior. on-balance, biden, more often than not, is going to be a calming presence. but people want him to stand up for himself when he's being unfairly accused and if he is the nominee, he's going to have
plenty of opportunity to do that against donald trump. >> i didn't have a long time to think about it. but don brought up this segment in the last hour -- obviously, we're a little bit out. don is on at his normal time. and i'm usually on at 9:00. i was talking to mitch landrieu, and the best path for biden, is the mike wallace path. mike wallace, rest in peace, wasn't somebody that got into shouting matches with his opponent. but he was brilliant with saying, what did you just say? did you just call them a brown menace? i think that that may be the betwixt route for biden. when the president says his vulgar and profane things, you don't match it. you don't try to one-up it. you expose it for what it is. t we both >> you're not going to beat a demagogue unless you're a
demagogue. >> and he's not going to. like i said this is not some strategic move we're now going to see angry joe biden every day. but look at the campaign ad video they put out yesterday on world leaders mocking trump, which is one of the most kind of well received things they have done in this campaign. and many democrats said it struck exactly the tone you want to strike in dealing with trump, kind of like an almost bemusement at the way he has transformed the presidency. not always the most angry. there's plenty to be angry about. look at the tape propublica released on a 16-year-old left to die in a cell in border patrol custody a day after we have this whole big debate whether it was inappropriate for a law professor to mention the name of the president's son. there's been no shortage of outrage on the democratic side. i don't think biden feels he has to stoke that on a regular
basis. >> the question though is how do the democrats counter the anger and you talk about righteous indignation, it is by definition righteous indignation that people who follow this president some are extreme thinkers, some are fringe political types but there is righteous indignation. how do you match that, how do you harness it, how do they create a home for it in your party? a little different tonight but i thank you for watching very much. cuomo prime time at its special hour. the news continues on cnn right now.
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see how investing with a j.p. morgan advisor can help you. visit your local chase branch. hello from cnn center in atlanta. i'm natalie allen. next here on "cnn newsroom" nancy pelosi calls for article of impeachment against donald trump. she talked with cnn's jake tapper about the decision and the case against the u.s. president. we'll have that for you this hour. also on strike. angry protesters brings a part of france to a standstill and say they will keep it up for weeks. plus an armed robbery leads to a chase and deadly shooting involving a parcel delivery truck in florida.
thank you for joining us. our top story after months of razor sharp testimony and bombshell headlines the u.s. house is on the verge of putting its formal accusations against the u.s. president into writing. speaker nancy pelosi on thursday set in motion a chain of events that will almost certainly result in donald trump becoming the third president in u.s. history to be impeached. even if he's acquitted in a senate trial as conventional wisdom suggests, he will, pelosi said the u.s. house will do its constitutional duty because the president's actions have demanded it. >> the president leaves us no choice but to act because he is trying to corrupt once again the election for his own benefit.
sadly but with confidence and humility, with allegiance to our founders and a heart full of love for america, today i am asking our chairman to proceed with articles of impeachment. >> well, the white house has until later today to decide if it will participate in the next phase of impeachment, but it's already signaled it won't. over the next week or so articles of impeachment will be drawn up and approved. they will then be put before the full house for a vote by christmas. pelosi was about to exit after talking with reporters and one of them shouted a question that made her stop. what followed was this heated exchange. >> do you hate the president, madam speaker because -- >> i don't hate anybody. >> the reason i asked -- >> we don't hate anybody, not anybody in the world.
don't you accuse me -- >> i did not accuse you. >> you did. >> i asked you a question. representative collins said you simply don't like the die gi. i think it's an important point. >> i think the president is a cowered when it comes to helping our kids who are afraid of gun violence. i think he is cruel when he doesn't deal with helping our dreamers. i think he's in denial about the climate crisis. however, that's about the election. this is about the -- take it up in the election. this is about the constitution of the united states and the facts that lead to the president's violation of his oath of office. and as a catholic i resent your using the word hate in a sentence that addresses me. i don't hate anyone. i was raised in a way that is a heart full of love and always prayed for the president.