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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  May 23, 2022 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

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museum of the city of new york as part of the new exhibit called "analog city." for those who love the nostalgic phones, you can find a few private phones, including superman booth, in upper west superman booth, in upper west side. -- captions by vitac -- >> you know, my 9-year-old son once asked me, why do we say, hang up the phone. i felt so old in that moment. i'm probably going to be prehistoric. i'm like, you hang up the -- oh, god. forget it. you feel old too now too. i know. i'm laura coates, and this is cnn tonight. for a while, with the pandemic we are kind of all in bill murray's perpetual "groundhog day" movie. we can all agree on one thing, that we are both old enough and young enough to remember when trump and pence were on the same side. after all, they were running on the same ticket for re-election,
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asking for yet another four years in the white house together just 18 months ago. and then they lost. but when only one was prepared to acknowledge that, it seems, well, that there's no love that has now been lost between them. in talking january 6th, pence once said he didn't think he and trump would ever see eye to eye about that day. intimating that it was time to move beyond the 2020 election. today, pence has slolidified tht disconnect, stumping for georgia governor, brian kemp, a candidate who has wholly rejected trump's big lie, at least as a campaign platform-winning strategy. >> i am here to support brian kemp in tomorrow's republican primary. i can honestly say i was for brian kemp before it was cool. >> when you say yes to governor brian kemp tomorrow, you will send a deafening message all across america that the republican party is the party of
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the future. >> and with that, trump's former vice president just may have made the biggest and boldest break yet from the man that is still mad that he certified the election for biden. we already knew that trump was angry with brian kemp. he's been actively working to oust him from office ever since and calling him a turn coat, calling him a coward, and a complete disaster. remember, he even enlisted former senator david perdue to run against him in the gubernatorial primary. now, governor kemp has said today that, well, the bad blood, it doesn't go both ways. >> i had a great relationship with president trump. i've never said anything bad about him. i don't plan on doing that. i'm not mad at him. i think he's just mad at me, and that's something that i can't control. >> the question is how all this is playing with republican voters in georgia and possibly beyond. i mean, despite trump's backing,
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perdue, who has campaigned on the big lie, he struggled to gain traction in the polls. he's been trailing kemp by a wide margin in these final hours. he's making a last-ditch effort to turn out his maga voters while taking, frankly, yet another dig at kemp. >> brian kemp is truly a embarrassment to the republican party because of what's taken place in your great state, georgia. and david will make a massive upgrade as your governor. >> and as for whether georgia republicans are team trump or team punt -- pence -- when it comes to endorsements -- excuse me -- anything could happen of course. there could be a runoff if kemp doesn't win more than 50% of the vote. at least now in the primary, it's kemp's race to lose. but do you know what's not happening? i doubt we'll be seeing another
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trump/pence ticket any time soon. a trump spokesperson said this today. quote, mike pence was set to lose a governor's race in 2016 before he was plucked up and his political career was salvaged. now, desperate to chase his lost relevance, pence is parachuting into races, hoping someone is paying attention. remember, this was once his one-time closest political partner he's talking about. but the question now is, is this pence attempting to maybe be on the top of a ticket in 2024? i want to bring in our power political team for their take. former ohio state senator nina turner, who co-chaired bernie sanders' presidential campaign. and scott jennings, former adviser, senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. i'm glad to have you both here, especially on the eve of election night in america, as we know it so well. let me start with you, scott, on this, because did it surprise you that the former vice
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president has essentially extended that 10-foot pole and said, look, i'm for kemp even before it was cool? >> no, i'm not surprised at mike pence's engagement here because in a lot of ways, what brian kemp is doing in georgia is blazing the trail that mike pence himself wants to go down in 2024. you have two politicians here that at least in some ways owe their national political prominence to donald trump. kemp came to prominence during the trump years and was endorsed by trump. both of them broke with trump after the 2020 election. so, if brian kemp can pull this off in georgia and be authentic and serve and be that kind of republican and win a primary and beat the stacey abrams team in november, that is the kind of message mike pence is going to try to make in 2024. it makes a lot of sense for pence to be there. and if kemp pulls this off, that is the blueprint people like
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mike pence are going to have to follow if they want to challenge trump. >> what i find interesting, nina, is the idea that brian kemp is not focusing on the rehashing of a former election. and it seems to be working for him, at least compared to perdue. and on the other side, his eventual opponent, who is running a non-contested race, stacey abrams, she's been focused on the fact she believes it was not on the up and up when it comes to her gubernatorial run. you have the tension of yeah, you want to leave things in the past. but an eye towards saying, but we remember what happened here. what is going to be more effective here? the distancing for republicans or acknowledging what happened if you're a proponent of stacey abrams from several years ago? >> i think on the abrams side, laura, they can do both, both acknowledge the transgressions that happened the first time around and focus on forward.
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you have to do both because you have to remind voters what happened before and what could possibly happen again. >> i look at georgia, and we've all been looking at georgia for so many reasons, not the least of which is how, although kemp is now campaigning, distancing from the big lie, georgia has codified, as you well know, scott, portions of the thoughts behind the big lie. it was a very controversial election integrity act that was initiated -- speaking of blueprints. and now you've got this same token here of, well, you're hearing about voter turnout being very high at least in the early voting stages, upward of 800,000 and more, in comparison of looking at how this has gone before in prior primaries. what do you make of the idea that the voter turnout has been high in spite of it? at least stacey abrams has had this to say. i want you to react to this in terms of thinking about the why, why there is higher voter turnout still even in spite of legislation.
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here's what she had to say about what why it's a fallacy. >> the moral equivalent thing about the turnout that disproves voter suppression is like saying more people getting in the water means there are no longer any sharks. those two things are just not true. we know voter suppression is alive and well in georgia, and we're going to continue to fight that. >> what do you make, scott, of that in terms of the fact he's pointing out, look, you can't very well say because people are turning out, there were not things going wrong in legislation. what's your retort? >> well, i mean, the numbers, the data, i mean, what's happening on the ground. you have people voting in droves in both parties. to my knowledge, no one is dying of thirst, which is the main promise, people were not going to be able to get water. i'm reading account after account -- >> excuse me. you laugh about that point. but that was one of the controversial -- this is early voting we're talking about. that point -- i get why that's controversial and why there's a little bit of humor you're
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trying to display. but in terms of the notion of why people turned out, do you really think they turned out because of inspite of or because of a legislation? >> i think -- i don't think the legislation is causing people to turn out or not to turn out. the issue with the legislation, we spent months and months and months hearing that people were going to be suppressed. people were going to be kept from the polls. people were going to be turned away. and it was all a huge lie. this law has made it easy for people to vote in both parties. you have republicans and democrats turning out in droves. and by the way, i suspect we're going to have really high turnout in november as well. so, everybody who wanted the law, brian kemp included, have been proven right. and everybody who said it was a disaster have been proven wrong. >> nina, what is your reaction to that? is it all a lie that suppression doesn't exist as the big boogie man? >> no, it's not a lie. and voters are turning out in spite of. just because people are not turning out to vote does not
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mean that the hurdle was not higher, especially when we know the law deals with the absentee voting portion of it, making it harder, making it more stringent to do so. so, people are out voting more in person, and that is absolute i ai good thing. we know we had the scourge of covid -- well, we still have it, but in the heat of the 2020 election, a lot of states were doing what was necessary to expand and protect access to the ballot box knowing people had to vote -- it was life or death to vote absentee and be able to mail in a ballot. so, any elected officials, anybody that runs for office for a living should all want to make sure that we make it easier, that we expand it, that we protect it and stop leaning on the fallacy, somehow, that there's this large scourge of people trying to impersonate people. what do you get? i understand if somebody is trying to rob a bank. we know if they're successful, they get the money. but most people are not going to go into a polling place or turn
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in an absentee ballot application trying to impersonate somebody else. that is the big lie that the republicans continue to push. and state after state, including my great state of ohio, we have less voting opportunities than we had ten years ago because the republicans continue to strip, strip, strip away. and that is not the right thing to do. so, i'm glad to see the voters in georgia pushing forward anyway. >> well, you know, whether it's in spite of or because is kind of the big political question on all fronts. why do people show up? is it because they're in favor or against something? we'll have to follow-up what's happening tomorrow. we shall see. i want to go to a neighbor of the great state of ohio. in nearly a week since the gop senate primary in pennsylvania, that race is still too close to call. in fact, right now dr. mehmet oz leads moderate dave mccormick by just under 1,000 votes, making it all but certain that this race is going to head to a recount. and this comes as, of course,
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interestingly enough, mccormick's campaign has filed a lawsuit to have undated ballots be part of the count. michael smerconish knows all in pennsylvania politics. thank you for joining me tonight. michael, i have to ask you about this because the idea of him trying to say, let's count the undated ballots, what is the significance? why is that such an important point, just given how we've seen the last year or two? >> so, laura, welcome to "groundhog day" in pennsylvania. it's another day, another day of counting ballots. the margin gets slightly more narrow between oz and mccormick. but still, it's mccormick who trails, as you pointed out, by close to 1,000 votes. the answer to your question is that dave mccormick has outperformed dr. oz among the write-in ballots and the absentee ballots. and so his perspective, mccormick, is one of count anything that was not cast on
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election day because chances are, i'll fair better than will doctor oz. oz, you would not be surprised to hear, and with the support of rona mcdaniel from the rnc says, no, if they're lacking a date on the ballot, it shouldn't be cast. it shouldn't be counted. i should point this out. we are talking about ballots that came in by election day. so, this is not an issue of were they received on time. there's a state law requirement that says you've got to write down the date that you actually filled out your ballot. a federal court decision last friday from the third circuit in an unrelated case said even if you lack a date, it ought to be counted. so, mccormick is pointing to that decision and saying that ought to be the standard. >> so, essentially because of course the former president donald trump was really saying, look, declare that you're the victor, oz, before anything of this happens. sort of an eye towards thinking, if votes are coming in, they may
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chop away at the margin you have. is there any way you see this avoiding a recount at this point? and by the way, if this does go to a recount -- which we think it's going to go to a recount -- are there any special precautions or guardrails that are unique to pennsylvania that make this is out of the ordinary? >> well, former president trump, of course, remembers the -- you know, the red mirage and the blue wave. how he looked strong tuesday night at least to the uninitiated who weren't aware of just what potential tendency those mail-in ballots would hold for the democrats. so, you know, trump probably looks at oz, whom he supported, and thinks, this is deja vu, get out ahead of it. my hunch is that dr. oz is probably somewhat confident, nervous, but somewhat confident that he's got enough built in so that even if there's a recount -- and there will be --
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it may get chipped away, but probably not enough to overturn it. so, that's probably where we're headed. but, frankly, you know, it's been such a bizarre election, laura, who the hell knows where it's going end up. >> i guess punxsutawney phil is seeing the shadow of donald trump. we'll see what happens there. i know bill murray movies. "what about bob" is one of the all-time classics. michael, don't go far. i want to talk to you about this new lawsuit against bill cosby later this hour. up next, everyone, the johnny depp/amber heard defamation lawsuit could go to the jury soon. the question is, why is amber heard's legal team apparently changing its mind about calling depp to the stand? i think it's odd in the first instance to call him. but i wonder what insight could kate moss offer in court decades after they had dated. all of this when cnn returns.
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and i just see my little sister with her back -- face -- her back to the staircase. and johnny swings at her, and i don't even wait -- don't even wait -- in my head instantly think of kate moss and the stairs. and i swung at him. >> well, that's actress amber heard admitting to swinging at her then-husband johnny depp. she claims it was to protect her sister and that she felt an impulse to do so. because of that rumor you may have seen, the fist bumping, a rumor she heard about depp shoving former girlfriend kate moss down a staircase. whether or not that happened, we may learn that on wednesday, when kate moss is taking the stand expectedly in depp's $15 million defamation case. i want to bring in an attorney who specializes in celebrity
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defamation cases. ken, i know you saw what i saw just now. i know as lawyers, we're almost taught -- maybe if you're not taught, you're going to realize pretty quickly when the jury returns what you don't want -- to not show a lot of reaction. you saw pumping his fist at the mere mention of kate moss. here it is. what do you think is the idea behind that? look. he's excited. i think it's because someone opened a door. what do you think? >> yeah. it was -- obviously on that side of it, either through a deposition or anecdotally somewhere maybe they were waiting for it. but obviously they saw a door being open. kind of overthe top celebration for what's an ancillary fact. in other words, it's an undisclosed expression. maybe amber heard did believe the rumor about that. but whatever the case may be, the machinery, i think, would
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have to have gone into place at that point to arrange for her to come testify to disavow the jury that there was any real incident between kate moss and johnny depp. so, that show of celebration, there's been a lot of that non-verbal conduct at both counsel tables that sort of -- you sort of strive to not do that. juries are looking at everything. and we talk a lot before trial about not showing emotion one way or another in those situations. >> and of course this can be hard. at times you're pretty invested in it. and obviously there is some level of theatrics. the old saying goes, whoever tells the best story is going to win, you know, in some instances. the truth should prevail at all times, of course. but i have to ask you, when you hear about, say, kate moss testifying -- or we've heard about ellen barkin last week testifying, an actress. a part of me wonders in terms of how and why there has been a
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decision to have this testimony of uncharged prior bad acts in the law or walk us through a door. walk us through why you would have the opportunity to call these sort of either character witnesses to help or to hurt johnny depp's case. >> yeah, i think the focus is these aren't character witnesses in the truest sense because we're talking about significant -- or specific instances of conduct. and evidence codes w, whether they're in a codified code or common law, case law, genegenerally are very weighted against the idea that we're going to say, somebody did something in the past. therefore, they did the same thing this time. specific instances to prove character. i did a fly-by of virginia's evidence rules and their corollary 608 most states or federally, which includes some of that, is actually a little broader. there's a few menu items there
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that show up and provide a little more latitude. i think the kate moss thing is somewhat different than the ellen barkin thing because the ellen barkin thing was a wholesale, let's bring in something from the past and say this happened in the past so it must have happened now. whereas the kate moss thing is really a credibility attack. >> so, what do you make of the decision -- i mean, at one point, amber heard's team, which might surprise people. amber heard's team was thinking about calling not somebody in his past, but johnny depp himself to testify. that's now changed. they're not going to do that any longer. what was the method to the madness of considering calling johnny depp if you're amber heard? >> yeah, i heard your lead-in to it that it's not something -- i think it's very much a lawyer preference thing. i -- when you're putting on your case at chief, you want to control the flow, presentation of evidence. that's your chance to control witnesses under direct and put your story together.
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calling the other side behind your lines puts you in the position of having to control through cross examination, which good lawyers can do. and it's not like it's unheard of. but generally, laura, when that happens it's on a very technical point or something you need to prove for your case in chief. because they already took their shot at them on cross. i don't like to do it particularly in the video depot age when you can put the video depot on to get the technical points in. i think it's always risky. >> well, ken, it also gives an opportunity to talk about second bite at the apple. we've got an actor who's able to clean up whatever he needs to or talk about or expand upon or undermine in some way. this trial continues. ken tur kell, thank you so much. i appreciate your time. and from one sort of celebrity trial to, well, bill cosby. remember bill cosby? well, he may be a free man since pennsylvania's highest court
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overturned his sexual assault conviction, but his legal troubles are not over. in fact, it's far from that. you know, there's actually a new trial that is starting for him this week. we'll tell you why and what cosby could face this time next. '. but for someone to be able to work from here, there has to be someone here makingng sure everything is saf. secure. consistent. so log i in from here. or here. assured that someone is here ready to fix anything. anytime. anywhere. even here. that's because nobody... and i mean nobody... makes hybrid work, work better. you never know what opportunities life will send your way. but if you have moderate to severe
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the suspect involved was arrested multiple times and not held. yes on h. recall chesa boudin now.
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so, listen to this. after being released from prison last year, bill cosby is headed back to a trial for sexual assault accusations. this time, it's not a criminal case. it's a civil case. you have an accuser, named judy huff, who says cosby forced her to perform a sex act on him when she was only 16 years old. she claims it happened at the playboy mansion back me '70s. cosby has denied these allegations. back with me now is michael smir con ish. he's one of the last people to interview cosby on the radio before his trial. also cnn analyst, joey jackson. michael, let me start with you here because i want you to help orient this conversation in the sense that people are wondering still, why was he released from prison? it came down to due process, right? and the idea of a former prosecutor making certain guarantees. what happened? >> right. so, the montgomery county
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prosecutor at the time, bruce castor, who, by the way, good trivia, laura, would later represent donald trump in the impeachment trial in front of the united states senate. he said to bill cosby that he would not be prosecuting him criminally. castor's story was that he didn't think he could meet his burden, and that he, castor, wanted to help andrea come stat in civil litigation and remove the opportunity for cosby to plead the fifth. by the way her team disputes all of this. i need to make that clear. whatever ended up happening is castor didn't prosecute. a subsequent d.a. did. she was successful in her civil suit, and years later the supreme court of pennsylvania said, hey cosby should never have been prosecuted in the first place because the d.a. committed he wouldn't bring the case. >> and of course the other
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prosecutor should have been bound by that notion. the next question for people is, okay, if that's the case for bill cosby as to why he's out of prison now and able to be prosecuted at least civilly at this point in time, how is it that we're able to hear about a case from the 1970s? talk to me about the absence of a statute of limitations period because this is kind of a newer phenomenon in the law, the ability to bring a case like this all the these years later, even though this case has been brewing since at least, i think, 2014. >> yeah, it really is, laura. good evening to you and michael. so, what happens is that we're seeing this movement across the country, where we're giving victims who were younger an opportunity now to pursue claims as an doesn't. in this specific jurisdiction, in california, it used to be 26 or up until, you know, five years thereafter in the event that you would recall the incident as it occurred. there's some repression issue in terms of you trying to forget,
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as any sexual assault victim would, trying to forget it. you have a psychologist to say, hey, you may be past this age but yet you repressed it and now you remember. it was sense amended for it to be 40 or thereafter you could pursue it if it were repressed and now you remember that it occurred. so, they've made statutes across the country that are much more favorable with respect to bringing up claims that may be very stale and old but yet provide you an opportunity to seek legal redress not withstanding the fact that you're an adult now. so, in this particular case very quickly, the victim said, look, i remembered it now although i repressed it. and she was allowed to bring that statute forward. so, here we are from 1974 or '75, depending on which one is the notion that she ultimately decides to pursue. >> you mention that point, of course, because i believe the accuser, after having been provided documents from the cosby team, recalled a different
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year this allegedly took place. smerconish, i've got to ask you because we're talking about still a civil trial here. i'm wondering to what extent the supreme court's decision and pennsylvania of course, would have any bearing or the philosophy? is there connective tissue in terms of the idea of having some kind of civil immunity in this instance for this case if you're bill cosby? >> so, the biggest difference to me or the biggest point i guess to be made is that the standard as the two of you well know was beyond a reasonable doubt in the criminal case. this is going to be be a preponderance of the evidence. i don't see any bearing by the outcome in pennsylvania that it would have on this case. i i think this would be a fresh circumstance and it would be interesting to see the passage of nearly half a century, does that bode well for the alleged victim or cosby in this case? i could argue both ways. i'm fascinated by the fact that
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apparently he won't be present. is that going to be perceived as disrespectful of the jury? or hey, this is such a ridiculous case he's not even going to show up? >> i don't know how you see it, but the client's got to show up. you got to show up. but this age in time we live in. thank you. look at this beautiful law firm here. look at this wonderful thing. could my name please go first? it's alphabetical. thank you so much. we'll call it coates, jackson & smerconish. he's like, don't try it, laura. from this to now the monkeypox scare. ahead a lot of people are understandably concerned about this new virus with a lot of unknowns. we've got the point person for the white house responds to this outbreak next. and it looks nasty.
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for state controller, only yiu will save taxpayers money. wait, who, me? me? no, not you. yvonne yiu. yvonne yiu. not me. good choice. for 25 years, yiu worked as an executive at top financial firms. managed hundreds of audits. as mayor, she saved taxpayers over $55 million. finding waste.
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saving money. because... yiu is for you. yiu is for you. exactly. yvonne yiu. democrat for controller. getting guns off our streets. one democrat's determined to get it done. attorney general rob bonta knows safer streets start with smarter gun control. and bonta says we must ban assault weapons. but eric early, a trump republican who goes too far defending the nra and would loosen laws on ammunition and gun sales. because for him, protecting the second amendment is everything. eric early. too extreme, too conservative for california. tonight a sixth presumptive case of monkeypox in america
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just announced today in washington state. officials say the man recently travelled to a country where other cases have been reported. cases are confirmed in 15 countries. in an interview with the associated press, sex rave parties may have contributed to the spread in europe. but the cdc says moks is not a sexually transmitted disease. so, why is it spreading? and how do we avoid contracting it? let's get some insight from the person leading the white house pandemic office responsible for coordinating the monkeypox response, dr. raj . i'm glad you're here, doctor. i have to tell when you look at the pictures of monkeypox and see the cases being confirmed state side, coming out of the pandemic and in the middle of it, and we're showing this picture again, how contagious and infectious is it? and could people possibly get it here? >> well, thank you, laura, for
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having me on. so, how contagious and infectious is it? it is not as contagious as covid. this is a disease, a virus, that causes a flu-like illness, fever, muscle aches, followed by characteristic rash. think about bumps across your skin that get fluid filled and pus filled. those can be painful. the disease usually lasts two to four weeks. those at risk of getting it are those in direct contact with those skin lesions or in contact with the respiratory droplets of someone who is infected with the virus. it cannot be transmitted as far as we know in past outbreaks as well as so far in this one through airborne transmission like covid can. >> well, do we know how it started? i know the phrase monkeypox is origin for lab monkeys, but it seems to have expanded to rodents and prairie dogs being carriers as well. what is the origin of how this
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would have started now? >> well, you're right. this is a disease, monkeypox, that is present and endemic, as it's called, in parts of west and central africa. i grew up in liberia and have practiced in south africa, and have seen cases of monkeypox there. what's unusual about this outbreak, laura, is that it's spreading in places that don't typically have infections. how it started is unclear. we're getting new clues every day. currently we have clusters of outbreaks in places like spain and portugal and the united kingdom. we have a few cases, as you noted, here in the united states, most of which have been travel related or related to people who have had direct contact with people who have had monkeypox. >> so, how do you treat it? is the incubation period pretty quick? i hear it's a few weeks before you develop symptoms. how do you treat it? is it about quarantining? a solution to vaccine or treat?
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i'm not a doctor. i'm a lawyer. i look at this and say, my god, i do not want this. i want no one to have it. so, how do you cure it? >> it looks really terrifying, and i think one of the things that we're doing in the pandemic office is working across our departments and agencies first of all with empathy first and foremost. people's anxieties and fears around this disease are real. the second thing we're focused on is science. and we have already worked to procure the fruits of science, if i may, the vaccines that are effective against this virus. we have sufficient amounts of them. and we also have procured effective treatments. i'm happy to report, even with the first case in boston at massachusetts general hospital, our colleagues across the government have been able to get vaccines to that hospital. and just yesterday they've started offering the vaccines to health care workers who have been exposed. that's the second part. the first part is to identify those who are infected and to isolate them and make sure they
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get the care they need, laura. the second part is to ensure we've been vaccinated. if we do that again and again and that's our approach as a white house and across the government, we have a better chance of ending this outbreak. >> why is there talk about sex raves as the idea of a potential origin or the idea of it being a sexually transmitted disease. it strikes me as -- all the things you're saying seem to run counter to that. so, why is that even out there and what impact is that having? >> yeah, so, it's really important to clarify, direct contact with the skin lesions is one of the easiest ways of contracting the disease. when people have sex, there is more direct contact. and so it is not a sexually transmitted disease, even though it can be transmitted through sex. but it also can be transmitted just through touch. currently, the outbreak in several countries has been reported amongst certain demographics of the population who have had more intimate
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partner contact. you mentioned the festival, for instance. but that is -- >> what demographic are you talking about? >> -- really important -- well, it has been people who self-identify as men who have sex with men or in the gay community. it's really important because we've seen this with other infectious diseases like hiv. this is early in the outbreak. it's where we've seen current clusters of infections. but it does not mean that this is a disease confined just to that community. again, anyone who has direct contact with the skin lesions and anyone who has had direct contact through sex with the skin lesions, again, someone who's been infected, is at risk, whether you are gay or not gay. >> i'm really glad you addressed this point because there's always a concern about a stigma being associated. the idea of a stigma can have
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dire consequences as well, if that is presumed to be a causal connection here. when you think about the stigma, are you seeing -- >> well, laura, and i started my career as an hiv doctor. i started by career as an hiv doctor. i know exactly what you mean. and that is really, really critical. >> well, you said it here, and we all should know now that the causal connection is not there and that the idea of how to treat and cure -- we're still in the origins of what to do next. thank you so much. i appreciate your time and for addressing what i hope will not be on the horizon for stigma purposes as well. thank you. >> thank you, laura. well, you know, less than three weeks after russia invaded ukraine, the first war crimes trial is already over. ending in a conviction today for this russian soldier. while vladimir putin's actions seem clear, there are many questions about how this case may have been handled. and we're going to examine them next. a cfp® professional can help you build a complete financial plan. visit letsmakeaplan.orgg to find your cfp® professional.
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a life sentence in the first war crimes trial of russia's invasion of ukraine, this man pled guilty to shooting a 16-year-old civilian. that shooting happened on the fourth day of the conflict. here we are nearly three months later, and ukraine's chief prosecutor said the 21-year-old won't be the last russian to stand trial for suspected war crimes. >> reporter: for today 13,000 cases of war crimes. now we have a first sentence. it's not enough. it's only beginning. >> well, you know the unique aspects of this area of law better than my next guest, robert goldman. i want to thank you for joining me today and we talked about this before and what's happening in this trial. you've been pretty outspoken about the idea of how surprising the timing of this trial is,
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that it's happening right now during the conflict, at some point during the conflict. why is that so unique here? >> because ordinarily conditions are not conducive to the gathering of evidence. when you really think about ongoing hostilities and the gathering of evidence, it's just not that easy. i mean, a lot of credit has to go to the ukranian prosecution team, and now we have international prosecution from the international criminal court who are also in ukraine, gathering evidence. but that raises questions also about the wisdom of conducting trials in the midst of an ongoing armed conflict, particularly one which looks like it's going to be
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tracted in time. one aspect i want to point out that i find unusual, as you mentioned, he was indicted, tried and convicted of a single count of a war crime of intentionally murdering, in essence, an individual. but in sentencing him, the court characterized his crime as a crime against peace, humanity, and security. and that was not what he was charged with. in essence, what they're talking about is the crime of aggression, which you cannot really charge a foot soldier with. this is a charge that should be brought against vladamir putin in the high command, you know, who planned and executed this war. >> but is there jurisdiction for that of vladamir putin? is there jurisdiction to do that in this court? oou you've spoken about a military
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tribunal of what is expected of a trial. >> i understand your point. but the problem is what it makes it look like is that this kid has become the vessel in which you pour the totality of crimes, if you will, that have been committed. in my view, it should have been limited to the specific thing, and the language should have been that he was found guilty. there could have been a sentence from as little as 10 up to life imprisonment. now, i note that his defense lawyer today said that they are going to file an appeal. he has 30 days. and he implied that if things don't go well, they'll go to the european court of human rights. >> i know, robert -- we'll quickly get to this. we keep calling this a trial, but he's already pleaded guilty. there wasn't the sort of protracted trial or process even of a lengthy period of time.
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are you concerned about the guilty plea as well? >> well, you know -- look, all i know is probably like you, laura, the information that is coming out by reliable reporting. and i still don't know the conditions under which he pled guilty. you know, did he have his lawyer present at the time? did he know the full implications of what he was pleading to? i have concerns that from what i have seen, what the defense attorney was arguing, there were other plausible arguments that certainly could have mitigated against punishment, certainly life imprisonment, had those been argued. so we don't know the full circumstance, but when you ththink five-day trial, basically, with something as serious as this
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given the guilty plea, and they're very categorical against the crime of coercion. >> we'll talk more about this. as the chief prosecutor said, this is just the beginning. we'll be right b back. scary. have e spraying flonase daily stotos your body from overreacting to allergens s al season long. psst! ! psst! flonase all goo. migraine attacks? you can't always avoid triggers like changes in weather. qulipta™ can help prevent migraine attacks. you can't prevent what's going on outse, th's why qulipta™ helps what's going on inside. qulipta™ is a pill. gets right to wo to prevent migraine attacks and keeps them away over time. qulipta™ blocks cgrp a protein believed to be a cause of migraine attacks. qulipta™ is a preventive treatment for episodic migraine. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and tiredness. learn how abbvie can help you save on qulipta™.
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thanks for watching. i'll be back on wednesday. "don lemon tonight" starts right now. hi, don lemon! >> wait a minute, i'll be back wednesday, too. but that's only because i'm burning the midnight oil. i've got my coffee ready. >> i'm going to watch you, i'm going to support you, i'm going to cheer on the whole election night in america team, but i will be in my pajamas doing that. >> don't we have a legal panel we can put laura on at 1:30 in the morning? >> i'm getting older, laura coates at 1:30 in the morning is not the bi