tv Don Lemon Tonight CNN June 16, 2022 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
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thanks for watching, everyone. i'll be back tomorrow night. "don lemon tonight" starts right now. >> we'll see you tomorrow night. great job tonight. thanks very much. this is "don lemon tonight." devastating testimony from the january 6th hearing on donald trump's relentless campaign to pressure the former vice president mike pence to overturn the 2020 election. and it all came from trump's inner circle. white house staffers and attorneys and aides to pence, as well. saying trump was warned repeatedly that pence has no authority to toss out the results. and a scream to do so hatched by john eastman was bonus and unconstitutional. he badgered pence just hours before the deadly insurrection. listen to this.
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>> then, you said at some point, there was a telephone conversation between the president and the vice president? is that correct? >> yes. >> when i entered the office, the second time, he was on the phone with who i later found out to be the vice president. >> did you hear the vice president, or only hear the president's end? >> only hear the president's end. it was a calmer tone and then became heated. >> the conversation was pretty heated. >> did you hear any part of the phone call? like the end of the president. >> as i was drops off the note, i remember hearing the word wimp. e called him a wimp. i don't remember him saying you will be a wimp. it's been reported that the president said to the vice president, something to the effect of you don't have the courage to make a hard decision. >> i remember it was something
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like that, yeah. being not tough enough to make the call. >> the wording is wrong. i made the wrong decision four or five years ago. >> the word that the president called the vice president, i apologize for being impolite. do you remember what her father called him? >> the "p" word. >> there's ground to cover on today's hearing. i want to turn right away from gl gloria borger, and phil up mid, and also with us, scott jennings. good to see all of you. gloria, you first. that heated phone call between donald trump and mike pence on january 6th. we've seen the photos. the idea that trump was bullying and pressuring his vice
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president, knowing the plan to overturn the president was stunning. >> it is stunning. particularly since there was no more loyal a vice president in the world than pence was. i mean, remember how he spent years that we all stood on the broad shoulders of donald trump. remember that? i was talking to people on the committee. they said, it seemed a little bit as if for a while, pence was looking for a way to figure out how maybe he could make trump happy. maybe there was some way to work this out. after he talked to legal scholars and his own council, there wasn't. it would have been illegal. trump knew he lost the election. knew he was asking his vice president to do something that was illegal and decided he would bully him until the last minute when he tweeted about him before that crowd. and then, the crowd invaded the
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capitol. >> we shouldn't be so surprised by it. i don't think pence probably should have been, either. >> probably wasn't. >> over the years. oliv olivia. you were in the hearing room. trump calling your former boss, pence, a wimp. another witness said he called him pussy. this call was scathing. it makes it clear what the pressure was that pence was facing that morning. >> no doubt. and the pressure went on for days, in the lead jaap. and the worst part of it, it was existential phasing, with the multiple layers of actors. and never mind the coordination of getting the message out of the potential ststolen election for domestic groups that were being called to arms and putting mike pence's life at risk, as a
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result of all of the things going on behind the scenes. i'm grateful that mike pence did hold the line for our democracy. he did stand up and held up his oath to the constitution. >> you know what is clear here, that is how little concern that the former president had for the former vice president's safety. when trump was known about the capitol, he tweeted about pence's lack of courage. and the rioters were reacting. watch this. >> here's what the president wrote in his 2:24 p.m. tweet -- while the violence at the capitol was going on. and here's what the rioters thought. >> nothing but a traitor. he deserves to burn with the rest of them. >> this escalated after what happened to pence. pence didn't do what we wanted.
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pence voted against trump. >> that's when all this started? >> yep. that's when we march on the capitol. we've been shot on with rubber bullets, tear gas. >> not going to reject any votes. that's right. you heard it here first. mike pence has betrayed the united states of america. mike pence has betrayed this president and he has betrayed the people of the united states. and we will never, ever forget. >> it's real simple. pence betrayed us. apparently everybody knew he was going to. and the president mentioned it like five times when he talked.
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>> the committee detailed after trump's 2:24 tweet, that the crowds outside and inside the capitol surge, they heard that. do you think they heard that as a call to action? >> of course. listen to their own words. the mob was whipped up into a frenzy. and the mob got within 40 feet of the vice president. we're lucky that something worse didn't happen. and it was a bad enough day. i've been thinking about the politics of this, as a political commentator. as we get into 2024, donald trump is going to run. mike pence is going to run. other people are going to run. one of the first questions in the debate is, would you be what mike pence did, the day he turned away donald trump's end
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treaties to overturn this election. i want to know what the candidates are going to say. trump will put them on the spot. a reporter or moderator will put them on the spot. what we learned about today and what mike pence did is going to be one of the central questions for all of the candidates. today was seminal for a number of reasons. >> trump is going to put who on the spot? >> anybody that runs against him on the spot. if he and pence are on a stage together, he is going to put pence on blast and demand answers out of everybody. this debate, this idea that mike pence did his duty, versus trump's version of events, this central debate is going to be one of the defining items of the primary in 2024. >> is this going to want to bring that up? i guess so. his election lies.
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>> it's playing out in congressional races and senate races, primaries. that's the question. do you believe the election was rigged and do you believe mike pence was wrong? it's starting already. >> speaking of the vice president and that pence was 40 feet of the mob. they got within 40 feet of the vice president. we learned that an fbi informant in with the proud boys that with group would have killed the vice president. >> that's a difficult connection two make. look, if you're sitting in the seat of mike pence, you don't know what's going on? . one of the things going forward into a political campaign is people saying, what did mike pence do? he doesn't know what's going on. he says, if i leave, i appear to be weak.
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i appear to be setting up my boss, the president, to say, i left when there was a critical decision going on in the congress that i was a party to. i think mike pence wins this one, because of a basic question. if you go out, saying what would i have done in mike pence's position, the answer is, the tough guys stay and deal with the situation. that's what mike pence did. he didn't walk away. that's the answer. >> mike pence did the right thing. is the bar so law, that somebody doing his duty is going to be great. >> i've been critical of my former boss when he was frying to be half-in and half-out of maga world. in the aftermath, he was going
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along with the election integrity narrative, that we can see stems from this ongoing discussion internally at the white house at the time, how to do this illegal act. when you draw the threat and pull the threat a little bit and draw across the narrative, this thing is still living today. you watch it play out in the threat to mike pence's life, but this threat is looming across the country. there's several people being installed in critical positions for future elections and running for office. they're pushing and running off of the fact that they are telling people that the election, 2020, was stolen from them. that's the question for republicans today. trump has no loyalty. he will send a mob to his own vice president for the sake of obtaining power. they all know this. >> we should be cognizant of the fact that considering what's happening with the election laws around the country, there's many
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people that are put in the same position or similar positions as mike pence. we're having in one state where they won't even certify the election. we're seeing a lot of them. and people are going to have the courage to be able to stand up and do what is their constitutional duty, what mike pence did. i want to play more and get your response. this is the committee explaining trump's ellclipse speech. he didn't include the attacks on pence. >> our investigation found early drafts of the speech, included no mention of the vice president. the president revised it to include criticism of the vice president and further ad-libbed. here's what the president said on january 6th after his call with vice president pence. >> i hope mike is going to do the right thing. i hope so. i hope so.
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if mike pence does the right thing, we win the election. all mike pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify. and we become president and you are the happiest, people. and i actually, i just spoke to mike. i said, mike, that doesn't take courage. what takes courage is to do something. >> i said eclipse. i should have said ellipse. it was an eclipse of democracy. he was attacking pence beyond what we just heard. he was not going to be told no. >> couldn't stop. couldn't stop. and he already knew what pence was going to do. he was standing there saying to supporters, i hope mike pence does the right thing. he knew mike pence was going to certify the election. so, purposely, he was lying to
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supporters because he knew what pence was going to do. and he was revving them up. that is exactly what he wanted to do. and there's now a picture that i'm assuming will become iconic of somebody giving pence a cell phone. and he was watching the president give that speech. i don't know if it was in real-time or youtube or whatever. him watching the president at some point do that. i believe it was a youtube. pence, mr. loyal, is watching the president lie, knowing what he told the president, knowing that the president called him a wimp and everything else. and pretty soon, his life is going to be, you know, at stake here. he's going to be 40 feet away from the rioters. he's going to be stuck in that basement for four hours. he's not going to get one phone
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call, not one phone call from the president of the united states. >> he's standing at what looks like the loading dock. >> yeah. >> right. or garage. and he's on the phone. and then, he's also looking at the phone, as well, as to what you were saying, gloria. i want everybody to stay with me. much more ahead of our coverage of the testimony from today's january 6th committee hearing. one person behind the plot was ready and willing to accept vie lanesens as an effect of it. ♪ what happens when performance... meets power? you try crazy things... ...because you're crazy... ...and you like it. you get bigger... ...badder... ...faster.
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we're back. we're talking about the testimony at the january 6th hearing. it could not have been more direct. trump knew the attempt to overturn the 2020 election was illegal. but he attempted to do it anyway. phillip, let's start with you. i want to play this for you. this is some of the taped testimony from the attorney, and said that eastman was willing to incite violence. >> turn around until 78 million people-plus, in this country. that they are going to invalidate their votes because you think that the election is stolen? they're not going to tolerate that. you're going to cause riots in the streets. and he said, to the effect of,
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there's been violence in the history of our country to protect the democracy or the republic. >> what is talking about, john eastman, the lawyer advising the president. is it clear to you that trump was willing to accept violence to stay in power? heck no. there's two questions. whether the president did the right thing? heck, no. there's a question of what the department of justice will do. what's the likelihood you can win a conspiracy case? that's a really difficult case to prove. not only what happened, but what people were thinking when they went down the path that happened on january 6th. very difficult toll prove. that will take a lot of people and millions of dollars to pursue. let's guess you don't win that case. if you don't win that case on the back end, if you're the department of justice, merrick
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garland, the attorney general, you're perceived to be someone who is pursuing donald trump because you have partisan political interests. i'm not saying that trump did the right thing. i'm not saying the case is the wrong thing. i'm saying at the department of justice, the likelihood you win that case is low. the risk of losing that case is high. i wouldn't pursue it. >> even if people were telling you they were inspired to act. >> the president will say i thought i won. >> none of his told him he won. >> don, you've got to go not to the court of public opinion but to the court of law. >> hold on. you're not hearing what i'm saying. every person who testified, his advisers told him -- i'm not saying you're wrong. i'm saying every adviser -- every adviser told him he lost.
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d don, you're wrong. >> the only one that told them he was wrong, was the voting box people. >> don't you think the president can tell him people that said he won? the president believed he was right. how can this be a conspiracy if the president said he was trying to defend democracy. >> you said that the president's advisers told him he won. not one of them told him he won. >> i don't buy it. defense attorneys are going to find people who say the president thought he won. >> okay. >> let's go, don. come on. there's to way he thought he won. you're not making sense right now, phil. >> all right. you lose. go ahead.
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>> show me the evidence. present to me one person that told him he won. which adviser told him he won? >> i'm just saying -- are you going to tell me, don? are you going to tell me, yes or no, that you cannot find a defense witness that says the president -- >> i said to this point, there is none. this is not one. one adviser, legitimate adviser, who testified to the committee. >> because they told the committee something different they told the president. >> come on, man. you're fishing. >> did you read the press reports about the difference between what people said two years ago and today. >> the evidence is there. >> you're wrong. >> okay, fine. if that makes you happy, you're doing exactly what trump and giuliani did. >> yes. yes, i am. >> scott, another mild moment for pence. attorney general greg jacob talked about a conversation he
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had with john eastman. eastman makes the distinction between pence's authority to overturn the election and whether vice presidents could do the same. watch that. >> you weren't jumping up and saying al gore had the authority to do that. you would not want kamala harris to be able to exercise that authority in 2024, when i hope republicans will win the election. and i know you hope that, too, john. he said, al gore did not have a basis to do it in 2000. kamala harris shouldn't be able to do it in 2024. but i think you should do it today. >> is there anything you can take from that, other than he knew it was wrong and illegal and wanted them to go along with it if it? are you going to put me on the spot? >> he knew i was wrong. he knew it was wrong because he asked for a pardon. if you want to make this relevant to what is going on in congress today, it is pastime
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for congress to reform the electoral count act and make clear that the vice president's role in all this is ceremonial. people were trying to fool around with this law. it could be updated. there's a group working on it in the senate. pass the reforms and take this off the table. you know, it's inconceivable in a someone this looney toons got this close to the president of the united states. >> phil, what scott said. olivia, you know marc short. you know greg jacob. you work for the vice president. all these people knew the scheme was happening and that it was illegal. why didn't they speak up at the time? >> you know, i got to say, as someone who was very outspoken prior to this day, yeah, it
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makes you wonder. all of the people knew and why didn't they come forward? for the sake of greg jacob. he has tremendous integrity. he was one of my closest colleagues on the staff. he showed that integrity on a daily basis. i'm grateful that someone was there at this moment to help mike pence navigate the situation. imagine what would have happened if someone like greg jacob wasn't there. if someone wasn't there to push back on the people. that's why the service of these people does matter in the moment. imagine what would have happened if it was eastman, instead, enabling the whole process and not holding the line. i think you're hearing their voices now. i think the hearings are critically important because of that. i think americans out there, they need to hear from the people who were firsthand witnesses of just how bad it was. and these are republicans talking, coming forward and saying, this is what it was. everyone knew this was illegal.
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they were pressuring pence to do this thing. i'm grateful -- we're very lucky that it could have been worse. it could have been that much worse. >> gloria, i have a question for you. were they just scared in maybe they were just afraid. >> i did want to get to that. part of the reason i was there was in support for someone like greg jacob. i know how hard it is to come forward. and i know the wrath that comes your way. there's no doubt that the people will get death threats now that they're names are known. >> i'm glad you're saying this. >> they watch what happened to me. they saw the wrath and the ire that comes with telling the truth. that's what people are doing. they're just telling the truth. >> that's very real. you know, absolutely .
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people who left, and say they stayed because they needed to be the guardrail. if you lift the veil as this committee has done, people weren't guardrails. the president said the election was stolen. he let all of the outsiders in. they were there and there was nothing they could do about it until it was too late. when you look at how the president was able to surround himself with outsiders and push away most of the insiders, except for the white house chief of staff, you begin to understand how the guardrails when it came to donald trump,
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really didn't matter. that picture i was talking about before, was not of the president at the ellipse that president was looking at. i believe it was pence in that secure location, looking at someone's iphone, watching the president praise the rioters on the video he did. >> got it. >> can you imagine, there is the picture. that's right. can you imagine being the vice president, hiding in the capitol, while the president is out there on a video praising the rioters. and i think you can see it on the woman's face standing next to him, presumably a staffer. it's just kind of a remarkable shakespearean moment that the man he supported entirely was suddenly out there praising the people who said they wanted to kill him. >> yeah. yep. >> i believe that's pence's daughter, too.
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>> is it? >> it's a heartbreaking photo to see. >> i think that's charlotte. >> thank you all. scott, you see, i don't just fight with you. i fight with phil, as well. >> don't ever fight with me again. >> you andry in harmony. >> i appreciate it. see you soon. the committee laying out trump's pressure campaign to get pence to overturn the election. but is any of it criminal? that's next.
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today's hearing, highlights just how much pressure mike pence was under by the former president to overturn the 2020 election. testimony from former pence counsel greg jacob, makes it clear that the mastermind, john eastman, knew his proposal was unconstitutional. >> did john eastman, ever admit, as far as you know, in front of the president, that his proposal violates the electoral college? >> i believe he did on the 4th. >> did dr. eastman ever tell you what he thought the supreme court would do if he had to decide this issue? >> yes. we had an extended discussion, an hour and a half, two hours,
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on the 5th. when i pressed him on the point, i said if the vice president did what you're asking him to do, we would lose 9-0, in the supreme court, wouldn't we? and he initially started, i think you would lose 7-2. after further discussion, acknowledged, yeah, you're right. we would lose 9-0. >> i want to discuss. we're glad to have both of you. it's clear that eastman knew it proposal wouldn't hold water in court. >> john eastman thinks it might be criminal. we know that because he asked for a pardon. he took the fifth amendment today. the committee is trying to lay the groundwork they can hand over to d.o.j., that they can pick up on that it will be criminal. there's two arguments. one is eastman's theory is not just wrong, outrageous,
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ridiculous, absurd and dangerous. but lawyers are allowed to have ridiculous arguments sometimes. i have seen a couple of them. maybe ben has, as well. they showed that eastman knew it. he admitted, i know this is a loser. i know it won't win. if you advance that argument in fur furtherence, that would be criminal. >> after the e insurrection, eastman pressured the former vice president to overturn the election. >> what was vice president pence's reaction when you showed him the e-mail, where dr. eastman, after the attack on the capitol, still asked that the vice president delay certification and send it back to the states? >> he said, that's rubber room stuff. >> what did you interpret that to mean? >> i understood it to mean that after having seen play out what
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happens when you convince people that there's a decision to be made about who is to be president, he was pushing us to do what he had been asking us to do for the previous two days, that that was certifiably crazy. >> what does it tell you that he pushed this plan after a violent mob attacked the capitol? >> nothing good. this was a coup in search of a legal theory that never found one close to the constitutional bounds. i think john eastman pushing this is as an object lesson for all young lawyers. you can get too far into a representation that you start of lose track of truth, justice and the american way.
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and you get in a bad spot. and it happened to john eastman on the biggest stage imaginable. >> why haven't any of the guys been sanctioned? you get too far into representation? john eastman never did this in court. and the sanctions have been slow to come. it hasn't been clear who would sanction john eastman for advice he was giving a client, as opposed to filing in court. >> we learned that eastman e-mailed rudy giuliani about receiving a presidential pardon. that ended up not happening. and eastman pleaded the fifth more than 100 times in his deposition. is that a tell to you?
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that's for you, ben. >> it is a tell. donald trump said himself, that only the mob takes the fifth amendment. it is a tell. i think john eastman, after the fact, realized exactly how much trouble he was in, for propounding these theories. >> in the last conversation we talked about this, many people in trump's circle told him he lost the election and pressured pence to overturn it. how does trump's blatant knowledge figure into any prosecution? >> i'm going to solve lemon v. mudd. it's a lot for prosecutors to show the person knew or was willfully blind. or buried his head in the hand.
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covered his ears and closed his mind. i want to hear what i do want to hear from rudy and sidney powell and the pillow guy. that's the argument you will hear from prosecutors. the other argument, at a certain point, when all of the recounts have been conducted, all of the states have certified, it doesn't matter if you think you win. you can't try to disrupt congress from counting the votes on january 6th. i think those are the fallback arguments. not just fallback, but legitimate arguments that a prosecutor would make. >> the whole thing i was talking about with phil, i was doing it tongue in cheek. he didn't have advisers telling him he won. the pillow guy, sydney powell and rudy giuliani, they weren't official presidential advisers. they were part of his wac-a-doo team. >> you have that team and team
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normal. these aren't liberal anti-trump lawyers that are telling him the truth. these are his own lawyers. >> that was my point. >> respected, conservative attorneys, former judges and the like. >> yeah. and think of -- i thought today was good. thank you, gentlemen. ben, thanks so much. see you next time. trump's watching the hearings and he is angry. john kasich weighs in after this. making friends again, billy? i like to keep my enemies close. guys, excuse me. i didn't quite get that. i'm hard of hearing. ♪ oh hey, don't forget about the tense music too. would you say tense? i'd say suspenseful. aren't they the same thing? can we move on guys, please? alexa, turn on the subtitles. and dim the lights. ok, dimming the lights.
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picture of the former v.p. knowing what trump was asking was illegal and sticking to his guns to not overturn the election. here's the hero of their story. what do you think? >> i don't think he's a hero. he couldn't overturn the election anyway. didn't have the authority to do that. but, don, it's been interesting the narrative that the committee is spinning here. that the people who were enablers of donald trump for over hour years. remember the tape that came out that was condemned by republicans. you had the problems in charlottesville. he had the condemnation against john mccain. the fact he didn't sell the weapons to ukrainians soon enough because he wanted to investigate joe biden. and then, in the 11th hour, we didn't really like him. it's a little dangerous when you label people that are enablers
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as heroes. it's better they came to their senses at the end. in terms of mike pence, i don't think he had a lot of choice. what was he going to do? he didn't have the power to try to overturn the election. good for him. but you know -- he went along for all of the years, don. when you enable, at the end, you have a problem. that's what the committee has found here. >> i am saying he could have held things up. he could have tried to send it back. >> yeah. >> it would have extended the process. you're right, legally, constitutionally, he could not overturn the election. you're right about that. >> when people see things that are going on they don't like and they don't say anything about it when it's unethical or improper without principle, and at the end, when they see a real car crash, they go, well, that's a terrible thing. he should have been there from the beginning. i don't know why the committee
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is doing that. maybe they want to focus everything on trump. there were a lot of enablers there. >> you're right about that. why isn't pence testifying himself? >> i don't know. that i can't answer why he is not testifying. i don't have the answer to that. one thing that's interesting to me, and i've been hearing this from people, is you can never go back and be a monday morning quarterback. but what you wonder is wouldn't it have been better if pelosi had allowed mccarthy to appoint some republicans? it would have been disruptive. but wouldn't that have created an atmosphere that people that say i'm not going to watch that, that's just a kangaroo court, wouldn't it have been better if we had a bipartisan committee there, even though you would have disrupters because that's what gave watergate the power. it was republicans who finally turned against nixon. the public turned against nixon.
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in the beginning, many of them supported him. but in the end, they said the evidence was too much. it's something we have to ask yourselves. i think also, don, despite -- >> i didn't know it was rhetorical. >> you don't think? >> this is in 1973. and mucking up the process -- >> i think it was truly bipartisan. them -- she offered them an opportunity to put sensible republicans on the committee, and he refused. she offered him the opportunity to do whatever he wanted to accept. she did not want to put crazy people, people who will tell you it's not raining when it's raining. what's the point of it? liz chenney? do you get anymore conservative
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than liz chenney and adam -- who voted for the president 90% of the time. they're not republicans all the time because they're not crazy? >> you and i understand it. the question is for the future, do we really want to put people on when at times they're not going to be very tolerable in terms of the way they discuss things. i'm concerned it is taking away from the definition of my parts. that is the point that i raise. >> i think if romney was president and maybe -- if this was a different time when we didn't have the capitol of people trying to kill the democracy, i would say yes. but we don't live in those times. this is not 1973. i love you, john. >>i hear you. >> the question is, if i were
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bound. they traveled to ukraine to join the fight and have been missing for a week now. the undate photo was posted today. we'll bring you updates this weekend. he was told it was not legal. but trump kept pushing pence to overturn the election anyway. the bombshells from the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol public hearings is next. go with simparica trio it's triple protection made simple! simparica trio is the first and only monthly chewable that covers heartworm disease, ticks and fleas, round and hookworms.
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meet three sisters. the drummer, the dribbler, and the day-dreamer... the dribbler's getting hands-on practice with her chase first banking debit card... the drummer's making savings simple with a tap... ...round of applause. and this dreamer, well, she's still learning how to budget, so mom keeps her alerts on full volume. hey! what? it's true! and that's all thanks to chase first banking. freedom for kids. control for parents. one bank with tools for both, all with no monthly service fee. chase. make more of what's yours.
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