tv Don Lemon Tonight CNN June 16, 2022 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
thanks for watching. i'll be back tomorrow night. don lemon tonight starts now. hey, don lemon. >> we'll see you tomorrow night. great job. thanks very much. >> bye. this don lemon tonight. devastating testimony from the january 6th hearing on donald trump's relentless campaign to pressure the vice president, mike pence to over turn the 2020 election. it all came from trump's inner circle. saying this, that trump was warned repeatedly that pence had no authority to toss out the results and that a scheme to do so hatched by a conservative law professor john eastman was bogus and unconstitutional. witnesses testifying that trump went so far to badger and belittle pence in a phone call on the morning of january 6th, just hours before the deadly insurrection. listen to this. >> then he said at some point there's a telephone conversation
between the president and the vice president, is that correct? >> yes. >> when i entered the office the second time he was on the telephone with who i later out to found out to be the vice president. >> could you hear the vice president or only hear the president's end? >> only hear the president's end. at some point it started off as a calmer tone and became heated. >> the conversation was pretty heated. >> did you hear any part of the phone call even just the end that the president was speaking from? >> i did, yes. >> all right. what did you hear? >> as i was dropping off the note, my memory, i remember hearing the word, wimp. he called him a wimp. i remember he said, you are a wimp. you'll be a wimp. wimp is the word i remember. >> it's also been reported that the president said to the vice president, that something to the effect that you don't have the courage to make a hard decision. >> something like that. like you're not tough enough to
make the call. >> something to the effect this is the wording is wrong. i made the wrong decision four or five years ago. >> the word that relayed to you that the president called the vice president, apologize for being impolite but do you remember what she said her father called him. >> the p word. >> well, there's much ground to cover on the extensive testimony at today's hearing. i want to turn right away to cnn chief political analyst, gloria borger and phillip mud. gloria, that heated phone call between donald trump and mike pence. we see the photo ps the idea trump was bullying and pressuring his vice president knowing the plan to over turn the election was illegal is stunning. >> it is stunning.
particular since there was no more loyal vice president in the world than pence was. remember how he spent years telling us we all stood on the broad shoulders of donald trump. remember that. i was talking to some people on the committee and they said, look, it seemed a little bit as if, for a while, wpence was looking for way to figure out how maybe he could make trump happy. maybe there was some way to work this out. after he talked to legal sko ll -- s scholars and his own counsel, he knew it was illegal. trump was asking the vice president to do something illegal and decided he would bully him up until the last minute when he tweeted about him before the crowd and then the crowd invaded the capital.
>> we shouldn't be surprised by it. i don't think pence should have been either -- >> probably wasn't. >> the history of donald trump over the years. o li olivia you were in the hearing room. another witness said he was told he called him -- this call was scathing and made it clear how intense the pressure was that pence was facing that morning. >> this pressure went on for days in the lead up. the worst part is it was not only internal, it was external facing as well with all of these multiple layers of actors. never mind the coordination of get getting this message of the stolen election to domestic extremist groups who were being called to arm on january 6th and putting mike pence life at risk all as a result of all of these things going on behind the
scenes. i'm grateful mike pence did hold the line for our democracy and he did stand up and held up his oath to the constitution. sdp you know it's clear here and that is how little concern that the former president had for the former vice president's safety. even after trump was informed about the violence on the capitol knowing his vp is there and in danger, he tweeted about pence lack of courage and the rioters reacting. watch this. >> hooeere is what the presiden wrote in his 2:24 p.m.tweet whi the violence was going on. >> nothing but a traitor and he deserves to burn with the rest of them. >> it escalated after pence. pence didn't do what we wanted. >> pence voted against trump. >> that's when all this started?
>> yeah. that's when we marched on the capitol. we have been shot at with rubber bull lets and tear gas. >> we just heard that mike pence is not going to reject any fraudulent electoral votes. >> boo. >> that's right. you hearing-impaired it here first. mike pence has detrayed the united -- betrayed the united states of america. mike pence has betrayed this president and he's betrayed the people of the united states and we will never, ever forget. >> yeah. >> real simple. pence betrayed us, which apparently everything knew he was going to and the president mentioned it like five times when he talked. >> so, the committee detailed how after trump's 2:24 tweet.
the tweet at 2:24 that the crowds outside and inside the capitol surged. they heard that. do you think that as a call to action, scott? >> well, of course. listen to their own words. the mob got within 40 feet of the vice president. we're darn lucky that something worse didn't happen and it was already a bad enough day. identify i've been thinking about the politics of this as a political commentator and as we get into 2024, donald trump will run, mike pence will run, other people will run. one of the first questions in this campaign in a debate somewhere will be would you have done what mike pence did the day he turned away donald trump's to over turn this election. i want to know what all those candidates are going to say to that question. trump's going to put them on the
spot. a reporter or a moderator will put them on the spot. what we learned about today and what mike pence did is going to be one of the central questions for all these candidates as they ramp up their own campaigns in '24. today was seminal for a number of reasons, not the least of which how folks will deal with it. >> trump will put who on the spot? >> he's going to put anybody who runs against limhim on the spot. he and pence are on a stage somewhere together, he will put pence on blast again an demand answers out of everybody. this idea that mike pence did his duty versus trump version of events, this central debate, to me, is going to be woucone of t defining items of the presidential primary. >> is he going to want to bring that up? i guess so.
it's his congressional lies. >> it's already played out in senate races. that's been the question. it's starting already. it will continue. >> speaking of the vice president, the vice president. the proud boys say the group would have killed mike pence. did the committee connect the dots between trump and an actual threat to the vice president's face. >> that's a difficult connection to make . things going forward into political campaign is people saying what did mike pence do. would i have done that? he doesn't know what's going on. he's sitting there saying if i leave, i appear to be weak. i appear to be setting up my boss. that's the president to say, i left when there's a critical
decision going on in congress that i was a party to. i think mike pence wins this one because of a basic question, don. that is, if you're goin out sayg what would i have done this mike pence's position, the answer is, the tough guy stay and deal with the situation. that's what mike pence did. he didn't walk away. that's the answer. sdp >> olivia, mike pence give credit where credit is due. has the bar become so low where someone who does their constitutional duty is being lauded as doing something that is great. that's what the vice president is supposed to do. that's his job .
when you draw the threat and pull the threat a little bit and draw it across the narrative, this thing still living, still today. i mean, you watch it play out in the threat the mike pence life and the leadership to our country but this threat is still looming across our country because there's several people out there being installed in criminal positions for future elections or running for office and still pushing and running off of the fact they are telling people the election was stolen from them. that's the question for republicans today. trump has no loyalty. he will send a mob to his own vice president for the sake of obtaining power. they all know this. >> i think we should be cognizant of the fact considering what's happening with these election laws around the country, there will be many people who are put in the same position or similar positions as mike pence. look at what we're having in one
state where they won't certify the election. i think we'll be seeing lot of that and people are going to have really the courage to be able to stand up and do what is their constitutional duty as what mike pence did. they are explaning trump's speech. initially he didn't include the attacks on pence. watch this. >> early drafts of the january 6th speech prepared for the president included no mention of the vice president. the president we vised it to include criticism of the vice president and further ad libbed. here is what the president said on january 6th after his call with vice president pence. >> i hope mike is going to do the right thing. i hope so. i hope so. if mike pence does the right thing, we win the election.
all vice president pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify and we become president and you are the happiest people. i said mike that doesn't courage. what takes courage is to do nothing. >> it was a total eclipse of democracy that day . >> he already knew what pence was going to do. he knew mike pence was going to certify the election. purposefully, he was lying to his supporters because he knew what pence was going to do and he was revving them up because
that is exactly what he wanted to do and there's now a picture that assuming will become iconic of somebody giving pence a cell phone and him watching the president give that speech. i don't know if it was in realtime or youtube or whatever, but him watching the president at some point do that. i believe it was a youtube. pence, mr. ploloyal, is watchin the president lie. president soon his life is going to be at stake. he's going to be 40-feet away from the rioters and he's going to be stuck in that basement for four hours and not going to get one phone call, not one phone call from the president of the united states.
>> yeah. he's standing at looks like the loading dock. >> loading dock. in a garage and he's on the phone and looking at the phone as well as what you were saying. i want everybody to stay with me. we have much more ahead of our coverage of the testimony from today's january 6th committee hearing. one person behind the plot was ready and willing to accept violence as an effect of it.
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via scott and phillip as well. phillip, let's start with you. i want to play this for you. this is some of the taped testimony from the trump white house attorney. he says that john eastman was willing to tolerate violence to over turn the election. watch. >> i said you're going to turn around and tell 78 plus million people in this country that you're theory is this is how you're going to invalidate their votes because you think the
election is stolen. i said they're not beginning to tolerate that. i said you're going to cause riots in the street. he said, words to the effect of there's been violence in the history of our country to protect the democracy or protect the republic. >> phil, what he's talk about here is john eastman, the lawyer advising the president but is it clear to you that trump was also willing to accept violence to stay in power? >> heck know. there's two questions here. there's a question of whether i think the president did the right thing. no. there's a question of what i think the department of justice will do, let me give you a couple of perspectives. what's the likelihood you would win a conspiracy case? that's a really difficult case to prove. not only what happened but what people were thinking when they went down the path that happened on january 6th. very difficult to prove. that's going to take a lot of people and millions of dollars
to pursue. if you don't win that case at the back end, you're perceived to be someone who is pursuing donald trump because you have partisan, political interest. i'm not saying that trump did the right thing. i'm not saying the case is the wrong thing. i'm saying if you're at the department of justice, the likelihood you win that case is low. the risk of losing that case is high. i wouldn't pursue it. >> even if people are telling you what they thought and they are telling you they were -- >> sure. the president will say my advisers told me i won. i thought i won. that wasn't a conspiracy. >> none of his advisers told him he won. >> don, you've got to go not to court of public opinion but the court of law. >> no. >> i'm hearing you.
>> every single person who testified -- i'm not saying you're wrong. i'm saying every adviser told him he lost. >> you're wrong. don, you're wrong. >> the only person who told him he won was rudy giuliani and the crazy voting box people. >> don't you think that the defense can find witness who is said the president thought he won. come on, don. the defense will find people who said the president believed he was right. how can this be a conspiracy if the president said he was trying to defend democracy. >> you said the president's advisers told him he won. not one of the advisors told him he won. >> i don't buy it. defense attorneys will find people who say the president thought he won. >> fine. okay. >> let's go, don. come on. sd >> when he had 60 different court cases, there's no way in hell that he thought that he won
and no one with any sense told him that he won. you're not making sense. i'm sorry. you're not making sense right now, phil. >> all right. you lose, go ahead. >> show me the evidence. present to me one person who told him he won, an advisor. which advisor told him he won. >> are you going to tell me, yes or no, that you cannot find a defense witness who says the president -- >> i'm not saying you can't find one but to this point there isn't one. there is not one. i'm asking you to tell me one person, one advisor, legitimate advisor who testified to the committee that donald trump won. >> because they told the committee something different than they told the president. >> come on. you're fishing for -- >> did you read the press reports about the difference between what people said two years ago -- >> it's not about the press reports. i've read the evidence. >> come on. you're wrong. >> okay, fine. if that makes you happy then
you're doing exactly what trump and rudy giuliani did. >> yes, i am. >> scott another wild moment for pence attorney greg jacob talked about a conversation he had with john eastman. eastman makes this distinction between pence's authority to over turn the election and whether draemt vice president could do the same. watch that. >> you weren't jumping up and saying al gore had this authority to do that. you would not want kamala harris to exercise that kind of authority in 2024 when, i hope republicans will win the election and i know you hope that too, john. he said absolutely. al gore did not have basis to do it in 2000. kamala harris shouldn't be able to do it in 2024 but i think you should do it today. >> is there anything that you could take from that other than he knew it was wrong and illegal and he wanted to go along with it any way? are you going to put me on the spot like phil just did?
>> no, i'm going to be short and sweet and tell you he knew it was wrong. b, he knew it was wrong because he asked for pardon and if you want to make this relevant to what's going on in congress today, it's past time for congress to reform the electoral count act and make crystal clear the vice president's role is purely ceremonial because people were trying to fool around with this law and it could be updated. i know there's a bipartisan group working on it in the senate. go ahead, pass the reforms. take this off the table. it's inconceivable to me that someone this looney toons got this close to the president of the united states. >> hey, phil. what scott said. olivia, you know mark short. you know greg jacob. you worked for the vice president and all these people knew this scheme was happening and that it was illegal. why didn't they speak up at the
time? >> you know, i got do say, as someone who was very outspoken prior to this day, yeah, it makes you wonder when all of these people knew and witnesses, why didn't they come forward. for the sake of greg jacob, i did work with him. he's tremendous integrity. he was one of my closest colleagues on the staff and he showed that integrity on a daily basis. i am grateful that someone like him was there in this moment to help mike pence navigate the situation. imagine what would have happened if someone like greg jacob wasn't there. if someone wasn't there to help push back on these people. that's why the service of these people does matter in the moment especially. imagine what would have happened if it was eastman instead enabling the hold process and not holding the line. i think you're hearing their voices now. i think the hearings are critically important because of that. i think americans out there, they need to hear from these people who are first hand witnesses of just how bad it was
and again these are republicans talking. coming forward and saying this is what it was. every one knew that this was illegal. they were pressuring pence to do this thing and grateful that we are very lucky that it could have been worse. it could have been that much worse. >> gloria, i have a question for you be let me ask olivolivia. were they just scared? maybe they were just afraid. >> i did want to get to that because part of the reason i was there today was really in support for someone like greg jacob. i don't know how hard it is to come forward. i know the wrath that comes your way. there's no doubt these people will get death threats now that their name is known. they watched what happened to me. they saw the wrath and the ire that comes with telling the truth and that's what these
people are doing. they are just telling the truth. >> gloria, that's very real. >> oh, you know, look, absolutely. the thing it makes me think about is people who have talked about being in the administration after they've left and said the reason i stayed was because i needed to be guardrail. we were the guardrails in the trump administration. when you really lift the veil like this committee has done, you see that people weren't guardrails. the president said the election was stolen. he led all these outsiders in. they were there and there was nothing they could do about it until the very end when there was no other choice. when democracy was at stake. when there were rioters on steps of the capitol. when you look at how the president was able to surround himself with outsiders and push away most of the insider except
maybe the white house chief of staff, you kind of begin to understand how the guardrails when it came to donald trump really didn't matter. there's one more thing i want to say. that picture i was talking about before was not of the president at the ellipse that pence was looking at on somebody's iphone. i believe it was pence in that secure location looking at someone's iphone watching the president praise the rioters on the video that he did. can you imagine -- there's the picture. can you imagine being the vice president, hiding, in the capitol while the president is out there on a video praising the rioters. i think you could see it on the woman's face standing next to him, presumably a staffer. it's just kind of a remarkable shakespearean moment that the
man he supported suddenly out there praising the people that want to kill him. >> i believe that pence's daughter too. >> is it? i'm sorry. >> it's such a heartbreaking photo to see. >> is that charlotte? >> scott, you see i don't just fight with you. i fight with phil as well. >> don't ever fight with me again. >> you and i were in harmony. >> thank you. i appreciate it. the committee laying out trump's pressure campaign to get pence to over turn the election but is any of it actually criminal? that's next. machine meet jeff. in his life, he's been to the bottom of the ocean. the tops of mountains. the er... twice. and all the places this g runs off to.
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. today's hearing highlighting just how much pressure mike pence was under to over turn the 2020 election. testimony from greg jacob made it clear the master mind behind the plan, john eastman knew his proposal was unconstitutional. >> did john eastman ever admit, as far as you know, in front of the president, that his proposal would violate the electoral counting? >> i believe he did on the 4th. >> did dr. east man ever teld you what he thought the u.s. supreme court would do if it had to decide this issue in.
>> yes. we had an extended discussion an hour and a half to two hours on january 5th and when i pressed him on the point, i said john, if the vice president did what you're asking him to do, we would lose 9-0 in the supreme court, wouldn't we? he initially started, well, maybe you would lose only 7-2. after some further discussion acknowledged you right. we would lose 9-0. >> i want to discuss cnn legal analyst is here and the republican election lawyer who was a witness at monday's hearing. we're glad to have both you have. good evening. it's clear that eastman knew his proposal wouldn't hold water in court. is what he suggested just prop provocative or criminal? >> john eastman thinks it might be criminal and he asked for a pardon. we know that because he took the fifth amendment. they are trying to lay the
ground work that it may be criminal. there's really two aspects to the argument. one eastman's theory was not just wrong but outrageous, ridiculous, absurd and danls. they showed that eastman knew it. he admitted i know this is loser. i know this won't win. i think the argument the committee is trying to make is that would be criminal. >> even after the insurrection, east man continued to pressure the former vice president to over turn the election. listen to this and we'll discuss. >> what was vice president pence reaction when you showed him the e-mail after the attack on the capitol still asked the vice president delay certification and send it back to states. >> he said, that's rubber room
stuff. >> what did you interpret that to mean? >> i understood it to mean that after having seen play out what happens when you convince people that there is a decision to be made in the capitol, legitimately, about who is to be the president and the consequences of that, he was still pushing us to do what he had been asking us to do for the previous two days that that was certifiably crazy. >> he didn't mince words. rubber room stuff, certifiably crazy. what does it tell you that eastman pushed this plan even after a violent mob attacked the capitol? >> well, nothing good. this was a coup in search of a legal theory. they never found one anywhere close to the constitutional bounds. i think john eastman pushing this is an object lawyer for all, an object lesson for all
young lawyers which is you can get too far into a representation that you lose track of truth, justice and the american way. you get in really bad spot. it happened to john eastman on the biggest stage imaginable and the most important case imaginable. >> why haven't any of these guys been sanctioned? you said you get too far into representation. >> john eastman never did this in court, among other things. i think the sanctions, uni universally have been slow to come. i think that it isn't exactly clear who would sanction john eastman for advice he was just giving a client as opposed to filing in court. >> we learn today that days after the insurrection that eastman e-mailed rudy giuliani about receiving a presidential pardon. that ended up not happening and
eastman pleaded the fifth more than 100 times in his deposition. is that a tell to you? that's for you ben. >> yeah it is a tell that he took the fifth so many times. donald trump, infamously said himself that only the mob takes the fifth amendment. it is a tell. i think john eastman, especially after the fact, realized how much trouble he was in for propounding these theories. >> we just in the last conversation we talked about this, many people in trump's circle told him time and time again that he lost the election yet he still pressured pence to over turn it. how does trump blatant knowledge of this play into any potential future prosecution. >> i'm going to solve the case of lemon v phil mud in the last segment. there's the question of did he know and perhaps that debatable.
here is where prosecutors would go next. it's enough for prosecutor to show the person knew or was willfully blind meaning buried his head in the sand meaning i don't want to hear anything i don't want to hear. i just want to hear what i want to hear from rudy and sydney powell and the pillow guy. that's the argument you'll hear from prosecutors. the other argument that you would hear from prosecutors in this scenario is at a certain point when all the lawsuits are done, the recounts have been conducted, when all the states have certified, it doesn't matter if you think you win, you still can't try to disrupt congress from counting the votes on january 6th. i think those are the fall back arguments. not just fall back, legitimate arguments a prosecutor make. >> the whole thing i was talking about with phil and i was sort of tongue and cheek some of it but he didn't have any legitimate advisors telling him he won. the pillow guy and sydney powell and rudy giuliani, they weren't official presidential advisors.
they were just part of his whack-a-doo team. >> you have them on that side of the scale and what a witness called team normal. these are his own lawyers. >> that was my point. >> these are respected, conservative attorneys, former judges and like. >> today was very good. thank you. ben, thanks so much. see you next time. >> thank you. trump's watching the hearings and angry. john kasich weighs in after this. machine r to get it a all worked out. i was over the moon, even though i wawas underground. we'll drdrive you happy at carvana.
governor, john kasich. >> hi, don. >> pence's former attorney testifying today. did his former chief of staff, they laid out this picture of the former v.p. knowing what trump was asking was illegal and sticking to his guns to not oaf turn the election. he's the hero of their story. what do you think? >> i don't think he's a hero. i mean, he couldn't over turn the election any way. he didn't have the authority to do that. don, it's been interesting the narrative that the committee is sort of spinning here that these people who were enablers of donald trump for over four years. remember the tape that came out that was so terrible that was condemned by many republicans. then you had the problem down in charlottesville. you had the kind of condemnation he did towards john mccain. the fact he didn't sell the weapons to the ukrainians soon
enough because he wanted them to investigate joe biden and all of a sudden they say we didn't really like him. it's a little bit dangerous when you label people who are enablers as heroes. it's better that they came to their senses at the end and in terms of mike pence, i don't think he had a whole lot of choice. he didn't have the power to try to over turn the election. good for him. people who went along for all these years and did nothing. when you enable and at the end, you get real problem which is what the committee has found here. >> i understand that. what i'm saying is he could have held things up. he could have tried to send it back. s >> yeah. it just extended the process. you're right, legally, constitutionally, he could not over turn the election. you're right about that. >> look, when people see things that are going on that they don't like and they don't say anything about it when it's unethical or improper without principle and then at the end when they see a real car crash
and go, that's a terrible thing. my comment is, should have been there from the beginning. i don't know why the committee is doing that. maybe they want to focus everything on trump. to me there were a lot of enablers there that got us to this point. >> you're right about that. why isn't pence testifying himself, though? >> i don't know. that i can't answer why he's not testifying. i don't have the answer to that. one thing that is been interesting to me and i've been hearing this more from people is you can't never go back is would it have been better if pelosi allowed mccarthy to appoint some republicans. it would have been disruptive but wouldn't that create an atmosphere where people who say i'm not going to watch that, that's just a kangaroo court, would it have been better if we truly had a bipartisan committee
there even though you would have disrupters because that's what gave watergate the power. it was republicans who fulinall turned against nixon and many of them supported them. in so it's something we have to ask ourselves. and i think also, don, despite all of this -- >> i know it was rhetorical. >> yeah. >> no. this is a 1970s -- no, this is a 1970s dream. and mucking up the process with -- and i think it was truly bipartisan because they offered them -- she offered them an opportunity to put sensible republicans on the committee, and he refused. she offered him the opportunity to do whatever he wanted to accept. she did not want to put crazy people, people who will tell you it's not raining when it's raining. what's the point of it?
so chaney and kinzinger, come on? do you get any more conservative than chaney and kinzinger. a man who fought for our country. >> you and i -- you and i understand it. at the time i thought, well, you know, pelosi didn't want these disrupters on here. the question is, for the future, do we want to just put people on even when at times they will not be very tolerable in terms of the way they discuss things. i'm just concerned it's taken away from this sort of definition of bipartisan. >> if we were in a time -- look, i think if romney was the president, then maybe, okay. but this is a different time when we didn't have -- >> or if i were president, don. >> that we had people that wanted to kill the democracy.
this isn't 1973, though. yeah. john. love ya. see ya. >> i hear you. my only question is if i were president and this was going on around me, would you be there helping me out or would you be against me? >> that's not my job as a journalist. i would just report on it. >> i got you. >> see you. we'll be right back. >> thanks, don. see you. here we go... remember, mom's a kayak denier, so please don't bring it up. bring what up, kayak? excuse me? do the research, todd. to find you great deals on flights, cars and hotels. they're lying to you! who's they? kayak? arr! open your eyes!
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♪ we could walk forever ♪ ( ♪ ) ♪ walking on ♪ ♪ walking on the moon ♪ ♪ some ♪ ♪ may say ♪ ♪ i'm wishing my days away ♪ ♪ no way ♪ ♪ walking on the moon ♪ the state department confirming tonight a third american volunteering on the front lines is missing. a marine veteran, a family friend tells cnn his wife hasn't heard from him since late april. a photo emerged showing two
other missing americans. looks like they are in the back of the truck. their hands seem to be bound. and andy and alexander, they traveled to ukraine to join the fight and have been missing for a week now. the undated photo was posted on telegram today by a russian blogblog er. we will give you updates. he was told it was not legal, but trump kept pushing pence to overturn the elections. the biggest bombshells from january 6th public hearings. that's next.