more uneven. latest data shows that other smoking cessation devices, nicotine replacement gums were more effective. a new study said 60% of people who had used e-cigarettes to help stop smoking did relapse. i don't think the data is really strong on that point either. but, again, with juul, this was a safety issue. that's why the fda acted so quickly. >> sanjay, thank you very much. "new day" continues right now. good morning to our viewers in the united states and all around the world. it is friday, june 24th. i'm john berman with brianna keilar. just say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and republican congressmen. a sentence that rang across the halls of the capitol and this morning, might very well be ringing into the courtroom. a day of sworn testimony about how former president trump relentlessly pressured the justice department to more or

less overthrow the election, pressured them almost every day, asking officials to say things that were not true, that they told him were not true, and trying to get them to do things without precedence and that were arguably not legal. watch. >> let's take a look at another one of your notes. you also noted that mr. rosen said to mr. trump, quote, doj can't and won't snap its fingers and change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond to that, sir? >> he responded very quickly and said, essentially, that's not what i'm asking you to do. what i'm asking you to do is just say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. >> i made the point that jeff clark is not even competent to serve as the attorney general. he's never been a criminal attorney. he's never conducted a criminal investigation in his life. he's never been in front of a trial jury. and he kind of retorted by saying, well, i've done a lot of very complicated appeals and

civil litigation, environmental litigation and things like that, and i said, that's right, you're an environmental lawyer, how about you go back to your office and we'll call you when there is an oil spill? >> when he finished discussing what he planned on doing, i said, good [ bleep ] -- sorry, congratulations, you just admitted first step or action you would take as a attorney general would be committing a felony in violating rule 68. >> he said suppose i do this, suppose i replace him, jeff rosen, with him, jeff clark, what would you do? i said, mr. president, i would resign immediately. i'm not working one minute for this guy, who i had just declared was completely incompetent. the president essentially said, ken, i'm sitting here with the acting attorney general, he just told me it is your job to seize machines and you're not doing your job. and mr. cuccinelli responded. >> mr. rosen, did you ever tell the president that the department of homeland security could seize voting machines?

>> no, certainly not. >> i sort of shutter to think what the situation would have been if the position of the department was we're not even looking at this until after biden's in office. i'm not sure we would have had a transition at all. >> the only reason i know to ask for a pardon is because you think you have committed a crime. >> so much to talk about here, with my colleagues. i want to start with what bill barr said, if we could. bill barr basically saying, we had to entertain some of these looney tunes ideas. we had to investigate these conspiracy theories the president wanted us to investigate or he wasn't going to go away, there may not have been a transition. david gregory what do you think of that? >> the power of yesterday was to hear trump loyalists after all working in the justice department reminding the country and the world that they have principles, that is about the rule of law, and saying no, we're not going to do this.

we are not going to engage in a crime, violation of the constitution because the president is posing questions about how to pull off this level of corruption. i think that is what is striking. so you have the fact that the president was trying to weaponize his justice department and hearing that in such detail, but also hearing much to the relief, i think, of everyone listening that you had people who are not recognizable saying, no, absolutely we will not do this. what you're asking us to do, because it is a violation of the law. and, you know, while these accounts have been around for a while, they have been written about, they have been reported on, god help us if there is not a price to pay for this level of corruption. >> look, brianna, to your point, the fact it got so far as to have the department of justice called the department of defense to call the italians to find out if satellites were investigating our elections, what world are we living in, right? but you also have to think back

to, you know, the time during which this was all unfolding. i remember being on the phone with mostly republican senators who, you know, especially earlier in the process, in november, and december, were saying, well, we just got to let this play out. we have to indulge his worst impulses at least for a minute. but i think what we really saw on display yesterday was the degree to which we actually were potentially at a crisis point, really over the christmas holiday, right, when all of us were celebrating with our families, you know, going to new year's celebrations, these guys were in the justice department, essentially trying to make sure that the president didn't subvert the entire enterprise. and, look, there are critics, democrats saying, look, this was too late, these guys should have figured it out a lot earlier, there are other instances in the trump administration, sara, you've covered this extensively, they came under pressure to do what the administration wanted it to do, but they did the right

thing when it mattered the most. >> and it took all of them. that was what was so powerful about having them altogether, they all had to show up as a united front to say if you do this, if you decide to replace jeffrey rose within jeffrey clark, we're here as representation of the justice department and we're all gone. it took all of them to put up this united front in order to stop this from happening. if one of them had caved, who knows what the outcome would have been? >> this use or attempted use of the department of justice, how does this compare to what you saw during the nixon administration? >> i worked in the department of justice initially before i went to the white house, i can tell you one thing, the people who day in and day out have been in that department for years, many of them, and they continue on through presidency after presidency, they're very strong, they're very loyal of the department, there is a spirit, even before the ethics rules

were written, they had an ethics in that department that is unlike anything else in the government. didn't surprise me at all they stood up, that these -- some of these men had come out of 14-year careers in the department. so i think they did their colleagues proud. and we never had a day like yesterday where the top of the department of justice leveled the presidency. >> what did you think about how close we came to constitutional crisis and what we learned yesterday, perhaps we came closer than we realized? >> i don't think trump could have ever accomplished what he wanted to accomplish. i don't think jeffrey clark could have made it. that would have beheaded the department. that's what would have happened. >> the image of that is something that dissuaded president trump and the meeting he had with all these -- it wasn't that it was illegal or that it was untoward, it was

that it was going to look really bad. >> there is another aspect of this too, we can go back to the first impeachment, about russia, russian interference in the election, one of the things we learned in the process of all of that is how open for business trump was to manipulate an election, to compromise an opponent, to have a foreign power get involved. he was open to all kinds of ideas. and it is only with this kind of united front as john suggests by professionals who have principles and adhere to standards of conduct and the rule of law that he says, okay, apparently that would be too tough. he looks for the enablers, he looks for those who will accommodate his theories and i want to make a -- >> leave it up to me and house republicans. >> there is a lot of members of congress. and the barriers of entry are not tremendously high to get in there and do this kind of work,

unfortunately. let's also remember, to those who want to criticize the committee, to those who want to criticize the media, who say that there was -- the election was stolen, all these people have to be wrong. all these judges who threw out, you know, all this purported evidence of fraud, they have to be in on the conspiracy and so do these trump loyalists who said, no, we're not doing that, because there is no evidence of what you're suggesting. it is simply without merit. listen to them. put all the other politics aside. listen to them. i think that's the power in what we heard yesterday. >> that's what liz cheney underscored, the end of the hearing. she said to trump voters, right, i would make a distinction between trump voters and hard core trump supporters, trump voters deceived by him, misled and, if you look at the way, you know, let's step aside from the legal ramifications here, one audience is the department of justice, but another -- the audience for liz cheney is the

american people, specifically republicans, and we learned in the 2020 election there were many of them who pulled the lever for the republican congressman or senator and did not pull the lever for donald trump, right? donald trump lost the election in no small part because of those people. so this is a political case that is being made as well, and i know, berman, earlier mentioned that we have some data potentially to back this up, but we can see it in the elections we had so far. brad raffensperger got re-elected, brian kemp, governor of georgia, trump ran against him, got re-elected. nancy mason of south carolina, her district is more moderate, but she pivoted a little bit, anti-trump, initially, but said, okay, fine, don't have a problem with him, just vote for me, because i'm here for the district, right? there is a playbook for these candidates to run without necessarily taking trump on directly, but still actually moving forward from him. and, you know, when you look at these hearings in the entirety, as we head to 2024 elections,

we're likely to see trump potentially as the republican nominee, that's an incredibly important piece of this. >> yeah, because there are no indications, berman, this is going to stop trump from trying to run. >> yeah. and, look, that is one of the key questions that has been here in these hearings all along, and kasey set it up perfectly, are people watching, will it make a difference, can it change minds, and now there are certain numbers that raise the possibility maybe in certain ways. cnn senior data reporter harry enten joins me now. frank luntz was with us yesterday and chris wallace said the same thing, they were looking at this new poll in new hampshire, which suggests it may not be that voters are turning on donald trump, just moving on from donald trump. >> yeah, that's exactly right. let's start there in new hampshire, right. this to me was a bombshell poll. it is within the margin of error, ron desantis at 39%, donald trump at 37%, compare that to where we were in october of 2021, when it was trump at 43 and desantis was only down at

18%. here is to me is the key nugget. yes, it is just one poll, but it is the first national early state gop primary poll without trump leading since february of 2016. it has been 6 1/2 years when this particular gentleman was not leading the pack, this, to me, is one of these moments that we may look back upon and say, wow, the gop voters may have decided, you know what, maybe we don't want to stand by donald trump completely. >> what are you seeing in terms of the favorability numbers? >> yeah, so, you know, if we go nationally, this, to me, is another nugget, of voters who may be saying, maybe i still like donald trump, but i don't love donald trump. i'm not stick with him through thick and thin. this is the strongly favorable view of donald trump, the love. back in october of 2020, nationally, look at that, 68% of gop voters said we have a strongly favorable view of donald trump. look where we are now, in a new fox news poll, down to 53%. look, there is still a lot of

gop voters who love donald trump, there is clear degradation in his numbers whereby he's not as beloved as he once was. >> you can see it when you compare trump to other figures as well. >> that's exactly right. so, you know this is, again, we'll go back to ron desantis, this is something we'll be talking about for a while. favorable ratings among republicans nationally, if you look among all republicans, you see trump with the overall favorable, 79% to 57% for desantis. but look at those who have an opinion of both of them. there are many voters, gop voters who don't have an opinion of desantis. of those who have an opinion of both of them, 83% have a favorable opinion of ron desantis, trump, just 81%. so ron desantis, among those who know both of them, actually is better liked than donald trump is. >> they both live in florida. >> they both live in florida. this is another way of saying it. look at this, where the voters who know both of them best, look at this, basically an even matchup with donald trump at 44%, ron desantis at 42%, and,

remember, trump won that primary by 19 points in 2016. so the fact that we are this close is a real suggestion when voters really get to know these candidates, ron desantis does as well as donald trump does. >> donald trump, strong but maybe not as strong. maybe people are starting to look elsewhere, you can also potentially see it in in influence in the primaries. >> if you look at the trump primary endorsement, he's winning most of the time. in 2020, he won 96% of those races. now, just 82% of those races. so, again, it is not that republicans dislike donald trump, but it is clear that the love they once had for him may be coming away just a little bit. >> maybe not turning on him, but turning from him. >> that's a beautiful way of putting it. you're great with words. >> harry, thank you very much. brianna? what is happening here? are they really pulling away from trump enough? i want to bring in john avlon to talk about this. we see that shift, but i just wonder if it is really going to be enough, if trump announces he's running again, and then you

have his supporters kicking in to high gear, letting their support be known. >> especially if you got a crowded primary field. i don't want to skate too far ahead to 2024. >> why ever not? >> it is a terrible habit we have got. but, you know what has been happening in plain sight, you have half a dozen republicans who have been actively exploring runs. if it is a crowded republican field, donald trump is going to be the tallest guy in that outfit by a lot. name, i.d., enthusiasm, all that. what is interesting about the desantis challenge as harry just dug into it is who can approximate trump's toughness that the base likes with less seditious conspiracy, with less baggage? that's going to be appealing for a lot of folks, particularly in what is left of the center right of the republican party. i liked a lot of the policies, but this guy is just a disaster for democracy. >> you still have to beat him, though. this is the problem last time, in a crowded field. nobody knew how to hit trump, nobody knew how to hit back at

trump. they were always thinking he was going to fall on his own sword, fall from his own demons. that did not happen. this is a person you have to beat. i still don't know if the republicans who are looking at running against him this time understand that. >> that's the big question, right. let's go back -- flash backward for a second to 2016 when this all unfolded. scott walker had been the front-runner. wisconsin, conservative governor, hero of the right -- remember, we were all obsessed with him for a while. he was like the first to get out of the race and looked around and said, guys, do you see what's going on? he announced what was dropping out, he said you have to figure this out, if you don't get on the same page, he's going to win. it is entirely possible that's going to happen this time. trump is going to take these guys out one by one by one by one. >> trump did lose, that hasn't lost before, he lost a major national election. the other point is some of the success potentially is really focusing on culture, getting away from trump, focusing more

on culture, focusing more on left, where we have seen gains made on the part of other republicans. and the ability to parse some of these issues a little bit to separate corruption, conspiracy from other things that, you know, that they may agree with about trump and trump's approach to government. and the other point that i just want to make going back to our previous segment that is really important for critics, especially democrats and liberals who say, you know, anyone who worked for trump, you know, we should throw them all out, they're all bad, just remember that, when you heard the testimony from those trump loyalists, and not to demonize all of those people. >> i'll bring in john dean on this. what do you think is at stake if you, you know, first off, to david's point about that, but also what do you think is at stake if donald trump runs again and has the chance to win? >> i think he's going to be very strong as john avlon knows, i have written and studied this

personality behind these people that support trump, through authoritarian personalities, they're very, very, very hard to move. they are loyal like no other personality in the political spectrum. so i think trump has -- he knows he's got those people. he didn't go looking for them. they found him, and he brought people out who have never played in the game before. they're there. they're going to stay with him. and he's going to be tough if he runs. i think it helps his criminal situation possibly, it will influence it, but we had federal candidates run from federal prisons before too. >> yeah. >> so, sara, you have new reporting on rudy giuliani, can you tell us? >> yeah. there has been so much news this week. one thing we're learning, we have been focused on the investigations in washington, there is a criminal investigation going on in fulton county, georgia, and there they heard from a bunch of witnesses in front of the grand jury over the last few weeks who have been

very focused on rudy giuliani very focused on his conspiracy laden testimony he gave before lawmakers in the state where he was saying there is all this voter fraud, here's what you need to do, you need to throw out this slate of electors, so there were a number of democratic lawmakers who testified before the grand jury about just how surreal this experience was, how out of the norm it was for him to appear like that, what he was asking lawmakers to do and i asked rudy giuliani's lawyer whether he has heard anything from the fulton countriy district attorney and he said, you know, just heard something from a detective about wanting to see if giuliani's attorney would accept service. i said, do you think that might have been for a subpoena? he said, well, i don't know, because i declined to -- impossible to know what it could be. i asked if he was worried at all about his client being under scrutiny, he said it is hard to worry when you don't know what is going on in that investigation. >> this is the climate. this is the climate in which we will see if donald trump decides to run again, a donald trump

candidacy. is it something that affects him negatively? >> honestly, i think so, yes. here's why, because look at mitch mcconnell, okay. all mitch mcconnell cares about, you saw it in his quotes about guns as well, and politics and suburban voters, all he cares about is winning elections. he knows that donald trump is a loser. he knows that donald trump lost him two senate seats in georgia. this guy is not someone -- the country is split, right? it is entirely possible for republicans to win the white house. any presidential election completely up for grabs. but trump has shown that he is more likely to lose it than a generic republican. >> we're not a 50/50 country on donald trump. we're a 70/30 country. when 58% of americans think he should be charged for inciting the attack on the capitol, that's not a good stat for winning a general election. and so trump will try a political slight of hand, he'll

try to turn the prospect of prosecution into persecution, i'm a victim, right? but what mitch mcconnell and others know, this guy is kryptonite when it comes to suburban swing voters. >> there is so much more to talk about. we can talk about it after the show, if you join me. everyone, thank you so much. appreciate the conversation. federal agents searching the home of a former doj lawyer who pushed election lies, who came close to being the acting attorney general. what we're learning this morning. and don lemon joins us with his exclusive interview with the filmmaker who documented trump's inner circle before and after the capitol attack. but, at upwork, we found him. he's in adelaide betetween his daily lunch delivery and an 8:15 call with san francncisco. and you can find him, and millllions of other talented pros, r right now on upwork.com covid-19. some people get it, and some people can get it bad. and for those who do get it bad, it maye because they have a high-risk factor -

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agents and two fairfax county police officers went into my house, searched it for three and a half hours, they even brought along something, tucker, i've never seen before, or heard of, an electronic sniffing dog and they took all of the electronics from my house. >> that was former justice department lawyer jeffrey clark, speaking about federal investigators searching his home on wednesday. now, clark was at the center of an effort by former president trump to get the justice department to falsely claim that there was widespread election fraud. trump, for a time, sought to install clark as attorney general in the days before the

january 6th capitol riot. here with me, cnn legal analyst and former state and federal prosecutor elie honig. this was a surprise and it was big. investigators with a search warrant going into the home of jeffrey clark, what exactly does that mean that they had a search warrant? >> it is a big step, john. some things we don't know, some things we do know. first of all, in order to get a search warrant, prosecutors have to establish probable cause, not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, probable cause, that a specific crime was committed. as a prosecutor, you can't say, hey, we have probable cause, take our word for it, there are situations you can do that, here you have to lay out, here is our specific evidence, here is the crime we're talking about. you have to show that evidence is likely to be found at that specific location. we just heard jeffrey clark say they took my electronics, phones, laptops, that's what you expect. there is such a thing as an electronic sniffing dog, they train them to sniff the chemicals in the circuitry. a federal judge has to sign off.

that is not automatic. i have sat there in judges' chambers, sometimes they say, yeah, you got it sometimes they say you don't quite have it, i'm not signing off, judge did sign off here. given this was a search on a lawyer, a former doj official, a high profile person with political angles almost certainly had to be approved at the highest levels of the justice department attorney general merrick garland. what could this mean? sometimes, but not always, a search warrant is a precedent to an indictment. but let's look at recent history. two other trump-related lawyers were searched. michael cohen got searched by the fbi back in 2018, he was prosecuted but the only one prosecuted in that case. rudy giuliani was searched a little over a year ago, to this point he's not been charged, nobody else has been charged around that. so we'll see where this one goes. >> why a search warrant and not a subpoena? >> first of all, when somebody gets a subpoena, they can object on the fifth amendment. by turning the documents over, i may be incriminating myself, not with a search warrant. also, generally, when you think someone is going to comply, give you all the information, not

play games, not delete, you can give them a subpoena. if you don't think that, that's when you go to a search warrant. >> probable cause of what? what are the possible crimes that jeffrey clark may have committed? >> we heard yesterday from jeffrey rosen and richard donoghue, donald trump's white house was all over them to find evidence of election fraud. they didn't. jeffrey clark said why don't we just say we found it? he drafted this letter, he said, quote, at this time we have identified significant concerns that may have impacted the outcome of the election in multiple states, including the state of georgia. he wanted doj to send that letter to georgia officials. that's just false. that's a lie. there is no such evidence and he wanted georgia to act on it. he said in the letter, you should call a special session of your assembly to consider your electors. what potential crimes? we could be looking at conspiracy to defraud the united states, doesn't have to be money, can be of a free and fair election, could be obstruction of doj, of an investigation, of congress, fairly counting the electoral votes, could be a

false statement. it is a federal crime to submit a false statement through doj, to the irs, you name it. so those are the potential crimes in play. >> conspiracy here, because people could say he didn't send the letter, so there was no crime committed, but -- >> it is still a crime if you attempt it and if you have a meeting of the minds with somebody, which brings me to the last point, an agreement, let's do this, that's a conspiracy. so who else might be thinking about where they stand this morning? representative scott perry. we heard evidence yesterday that he asked for a pardon. we know that he is the person who introduced jeffrey clark to donald trump and we know he served as a conduit between the white house and jeffrey clark who is their guy inside the doj. he may be concerned today as well. >> we're not saying there will be charges here, we're just laying out the field that they might be playing on now, these investigators, now that this very significant step has been -- >> told us a lot, but not everything. >> thank you. that was very helpful. the filmmaker who has hours of interviews with donald trump and his family from before and

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we won georgia. we won michigan. we won pennsylvania. we won them all. >> as the president has said, every single vote needs to be counted and needs to be heard and he campaigned for the voiceless. >> it is interesting to see ivanka trump say that her father wanted every vote to be counted, because trump's mission in the days after the election was to stop the counting of votes. >> it is a clip from the documentary unprecedented from discovery plus, whose parent company owns cnn. in it, ivanka trump interviewed in december of 2020 mirrors the position of her father and his supporters who were then challenging the results of the 2020 election. it differs from what ivanka trump told the january 6th house committee when asked how she reacted to then attorney general william barr, when he said there was no evidence of widespread

voter fraud. >> i respect attorney general barr, so i accepted what he was saying. >> cnn's don lemon interviewed the filmmaker, alex holder, who interviewed trump and his inner circle before and after january 6th. this is a clip from that interview. >> i think they were interested in them talking about the election, and about whether the election had any irregularities, and also their comments, if any, on january 6th. >> i'm sure there is a lot that was left on the editing room floor, right, because you only have a certain amount of time to put a documentary together, you don't have forever. >> yeah. >> was there anything that they were interested in that does not appear in the documentary? >> yes. so, i mean, the main one being there is sort of a -- first part of ivanka trump's sort of reaction to her father's position on the election is in

the documentary. but there is another part of it that didn't make it into the documentary, and they were interested in her entire sort of piece on that particular point. >> mm-hmm. inconsistencies, perhaps, because she says one thing to her father, she says another thing to the committee, and perhaps something different in your documentary. were they focused on possible inconsistencies from ivanka trump? >> i think so, yes. >> joining me now is the anchor of cnn's don lemon tonight, don lemon. don, this is interesting because it is footage we have not seen, the documentary, but also you talked to alex holder hours after he was testifying behind closed doors with the january 6th committee. it is a perspective we just haven't seen. >> yeah, and it was the first question that i asked him, what was that like, what were the focus of their questions, what was the focus of their questions and he said they were keenly tuned in or focused on what

ivanka trump had to say, and that was surprising to me. what about the inconsistencies? he interviewed ivanka trump three times. and ivanka trump said something different to the january 6th commission, under oath, she said, well, i believe when bill barr said this was bs, i believed that. and so, you know, that's how she conducted herself during that time. she told the filmmaker with different things. one was that she said they should exhaust every legal remedy and then she said, they should count every single vote. but then she said she believed bill barr. now, i was, you know, they talked to ivanka trump three times, she did three different interviews, jared kushner did three different interviews, eric trump did two interviews, donald trump jr. did one interview and they tried get him to do another. i said why were they so focused on evivanka trump and jared kushner said why did they do three interviews, and they wanted to know, i would imagine, what was she doing, what was her

mindset, what had she told her father during and possibly other advisers during that time, so they were focused on her and jared kushner because they were advisers to the president, rather than just on sort of the color around eric trump and donald trump jr. >> what is so interesting about alex hold and the fact of this documentary is that somehow it only entered into the national consciousness in the last few weeks. the committee only found out about it recently. the footage was only turned over recently. alex holder has known about it for a long time. did you get a sense of whether he thinks or has thought that he had something special in his pocket this whole time? >> i think he thought he had something special, but i don't think he realized the magnitude of this. he didn't realize how big it was, i think, until the subpoena came and he said, look, here i am, a documentary, a documentary, potatoes, potatoes, filmmaker, who was just doing his job.

he asked to interview the family, they agreed to these interviews hour and hours and hours, upon hours of interviews, and then all of a sudden he's sort of sitting on a gold mine, a treasure trove of information, so to speak. he said, listen, just days ago i was just sort of this unknown filmmaker, trying to get my documentary put out there. and now i've been subpoenaed by the congress, and i have -- i walk around with two armed security guards because i'm concerned about my safety. so he's concerned about that something similar to what happened on january 6th could happen to him. or the threats that people are getting, republicans, many of them, that -- who are speaking out against donald trump, i shouldn't say against, who are just telling the truth, he's concerned about his safety and the safety of his family as well. so i don't think he realized what he was stepping into. >> and the committee wants the raw footage, for people in tv, not in tv, we shoot a lot of video and only a small fraction of it makes it into the final product, but there is a lot of

extra stuff which has extra things in it. >> he said they didn't ask him for every bit, because there are hundreds of hours of footage. they asked him for specific things that he's willing to give to the commission. he says he's willing to cooperate with them, if they call him back again, he's willing to do it publicly. but he said it was a -- it was a ne racking experience because he wasn't sure what the focus of the questions would be. he said he asked -- i asked him and he asked them as well, about january 6th specifically, and being on the mall, being at the capitol. he said that he anticipated, he and his director of photography anticipated, i bet donald trump will get that group of people, that large group of people to march down to the capitol. he said, surely enough that will happen. i said it sounds to me you're saying that donald trump is responsible, are partially responsible for what happens. he says, absolutely. not only that, he told 75

million people that the election was stolen and that it was fraudulent, and so he is responsible for this. and the january 6th commission asked him about that, and that was his response. >> another key question through all of this has been donald trump's state of mind. did he think he won? hold that thought. we're going to take a quick break, because he gave you some key insight -- >> you'll be surprised by this. >> much more of don's interview and clips from the documentary ahead. this is cnn special live coverage. mers for years. (dad brown) we got iphone 13s, too. switched two minutes ago, literarally right before this. (vo) now everyone can getet a new iphone 13 on us on amemerica's most reliable 5g network. for every customer. current, new, everyryone. to show the lo. i hahave moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are getting clearer, i feel free ♪ ♪ to bare my sk ♪ ♪ yeah, thas all me ♪ ♪ nothingnd me go hand in hand ♪ ♪ nothing on my sn, that's my new plan ♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪

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i have this debate with our director of photography, michael, about whether or not the president actually believed that the election was rigged. and i was of the opinion that, of course, he doesn't really believe the election was rigged. this is just sort of donald trump rhetoric, but after that interview, when he left, and i was now thinking about what had just happened, my entire position changed. he absolutely genuinely believes that he won, and that the election was stolen from him. >> and in that moment you changed your mind? >> absolutely. i changed my mind the point that

he didn't really believe it. my conclusion is that donald trump genuinely believes that he won the 2020 presidential election. and that is terrifying. >> that was the filmmaker, again, behind the docu-series unprecedented, alex holder, sitting down with cnn's don lemon after he testified before the january 6th committee. such a fascinating moment there, don. he's convinced that he believed it, and yet, you know, i just wonder what you think there, maybe that's donald trump trying to convince people to believe it by seeming like he believes it. >> after donald trump had already convinced himself. listen, there is no way in hell, as we would say growing up in louisiana, no way in west hell that donald trump believes or anyone reasonably believes that donald trump won the election, after 60 some odd court cases, after every legitimate adviser around him telling him and everyone in the administration and all of his crazy fake truth

brigade that what they were putting out was bs, there is no way he believed he won. that is the -- if you want to say this, people will get upset, the brilliance of what donald trump does. he co-opts people, right, into his own reality, and he gets them to believe, he creates his own reality, and co-opts people into it. it is the sign of a narcissist. we all know people who have done that. he never does anything wrong and he tries to convince people otherwise, and he gets a lot of people to believe that. this illusory truth effect that people, if you say something loud enough and often enough that people will believe it, and that's what he has done and i think he's done that to himself. you know, deep down, it is obvious, donald trump knows that he lost the election. but he has lied so much about it, his ego is so big that he cannot admit it to himself publicly or at least to his conscious self that he lost the election, so he keeps up this

facade, this fakeness, this lie and he just spreads it out to the rest of the country. and to get a smart person, like the filmmaker, he co-opted that filmmaker, he said, i believe donald trump absolutely believes he won the election. there is no way in west hell donald trump believes he won the election. he just did not. it is the big lie. >> and, but that is what, if this ever gets to a court and a prosecution, it could come down to a version of that question. and what will matter is bill barr, the attorney general, told donald trump that he didn't win. jeffrey rosen, the acting attorney general told him you lost. >> ivanka trump says i believed bill barr. >> and richard donoghue, the acting deputy attorney general told him, you lost. there was no corruption here. donald trump's response to all of that was you guys may not be following the internet the way that i do. >> and of course we should believe everything on the internet. of course we should believe everything on twitter. the internet is not the real world. we know that.

we work in this media landscape and especially the toxic media landscape that is the internet, that is social media. twitter is not the real world. you can read a lot of things on twitter. facebook is not the real world. it is fake. so people get on the internet and they believe that. they believe -- they go to places where there aren't standards, aren't standards, aren't practices, aren't -- no levers to make sure that people are telling the truth and they believe it. when i would interview donald trump, i think a 6-8 times i interviewed donald trump, almost every single time he brought a poll, much of the time it was a fake poll showing this is that, this is that, this is that, and he would bring this to me. and he would spread that to his people. and, again, what he did was illusory truth effect, he got people to believe that he was the person in that board room on the celebrity apprentice. and if you read something often enough, say it loud enough, if you put it on the internet, people will believe it.

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very good friday morning to you. i'm jim sciutto. >> i'm poppy harlow. glad you're with us. we begin this morning with stunning new details on former president trump's plot to try to overturn the 2020 election. the january 6th committee is laying out new wide rafrning evidence showing how top justice department officials resisted repeatedly the former president's pressure campaign, as he demanded they seize voting