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tv   Fareed Zakaria GPS  CNN  September 26, 2021 10:00am-11:00am PDT

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good guys, and the other side is the bad guys, and you only accept the information that reaffirms that narrative, well, you're revealing a part of your soul that needs to be fixed, not a part that needs to be broadcast to the world. thanks for spending your sunday morning with us "fareed zakaria gps" starts now. this is "gps," global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria, coming to you live from new york. ♪ we will begin today's program with the french ambassador to the united states, philippe etienne. france became furious over a u.s./u.k. security pact.
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>> the united states has no closer ally than australia. >> ambassador etienne was recalled back to paris. i will ask him when he can get back to washington and whether the riff between the two old allies is mended. also, what did the fall of kabul look like in the other democracy midwifed by u.s.-occupied withdrawal. i will ask iraqi president barham saleh. >> i will say the u.s. stands in the corruption possibility. the king of sweden declared his nation's relaxed handling of the covid crisis a failure. does the country's prime minister agree? i'll ask him. first, here's "my take." on september 15th, the u.s. and britain announced they were signing an agreement with australia to share technology for nuclear-powered submarines
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as part of a new enhanced security partnership to be known as aukus. a day after that announcement, however, came another that received relatively little coverage. china formally applied to join the comprehensive progressive agreement for trans-pacific partnership, the successor of the tpp, trade pact negotiated and provided by the obama administration in large part to counter china's economic growing dominance at issue. donald trump withdrew from the agreement three days after entering the white house. taken together the two announcements show the complexity of the china challenge. in the wake of washington's withdrawal from afghanistan, many have commented on america's short-term thinking, it's mercurial foreign policy and it's lack of staying power. but the aukus deal illustrates that on the big issues, the opposite is true.
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for 15 years now, the united states has been gradually pivoting away from europe and the middle east and towards asia. during the cold war, europe was the central arena in which geopolitical competition took place. after the collapse of the soviet union in 1991, america began shifting its gaze east. despite the post cold war demobilization, bill clinton pledged to keep 100,000 u.s. troops in asia. then came the level that forced america to focus on the middle east, 9/11, but then george bush broke with decades of policy and normalized india's nuclear program, largely to gain an ally to deter china. obama came into office consc consciously touting a pivot to asia. the day he announced 2,500 troops in australia, he declared -- >> united states is a pacific
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power, and we are here to stay. >> donald trump's own strategy towards china was the usual personalized circus, zigzagging between slavish admiration for chinese president xi jinping and outspoken attacks over trade deficits and later covid-19. but his administration followed and deepened the pivot strategy, withdrawing more troops from the middle east and turning attention to the pacific. it took the quad, a loose and mostly ineffective security dialogue between the u.s., australia, japan and india, and strengthened military cooperation among the four nations with an implicit orientation to deter china. the crucial accelerator of the pivot to asia has been china. beijing's belligerent foreign policy, a break from previous decades, has unnerved most of its neighbors.
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india was long the most reluctant member of the quad, alienating its huge neighbor to the north and u.s. counter to delegation. but they changed their approach after bloody skirmishes on the indough chai niece border that gained india not much more than a frozen waste land in the himalayas. today india readily engages with joint military exercises with the quad and banned chinese involvement with various aspects of the indian economy. similarly, china's imperious 14 demands issued to australia last year seemed to have played a crucial role in pushing canberra to search for a more robust deterrent against beijing and, thus, ask north america for nuclear-powered submarines. that brings me to china's bid to join the cptpp. could it be an approach that uses china's economic and
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cultural means? xi jinping does not seem like a man who acknowledges error, but could it be he's quietly attempting a course correction after seeing the disastrous results of his wolf warrior diplomacy? could china actually join the cptpp? it's unlikely since in key areas remains an nonmarketable economy, which is incompatible with the group's requirements. but were they somehow to manage that process, it would be a remarkable move of jujitsu, a trade of investments designed to combat chinese influence would end up becoming one more platform in which china's weight was paramount. the submarine deal was a big and smart strategic move. it plays to american's strengths, which are military and political. what if the china challenge is fundamentally economic and technological?
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rejoining the trade pact is politically difficult in america, but it might be strategically more important than eight australian submarines which will begin to be deployed 19 years from now. don't take my word for it. ash carter, obama's defense secretary said in 2015 -- >> tpp is important to me as another aircraft carrier. >> josh campbell, the white house policymaker in asia, went further that same year -- >> if we did everything right in asia and not get tpp, we can't get a passing grade. we can do everything wrong, cancel meetings, insult inadvertently led leaders and get ttp, and we have a b. >> what mr. campbell was right? go to for a link to my "washington post" column this week. and let's get started.
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♪ paris' reaction to the aukus submarine deal was swift and furious, as france was scheduled to provide subs to australia. but this week biden spoke to france's macron by phone and said biden holds himself responsible for the lack of consultation with america's oldest ally. british prime minister boris johnson, however, took a rather different tact. >> i just think it's time for some of our dearest friends around the world to put on a grip about all of this, a break. >> joining me to talk about it is france's ambassador to the united states, phillippe etienne, who is still in france. when will you get back? >> thank you very much for having me.
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soon. during our two presidents, our president announced i will be back next week. so i have a couple of consultations to complete but then i will be back in washington, where i will have a lot of work to do with our american intelligence. >> did president biden apologize to president macron? >> you can read their common statement. i think it is important to underline that the phone call was completed by joint statement, and i think you mentioned it just before we talked. there is a recognition that we should have had more consultations, because we are allies, and if we are really allies, allies behave in another way. they consult each other. and it did not happen. it cost a tremendous amount of trust. we lost trust.
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now the way ahead is to find again the trust and find again the trust, and it will be my work and work of the two governments, we have to work together on very important issues, which have been discussed by the two presidents, which are in the joint statement and we have to decide on common actions. >> let me ask you, phillippe, one of the differences between france and britain, for example, is the u.s. always cooperated and shared nuclear technology with britain. does france want to be in that group? there's always been a sense in washington france does not want to be seen as that close an ally of america. your own officials, in describing reaction to this deal, describe britain as a vassal of washington, a fifth wheel.
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is france willing to put aside its gallism and actually be the close ally to washington where you could imagine shared nuclear technology? >> fareed, what does it mean to be a close ally? we are very close allies. this explains also our strong reaction to the recall of the ambassador. we fight together against terrorist groups. we are engaged in the indo-pacific. we are a indo-pacific nation actually. we have military regimes. we have submarines, also nuclear submarines. but what the australians had wanted from us to get a submarine fleet and transfer of technologies following, conventional submarines, we were never asked about moving to
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another direction. we just heard about the new deal on the day it was announced. this is an issue, and this is an issue between very close allies. i think we have always been very close allies with the united states. >> can i ask -- >> yes, fareed, excuse me. >> can i ask, would you be willing to be that close? it seems to me, yes, there was a lack of consultation. i would point out france took this deal from japan in 2016. japan had a handshake deal with the australians, and the french fairly cleverly undercut the japanese entirely. all is fair in love, war and diplomacy. my point is today if you're asked, would you be willing to be that close to the united states? president macron has talked about the need for strategic autonomy for france and europe. particularly on china. does he have a different policy on china than washington? >> first in 2016, when we won the contract, it was completely different. it was a competition.
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it was a competition. it was completely different. and then on china, the european union, because it is not a french-only issue. there's a european dimension. our indo-pacific, european deal, was the same day in the country. there is policy on china. we described china on three pillars with our policy towards it, as a systemic rival, as a competitor and as a partner in some global issues such as climate. we have, of course, our european policy, and since you speak with autonomy of europe, i prefer the term european sovereignty. we have developed our own instruments, including in the field of security.
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and you know what? it's the best way for the u.s. to have a stronger ally, a european ally who is more able, including in security, to do things the u.s. doesn't warrnt do. >> phillippe, pleasure to talk with you and we look forward to working you back to the united states where you have been a very effective ambassador. >> thank you, fareed, thank you. same for me. i look forward to seeing you again. next on "gps," i will talk to the president of iraq barham salih about what it was like to watch the fall of kabul from baghdad. some people have joint pain, plus have high blood pressure. they may not be able to take just anything for pain. that's why doctors recommend tylenol®.
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all eyes have been on afghanistan for the last month, but there's another forever war that america will end soon. president biden said the combat mission in iraq will officially be over by the new year. what will that mean for iraq? i had a chance to sit down with the president of that country, barham salih, while he was in new york for the u.n. general assembly this week. >> mr. president, welcome. >> thank you for having me, fareed. >> when you watched the fall of afghanistan, the fall of the kabul government, the withdrawal of the americans, what was your reaction in europe? >> obviously, i was very concerned about the plight of the afghani people. i feel for them. i know what it means to be in a situation of conflict for so long. i know the plight of refugees having been a refugee myself, and iraqis forced to flee their own country. so i was very concerned about the plight of the afghani
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people. but there's also a lesson from what happened 20 years on from the american intervention and international intervention in iraq -- sorry, in afghanistan. no matter how much international support, and no matter how much investment is made in these situations without legitimacy and without good governance and without support of your own population, you cannot survive. the lesson of afghanistan that corruption stands in the way of governor governance, stands in the way of stability. hopefully the lesson learned from that is good governance should be at the heart of any international engagement anywhere in the world. and also the lesson for iraq as i was watching, it is all about us too as well. we have to claim the destiny of
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our countries. we have to have the legitimacy, the support, the tenacity to defend what is right for our own countries. we need international support. we will continue to need international support. but at the end of the day, it is about us. we need to fight for our own countries. >> do you worry about america's staying power? you heard the story, and the fear this shows america won't stay the course, it cuts and runs? >> obviously, there are a lot of stories to that effect, there are a lot of implications to what happened in afghanistan and everybody has to watch very carefully. to be fair the united states has been engaged in this war for the last 20 years or so. i can understand the reasoning behind the policy and it is not for me to question it. it is for americans to debate that. but at the end of the day, we cannot in this part of the world continue to blame our failures on the outside while trying to
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claim all the successes for ourself. i think for us in the case of iraq, we had the support for the united states and other members of the international community, and we will continue to need their support to develop our economy, to develop our societies for the better. but at the end of the day, we also need to move away from military dynamics to one of development, to one of developing our political systems based on good governance because at the end of the day, populations in that part of the world, like those of the united states, require better schools, hospitals, dignity, rule of law. and i hope we will do that. >> do you see the victory of the taliban inspiring remnants of isis in iraq? >> yes, yes, yes. across the region, not just in iraq. this has been seen by many of the extremist organizations. look at the chatter on social media and others, and you will see many of these extremist
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groups are inspired by what they consider to be a major victory for the taliban against the united states. >> do you think the saudis and iranians might restore relations? >> we hope so. obviously, there are impediments along the way, but we hope this will happen before too long. at the end of the day, we are neighbors. we need to talk even if we have differences. it's better to talk about those differences than staying in a state of disconnect. that's no good for the region. i'm hopeful, more hopeful than i have been in a long time, the dynamic is changing. at the end of the day going back to the afghan situation and lessons learned, at the end of the day we are people in this part of the world, and we have to seek solutions based on our interests. in the case of iraq, we have been a domain of conflict for regional actors and proxies that
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have fought along -- on iraqi soil with iraqi resources and with iraqi lives. we hope we change this dynamic. iraq -- a sovereign iraqi state could be the common denominator of interest between the various actors, between the iranians, arabs and turks. we should build infrastructure, railway, gas pipelines, trade routes and work together. fareed, what we have in this part of the world, really the problems are overwhelming while we're so much focused on terrorism and extremism, and we need to understand where that comes from. but at the end of the day, look at the case of iraq, we have 14 million population today. by 2050, it is estimated to be 18 million. and we simply can't find jobs for our young kids with the present dynamics. the same applies to the
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iranians, to the jordanians, to the egyptians, other neighbors of iraq. we need to come together. we need to build infrastructure, to expand our economies, integrate our economies. focus on what matters for all of us, fighting climate change, which is impacting our lives, all of our lives. we need to come together to really find ways where we deal with these issues that matter to our population, jobs, better quality of life, better schools, better health care, and to continue to be bogged down in this cycle of conflict forever is not on. and also the lesson is learned, you can't wait for the others to solve this for you. we are the people of that part of the world. we really had to come up with a solution based on what is required in that region. >> mr. president, pleasure to have you on. >> as always, sir. next on "gps," what would happen if a country never really went into lockdown even in the face of spiraling covid cases? well, we don't have to imagine. we can look at sweden. i will talk to that country's prime minister about the results
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last december many were surprised to hear a european monarch criticize his own government's handling of the covid-19 crisis. but we heard just that. sweden, as you recall, remained relatively free when much of europe was on strict lockdown.
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schools. restaurants and offices did stay open for the most part. i talked this week with sweden's prime minister, stefan lofven, who recently announced he will step down from that post. thank you for joining me. >> absolutely. it's my pleasure. >> sweden, no lockdown, the data suggests it was not a successful strategy. you had per capita, three times the number of deaths of denmark, even more when you compared to norway. do you think it was a fail your? >> no, i don't. it wasn't that big of a difference relative to other countries. we chose stay at home, kept the distance, used masks, we came to
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that later. it wasn't like do whatever you want. we trust to you do the right thing. so we were also quite harsh on stay home if you can, stay home, work from your home. >> compared to other countries in europe, you were the most relaxed. >> i wouldn't say relaxed, no. i think it's not a fair word to use. we should -- that is correct that compared to norway, finland, denmark, yes, high rate but as we saw the pandemic develop and we said also last spring, this is a marathon, it's not going to be over in the summer of 2020, it's going to last a long, long time, which it did, and you have countries with lockdowns that did not mane to keep the number of deaths down. so i think we should wait with a
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final evaluation. one thing we were criticized for is we didn't close schools. that was a huge debate in sweden, also outside sweden. today i think most of countries that closed schools regret that they did, so i think we should wait for the final evaluations. >> did the king make a mistake saying it was a failure -- >> i will not debate what the king said, but at the same time we, of course, felt -- one casualty, one people dyeing from covid, that, of course, is sad. we would have wanted zero, of course. so in that perspective, yeah, we would have wanted to do even better. but i guess all countries would. >> if you could do it again, would you do a lockdown? >> no. once again, lockdown for week, two weeks. but if you have this kind of disease running in the country
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for more than a year, can you lock down a country a year? we've seen also what happened in countries with harsh lockdowns, what it meant to people. >> part of your rationale in keeping some things open and keeping some things voluntary you didn't want to kill economic volatility. but your economy suffered as big a drop, in fact slightly more than denmark, finland, norway. does it mean it wasn't successful in that sense? >> then again, if you compare our economy that drop to others in europe, i would not say we have a worst case. we do not -- we quite fast are recovering now. we're such a strong economy, so that we now are investing a lot in restarting our economy. no, we didn't suffer financially
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worse than other countries, and we can now see a quite fast recovery. >> is this experience with covid one of the reasons why you are retiring? you have been called the houdini of swedish policy, managed to survive everything. is this why you're leaving? >> no, no, nothing to do with that. we have an election coming up in september of next year. i have been a party leader for almost ten years now, prime minister for seven years, and i thought it was time now to leave and to do that before the election, well before the election, so people know that the person that is now leading our party will stay there for years to come. and also can be the prime minister for years to come. >> prime minister, thank you so much for coming on the show. >> thank you. next on "gps" there was a
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lot of talk at the u.n. this week about getting serious on climate change. will it amount to anything? we'll be back in a moment with katharine hayhoe, a climate scientist who is actually optimistic about the possibility of collective action. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. you booked a cozy vrbo mountain cabin. [laughs] with a kitchen where everyone can chef. [laughs] a family room where you can let your hair down. and a backyard that is a tree-lined living room. but the thing they'll remember forever? watching the game together once again. ♪ the time for getting back together is now. ♪ find it on vrbo.
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it's a simple fact: it even kills the covid-19 virus. science supports these simple facts. there's only one true lysol. lysol. what it takes to protect. at a speech at the u.n. general assembly, president biden questioned whether the world would meet the threat of climate change or suffer from the ever-worsening heat, floods and cold and drought? it's a fair question. thus far, there's been a lot of hand-wringing on the world stage, but not close to enough action. joining me is the author of a brand new book "saving us: a climate scientist's case for hope and healing in a divided world." welcome, katharine, what do you
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think is the cause of the partisanship on climate in america? >> it's a symptom of the polarization on almost every issue that is tearing us apart. at the root of that polarization is fear. the world is changing so fast, too many people as if they're losing out and others feel as if it's not changing fast enough. the answer is not to continue to divide even further but recognize what we all have in common is what is greater than what divides us. in the case of climate change, it doesn't knock on your door and ask who you voted for before it destroys it, climate change affects us all and we all need to be part of fixing it. >> so you in some senses, perhaps you understand the fear or the opposition to thinking about doing something serious about climate change because you grew up in a very christian household. you're still a practicing christian. do you think there's a way to reach out to people who have
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been resistant? again, this is almost uniquely an american phenomenon, so i stress the american issue. you talk about a better narrative. what is the narrative that would work, do you think, to convince people? >> well, it is most noticeable in the united states, and i live in texas myself, where the signal-to-noise ratio is very high. but i'm canadian and i see it in canada as well. when people attack me online from the uk, they're all pro-brexit. in augs israeli yeah, there's a strong climate denial, too. so it's spreading around the world. to counteract it, rather than beginning what they most disagree on, you have to figure something you agree on. sometimes it can be a shared faith, but as i talk about in my book, it can be many other things. it can be the place we live, the fact we're both parents. we might enjoy the same outdoor activities or beer or wine. these things might sound insignificant, but i've had incredible conversations on why climate change matters and what we can do about it that literally started with knitting.
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>> but that's one to one. you need something -- what is joe biden going to do or somebody who has to convince millions and millions of people? >> we ran an experiment where we made four short videos by an air force general, a republican congressman, a libertarian and then me speaking from a christian perspective. they ran them on social media in purple districts in the united states, where there were republicans and democrats. after running them on social media, researchers from yale tracked republican opinion on climate change. it moved significantly because they had seen climate framed in terms of their values, national security, the free market, individual rights and a faith-based frame. >> so one of the things you say in the book is we have a kind of pot luck of solutions, and that tends to confuse people. what's the best way to clarify that?
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to me it seems obvious the single simplest solution is the carbon tax. it's what the government does best, tax what you want less of, subsidize what you want more of, so tax carbon and subsidize new technologies. is that it? >> i'm not an economist, but nearly every economist in the world, including the two who won the nobel prize two years ago, agree pricing carbon makes sense. there's a price on carbon in canada and in many other countries in the world. making polluters pay does make sense. and it spurs innovation in many other areas. farmers can get the benefit of putting carbon back in the soil, where we want it, instead of the atmosphere, where we don't. people can make personal decisions but even corporations and businesses that reduce carbon emissions, they also benefit too. so it sends a price signal for each of us to decide. when i say each, i don't mean individuals, mine schools,
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universities, places of worship, businesses, cities, towns, you get the picture, all of us to figure out what we can bring to the table, incentivized by a price on carbon. >> the final point, i just want to highlight something you say in the book, the problem is not out in the future, it's happening right now. we lost 4 million people around the world to covid, but we lose 9 million people every year to the effects of breathing polluted air, largely because of the burning of fossil fuels, right? >> that's a stunning number and i can't believe we don't know that number. we all know about covid, but who knew air pollution was responsible for almost 9 million premature deaths every year and air pollution comes from fossil fuels? >> we have to leave it there. terrific book, thank you so much, kathy hayhoe. >> thank you. and we will be back.
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earlier this week, president biden pledged before the u.n. to renew and protect democracy. >> authoritarianism, the authoritarianism of the world may seem to proclaim the end of the age of democracy, but they are wrong. >> he's right to note a worrying trend. the world does indeed face a democratic recession. the phrase was coined by the
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hoover institution's larry diamond to describe an erosion of civil liberties around the globe. he notes a worrying trend where more countries in the last five years have abandoned democracy than embraced it. it's gotten worse in the last year and a half. under the cover of covid there has been a steady slide towards authoritarianism. for instance, we've told you about hungary's flirtation with autocracy as the prime minister seized emergency executive powers and stymied opposition, but he's hardly alone. take venezuelan manned maduro. quarantine measures were co-opted to crack down on critics of his regime and in uganda opposition found they were subject to coronavirus restrictions, but amidst all this back sliding there is one bright spot, taiwan. that's according to the newest report from the economist intelligence unit which ranks the self-governing island at
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number 11 globally, the highest rated democracy in asia. it jumped 20 spots since 2019, more than any other government in the entire world. taiwan's score is largely driven by its election in january 2020. turnout was an astonishing 75% and in contrast to another 2020 election taiwan's election's loser graciously and quickly conceded calling for unity. the success of this election is a testament to the strength of taiwan's democracy. it's a relatively new system. voters have only picked their own representatives since 1992, and over the last step years power has been increasingly consolidated in the hands of the people, and in 2012 taiwan began creating a digital democracy giving citizens tools to debate, audit and collaborate on government digitally.
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moreover, anyone in taiwan can access the internet without censorship, so it's no surprise that taiwan boasts one of the most free online environments in the world, ahead of other democracies like germany and even the united states. that's according to freedom house. participation is effective offline, too and student-led protesters who objected to a proposed trade agreement with china took to the street and even occupied parliament. they were successful. the deal was abandoned. taiwan's covid response boosted public trust in the government even further. its population of 24 million had only 16,000 cases. compare that to another island with a similar population, australia, where covid cases are more than five times that number. the economist intelligence unit report a type "a" strategy for the government to avoid the kinds of restrictions that
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hampered civil liberties in so many other countries, but for all its achievements this democracy is conditional. though self-governing, taiwan is not technically a sovereign state. just across the strait is china which claims taiwan is part of its territory and is determined to reunify the island with the mainland. in the meantime, china excerpts control where it can. taiwan's independent elections are allegedly subject to persistent interference from beijing's meddling and disinformation campaigns, and the island is relatively isolated because china makes other nations and international bodies choose. if you recognize and have relations with beijing, you can't have them with taipei. and the backdrop for all of this is the constant threat of military intervention, whether from president xi jinping's belligerent language or the regular incursings by chinese warplanes. so over the last few years taiwanese democrats watched
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anxiously as china's supposed one-country two-systems model in hong kong was eroded. china has also proposed this model to taiwan, a model that 88% of taiwan ease reject according to a government commissioned survey, and as the protest movement fell and as china asserts control over hong kong every month, it's a bleak reminder to taiwan and to president biden that democracy at the mercy of an authoritarian behemoth is fragile at best. thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week, and i will see you next week. for people who could use a lift new neutrogena® rapid firming. a triple-lift serum with pure collagen. 92% saw visibly firmer skin in just 4 weeks.
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hello, everyone. thanks so much for joining me this sunday. i'm fredericka whitfield. we begin with a chaotic scene in montana after an amtrak train derailed killing at least three people and injuring seven others. more than 140 passengers and about a dozen crew members were on the train at the time of the accident. officials say the injured were taken to four different hospital and five people remain hospitalized in stable condition. the train began in chicago. the national transportation safety board is sending a team to investigate, and cnn's natasha chen picks it up