tv Whos Talking to Chris Wallace CNN September 25, 2022 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
in to woman's death and condemn iran's record on human rights abuses. thank you smouch for joining me this evening. up next. cnn premier of who's talking to chris wallace. have a good night. welcome to who is talking and our first susunday night here on cnn. use may know i've been covering politics more than 40 years. but now i'm eager to explore some of my other interests. so every week we'll bring you smart, thoughtful conversations with a wide range of people from news makers to athletes. ceo's to comedians, musicians to movie stars and everyone in between. tonight we've got just that for you. starting with an exclusive. retired supreme court justy
steven briar and his first sit down since leaving the court. opens up about the dobbs decision that ended abortion rights during his final and toughest year on the bench. was that frustrating for you to lose important case after important case? >> yes. >> but how frustrating? >> very frustrating. >> then music legend shania twain whose singing career continues to thrive despite brutal setbacks which could make for one pretty great country music song. you've got consider the possibility my career is over. >> yes, i did. i believe after seven years. >> later, movie mogule tyler perry. the actor, writer and drik or the on his latest project unlike anything he's ever done. i go head to head with his most famous character ma dee ya. >> i'm not doing that with
you christopher wallace. >> i worked a lot on this question. don't do that. are you always like this? are you saying parents are wrong? >> yes. >> will you come back? >> yes. of course, i will. >> okay. a week from tomorrow the u.s. supreme court starts a new term without justice steven breyer. for the first time in almost three decades. but it's the last term final one on the court that may have been its and his most con kwen shl. we started the conversation right where his judicial career left off. you had a bad final year. some of the most important cases on the court; abortion, guns, the power of the e-p-a to regulate the climate.
you were on the losing side. was that frustrating for you to lose important case after important case? >> yes. >> but how frustrating? >> very frustrating. >> i mean, does it, do you grit your teeth? >> you do your best. maybe people will agree and maybe they don't. and maybe you'll win and maybe you'll lose. >> it must be painful because we're not just talking about theoretical cases here. we're talking about cases that really affect people's lives. >> yes. yes. >> and believe me thinking of some of the cases you mentioned, i'm not sure you can think of an argument i didn't think of. yes. i thought i wanted -- i thought i had a correct point of view there. i did. of course, i was disappointed. of course, i was. so, now. there's lots more to this life
and this country and there are a lot more ways on bringing people together. >> take us inside the court. we like to talk about a 6-3 conservative majority. does it ever feel like separate camps? >> sometimes. sometimes. less than you think. less than you think because -- but i can't say never. you and others like to talk about the 28th year. i was there for 27 years before. during the 27 years before, actually, we were unanimous about 40-50% of the time. and the five fours were about, i don't know, 15%, 20%, sometimes 25. it wasn't always the same five and the same four. >> what was different in the 28th year? >> i lost a lot. you said it. because i thought that 28th year i thought we had some cases that i thought were very important
cases and i was very, particularly, sorry we lost them. >> i guess the question i'm trying to get to is as the majority in this 28th year, decide cases, important cases that you disagreed with. did it ever get strained personally? >> what happens is we get on well personally. example, when renquist was there after the kfrnls. with two five four decisions going either way on matters of importance we go lunch together. we're up in the dining room having a jolly, sort of, a pleasant conversation. i say to renquist isn't it amazing we're having a nice conversation with each other and enjoying it. half an hour ago we were,
renquist says, i know. a half an hour ago half the court thought the other half was out of their minds. but we're getting, as people, as people we get on. >> let's talk about the dobbs decision. specifically, that overturned roe v. wade. how damaging do you think the decision to say that women no longer have a right to abortion. how damaging do you think it has been to court and to the country? >> well, the court went down in approval ratings down to 25%. you don't know how long that will be lasting. we don't know. i say in my decent it would be damaging? all right. >> how damaging to the country do you think it's been? >> well, what did i say in the decent? we had three of us writing a decent. we thought it was for many, many
reasons harmful to the court and we thought for many reasons it was generally a harmful decision. we thought it was wrong. five people thought it was right. so the truthful answer is at this moment i don't know exactly. >> in your book, the authority of the court and the peril of politics. you write that if people come to see justices as politician in robe. junior league politician, as you put it, that's going to be damaging to the standing of the court. >> yes. >> in your decent on dobs the three so called liberal justice's right. the court reverses course today for one reason and one reason only. because the composition of this court has changed. are you saying that this wasn't a legal decision so much as it
was the policy preferences of a new majority on the court, conservative justices appointed by republican presidents? >> you try to separate those two things. for most of my career as a judge i try not to. the groups who are interested in politics, really in politics, they wouldn't say they were anything else. they work on a president to get a judge appointed who will have an approach towards the constitution and who will have an approach toward the law that they believe will end up in a decision that will favor what they politically want. >> outcome. >> correct. the judge himself, and it took me a long time to understand this. but the judge himself does not think he or she is being political. we do think what we think,
right. and that is partly pure jurisprudence. partly philosophy. partly the way we brought up. partly what we think about how the constitution of the united states and the government of the united states and a the supreme court of the united states fit among the governing political institutions. but the point is people who have a, well, this is the way. this is the way. i've got it .1, .2, .3. that is the way. they will disc way. >> are there people on the court now who say this is the way? >> you better ask them. because i'm saying i hope not. >> but you're not saying no. >> you start writing too rigidly and you will see the world will come around and bite you in the back. because you will find something you see just doesn't work at
all. and the supreme court, somewhat to the difference of others, has that kind of problem in spades. life is complex. life changes and we want to maintain in so far as we can, everybody does, certain key moral, political value, democracy, human rights, equality, rule of law et cetera. >> in may 2nd months before the dobbs opinion, a draft opinion, very close to what the court decided, leaked to the press. how damaging was that both to the court and what impact did it have on the justices inside the court? >> i don't know the individual impact. that was individual decision making. but i think it was very damaging. >> within 24 hours the chief justice ordered an investigation
of the leaker. have they found him or her? >> i have, not to my knowledge but i'm not privy to it. >> so, in those months since the chief justice never said hey we got our man or woman? >> to my knowledge, no. still to come. by conversation with justice turns to the future of the court and revealing answer about why he decided to hang up his robe now. if you're going to miss it and you think you're up to it, why did you rere? whose talkingo chris wallace is brought to you by gillette. gillette. the best a man can get. of the. for effortless shaving in one efficient stroke. ♪ gillette. the best a man can get. ♪ does it get better than never getting lost? ♪ does it get better than not parallel parking yourself? ♪
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because when you think something through in a problem you have a chance to express your view and then you may have an impact. i've always enjoyed. i might have an impact with the books i write. that's far, far out an impact with a book. but an impact as a justice you talk to your fellow colleagues, you talk in the conferences, you end up trying to produce something that, at least five and we hope more, can join. and then if it works you've done the best you can in this small area of law to make it a little bit clearer or work a little bit better. that's a satisfactory thing for me. >> if you're going miss it and you think you're up to it, why did you retire? >> i'm 84 years old. i've done this for a long time. other people should have a chance. the world does change and we don't know, frankly, what would
happen if i just stayed there and stayed there. how long would i have to stay there? how long are people going to keep in the political world disagreeing and so forth and not being able to find who would be the next person? i owe a loyalty to the court. >> maybe i'm reading more in to it than you're saying. i sometimes do that. it seems part of your calculus was you wanted joe biden to name your successor. >> i want someone to be able to. you tell me, you're the expert. you're the expert. what are the risks because i don't know? if i stay there another year, another two years, you know, i'm not methuselah. even another three years. will it be possible for a president to nominate and to have confirmed my replacement? that's a kind of thing that's
if my mind. >> wait. >> there have been delays when the parties split between control of the senate and control of the presidency. and sometimes long times pass. i would prefer that my own retirement, my own membership on the court, not get involved in what i call those purely political issues. >> so the fact that it was a democratic president and a democratic majority in the senate played a role? >> you have tod it play some role? could have. it depends on what the republicans were. >> let's talk about the future of the court. this summer justice alito made a speech in which he talked about the dobbs decision. here he is. >> i had the honor this term of writing, i think, the only supreme court decision in the history of that institution that
has been lamb basted by a string of foreign leaders. what really wounded me was when the duke of sussex addressed the united nation and compare, the decisions whose name may not be spoken with the russian attack on ukraine. >> after what the court did in this last term, can you honestly say, because they are going to hear cases on affirmative action and voting rights. can you honestly say any precedent is safe anymore? >> sure. i think quite a few others. i'll show you something. this is the constitution. >> yes, sir. i was going to ask you at some point whether you had your constitution. >> no it's in my suit pockets. >> how many constitutions? do you have them in various suits? >> yeah. they all say the same thing. >> i understand that. the suits don't all look the
same though. >> no. they look pretty shabby. >> in other words you don't want to, you don't have a constitution on your bedside table you take and put in your jacket, there in the jacket? >> yeah. >> okay. just so you're armed. >> yeah. people ask me questions and i can look it up. look. first words of amendment one, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise there of. alito thinks there aren't as many people who are religious. when i look at it i think at the time they wrote this there were maybe four or five religions in the united states. and today there are a hundred. and he thinks, perhaps, we should pay more attention in the constitution even if we're secular. even if we're not religious to those who it is religion. i think what this means where
you have a country with a hundred religions, and, by the way, people feel very strongly about their religion. that we ought to pay a lot of attention, a lot of attention, to the need to decide cases in a way that will prevent social discord stemming from religion. >> you talk about social harmony but when the court undoes a right that people have lived with for half a century, doesn't that very much shake the authority of the court? >> did i like this dobbs decision? of course i didn't. of course, i didn't. was i happy about it? not for an instant. did i do everything i could to persuade people? of course. of course. but there we are and now we go on and we try to, it's a little corny what i think but i do think it. >> from the vantage point of
being 84 and 28 years on the court, how concerned are you about the state of the country today and the polarization and the fact that what, you know, you may have had one view of an issue and i had a different view but we agreed on the ground rules and that no longer seems to exist in this country. at least in some quarters. how discouraged are you or worried about that >> worried. devastated? no. we've had bad times before and we pull ourselves out. not to necessarily make everything perfect. but we pull ourselves out to make them better. and that's why i want those students to go out there and participate. really. that's what this document is about. it's their country and it's easier to say as an older person. but i say my friends it's up to you now. go do it. still to come. ty
tyler perry made us laugh for years. tonight he talks about how the abuses he suffered as a child helped him become a big player in the movie business he is today. but first music star shania twain tells me how her life changed forever at the height of her career. >> it was either, i took the chance and gave it a try or i would never. i would just have to stop my singing career. ♪ ♪
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that's kind of insensitive. we prefer day-adjacent. i'll go man-pire. welcome back to who's talking. good country music songs are known for their tragic themes and sometimes country music artists lives, like that of my next guest, play out those same themes. shania twain has worked hard to turn personal tragedy in to motivation. i started by asking her where she gets that strength.
>> i think every time something brings me down or tries to bring me down there's a -- it feel mrs. determination. i can't really explain it. just i'm not going to be held down. i have this determed nature. >> let's start at the top. in 1995 you have your big first hit album, the woman in me. let's take a look at one of the videos. >> all right. [singing] ♪ how the story goes ♪ ♪ he's got to be a heartbeating earthquaking time ♪ ♪ any man of mine ♪ >> it's such fun watch youing watching you. what do you think? what would you say to that girl? >> whenever i see this
video i think i was so naive in a lot of ways. i really didn't understand camera angles yet. i didn't understand how to make a video. it was all very new to me. it was early on and so i feel like i was in a girlish way still trying all of these things on. but at the same time, i was 30 when i had my first hit off that album. i had maturity but i was very new. >> your next album, come on over. let me make sure i have this right. is still the best selling studio album by a solo female artist in history. here's one reason why. ♪ don't get me wrong i think you're already ♪ ♪ that don't impress me much
♪ >> now they are not only saying it's too sexy they are saying it's not country. >> exactly. >> did you care? >> no. of course not. i cared about my intentions and my michael. i had my eyes on my path. i was taking risks. there were times when it was a difficult to take. there was a lot of roadblocks. there were a lot of roadblocks. i just had to keep pushing through. >> so, i have a confession to make. around the time i go to yellow stone national park on a summer trip with my family. we have a cassette of this album. yes, all of our family, including me, sings this song. ♪ feel the attraction ♪ ♪ cover my head doing a dance ♪ ♪ feel the way i feel ♪
♪ man, i feel like a woman ♪ >> so, want to join me in a round. >> do you get sassy when you sing this song? which part do you sing? >> you can start. i'll join you with man i. [singing] ♪ man i feel like a woman ♪ >> a little embarrassed. i told america i'm sitting around yellow stone going man, i feel like a woman. >> my audience sings it and it's a mix of men and women. there's no, you know, no words there. you're welcome to sing it any time you like. >> thank you very much. all right. now we're going to get to some of the rough parts.
2004 at the height of your career. you're recording. you're touring and you get lyme disease and lose your voice. how bad was it? how bad was the situation with your voice? >> i could not project my voice. i couldn't call out to the dog, for example. i was sort of speaking a little. i was speaking up here all the time in that tone. i couldn't go any louder than that. >> you've got to have considered the possibility my career is over. >> yes, i did. i believed that for seven years. >> so you ended up having surgery and, as i was thinking of this question i was going to say it's not just vocal cords. to anybody in your profession and frarngly on somebody in my profession operating on vocal cords is terrifying. >> it was the whole larynx. it went through the whole larynx. i still have a scar there.
the larynx is opened in four directions. completely opened up you are the throat through the adams am and in to reach the sides of the vocal cords. they don't touch the vocal cords because my vocal cords are in excellent shape. it was a risk. it was i either took the chance and gave it a try or i would never, i would just have to stop my singing career. >> tell me about muttline. she takes a drink of water. >> muttlang is a person that really taught me the most about collaboration. i had always been a solo writer. she was also my ex-husband. we have a long marriage, song writing team. we wrote so many hits together. it ended very tragically for me.
i was very sad that it ended in divorce. he left me for another person. i had to start over. i was luosing. i lost what i hd become my music colab ray or the. my music director. being the producer of the music, as well. and then part of my family. it was tough. i was also going through the, i had lost my voice at this point, as well. >> this was happening during your illness. it's not like he's, i don't want to beat up on him but not waiting until you're all better. you're laid low professionally and now laid low personally. >> yes. >> if a music video is the best revenge you got even with a video in which, it's pretty
funny. you dump mutt out of a family photo. >> yes. >> let's take a look. [singing] ♪ i had to believe that things would get better ♪ ♪ it was time to forget you, forever ♪ >> how good did that feel? >> it certainly felt great to be in that head space by then. and it was so wonderful to smile again and to feel like i'm really moving forward. unstuck. i had to unstick myself. nobody can do that for you. so, by this time now making this video i'm going through therapy. i'm getting to the bottom of how to get my voice back again. i'm feeling empowered. i'm remarried my husband is an incredible support.
>> you released a song recently from your 6th album. let's take a look at that. [singing] that is a long way from country. >> yes. good point. you are correct. it is a long way from country. i mean it's not really fair to say stylistically it's that far away anymore. country music has caught up in a lot of ways or excepts or explorers fashion more. but this is a very, even for me, i'm very much playing superstar. i am dressing up and having a lot of fun with fashion and looks like never before. it's unlike anything i've ever done before fashion wise. fashion beauty and styling. so this was me really being that
little girl and digging through closet to find, you know, the most, the craziest way i could get dressed up. i had a lot of fun with it. the song is very poppy. it's high energy boppy poppy. kind of like the whole styling of the song and video is very much prince influence and blondie. it's got a rock and roll edge. it's indulgent for me. >> well, you've earned indell gent. coming up. a conversation with tyler perry and surprising confession about his most famous character, madea.
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character. the church going, bible quoting, gun toting madea. now tyler perry is explores other p projects including a movie he says is the first time he enjoyed directing. that's where our conversation starts. >> everything else felt like work. this i held on so long waiting for the right time. what was most important to me is that that was always intentional, strategic. this was just love. i showed up onset every day. i wanted every shot to be as if you could frame it. so every element, everything you touched from the sets to the trees to the location. it all spoke to me. it was more than what i ever imagined when i wrote it 27 years ago. >> i particularly enjoyed the big production numbers. let's take a look at one. >> thank you. [singing]
yeah. >> are you enjoying him or are you enjoying what you did as the director? >> first of all, i'm super proud of him. this is his first big role. debbie allen's choreography. realizing that is an old gym at the studio we converted in to a jazz club. a lot going on but amazing. >> that's a theater in downtown chicago. >> absolutely. we sold it to you. >> you did. that's joshua boone who is the star of the movie and great in it. i read a quote where he said he wasn't sure, at first, whether he was going sign on for this
because while your movies made a lot of money they didn't often get or ever get good reviews. do you think that's true and if so, why? why haven't you prior to this gotten good reviews? >> you know, yes, that is true and that is fair. but what i know about it, again, it goes back to intentionality of it all. i was speaking directly to my audience in a way that we speak. a language that we speak that we get. if you're a trained eye you may not understand that or get it. you know, the criticism is what it has been and what it was, what it is. that's all fine. >> one of the themes in the movie is colorism and the idea that people are judged by, even if their own group, by how light or dark their skin is. why was that, and you say you written the movie 17 years? >> 27 years ago. >> 27 years ago. why did you want to address that? >> when i started writing
the character played by joshua boone his father despised him. it reminded me of my own father. some of the problems my father had with me was i was a brown child. his favorite child was a fair child. my father grew up in the jim crowe south. the mentality of the lighter your skin the better you were. it still lives on today which is shocking t >> before movies you started writing, directing and starting in plays. that's where you created your signature character madea. let's take a look at her. >> you want to show it go ahead. >> why? what's the matter? >> that's fine. we'll watch it. i don't know what you're going to play. let's see it. i'm going look this way. >> all right. all right folks. please, bear with me.
he's not looking. please look. i don't know why you'd have a problem with it. here is madea in a play. >> did you have to tear up her flowers? >> you act like she didn't owe me $20. i checked her bra and the flowers started falling over. what did they put a bra on a dead woman anyway. if you put a bra on my i'm going to come back and kill you. i ain't lying. >> i'm so curious at your reaction. he didn't look at it folks. why? >> first of all, i've always been extremely uncomfortable in that suit and playing the character but the audience loves it so much. i was going to do it for one little scene on stage and the lead character didn't show up so the character got bigger and bigger every night. that's where it started. i love what it does for people. but the process to get it there and do it and all of that is a lot. yeah. >> do you feel that way about movie, as well as, play
sns about madea? >> yeah. >> we're going to have a bad time. >> a lot of madea. >> explain though. who is madea? >> madea is a southern term cross for mother dear. but she is based on, which i love about my mother and aunts. but my mother and aunt are the pg version. she's the pg verse of them. >> really? she's not so pg. >> they are nc-17. but she is definitely homage to all the black women in my life who helped form me to help me become the man i am through just really form everything about hi life. shh e is somebody who would love you and take care of you but punch you in the face if you said the wrong thing. >> that's madea. i am a little bit hesitant because i'm about to show another clip. >> i'm with you. >> all right. >> okay. >> all right. in 2006, you turn that play in
to a film. madea's family ree downon. you play at knowledge madea but her brother, joe. let's take a look. >> okay. >> mover over man. step aside. >> did she just push you joe? >> she don't know us. we baptist. we tear this church up. >> you don't know me i'll set it off up here. jesus just saved your life. >> she don't know me at all. i'm a thug. i'm a real thug. i shot tupac. i did the first time. i didn't kill him. that wasn't me. >> you shake your head. i've watched this for the first time three weeks ago. i think it's brilliant. >> thank you i appreciate that. i'm not denying that it's great and funny. i enjoy it. but i have to disassociate that that's me in that. old man joe i'm fine with for some reason but her. yeah. here's the thing. the audience won't let it go.
the last time i did i said i'm out. i'm not doing it anymore. the world goes upside down and we have a president and a new president. i wanted to make people laugh. i said what do i have in pull her out. put the movie on netflix. it's number one everywhere. yeah. the minute people stop coming to see her that old broad is dead. she's dead. for sure. >> let's get this out of the way. you've had to deal with this at some point. when madea first came out, spike lee called it buffoonery. people say you are playing with neg negative stereo types of black men and women. >> i've heard it all. >> how do you respond >> there's a certain part of our society, especially black people, in the culture they look down on certain things within the culture.
for me i love the movies that i've done because they are the people that i grew up with that i represent. so when someone says this is you harkening back to a point in our life we don't want to talk about or see. you're dismissing store roifs millions and because it resonates with a lot of us who know these women and experiences and so on and so forth. but what's important to me is i'm honoring the people that came up and taught and made moo who i am. coming up, tyler perry gets personal, and i get the madea treatment. can you give us a little madea? >> i'm not doing that with you, christopher wallace. includes apple one. that's apple music, apple tv+, apple arcade, icloud+. (adam) i hear the acting's pretty good on that one. (cecily) so is the deal i got from verizon. iphone 14 pro, on them! you should get one. oh, selfie time!
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and tyler perry's roeal life story is no different. you grew up in new orleans poor and the victim of a father who you say literally would whip the flesh off your bones and that at one point you attempted to commit suicide. i want to put a picture up on the wall here. when you look at that little boy -- that's you when you're 5 -- what do you say to this vantage point to then about your 5-year-old self? >> that's hard for me. jesus, i look so much like my son. the great thing about having a child, now a 7-year-old, i get to say all those things i didn't get to say to my younger self, so i feel like it's helping to heal a lot of wounds. but to let him know that he's going to be okay and he's --
he's enduring things that he has no control over, but as a man i will pay it forward. i will try to be the best man i can be because of what he endured, that's what i would tell him. >> do you -- and how do you feel about the fact you didn't get that? i mean, did you come to terms with the fact you didn't get that from your father, or is it still an open wound? >> i've come to terms with it, but the beauty of it is having my son, i'm telling you every time i say i love him, i feel the little boy in me. every time i hug him i feel the little boy is me. all those things i've never had as a kid, there's something in me being healed and massaged. and it's just a -- it's a beautiful thing. there's something about having a child especially when they're at the age when you were experiencing the most abuse that if you're on the other side of it, it really speaks to you.
>> if you got a raw deal for your dad, you've got a great deal from your mom, maxine, who took you to church weekly. and you say that saved you. explain. >> just the understanding of she and i were enduring the same kind of hell because he was abusive to her as well. on sunday she'd take me to church and the music and the gospel and preaching all of it, she'd be crying and happy and joyous. and for me i wanted to be in that. i wanted to know that god that made her so happy. so had it not been for her i don't know where i'd be. my father sent a message a few years ago to me saying if i'd beat your ass more times you'd be a barack obama, meaning his beating brought me to success, but totally negates the success of my mother. it was her love that brought me
to this place. >> you talk about your son who's now 7 years old. how seriously do you take your role or your position as a role model not just to your son but to all kids of color to show them what success is possible in their lives? >> well, just -- just the idea of me being a black man in america i think any kid that's black or brown who wonders if it can be done seeing me, i hope that that inspires them so that they know because i didn't have a whole lot of those people growing up. so exposure changed my life, understanding there were people out there doing all kinds of incredible things. so my hope is that everything that i'm doing will inspire in some other way. so i take it very seriously from that point of view, from the studio to the movies, to anything i'm doing to let anybody who's a dreamer no matter where you come from if you're willing to work hard, not be a victim, know sometimes the playing field is not level and
you just have to do your best, you can make it. so that's what my hope is for anyone. >> you say you don't have to work but you're clearly going to work. and i read you said i want to play in different areas than i have before. like what? >> i have a sci-fi movie about zombies. i've been wanting to do it for a long time, so i'm really excited about that. i'm working on a world war ii movie next, so i just want to tell different stories. >> and what about madea? what does she want? >> listen, if the audience wants to see her, she'll be around. >> can you give us a little madea? >> i'm not doing that with you, christopher wallace. chris christopher wallace, i'm not doing that with you. listen, as long as -- i can't turn my back on the very thing that brought me over. i'll never do that. my mother told me keep madea around. >> there is much more of our conversation with tyler perry as well as our sit downs with
shania twain and justice breyer. you can catch our full interviews anytime you want on hbo max. thanks for watching tonight, and please join us here on cnn every sunday night to find out who's talking next. the following is a cnn special report. it's about 5:15 in the morning, and i am on the first leg of my trip to havana. >> i'd like to take you on a journey for a story that begins on an isolated island. >> several state employees may