tv CNN Newsroom CNN July 1, 2020 8:00am-9:00am PDT
hello, everyone. i'm kate bolduan and thank you very much for joining us for the next couple of hours. the united states is going in the wrong direction at potentially the worst possible moment right before a major holiday that is typically all about gathering and getting together. right now 37 states are reporting a rise, a rising number of cases. there are only two, yes, two states heading in the right direction, new jersey and rhode island. so what does that trend really mean? dr. anthony fauci put it in stark terms saying if things don't change the country's current high of experiencing 40,000 new infections a day it could jump to 100,000 cases a day, more than double the current record high. one former top official and the former fda commissioner also says fauci's estimate could be too conservative. >> i think, jim, we're already
over 100,000 per day. remember, a lot of cases are going undetected because not everybody can get testing and according to the cdc, the total number of cases is ten times of what we have been measuring. >> 19 states are pausing or changing the reopening plans in the face of this. in california many are closing beaches and canceling fireworks displays for the upcoming weekend as governor gavin newsom is considering more restrictions to stop the spread. let's go there, cnn's dan simon is in pacific palisades and joining me right now. dan, what are you hearing? >> well, we don't know what the governor is going to announce, but there is a sense that he has to do something dramatic to get the state back on track. in l.a. county all of the beaches will be closed and no fireworks either. could we see something more like that throughout the state or could it be something more
significant in terms of closing down the economy once again? governor newsom has likened it to a toggle switch. he is expected to have a press conference around noon time so we get a better sense of what he is expected to say, but i can tell you that one of the leading doctors in the state, dr. robert wachter, and he says that california's miracle is effectively over and that basically what happens around the memorial day weekend when the economy started to reopen people got complacent and people stopped wearing their mask and we saw the community spread particularly among young people and what the governor plans to do today, we'll be watching it very closely, kate. >> absolutely. everyone in the state and the country. let's see, dan, thanks. the state reported its highest number of cases just yesterday. just under 7,000.
hospitals are reporting they're hitting capacity. the governor has rolled back some of the state's reopening plans, but is it enough? cnn's lucy kafanov is live in houston. she's tracking the latest. what is the very latest? >> kate, the trend not looking good for texas, 6,975 new cases and that brings the total to nearly 160,000. that is massive. we are in front of one of the testing facilities here where people have been lined up for miles since midnight in the early hours of the morning. a lot of people trying to stay safe and trying to get tested. the governor had said in tv interviews this week that perhaps texas pushed a little bit too hard on its aggressive, economic reopening. he has rolled back some of those steps, for example, shutting down bars and restaurant capacity and there are disagreements. take a listen to the lieutenant governor who was on fox news saying he doesn't need any
advice from the nation's top infectious disease expert. take a listen. >> the only thing i'm skipping over is listening to him. he has been wrong every time on every issue. i don't need his advice anymore. >> reporter: so he's referring to dr. anthony fauci who testified yesterday and he said there are certain measures and benchmarks that states need to meet and this is something that was set by the white house, quite frankly, in order to do these economic reopenings and that is making sure that the number of cases are under control before each new phase is put into action and making sure there's enough testing capacity and making sure the hospitals can handle the load in texas. thai did reopen, and it's home to houston and the other numbers ever cases, and a lot of doctors and the icu beds will have
capacity and they don't have the resources they need to handle the ban, and i can tell you that here in harris county, they extended the, their employees and patrons wear a mask, but no statewide mandate and it is a patchwork, city by city, county by county approach to getting this public health crisis under control, kate. >> the interesting thing is from the local level in texas, that's the problem that a lot of local officials are raising the alarm about, that it is city by city but the governor is the one who took control of reopening so now the cities are left to deal with the fallout even though the governor was the one who ordered these reopening plans. good to see you, lucy. thank you so much. vice president mike pence is on his way to arizona. the state is grappling with a
devastating surge in cases. the director of the cdc even called out and name checked the state during congressional testimony yesterday raising alarm that the daily death toll is now on the rise in arizona. the governor who will be meeting with the vice president is one of the state leaders -- one of the many state leaders across the country who is now reversing course on reopening plans saying very seriously, we are not going back to normal any time soon. joining me right now is the mayor of mesa, arizona, john giles. mayor, thank you very much for coming in. i was looking at data out of mesa and the surge plans have been activated at the banner desert medical center in mesa. what is the status, first and foremost of hospital capacity in your area? are there enough beds? how is the staff doing in is there enough protective equipment? we are back to the beginning with these important questions. >> sure. banner, the hospital you
described a moment ago is the largest hospital in the state and i did have the opportunity to be at that hospital about a week ago in talking with the administrators and their plans are -- they are at about 90% capacity as far as icu beds go and their plan is to expand to icu in other beds in the hospital and to ak straight hospitals and convention centers and other buildings and convert them to hospital use much like you've seen in the surge plans and something to note, much like those areas we're seeing the surge in age groups. a quarter are from the 22 to 42 category. we a triby the that, and you've
seen is to -- there was a younger population and it's the social distancing guidelines and so we are, in our community and in the state of arizona rolling back some of those business openings that the governor just a couple of days ago closed bars and gyms and some of the other businesses that probably are more frequented by folks in that age group and we're trying to tie a knot on the end of our rope right now. >> do you think that's enough? do you think closing down bars, nightclubs and gyms is enough to turn the tide in what you're seeing? >> no. i mean, i think we will fully expect to continue to see the numbers to climb, and i think we're looking at every possible way at this point to mitigate the spread of the virus. >> what more would you like to see right now?
>> i'm not sure what more we can do short of a total shutdown. we had about a week ago the governor gave local jurisdictions and the mayors the ability to mandate masks and we've done that, so we're -- we're doing everything we can to follow the cdc recommendations at this point in arizona. >> are people complying? you put in place a face covering order, and i think it was just about a week ago. >> correct. what has the response been from residents about this? are people complying? >> for the most part yes, and i think there were some -- some growing pains that went through that. we had some pushback and some of it was the unfortunate political pushback that you've seen in other areas of the country, as well. it's always an adjustment to get used to wearing a mask. i talked with friends and families and family members in other parts of the country that talk about how common place it is now in other parts of the country and arizona is going
through that growing curve right now and the learning curve, but i have seen that we fairly quickly adapted to it and it's become a part of our everyday lifestyle, but it wasn't without some discomfort. >> it's interesting to hear because there has been a real steady stream of leaders from across the country and across the political spectrum, but for the purpose of the discussion with the republican president, a steady stream of republicans now calling on the president of the united states to lead by example and be a better example and wear a mask himself. what do you think would be the impact if president trump would put on a face covering? >> that would be a very positive step. i've been pleased earlier this week to see the vice president and other republican leaders and when the president was in arizona a week ago, governor deucy and senator mcsally both wore masks throughout the visit with the president and like i
say, i've seen the vice president has been more proactive in that in the last week. so i think that's modeling good behavior i think would help us and help people get over this perception that there's some sort of a political statement attached to wearing a mask. >> yeah. >> you agree with it. a lot of folks agree with it, and it seems that the president he does not agree with that that modeling actually matters here. mayor, good luck. thank you. we'll check back in. coming up for us, what has happened in the last month. it is okay if you are wondering that right now when it comes to the fight against covid. what went wrong in so many cases as we talk to the mayor in one arz arz stay and what must be done now to stop it. >> there's new reporting that the russians could be offering bounties on u.s. troops. 300 miles an hour, thats where i feel normal. having an annuity tells me my retirement is protected. protected lifetime income from an annuity can help your
this just in to cnn. pharmaceutical giant pfizer is reporting some encouraging early data on a coronavirus vaccine candidate it is working on. cnn's elizabeth cohen is tracking this information that's coming in. what is pfizer reporting in and how much stock are folks putting this early data? >> kate, i think that people should be very careful about this early data because one, it's in a very small number of people. two, it was not published in a medical journal and pfizer put it out on the internet. they posted their study and for all of those reasons as well as many others, we should be very careful. it doesn't mean these people were protected against covid. it just means they saw certain immune logical markers in their blood. what pfizer did was they
vaccinated 36, and on average they did receive an immune response ask that immune response was best after two doses. now here's another reason why we should be careful. they gave doses of varying sizes and after two medium-sized dozes, 70% experienced fever and others had had theache or fatigue. it was transient, the fever went away within a day, but still that's something you want to keep an eye on. you can make an argument and you can buy this argument this a day of fever is not such a big deal. what you're getting in return is a vaccine that might help control this virus, but you have to ask will the public accept and will they agree to get a vaccine that has a relatively high incidence of fever. still, you have to ask that question. kate? >> and of course, what impact --
what advocacy and what safety it has in terms of all of the different age groups of people that would need to be getting this vaccine, as well. >> thank you, elizabeth. great to see you. so today is july 1st and take a look at where the two snap shops of where the country is and was. it will show you a stark difference. a sea of green which means good across the country on june 1st and only two states are in that green zone, obviously, small northeastern states. the green zone meaning a downward trend in cases, where the country wants to be. the majority of states heading in the wrong direction now. here's another visual representation of what's happened in one month. look at that. that is a sea of red. most of the country experiencing infections and experiencing infections that have jumped by more than 50% in a month. joining me right now is dr. craig spencer. he's director of global health
and er medicine at columbia university medical center. thank you for being here. i appreciate it. when you look at the trends and what we're seeing and what we are hearing, the real data of hospitalizations jumping. cases jumping and death counts jumping, can you articulate from your perspective the full extend of how dangerous the full extent is right now, doctor? >> absolutely. i was on the front lines of the apocalyptic surge of cases in new york city and saw so many people streaming through the doors and so many people die of covid so i know what this increase in case counts across the country portends and what it will bring to many cases that have not been as hit by this virus as we were in new york city. as you pointed out a month ago, it didn't look so bad and i think there's a lot of reason to not be so optimistic right now. a month ago around this time we were diagnosing around 22,000
cases per day and yesterday we diagnosed more than double that. this is also concerning because many states, eight states yesterday posted single-day records and test positivity as you indicated especially in cases like arizona, texas, florida and nevada. so we know that this is not due to increased testing and this is due to more community spread of this virus. this is concerning because we know we don't have the measures in place to stop this. a lot of places and a lot of politicians aren't taking this seriously and i'm worried because i know what comes next and i know what happens when you have a huge increase in cases and people continue to stream through the e.r. doors and icu doors and will unfortunately die until we take this seriously. >> until they run out of space and the care to keep you alive while your body is fighting this virus that is when the needless deaths continue to pile up. >> the doctor told my colleagues that at this point from what he
sees, the entire response to covid should be taken out of the hands of the white house and handed over to the cdc to lead the response, to be the public face. do you agree? >> i do, look. wef seen the response from this administration from the white house coronavirus task force. it has failed. we are an outliar. the european union opened up travel to many countries in and we are not allowed in because we have cases surging all across this country. it is not just one hot spot. it is multiple hot spots throughout the u.s. in multiple, different states. we need to do something different. this administration has tried and it has failed. we need professionals in charge of this response. politicians masquerading as public health professionals resulted in this horrible pandemic in the u.s. and it results in politicians making public health statements that don't make much sense and don't help and the politicians being responsible for setting
precedent around things like masks and the end result is that this country has failed and the pandemic response has failed and we need new leadership and we need it now otherwise more americans will continue to be infected in the next months and years. >> texas is one of the hot spots because it is not one of the only places that are hot spots. this is a graph of the hospitalization rate in texas right now. this graphic is particularly scary, i think, when you see how high, how quickly, how fast it is going up right now. i know, forget me, i know it scares people working in texas hospitals. it scares local officials there that i've interviewed. do you think, when you see this, this is what the rest of the country is going to look like? >> if we don't take it seriously and take a public health approach to this, absolutely. if you see a lot of people, sure cases are increasing and it's because of more testing and
that's partly true and there's more spread because the positivity percentage is increasing. hospitalizations have an increase. we are seeing that they are now all across the country. the other thing i hear is deaths are still down. true, they are now which is really, really wonderful and maybe it's because we're getting better treating this disease and dexamethasone that is treating, and deaths is a lagging indicator and from the time you get sent to the hospital and put on a respirator and then you die is long. soon what we'll be having is all of these indicators, these really bad indicators, test percentage, new cases and deaths will be increasing as we hit the summer months and the same time that we should be reducing cases so in the fall and winter we can get to normal life and reopening schools. if we don't get this under control now we will not be able
to do that safely then. >> just reality is denying it isn't going to do anything to help anyone or stop it or slow it or get the economy back open again. that's what seems to be so confounding and you can see that in what you're saying and dr. anthony fauci denying it gets you absolutely nowhere which is where we seem to be in so many places. dr. spencer, thank you. >> the white house is struggling to explain what the president knew about russian bounties on u.s. troops and what he is doing or isn't, quite frankly, about it. the intel came in more than a year ago. i try to put my arm around any vet that i can, absolutely.
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top members of congress known as the gang of eight will be getting a briefing tomorrow on the intelligence that russia was offering bounties to the taliban to kill u.s. service members in afghanistan. there have been so many moving parts to this extremely serious story. cnn has some fresh reporting about who knew what and when within the trump administration
as the president continues to declare that he wasn't briefed, he didn't know and now declaring in several tweets this morning that the intelligence is a hoax created by journalists. cnn's kylie atwood is at the department. what is the latest reporting about this assessment and when it appeared in the president's briefing materials and what was done about it? >> well, kate, this actually dates back to 2019. we have reported that in early 2019 the white house was provided with intelligence that russian actors were providing the taliban with bounties to kill u.s. soldiers. that was over a year ago. it came back to the fore earlier this year when this was in the president's presidential daily brief. that's the intelligence that he receives from the intelligence community on a daily basis. we also know that there was an interagency process that was run out of the national security
council at the white house under the leadership of national security adviser robert o'brien to develop options to respond if this was indeed true and robert o'brien spoke about that this morning, but still doubled down on what the white house has been saying that the president wasn't made aware of this because it wasn't verifiable. now we have democrats who have been briefed on this intelligence and they're saying that they want to hear from the intelligence community rather than the white house because they feel that what's coming out of the white house is essentially the white house's version of this and then you have republicans who some of them are saying that it makes sense this the president wouldn't have known about this because it wasn't verifiable and senator inhofe said after a briefing yesterday that he believed that the president didn't know about this intelligence. let's listen to that.
>> i don't think we have the sound. >> we don't have that, but he did say that he was convinced that the president didn't know about this. now we just at the state department had a briefing here with secretary of state mike pompeo who really wouldn't get into the intelligence of when the questions came about it who said that the premise of the questions was not, indeed, true, but what he did say is that the administration acted seriously, they acted appropriately. they did the precise thing they were supposed to do in this situation without getting into the intelligence himself. so he really defended the process of the national security apparatus of the trump administration and this, of course, comes as there has been a lot of criticism of that process breaking down. we have an editorial from the
national security adviser susan rice to president obama who said that if this intelligence had come across her plate she would have marched right into the oval office and told the president even if it wasn't 100% sure she would have told the president that this intelligence was there so it can then forge a way forward and she would get to the bottom of it. that's not what happened here. >> so, john, you've got the president now calling it a hoax created by journalists, but again, this intelligence was enough to pass along to commanders on the ground, pass long to allies overseas. i want to play, i want to get your take, but i want to play where this has left kayleigh mcenany to press on whether or not he actually reads his intel briefs. >> the president does read and he consumes intelligence verbally. this president, i'll tell you is the most informed person on planet earth when it comes to
the threats that we face. >> where does this leave the president and what will they now do with this serious intelligence? >> no and most of what the white house has had to say about this entire episode with the president and his aides has been pure nonsense. it does not wash to say we didn't take it to the president because it is not confirmed. you brief allies and members of congress. you don't brief the president of the united states. that doesn't make any sense. then you had robert o'brien, the national security adviser saying we can't get to the bottom of it because it's been exposed by the press. that is also nonsense. we know from "the new york times" that they have financial transfer ridiculouses th transfer records that russian intelligence transferred money to a taliban account. it doesn't mean everything is verified in this account and you take information like that about security threats to the
president of the united states. the president, by his reaction, i didn't know. i wasn't briefed seems to be affirming the description that john bolton has in his book, about an empty chair in the oval office. you take the information to the president and figure out a way to respond if it's true and put russia on notice and liz cheney who is a member of the house republican leadership said yesterday if these allegations are true there will be a swift and deadly response from the united states. we haven't heard anything close to that from this administration and the best case scenario, given the president's long record of deference to vladimir putin and rushsia, the best cas scenario is he's simply indifferent to the welfare of his troops and the responsibilities of his office. >> you know who might want to be listening to the liz cheney
military service members and their families and that is one group that the president has not spoken to since all of this has come out. there's been no address to military men and women and their families serving overseas. thanks, guys. appreciate it. still ahead, bars are bad. that is one message from top public health experts this week. are they to blame for the current spike? ♪ ♪all strength ♪we ain't stoppin' believe me♪ ♪go straight till the morning look like we♪ ♪won't wait♪ ♪we're taking everything we wanted♪ ♪we can do it ♪all strength, no sweat
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another state forced to reverse course. colorado announcing bars and nightclubs that don't serve food throughout the state must close their doors once again, two weeks -- just two weeks after allowing them to reopen. colorado joins a growing list of states reversing or pausing on allowing people to gather amid spikes in coronavirus cases. what is the risk level here? what is it about bars that is grabbing so much attention and garnering so much concern from so many state leaders and even dr. anthony fauci. listen. >> a congregation at a bar inside is bad news. we've really got to stop that right now when you have areas that are surging like we see right now.
>> joining me right now is dr. john sportsberg, professor of medicine. thank you for being here. dr. fauci made his views on bars pretty clear there. what is it about bars that appears to be so problematic? >> they're congregating people together, the last thing we ought to be doing during a pandemic. particularly, bars are particularly hazardous because after drinking people lose their inhibbings a ini h inhibitions and be less careful. >> all sorts of things kind of combined together. tech tex h texas has closed bars. colorado has closed bars. at this point with what you just described do you think every state should be shutting down bars right now?
>> of course. i mean, you can argue this in states that are not having a problem which there are very few right now, perhaps they could consider not doing that at this point, but frankly, i think, as a national approximately see we ought to be doing that and let's recognize that bars again, are a symbol. anything that congregates people together particularly inside where people can't wear masks and cannot social distance is absolutely -- it is absolutely crazy during this pandemic. >> i was wondering, is there a difference from a bar to eating indoors because there seems to clearly be a distinction that's being made in certain states between eating inside and the bar scene, do you see where we stand with seeing these spikes, do you see a difference there?
>> not much. the big difference is what i was seeing earlier is that after drinking alcohol you lose your inhibitions and you are less likely to be careful and that's really the only distinction and of course, eating at restaurants, many people drink in any case. so not much of a distinction. >> some other moves that local leaders are making are closing down beaches. we're seeing that in a few cases around the country and i'm wondering if it's the exact opposite. you talked about congregating and it is by definition, outdoors. do you think closing down a beach is as effective as closing down a bar? >> it's not as effective because bars are typically inside or even if they're outside they had the problems that we are discussing, but congregating together in any setting is hazardous right now. look it, we've gone through this period of time where beginning in early may we started to liberalize things and people
were starting to get back together and we're seeing the consequences of that now. think of those pictures on memorial day where people are congregating inside. outside is safer than inside and outside is not, therefore safe and congregating in large groups are congregating together in moderate-sized groups is hazardous at this time including beaches. >> hearing that message consistently that you are saying from across the board seems to be what is really missing right now in terms of the real need, this virus is not going away. people still need to be listening to this guidance. thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> don lemon, dana bash will be hosting cnn's fourth of july, a fireworks and all-star musical line up, jewel, barry manilow, c.c. winans and many others at 8:00 saturday night.
there is consensus now that face coverings work. they help and they are needed to stop the spread. why, then, did one florida mayor just get overruled after trying to mandate face coverings in her city. entation of a capitol fourth! with your hosts john stamos and vanessa williams and performances from coast to coast. featuring: patti labelle, john fogerty, the temptations, andy grammer yolanda adams, renée fleming, trace adkins brian stokes mitchell, chrissy metz, mandy gonzalez, and a tribute to our frontline workers. it's the fortieth anniversary of a capitol fourth. saturday july fourth, eight- seven central. only on pbs. - [narrator] this is steve. he used to have gum problems. now, he uses therabreath healthy gums oral rinse with clinically-proven ingredients and his gum problems have vanished. (crowd applauding) therabreath, it's a better mouthwash. at walmart, target and other fine stores. young woman: yeah, thanks mom
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one thing has definitely happened this week. a groundswell of support from across the country and across the political spectrum for face coverings from top medical experts to top lawmakers to top state officials all saying face coverings are a must to stop the surge of cases, cases that much of the country is seeing right now. there seems to be an agreement
except, of course, coming from the president of the united states who still refuses to lead by example. another exception, milton -- take milton, florida. the mayor followed other neighboring cities in trying to mandate through executive order the use of face coverings. here's the twist. the city council unanimously overruled her this week. why? >> joining me now is the mayor of milton, florida, fit, what upon you seeing in the date that got you to the place of requiring face coverings were necessary for the city? >> we've had not single death and no deaths. we're now monitoring seven different addresses within our city limits and a town of fewer than 10,000 people.
so we recognize that there is a spread in addition because of close contact with other local health department and close conduct among ourselves and emergency management neem our ciour -- team in our city. we can see what's happening in our county and zip code. watching that we saw many cases going -- all voted vo overrule and rescind. why are they opposed to it? >> we heard a lot of feesback. the city council had a chance to
speak. i -- i heard concerns whether the science is there. in general i feel they would have preferred it nod be a mandate. we know from contact tracing of cases locally, socializing, those activities are contradicting to the spread. >> but mayor -- mayor, concerns that a mask is going to hurt a small business or that the science isn't there? that doesn't make much sense. >> it doesn't make a lot of sense to a lot of people in the community, but there was a group of people wearing shirts fill
the our chamber and heard voicing objections to this. >> this happened after. do you consider going back -- let me play association question be reminded what the nation's top public health expert said just this week about face masks. listen to this, mayor. >> yes, of course. i think mask, extremely important and we keep hammering home and what you just mentioned is as important. there's no doubt wearing masks protects you. >> embrace universal use of mask coverings. i ask those listening to spread the word. >> why is this message not getting through to the city council members? >> i wholeheartedly agree with the comments. the messaging wasn't consistent,
people were discouraged. that raised questions whether the community can trust what the government saying. i think a unified national response withhelped us. that people understand the science. love their neighbor enough to show compassion and wear a mask to protect others. i'm trying to help others understand it's protects others not themselves. the work before me i'll continue to do. the critical we adopt this policy, in my view. >> learning, science we're seeing it protects others and also we're hearing from dr. anthony fauci data it protects yourself. it protects everything. masks, face covering protect everything. as they're now hammering home. a unified consistent message.
i hear it from you and so many mayors across the country right now. thank you for your time. coming up for us, fleeing from facebook, the it'sboycott getting bigger. response from mark zuckerberg. because a changing environment should mean caring for the land that takes care of us all. at bayer, everything we do, from advances in health to innovations in agriculture, is to help every life we touch. at bayer, this is why we science.
let's take a quick look at markets now. show you big board for you. the dow just about flat at this moment. keep you close eye on that. reminder, you can always get the latest info on markets now streaming live at 12:45 eastern only on cnn business. also in business, cnn learned facebook's ceo mark zuckerberg will meet with civil rights groups amid a growing advertising boycott from big named companies across the board protesting how the social media giant handles hate speech and misinformation. cnn's brian is with me now. how is facebook responding? >> reporter: facebook is saying it doesn't profit from hate, in a blog post, a top facebook exec. is saying that the company may never completely eliminate hate from its platform but it is constantly improving.
that echoes remarks that he gave to cnn earlier over the weekend. let's have a listen. >> facebook, we have absolutely no incentive to tolerate hate speech. we don't like it. our users don't like it. advertising understand that we don't like it. you know, we don't benefit from hate speech. of course not. we benefit from positive, human connection. not -- not hate. >> now, obviously that hasn't stopped a number of major brands from pulling their advertising from facebook. that includes companies like verizon, unilever, ford, adidas, hersheys and more. at this point hundreds of companies have now pulled their advertising from facebook and instagram for at least the month of july, and possibly longer, and you know, this could last potentially well into next year, if facebook does not take actions that, know, address the concerns of some of these
protests. obviously, if you look at the top 100 brands that advertise on facebook, only -- they all represent about 6% of facebook's revenue, according to pathmatics, a market intelligence firm. that highlights how difficult it will be for this campaign to exert a lot of financial pressure on mark zuckerberg and could be harder especially when you think about the way facebook is structured. zucker bherg zuckerberg is ceo and can't be fired because of the way he holds shares of the company. hopefully with this civil rights group, groups meeting with zuckerberg, in the coming weeks, perhaps they may be able to address some of the concerns and push for changes at facebook rit large. >> brian, thank very much. hello once again. top of the hour. i'm kate bolduan.