tv CNN Newsroom With Alisyn Camerota and Victor Blackwell CNN May 2, 2022 12:00pm-1:00pm PDT
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a commander inside the steel factory where hundreds of civilians are still sheltering says the constant relentless shelling has prevented evacuations today. when i see five or six people die every day under bombs and the wounded die because they cannot get necessary medical care, and when i see what the soldiers eat, they're already starting to faint because of hunger. i think it is necessary to address the world community, end quote. and this just in, ukrainian soldiers are reporting that they killed five russians in an attempted assault on that plant. now, over the weekend, about 100 people made it out. one of them described living in two months of darkness. these images exclusive to cnn show how russian strikes pulverized the compound. russian state tv broadcasted that troops on the outskirts are engaged in what they call a step by step clearing operation. >> translator: we are finally here, establishing ourselves,
not officially canteen 5, this is where the story has to end, as there will be no more resistance. >> today there are also new details of ukraine making progress in the fight against vladimir putin. ukraine reported that a drone took out two russian ships, and the ukrainian defense confirmed its forces have won back control of several settlements to the north and east of kharkiv. that's the biggest city in ukraine's east. now, according to a senior u.s. defense official, 70 howitzers from the u.s. have reached ukraine, and 200 ukrainian fighters have been trained to use them. let's bring in cnn's anderson cooper he joins us from kyiv, ukraine, as you have been describing about those people trapped in the factory, we don't know how many are still trapped in the steel factory. there are also civilians, women, children, elderly trapped elsewhere in mariupol, do we know what their status is? >> yeah, it's still not clear
exactly how many people were able to evacuate and exactly where they are right now. the united nations negotiated a deal with the russians to let the u.n. and red cross help with the evacuations so there's the evacuation that you've described for those inside the steel plant. there's the separate effort to get some civilians out of the city of mariupol itself, which has been, as you know, decimated by russian strikes. i want to get the latest on those right now with cnn scott mcclain joins us from lviv. we just learned about the evacuations from the steel plant could not happen today, what more do you know? >> it's pretty difficult to evacuate anyone from the steel plant when you have constant bombing, constant shelling, constant fire from the ground level as well. that's what's being described by troops on the ground, from inside that steel plant, anderson, that the assault on it is absolutely constant. it's not ending. and so it's not looking good for today. we know that 100 people were able to get out toward ukrainian territory. yesterday, the russians say that
21 people from the plant itself actually chose to go in the opposite direction, and go toward russian-held territory. it is not clear at this stage what has been agreed to, what the russians and the ukrainians have hammered out in terms of the detail, but ukrainian officials at least have said precious little, sort of going into this radio silence mode as they call it, because they don't want to do anything to jeopardize the success of this operation. you mentioned there are some 200 civilians, according to the troops there who are still there, who are still sheltering in place, hoping to get out. there are also wounded soldiers as well, but they would very much like to make some kind of an agreement to get them out. those negotiations we're told by the mayor's office are happening separately, and they're happening at a very high level, anderson, but that seems pretty hard to believe that any kind of an arrangement could be made to get soldiers out. even sergey lavrov said yesterday in an interview with
an italian television station said he thinks kyiv and president search are pushing the idea to get soldiers out because there are foreign mercenaries among their ranks. there's no evidence that we have seen that that's true, but obviously it's impossible to know without being there. >> scott mcclain, i appreciate it. thank you so much. russian forces are continuously shelling the town in the luhansk region, and the military administration says that residents there are on the ve verge of what they say is a humanitarian catastrophe. matt rivers is here with me in kyiv. is anyone planning evacuations for there? >> reporter: that has been the plans for a while, it's in the luhansk region, rubzhne, trying to get people out for weeks. we have heard from officials urging people to leave. we knew in a lot of ways this was going to happen at some point. the last time evacuation buses were able to get into rubzhne,
officials were able to drop off substantial food and water for the people there. they haven't been able to get in since then because it's so dangerous. as a result of that you're hearing officials basically giving up on getting people out, and what they're hoping is that doesn't play out in other towns across the front. >> the ukrainian military saying they hit two smaller russian bolts. >> reporter: i think this goes to show or the message ukraine wants to show it has capability to strike russian naval assets in the black sea. this is drone video that they put out. they show two russian patrol boats, raptor class patrol boats being taken out by ukrainian drones, according to the ukrainian military, in the black sea, and this is clearly the ukrainians trying to get the russian naval fleet to think twice about this, much like they did a couple of weeks ago when they managed to sink the moskva. >> and also the top russian general was visiting near the front lines, the combat zone.
>> reporter: this isn't fascinating. this is the chief of staff of russia's military. it's a very high up official, and according to the u.s. defense official, he in the beginning part of last week, he was toward the front lines. there was some reports that he was injured, a u.s. official telling cnn they can't confirm that. they also can't confirm exactly why he made that visit. does it signal for example that he has not a lot of confidence in the russian general running this war, but what we do know is this isn't happening in a vacuum, and russia has had lots of command and control issues throughout this war. does a top russian general coming to the front line, putting himself at risk signal that he does not have faith of the generals on the ground. it's certainly a hypothesis, and one the u.s. is looking into. >> appreciate it. one of the many problems with the russian forces, a number of russian generals, high ranking russian generals have been killed in this conflict as they move toward the front and try to get a handle on the logistical
problems the russian forces have been facing. >> it's difficult to get information about exactly how many. anderson, thank you very much, we'll check back with you. former homeland security secretary jay skeh johnson, and cipher, worked for the clandestine service, now a fellow, great to have you here today. secretary johnson, russia has warned the west and the u.s. specifically not to help ukraine or they would face severe retaliation. of course the u.s. has ignored that, and continued to help ukraine. how likely do you think it is that the retaliation, if it were to come, would come in the form of a cyber attack, and in particular, connected to the election systems say around the midterms. >> alisyn, we certainly have to be prepared for that. as time passes, as we do more and more in the western world, particularly the united states to aid ukraine, to defend
freedom. we have to anticipate that the russians in some form may plan some form of counter attack. most notably, a cyber attack. possibly on the u.s. government, possibly on critical infrastructure. i have been advising those in critical infrastructure, the defense industry, now even possibly financial services to be on high alert for a possible cyber attack. in many respects, alisyn, cyber space is a new battle space, and we simply have to be prepared. we know the russians have this capability. we know what they did in the 2016 election, and so we should be on high alert in cyber space. >> you know, i want to follow up on that, secretary johnson, because we're just getting new reporting in about exactly what you're talking about. a year-long pentagon pilot program found an array of software vulnerabilities at
dozens of defense contractors as russian and chinese hacker continue to try to steal sensitive data from the u.s. defense industrial base. that sounds very worrisome. you say you have been looking into that and warning about it, are we prepared for such a thing? >> the defense industrial base. i'm a director of a defense contractor, the defense industrial base, financial services are very very sophisticated when it comes to their own cyber defenses. attempts at theft of intellectual property. in the defense industry, elsewhere is not new. what we should be looking out for in particular is some form of counter offensive, some sort of attack, some sort of destructive malware attack. here in the united states. not just theft, not just ransom ware, but some form of malware that has the effect of degrading one or more systems.
>> deputy cipher, what do you think about whether or not we're prepared for what's come something. >> well, i think part of the problem for vladimir putin is he has been doing these things to us and the ukrainians sort of nonstop for a long time, involved in the political warfare or cyber warfare, espionage, even assassinations around europe, and part of the weakness that he's showing in ukraine is because he was pulling out all of these stops since 2014. they have been fighting ukrainians, hit with cyber attacks, they have been doing all of these kinds of things, when they were invaded, ukrainians knew the game plan. vladimir putin doesn't have many more bullets in his gun. he can threaten, he can intimidate. there isn't much more he can do. you know, he was likely to go after elections in any case. he was likely to get involved in espionage and theft. that's something they have been doing forever. so i think he'll try these things, but frankly he's been playing this game for a long time, and the longer he plays
it, the less effective he's going to be. >> i have another follow up for you deputy cipher. according to the u.s. ambassador for the organization of security and cooperation in europe, they say that the u.s. has highly credible intelligence reports that russia will try to annex the separatist occupied regions of donetsk and luhansk sometime in mid may and that there are plans to create a similarly so called people's republic in kherson to be annexed as well. i mean -- well, i want to know what you think about the credibility of that report and if that is the new goal from russia? >> yeah, in fact, you know, prior to the invasion, they had talked about, you know, annexing those groups in donbas, those places in donbas, too. but, you know, frankly, their goal was also to take kyiv, and you know, some of it has to do with what the defense does and the ukrainians do. that may very well be their goal. do they have the capability to do that? i think they, you know, shot a
l lot of what they're open to going into kyiv, and now they have to sort of pull back, try to use heavy artillery to take these areas. it's not completely clear that they can take extra territory and hold it. yes, that may be a goal. that's not really very surprising but the ukrainians that asked about that. >> secretary johnson, do you think all of the sanctions that the biden administration has put on russia, have they enhanced our national security or made us more in jeopardy? >> they've certainly enhanced our national security in terms of the defense of freedom around the world. i believe that sanctions will have an impact. sanctions tend to have a long-term impact, and it's something we just absolutely need to do. this was an illegal, unprovoked invasion. numerous war crimes are being
committed by vladimir putin against a free people in ukraine. the united states cannot afford to sit and do nothing and so sanctions are appropriate, all the other measures we are taking now, i believe, are fully appropriate, though, as i said earlier, we need to be on full alert for some form of possible action by vladimir putin directed against the united states. and i'm sure we are. >> jeh johnson, john cipher, thank you both very much for your expertise. well, germany aligns with the european union, and now supports a russian oil embargo. ahead, how this could reshape the war in ukraine. >> and a special grand jury is selected in georgia in the investigation into whether donald trump interfered with the 2020 election. that's next.
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a grand jury, a special grand jury is now in place in the investigation into whether former president trump and his allies committed a crime in their efforts to overturn the 2020 election. cnn political correspondent sara murray joins us now. sarah, what happens next? well, look, they have chosen their grand jurors, they have 23 of them. they had three alternates. these are people who were going to be solely focused on this trump investigation. they are going to convene and deliberate in secret. they are going to do this once a week, a couple of times a week starting in june and they have wide investigative powers, they are going to be able to witness testimony and subpoena documents. they will be able to subpoena phone records and they'll have a year to do their work. the district attorney has told
us she hopes to make a decision about whether to bring charges before the end of the year. this is not the grand jury that could issue an indictment, but the one doing the investigating. what are they investigating? it all goes back to the infamous call that happened between donald trump and georgia secretary of state brad ra raffensperger. >> fellows, i need 11,000 votes, give me a break. we have that in spades already. >> now, this went on for over an hour with trump pressuring the georgia secretary of state. since then, the district attorney bonnie willis has interviewed about 50 people voluntarily. but her investigation is not happening in a vacuum. it's happening at the same time as we've seen the house select committee investigating january 6th turn up a mountain of new information that could potentially be relevant to this investigation in georgia.
one of the series of text messages that mark meadows handed over to that committee that came out in a court filing shows a georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger in this tense phone call. he's telling mark me dadows, ne to end this call. i don't think this will be productive much longer. meadows says okay. fuchs says, thank you, wow. stuff like this shows you how tense this was in realtime. we don't know if it will be pertinent to the dp.a.'s investigation. plenty to get through. >> thank you for all of that reporting. let's bring in cnn legal analyst, elie honig, the former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. great to have you here. what potential crimes is the district attorney looking at? >> alisyn, the d.a. has given us pretty clear clues as to where she's focused. in her letter asking judges to appoint this special grand jury,
she has a quote reasonable probability that the state of georgia's administration of elections in 2020 was subject to possible criminal disruptions. now, under georgia law, it is a crime to solicit, meaning just to ask somebody to commit election fraud, and that includes willfully tampering with votes or certification. the term willfully is really important. what that means legally is they knew what they were doing was wrong and against the law. to that point, look for prosecutors to focus on, yes, the infamous call from donald trump to brad raffensperger ugh all i want to do is this, find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we can, here's the keyword, prosecutors are going to say why find, if he really thought he won, and why exactly that many votes, one more than he needed. that's going to be a key legal question here. >> who else might they be looking at? >> big names here as subjects or
witnesses, lindsey graham reportedly called brad raffensperger, the governor of georgia was called by donald trump who asked him to convene a special session of the georgia legislature, the georgia state attorney general chris carr reportedly asked him to not oppose a challenge to the georgia election results, and alisyn, what would a scandal be without rudy giuliani. we know that rudy went in front of the georgia state legislature and frankly he lied. he told them that 10,000 people in georgia had voted who were dead. the actual number was two. so all of them could receive subpoenas or be potential subjects. >> i mean, what you've just described sounds damming to my uninitiated ears, so what will a grand jury do that is different? >> so it's really important to understand the difference between a trial jury, we all know from watching trials, and a grand jury, the main thing a grand jury can do is issue subpoenas forcing people to testify. this isn't the congressional
subpoenas, you cannot mess with a grand jury subpoena. a trial jury of course has 12 members. a grand jury has 23 as sarah just reported. a trial jury must be unanimous. in a grand jury, all you need is a majority. it's much easier to get that. the burden of proof, you have to prove of course your case beyond a reasonable doubt to a trial jury, in a grand jury it's just probable cause. of course what a trial jury does is return a verdict, guilty or not guilty. all a grand jury can do is issue an indictment, as sara said, this is a special grand jury, all they can do is issue a recommendation that may go to a regular grand jury, which can indict, and trials are public, you can watch them. we can put them on tv. grand jury proceedings are nonpublic so we won't know what's happening day by day, however, people who get subpoenas are allowed to tell us about it. they can walk out of the room, here's what i asked, here's how i answered, we're going to have a decent sense of what happened in the room even though we're not in there. >> that's helpful. let's talk about the january 6th
committee, what they're doing. they have now asked for three congressmen. they need information from these guys. >> the most interesting new revelation is this one, representative andy bigs, he was involved in talks about potential presidential pardons for people relating january 6th. why might someone be interested in a pardon, one might ask. the thing is the committee has decided, it's made clear, they're not going to be subpoenaing fellow members, that would probably include these three. unless they play hardball, they're going to be free to shrug off requests for information. the thing to remember a subpoena is not an accusation, it's a request, an order for testimony. if they saw things, they were just witnesses, they should have nothing to hide. again, it's a political game, a legal game. >> elie, thank you very much. >> thanks, alisyn. invoking naziism as a reason to inevacuate ukraine. that's what russia's foreign minister is going, and of course outrage is erupting.
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battalion at the plant confirmed to cnn that the smoke in the video was coming from the steel plant which was hit by a military strike. ukrainian fighters say they hope to evacuate the 100 adults and 20 children still trapped in that steel plant. there are stunning comments from russia's foreign minister sparking outrage in israel and beyond. in an interview, sergey lavrov repeated russia's claims that it's trying to denazi fie ukraine, dismissing the fact that president zelenskyy is jewish. lavrov claimed adolph hitler had jewish blood. clare sebastian joins us now. leaders in israel are reacting very strongly to these claims, what are they saying. >> reporter: overwhelming outage in israel about this. the context that israel has tried to tread a fine line so far in the conflict. yes, it's condemned the war, it's condemned russia's actions provided aid to ukraine but stopped short of western sanctions on russia. this could threaten the
balancing act they have been trying to keep up. this is what the foreign minister tweeted. foreign minister lavrov's remarks about an unforgivable statement jews did not murder themselves in the holocaust, the lowest level of racism against jews is to accuse jews of anti-semitism, and summoned the ambassador to israel over these comments. something that has put a strain on the relationship something that neither side would have wanted. >> germany has agreed to support a embargo on russian oil. >> if germany is going to support it, that means we have serious momentum toward an embargo on russian oil. this could be part of a package of sanctions the european union is discussing. i want you to listen to what the german finance minister said to cnn earlier today about this. >> now, we are ready. we have prepared ourselves to be
less dependent on russian energy imports. we can reduce the imports, starting with coal, then oil. it will take more time to be independent from russian natural gas imports. so in the end, we will be completely independent from russia. >> this would be a major sea change of course for europe. it would involve some economic pain for germany and other countries in the form of higher prices, potential disruptions but this is something that appears they are willing to move forward with now. just a matter of time until we get there. europe, though, not completely united. the likes of hungary have still said they won't join this. there are reports the eu might carve out exemptions for hungary and slovakia, very reliant on russian energy and longer transition. expect to hear more in the coming days. >> clare sebastian, appreciate
the update. thank you so much. >> alisyn, let's go back to you. >> anderson, thank you very much. lawmakers from both parties are imploring the president to keep in place that pandemic era immigration policy known as title 42 but not our next guest. congresswoman pramila jayapal joins us to explain why. no ink! ugh! i need you to print, i need you. you think you're empty? i'm empty. do you suffer from cartridge conniptions? be conniption-free, thanks to the cartridge-free epson ecotank printer. a ridiculous amount of ink! you're mocking me. not agai the epson ecotank. just fill & chill. (all): all hail, caesar! pssst julius! you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. oh hi caesar. we were just talking about you. yeah, you should probably get out of here. ♪ ringcentral ♪ national university has been focused
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that allows authorities to cite public health to quickly eject migrants trying to enter the country. if the rule is lifted this month, dhs officials believe the number of migrants apprehended at the southern border could climb as high as 18,000 per day. that's triple the amount they're currently seeing. homeland security chief alejandro mayorkas says the u.s. is ready to handle that surge. >> there is no question that if, in fact, we reach that number that is going to be an extraordinary strain on our system. but we are preparing for it, and that is why the plan we have prepared calls for a number of different actions, not just in the domestic arena, but also with our partners to the south. >> joining us now is democratic congresswoman pramila jayapal, congresswoman, great to see you. let's start there with title 42. i know that you are ready to end that, but many of your even
fellow democrats say it is too soon. i'll just give you one example. this comes from congressman tim ryan of ohio. he says quote prematurely ending this policy without a path forward does nothing to keep america safe, support our border patrol agents, protect asylum seekers or bring about the comprehensive fix our immigration system needs. and he's far from alone. so what do you say to the people who say we're just not ready for this? >> well, alisyn, great to see you. the first thing i would say is that title 42 is a public health law. it was used by the trump administration to circumvent actual immigration law, and the trump administration had a strategy of ending all the legal pathways that we had into the country, even though we didn't have sufficient amount of those. our immigration system has been broken for a long time, so we should be clear that the trump administration used title 42 in ways it never should have, but on top of that, title 42 has
done nothing to support orderly processes at the border. in fact, it's done the opposite. it's thrown a lot of chaos in because asylum seekers have no legal way to enter the country, and so this is immigration law should be -- you know, we should respect the fact that we have both in domestic law and international law the right for asylum seekers to seek asylum, and if we want to focus on fixing the immigration system, we should pass the kind of lawful pathways in immigration reforms that we need to do, but republicans are not going to be willing to do that because we have continued to use immigrants as a wedge issue and a political football and it's dpisgusting, they should actually step up and help us to pass those reforms. >> as you know, every administration has been bedevilled by the immigration, some sort of comprehensive immigration plans for decades. i hear what you're saying about the origins, which may not have
been in the purest of motives but practically speaking do you think the border can handle 18,000 border crossers a day? >> i don't think that's what's going to happen, alisyn. those numbers include repeat border crossings, and part of the reason is because all title 42 did is expel people across the border. it didn't actually process them, and so you have multiple people who are trying to cross over and over again. so those numbers are way inflated, number one. and number two, yes, i actually think that the numbers would go down eventually. maybe not immediately becaus up people at the other side of the border, but if we actually implement orderly ways, and we allow people to even apply in their home countries instead of coming to the border, all things the trump administration threw out, then that's how we're going to actually see that situation improve. and let's just be clear, we're all pushing for ukrainian refugees to be allowed entry into the country. we should be able to do that for
haitians and other latin american countries, asylum seekers coming to the border as well. this is a very discriminatory way to go about the process and a disorderly one thanks to the illegal implementation of title 42. >> let's move on to student debt and forgiveness of student debt, and i know that you think that student debt should be forgiven. i think $50,000 worth of it. but let's talk about the unintended consequences of that. certainly i understand the impulse for students that would be wonderful, and life changing but for other americans, there could be unintended consequences, for instance, a report from the committee for responsible federal budget estimated that cancelling all $1.6 trillion in federal student loan debt would increase inflation by .1 to .5 percentage over the next 12 months, and of course that is -- this is no time that anybody wants to hear about inflation being increased. >> well, alisyn, first of all, i
wish we were going to cancel all the student debt, but president biden has been clear that that is not what he's going to do. but i will just say, that if it was 50,000, that same report said the impact would be negligible on inflation for such a small amount, but also on top of that, let's be clear why the republicans are attacking this policy. it's because it's incredibly popular across republicans, independents, and democrats, why, because 99% of the people that have student debt, that 45 million borrowers that have student debt are people who did not go to ivy league schools. they are struggling under the crushing burden of student debt. 40% of them almost have never even gotten a college degree, so this is helping regular folks across the country, and it's not just young people, alisyn, the fastest growing demographic with people with student loans now is seniors, people who are living on fixed incomes but either are still paying off their student
debt or are paying off the debt of their kids or grand kids so this affects a wide group of people, and it will help lower costs in this inflationary time. and really bring relief to millions of people across the country. >> one other argument against it is that it doesn't get to the root problem and that is the skyrocketing costs of tuition. i mean, they've just, you know, gone up exponentially, inexplicably. the average tuition and fees at private universities have jufmpd 144% in the past ten years. out of state has risen 171%, in-state tuition at public universities has grown 211%. and so it just doesn't -- in other words, you can forgive the current debt but then we're just in this vicious cycle of accruing more debt. >> well, you're exactly right. it's a two-part process. we got to forgive the existing debt where the federal government is actually profiting
on the interest that people are paying just to get an education, which is something we tell people to do because it helps our economy, but on top of that, you're right, that's why i have a college for all bill. i've got a plan for that as well to make tuition free for families earning up to 125,000. the federal government has disinvested over the last decade in education. that's a big reason why tuition has increased so much. and we have to get that under control. and we have to recognize that investing in people's education is a boon for our economy, alisyn. it helps us in the long run and the short run and the medium term to build the kind of skills that we need, and support our work force to be able to take care of themselves. >> congresswoman pramila jayapal, thanks for tackling all of this. great to talk to you. >> thank you, alisyn. right now in oklahoma, a judge is holding a hearing to decide whether reparations, a
reparations lawsuit from survivors and descendants of the tulsa race massacre will go forward. we have the details next. [sound of helicopter blades] ugh... they found me. ♪ ♪ nice suits, you guys blend right in. the world needs you back. i'm retired greg, you know this. people have their money just sitting aund doing nothing... that's bad they shouldn't do that. theye getting crushed by inflation. well, i feel for them. they're taking financial advice from memes. [baby spits out milk] i'll get my onesies®. ♪ “baby one more time” by britney spears ♪ good to have you back, old friend. yeah, eyes on the road, benny. welcome to a new chapter in investing. [ding]
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today marks a significant moment for the last survivors of the 1921 tulsa race massacre and their fight for reparations. an oklahoma judge is hearing thas case today and will decide if it can go to trial. the deadly massacre claimed the lives of at least 300 african americans whose entire community of greenwood known as black wall street was burned to the ground. cnn's omar jimenez is there for the proceedings. the last three survivors, each one over the age of 100, are they there at today's hearing? >> yeah, not only are they here, but they're sitting front row in this hearing inside the closed courtroom behind me here. representative sheila jackson lee also in attendance, and remember, to put this in perspective, this is a hearing just to decide if they can actually go to trial. and as their attorney, the attorney for the victims, put it, between these three over 100-year-olds, they have waited 300-plus years just to have a day in court, which again, we'll
see if it actually happens. part of what the lawsuit is alleging here is that area leadership thwarted efforts to rebuild the greenwood area, but also promoted tourism at the site of this massacre and all the while victims, three of them still living, were not only never compensated but also are still feeling the effects of what happened in 1921 today. so part of what they're asking for or seeking are financial reparations for loss of life and property during the massacre, the creation of a victims compensation fund, and financial reparations from any profited made by the government for tourists visiting the greenwood area to learn about the massacre, and of course, that hearing is ongoing just to see if they can proceed forward. >> if so, then what happens? >> well, if it gets to trial, as the attorneys for the victims argued today, then they'll actually be able to prove their case. that's part of what they have emphasized over the course of this. they don't need to prove
everything here. they just have to meet the burden enough to proceed to the next step. now, on the other side of things, the defendants here, which make up a variety of city leadership roles here, have argued that on the other side of things that they are exempt from liability in cases of civil disobedience, riot, insurrection, that too much time has passed since this happened. of course, over 100 years ago at this point, and that the allegations are too vague. there are no concrete injuries stemming from what happened. however, the survivors are arguing the generational wealth stripped from them so suddenly still reverberates today, and to quote one of the attorneys inside, again, in this hearing that's ongoing, the attorney said that injustice plus time does not equal justice. and that is the crux of their argument, of course, to even just get to that next step. >> omar, it will be fascinating to see what happens today. thank you very much for reporting. >> well, a desperate effort is
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