the life of groundbreaking former new zealand prime minister jacinda ardern. it is in theaters on june 13th, and there are special amc preview screenings on june 8th, featuring a live q&a with former prime minister ardern, which i will be moderating. you can find tickets on sale at prime minister dot .com. thank you very much for watching newsnight. you can catch me anytime on your favorite social media apps instagram and tiktok. in the meantime, laura coates live starts right now. live diddy on trial. good

evening and welcome. i'm laura coates right here in new york city tonight. and on day ten of diddy's trial, i saw the tearful testimony from a former diddy employee who spent years in his inner circle. she claims that he kidnaped her and threatened to kill her in just a moment. my team of legal experts in court, insiders will go through what we heard from capricorn clark. now, her testimony is critically important to the prosecution because her job put her inside the core of diddy's business empire. now, clark testified that she was kidnaped. her words. when diddy found out that cassie ventura was dating kid cudi. she also told the jury today about the multiple times that diddy had threatened her own life, including during her very first day on the job. and she said that diddy had final approval over every aspect of cassie's career. now clark, she worked for diddy on and off for more than a decade, starting first as a personal assistant in 2004 and what she alleged happened in december of 20 11th

may be the most shocking. that's when diddy discovered that cassie was in a relationship of some kind with kid cudi. she said that diddy banged on her door around 6:00 in the morning, holding a gun and furious she didn't tell him about cassie and cody. clark told this to the jury, quote, he just said, get dressed, we're going to kill this n word. and when she tried to protest, she said, diddy told her, i don't give an f what you want to do. go get dressed. now, clark said that she was then swept into a cadillac escalade. they drove to kid cudi home, and she claimed that diddy and one of his security guards then went inside the house. clark frantically called cassie to tell her what was happening. happening, testifying that a short time later, cody's car pulled up next to them and then took off. diddy, the security guard, jumped back in the escalade. then she described a short car chase before she got away. after it was all over, clark said

diddy gave her an ultimatum. she and cassie needed to sway kid cudi against telling the cops that diddy was involved in the alleged break-in. clark testified, quote, he says, if you guys don't convince him. of that, i'll kill all you mfers. but that wasn't the only time that clark said that she feared for her own life. she claimed diddy once accused her of stealing diamond jewelry so that she suffered through five straight days of lie detector tests inside of a gutted, rundown manhattan office building. she testified the man giving the tests warned her, quote, i'm not getting a good reading. you need to calm down. you're going to be in the east river. if i can't get a reading on this. clark even said that diddy threatened her on her very first day working for him, testifying that it's because she worked at suge knight's record label before working for diddy. she claimed diddy took her to

central park with his bodyguard when this happened, he told me he didn't know that i had anything to do with suge knight, and if anything happened, he would have to kill me. clark also testified about diddy's control over cassie ventura, saying that he had final approval on everything from cassie's hair and makeup to the projects she was working on. i want to get with cnn's elizabeth wagmeister, who saw all of the testimony in court today. it was quite a day. she testified very emotionally, by the way, for a long period of time. and it was about a very dark parting message that she spoke about today when diddy fired her in 2012. what did she say happened? >> yes. so capricorn clark didn't just testify to what she alleged happened while she was working for diddy. she also testified and told the jury that after she was terminated, that he essentially blacklisted her from the industry. i want to read you part of what she said on the stand. she said, quote, that he said that i would never

work again, that he would show me that all these people weren't my friends and he would make me kill myself. so she testified to the jury that she was scared because he had the power and the control over her career. she said that her home at the time was paid for by the company. her car was paid for by the company. all these things went away when she was terminated and she had trouble getting another job. >> she was breaking down in sobs throughout. i mean, it almost was like she was on the on the edge of always crying. and she did throughout her entire testimony. but it was when she talked about asking for sean's forgiveness that she really got emotional. what happened? >> yes. so the defense during the cross-examination, they brought up a series of emails and text messages showing that capricorn clark stayed in communication with sean combs even after she was terminated as recently as 2021, that she had been in communication with him as recently as 2024, that she had met with him now, she explained this because she said

he had all the power and she had nothing. and again, remember she used that word blacklisted. so her explanation was i had to work. i had to put food on the table. she said that she has a son with autism who is non-verbal. she has to provide for m. and she felt that the only way to continue to work in this industry was to stay in diddy's good graces, because she did say that she went to a few other companies for what she thought were job interviews or meetings, and that she realized that she was blacklisted because she thought her perspective that diddy badmouthed her in the industry. >> she went for interviews. they returned with warnings, apparently a lot to unpack. let's go over to the table. i want to talk to some of our great legal minds who are here as well, to break this all down, we've got cnn legal analyst and of course criminal defense attorney joey jackson is in the building today. also, we have the former westchester da, mimi rocha and former manhattan prosecutor jeremy saland. there is a lot to unpack today. first

of all, she was really emotional throughout the entire day. i cannot overstate that enough. she was on the verge of tears throughout, at some times holding her head in her hands, taking off her glasses just to emote even more. i don't mean emote in the way that i didn't believe her, but she was really emotional. i want to begin with you, jeremy, because now we are in week three. okay? i want to try to reset and remind our viewers about the charges here. you've got rico, you've got sex trafficking, you've got prostitution. all important. let's start with rico racketeering. essentially. first up, you've got the predicate crimes. how does this move the needle towards the prosecution? proving rico does it? >> i don't think they have until recently. and i think it starts in part, in large part with capricorn. but they moved it until agnifilo did a good job, a little bit in moving it back, because you need that predicate act. and here we'll go with kidnaping to. >> translate that. what that means is predicate act. what does that mean in.

>> layman's terms? underlying crime. that's part of this. you need more than one that helps build to the structure for this criminal enterprise. and this is where they were going. and here you have the kidnaping as a piece of this and sort of furtherance, not a one off, but in furtherance of this criminal conspiracy and what she says is at one point is that, you know, she gets into the car and she's forced into the car, and i think she claims that she also told cassie and cuddy when in the call that there was a gun, but they didn't say anything about the gun. she says something about how she went along, possibly to make sure everything was okay. and diddy didn't get into further trouble. in substance, she was cross-examined by marc agnifilo on that point. well, then, was she really taken there against her will? you need to establish these predicate acts again. we're going to go with kidnaping. otherwise you can't get that rico or conspiracy. rico, charge! did they move the ball? they had to get there because they haven't gotten there yet. did they do enough? not yet. >> so we're 17 witnesses in. we're still on the predicate part. and of course, the jurors are not hearing every single day. this is the predicate part of the government's case. but

they got to prove the predicate. but the word enterprise is going to be top of mind for them as well. they have to show that there is an enterprise itself, and they, of course, have now an inner part of the circle in terms of this woman capricorn clark. now she says maybe that security guards ran lie detector tests. she didn't know who everyone was involved, that they were going to throw her in the east river over allegations that she stole from jacob the jeweler. there was mob like terms, the east river beyond that. does that, in and of itself confirm that there was an inner circle that wasn't enterprise? >> well, i think we're getting there. and i think they've started to put in the building blocks for that. it wasn't the first piece. right. the first piece obviously were through the first few witnesses was establishing the sex trafficking and the coercion through cassie and then corroborating witnesses. i think now what we've started to see is how combs used employees of his

business, of his business. to i mean, there was a legitimate business, but then these employees were being asked or told to do illegitimate things as well. >> which is. >> part of the enterprise. >> you could have a legitimate business doing illegitimate acts and so forth. it doesn't have to be a fake entity. >> yes. or just that the people doing it may have legitimate jobs, be employees, receive salaries for that, but they're also doing other things for this purpose, which here is alleged to be essentially the satisfaction of combs, his desires, his needs, his self-esteem, his power, his control. it's it's going to i mean, we have a ways more to go. and this is one of those cases that i think is very much going to come down to closing arguments and how the government brings all that together to

explain the enterprise to the jury. and i think they'll do a very good job here. but i think they're putting in the building blocks of that now. >> that's always my concern. obviously, closing arguments not going to be testimony. they're going to have to build all these things. they're going to try to. you often wonder when they don't ask them one next question. they sort of leave the question lingering. i almost take a mental note and say they're going to put that in the closing. they don't want the next statement. they want that in isolation. joey, you've got the predicate that jeremy's talking about. you've got the enterprise building blocks that we're talking about in terms of the rico. what about the area of the pattern of behavior? because that has to be part of any rico. >> it absolutely does. listen, this is a very concerning witness because she checks a lot of boxes. and now it's not about one witness. it's about the continuity and the ongoing steps of the testimony. what have we heard to this point? we've heard about guns. we've heard about drugs, we've heard about money. we've heard about sexual and bad behavior. now we get to her. and now there's a couple of things that i'm concerned about, about patterns. number

one, this. >> concerned as the defense attorney. >> as a defense attorney, i'm very concerned about pattern issues. like what? like the issue of kidnaping as it relates to going over kid cudi house and whether that actually happened or didn't. but it's not only that. it's about a lie detector test. right? and it's about you being held for five days to take this lie detector test. that's more kidnaping. and then you get to the issue of arson because there's corroboration. what arson. the the fire bombing of kid cudi's car. she corroborates that. and so jurors are not about predicate. what predicate? it's going to come down to. was this an organization that did a lot of bad things over a continuous period of time? and was there this degree of lawlessness? and so if you believe her, right, that is, you believe the testimony today with regard to all of these threats with regard to this break-in, with regard to the lawlessness, with regard to her, you know, having and being under his control. that's the reason i came back. you blackballed me from the industry. then as a defense

attorney, i'm a bit concerned. and you got to get that testimony whittled away. and that's going to be the challenge. >> i'm i'm sort of biting back here. i'm used to joey being more on the defense side, as opposed to advocating for the prosecution. so i'm a little i'm a little flummoxed here. but you are. yeah. yeah, we're both are. but you know, she came back because she had a big crush on him. she came back because she couldn't get a job when she blackballed, or she couldn't get the money that she needed. there's a lot of reasons she came back. she came back because she thought she was a protector. in part for cassie, the cassie that she was jealous of. so, you know. >> well, she said she didn't really like kat. >> no, she didn't. >> like. >> she could have been. >> she changed over time and became more of a feisty girlfriend as opposed to sweet model, and then talked about how it was a statement. she said, i'm paraphrasing here. it was almost as if she thought i was getting paid to help her. that was her initial irritation, right? >> right. and i actually am so curious to know what the jury thinks about that relationship between capricorn clark and cassie ventura, because one school of thought is this really helps give capricorn

credibility, because she didn't really like cassie. but yet then she also testified that at one point she actually called cassie ventura mom and said, he is beating your daughter and i am in over my head. i can't do anything about this. you have to do something. please call the cops. so i wonder if that gives her credibility in front of the jury, because it seems like this isn't someone that she likes, and yet she saw something that was wrong and she called it out. and, joey, you said something so interesting, which is, if you're a juror, you're not thinking predicate this, that you're just hearing patterns. they've now heard that this is the second employee who testified that they were put into a car against their will, when diddy had guns and forced them to go somewhere. that's not normal for a boss to do. certainly at a company with hr. >> yes. well, maybe on that point and you mentioned hr. because it seemed pretty clear in the testimony. i mean, hr, there may have been standalone, but diddy would be informed by hr. there wasn't like the total cone of silence. it didn't seem like the testimony. but does it give her more credibility to essentially admit that it wasn't all copacetic with

people like cassie, that she didn't like her at certain times, that she was struggling and may have had a crush before, although she wouldn't admit fully about that. does it give her more credibility to a jury? >> absolutely, because she's not, you know, cassie's mom. you could explain away. it's her mom. of course she's going to say something to corroborate her. you know, here is someone who doesn't have that personal interest. the other thing that gives. >> him for work, i mean, she is the ultimate gatekeeper in this trial. >> well, what i was going to say is, even now, i mean, what gives, really, all of them, but especially her credibility, is why would anyone want to get up there at this point still and tell damaging lies about sean combs? that's a pretty risky thing to do. and what are you getting out of it? like, what is she getting out of it? i mean, i guess with cassie, you can make, you know, i'm sure they'll make the arguments that she's, i don't know, she got she got

money, but she already got money. >> that's how you see a payback. >> but what about time? >> but what about clark? >> so when it comes to the issue, right, of credibility, it's also about consistency. and if you look at her testimony, there were some inconsistencies with regard to what she said. it's important whether or not you were taken by gunpoint or you went voluntarily. those are two different things. if you told the prosecution one thing, it was by gunpoint, but yet you told attorneys you met with last year. well, i went there. why did i go there? because i wanted to protect him and things not going sideways. those are really major discrepancies there. the other issue is that. >> undermine the ability to show a predicate crime. >> absolutely. and so the fact is, is that and if you feel that you have an ax to grind now, then you might come in and say something that i'm going to stick it to you now. and so that to me is an underlying motivation. there was a time that you had the power, mr. diddy, but right now i have the power, and i'm going to let the jury know exactly what it was. it may not be true, but to the extent it sticks it to you and get you convicted, i feel vindicated.

>> you know, it's interesting when you're in that courtroom and you're watching that testimony and seeing what she's saying. it almost. i don't know if you felt this way, too. it almost felt like she was trying to, on the one hand, answer the questions, but also talking to diddy like she wanted him to know. i mean, he was she's been shut out. this is not somebody who's still in the good graces. she's begging for forgiveness. you know, you've forgiven everybody else, but why not me? the stakes are so much higher for me now. it was almost like she was explaining her affinity for him, her love for his professionalism, his. it was a business school for her to go to. she'd lost her parents. didn't you get that impression that she was, like, talking to him? still? >> i did, and i've gotten that impression from every former employee who testified. there seems to be a through line. first of all, that power dynamic, as joey said, has completely flipped, right? because when they worked for him, you diddy up here and everyone else is down here and now diddy is the defendant who is incarcerated right now, and they are telling their truth, or

they should be telling the truth. they're under oath. but the other thing is, every single former employee has had continued communication and they have all explained the reasons he's in power. i want to stay in his good graces. i need a job or, you know, i actually really learned a lot. and this is complicated. and i wonder, does that actually help the prosecution, even though the defense is saying, why are you in continued communication when you hear from every single person? it was complicated. i actually learned a lot from him. and yet all of these terrible things happened quickly. >> jeremy does it. >> it does. but i want to close with this right now is. >> just like a lawyer. >> i got to close with this. so. so when she finished up, she said that she was she meaning clark said about cassie. cassie is not whitney houston. she's not mariah carey. how do you think she got to where she is? she got there because she wanted to be there. she needed that and she couldn't have jay-z. so she got sean combs. there was reference to that in the part of me in the cross-examination. there's an agenda here. there's an end game here. she was there willingly, and that's

a risk she was willing to take to better her future. >> exactly how the defense opened the case, by the way, not the jay-z part, but everything else. stand by everyone. much more to get to tonight, including some potentially contentious testimony we expect to get tomorrow as the defense prepares to call into question a key element of kid cudi car bombing story. plus, he is nicknamed the punisher. if the male escort who told the jury about those alleged freak offs at the heart of the prosecution's case. and tonight, well, he's here in studio, ready to tell you what he saw and what it was like taking the stand next. >> a cnn special event on june 7th, a landmark television event for the first time ever, broadway goes live on television. george clooney and the five time tony nominated good night and good luck one night only live on cnn and streaming live on max. >> welcome to roland-garros. >> taking tennis to another stratosphere.

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>> well, his stage name the punisher to the jury. sharay hayes is his real name. and one of the few witnesses to give an uncensored look inside diddy freak offs in 2012, the exotic dancer allegedly received a call from a woman requesting a striptease for someone named janet, aka cassie ventura and her friends. hayes says he believes cassie found him through his get punished website. at their first meeting, hayes said cassie told him her and her husband liked to create a sexy scene, one that her husband would eventually come out to watch. during that first encounter, diddy allegedly gave mostly subtle directions. the compensation for that rendezvous, 2000 bucks. under cross-examination, hayes testified that cassie did not appear uncomfortable during their encounters. he, quote, did not get any cues that there was a discomfort with what was going on. over the 8 to 12 interactions, they all had, sharay hayes said. the punisher hayes joins me now, and he's also the author of in search of

freezer meat. he joins us now. welcome. it's been a week since you testified. first of all, i'm just wondering what the reaction has been like in your life knowing that this is such a high profile case. and here you are in the spotlight in this way? >> yeah, it's been like a whirlwind. you know, a constant outreach from media outlets like this and just friends and family, people from junior high school actually reaching out just randomly, you know, to check in and speak up. it's been a it's been very interesting trying week. >> you've reflected, i think, in some time about what your testimony said and what is like in that courtroom. can you tell me a little bit what it was like to be on that stand a few feet away from sean "diddy" combs, who you obviously had been around before in these sexual encounters, but he was more of a voyeur at those times. what was it like being in the room in the courtroom? >> yeah, so i have to say, i thought going into it, i was

pretty prepared and confident. but literally when i walked in the room, i, i got complete anxiety, like my entire body was shaking. whatever i envisioned or what i thought. because obviously you can't see anything. it was the the tension and the magnitude of the moment was much, much deeper. so it was it was to some degree terrifying. like, i just could not whatever i envisioned, it was just so much more that it was i was not mentally prepared. >> what were you afraid of? >> so my testimony which i wasn't sure how i was going to go it having that weight to be a deciding factor in such so impactful to so many people's lives with such a huge decision, just being involved in an impactful way was kind of, very intimidating. it's a lot to, to have. it's a big weight on your shoulders. >> did did he ever look at you during. >> your testimony? >> so i purposely, for almost a majority of the time, i avoided even looking in his direction. you know, obviously, i'm showing

up to testify for the prosecution, so. and who knows what i'm going to say, who knows what details i'm going to give. so i assumed there was going to be some sort of a negative tension, so i didn't even look for it. i just wanted to be at peace and be able to to give the testimony, give the facts of my involvement as clear headed as possible. so i avoided it to the very end. >> you know. >> i mentioned that he was a voyeur during the sexual encounters. you were involved with cassie ventura directly in those rooms, as you testified. were you ever involved with sean "diddy" combs? did you two ever have an interaction in those sexual encounters? >> no, actually, not one conversation. not even eye contact. really? yeah. >> did that surprise you? >> well, it was told to me immediately. like on the first encounter that i was instructed to not look at him, not acknowledge him, not have any interaction, interactions with. my cassie. yes. bye, cassie. so those were the instructions? so i did my best to follow him to

the best of my ability. because, you know, initially, i did not know who they were. and so i just saw it as an opportunity. i see this stunningly beautiful woman. and, you know, $2,000 for this type of interaction was, you know, kind of like a no brainer in terms of it. so i wanted to follow the directions as much as possible. so there was literally no interaction. no. i didn't even look directly at him. >> because normally you are. >> a dancer, and this was an interaction that would have resulted in sexual intercourse. >> exactly. so yeah. so this this is nuanced. it's not something that happens. you know, i've done thousands of parties. this is the only time i was propositioned with something like this. and it was in such magnitude, like we're in the trump hotel. it's like this. these huge suites. and you can tell this is a very high profile, couple. so, i just wanted to be as professional for the scenario as i would assume was required. >> did you ever travel.

>> outside of new york. >> with them? i did not. >> when you were engaged in this encounter and in intimate with cassie ventura, as you said on the stand, you you were asked about whether you had any notice or any idea how she felt about the interaction, whether she was consenting, whether she was uncomfortable in any way. you testified you did not feel as though she was uncomfortable at all. can you explain? >> yeah. so there was always like before the sexual activity. there was always like downtime. so i would be greeted by cassie, kind of put in a room, and we would have casual conversation. >> but how long did that last? >> ten, 15 minutes, you know, and it would be, you know, consistent. how's work going? how's the parties? how's things? so it seemed like a very cordial, laid back situation. and i actually believed that the scenario was real. it was like a birthday. this was something they were doing as a couple. that wasn't normal. i mean, that wasn't their norm. and i honestly thought i was the only

person they were engaging with. so i had almost a belief that i was, wow, like, this is a cool thing. like i'm the person they're choosing for this kind of fetish type of environment, and nothing. >> seemed illegal to you or anything out of sorts. >> not even close. like i didn't even get a any thought of anybody being like under the influence of any drugs or anything. it was, it seems like a very for the circumstance. everybody was just normally in their right state of mind, and this was just something they did for sexual pleasure. >> you never saw any violence? >> nothing close. >> you mentioned that you didn't realize that there had been anyone else involved. when did you realize that you were one of many, perhaps other people involved in these encounters? >> it was pretty much after things wrapped up and i decided to kind of confide in somebody that i worked with in the club. and it was like, shocking to me because i was like, hey, man, for a while i was being called and the guy was like, oh, yeah,

they called a bunch of guys. like, really? yeah. so it was kind of like it was a common rumor, a common knowledge for people that a person named mr. black would call. >> well, you said he. oh, he called you said a frank black, someone named frank black. >> yeah, yeah. so i'm getting this, like a casual conversation, like. yeah, that was an alias. they call under mr. black, and they. they have been hiring guys for some time. so i was like, wow, i and this was probably. 2000, 15, late 2015, 2016 when i decided to share it with somebody. and and so i found out way after the fact, it was kind of like a common thing. >> you know? interesting. you say you haven't seen any violence. you didn't see anyone under the influence of drugs, and you didn't have any idea that she was not consenting in some way. why do you think you were called to testify? >> i'm still trying to figure that out. like it's after the fact. i'm the only thing that i can kind of maybe think is, you know, there was directions,

right? it was. it was in my testimony. it was clear that it was him, i guess, somewhat in control. you know? not overbearingly i mean, it was said to me this scene we were creating was for her husband, aka him. so the only thing i can say is maybe they were trying to show another element of control. and even though in my case it wasn't forceful or aggressive, but it's still another dynamic that maybe they were trying to establish. >> did you ever see cameras or anything being filmed? >> i did not. the rooms were always extremely dim and dark. just candle. so it was, it was. if there were cameras, it would have to be some sort of infrared, low light scenario because it was very dark in there. >> who paid you? >> always gas. >> did you ever see where the money came from? >> i did, not only one time. like i said in my testimony, we were actually engaging in sexual activity, and he drew a stack of

hundred dollar bills on the bed. that, cassie turned to him and asked him was everything was fine. and he just said, i'm enjoying it. and so many words. and i know that money was collected after the fact and given to me. so that would be the only scenario where i guess money came directly from him by way of, you know, slamming it on the bed, like, almost like a how would somebody would do that? like a, like at a strip club. >> mm-hmm. how when you've affected black on your back, on your testimony, do you think that your testimony was helpful to the prosecution or the defense in any way. >> i mean, going into it, i always thought that because i saw no violence or any outward aggressive aggression, i always wondered if this was more beneficial to the defense. but i just i don't understand the angle of how they're trying to take my testimony and connect it to what what they're trying to prove. you know, it's very nuanced. what constitutes a rico in racketeering. and i just i

don't know enough yet. i haven't heard enough to see if my testimony aligns with what they're trying to prove. >> one thing that cassie said on the stand was that she wanted diddy to know that people were not disposable, and it almost sounded like she was talking collectively about everyone involved in these sexual encounters and the so-called freak offs. did you yourself ever feel as though you were either disposable, or that you yourself were being trafficked in some way, or prostituted? >> no, not trafficked in some way or whatever. there was always pressure in terms of being disposable, because obviously i'm there to create something like a scene to create an environment. so at times where there was sexual pressure, you know, because it's out of my norm, i did have a feeling of, okay, it's i'm one, you know, scenario where if i don't perform the right way, if i don't create the right ambiance, then maybe i won't get called back. but that's that's the most pressure that i had. there was no indication of of i really

believe they were just a happy couple. and this was a sexual fetish that they had. >> do you ever see them be affectionate during these freak offs together? >> i did not. they they would never actually interact in front of me. there was like kind of a cue where if he needed to speak to her or have some sort of direction with her, he would just stand up and leave the room. and if she saw that she would follow him out, they would be going five, ten minutes. then she'll come back and we'll resume for the most part, but no interaction in front of me. no even conversation other than his directions, which were subtle. move the light, turn your body. maybe put more oil. those type of, gestures in communication. >> you said you wanted to, after your testimony, feel at peace with what you've said, knowing what you do now about what cassie ventura has said, about how she felt about these freak offs. what would you say to her if you could?

>> i would apologize. i would apologize because i had no idea or no indication where she was going through. and if, you know, obviously my involvement kind of furthered her suffering, you know? so just me knowing that as a man, you know, being raised by a single mom and a grandma, you know, just the thought of partaking in a scenario where a woman is possibly being abused is tough to hear. so you know, i would just apologize to her and, you know, tell her i was really, remorseful and regret if i contributed to a bad experience for her. >> sharay hayes, thank you so much for joining. >> oh, thank you for having me. i appreciate it. >> still ahead, diddy's defense team notching a small but potentially important win. what a fire investigator will be allowed to say tomorrow on the stand. that could cause some problems for the prosecution's

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so-called car bombing of kid cudi car. joey, the defense wants the judge to throw out the testimony that kid cudi is saying, essentially, that he thinks diddy was lying about that fire bombing of the porsche. the judge could rule on it tomorrow. why does the defense want that out now? >> you're talking about the defense regarding the porsche and the fire bombing, et cetera. listen, from my perspective, when you're talking about a rico case, right? issues relating to arson, particularly when you're running a racketeering organization, are very important. and so, therefore, from a prosecution's perspective, i think it's compelling to connect the arson to what diddy did. at the same time, there's an indication that there's female prints, right, connected to the car and therefore wouldn't establish that diddy did it. >> by the way, that came up at one point during the director cross. excuse me, the cross of kid cudi. and there was objections. they didn't want it in there. there was any even intimation that it was not diddy's fingerprints. and they're going to call tomorrow.

jeremy an. l.a. fire department investigator, to testify about this alleged fire bombing. there's actually no physical evidence linking combs to it, as joey was talking about, as far as we know. and no one's been charged in this. so is it odd to you that this would be maybe a predicate crime? >> it's not necessarily odd to me because you can establish it through other means. not every not every predicate crime has to be a conviction where someone is sentenced to prison and you're the bad guy. but what's something that has to be done is the prosecution has to get out in front of it. because to what you just said moments ago is that there are there is no dna of of combs or even a man is suspected dna of a woman. so all of a sudden we hear this story and these, these repeated stories going back to capricorn about how she was was it at gunpoint or were there guns present? was what did she tell cuddy about the gun, or did she not tell cuddy about the gun? now we have fire bombing. could someone else not have liked cuddy? is this a predicate act? well, you know what? we got a female prince. was it cassie? who knows? there could be a lot of different things, but you got to keep on peppering in that. that reasonable doubt and

throwing wrenches in that story. >> they're going to plant that seed. they're going to water that seed. they're going to try to watch it grow. you know that, mimi. there's also we know now that a third victim is not going to testify in this matter. the prosecutor said they've had a hard time locating her after the jury selection, which, of course, i'm like, you had a hard time locating the. okay, but that's. >> could mean a lot. >> could mean a lot of. >> things mean that she just doesn't want to testify. >> it could mean that. >> it's confusing. and, you know. >> another seed they're going to plant and try to grow. if you're the defense saying, oh, where is this witness? where is this victim? but they are gog to hear from another alleged victim that goes by the name of mia. that's what they're calling her. it's a pseudonym, of course. this person was a personal assistant to diddy, and they say that he sexually assaulted her as well. how critical is this person's testimony given you've already heard from cassie ventura? >> i think it's pretty critical in the sense that it would be enough if there were one victim, if it were just cassie. and so i think as a matter of law they

don't need to prove coercion or sex trafficking as to this victim, but it makes it a it makes it harder for the defense that they're arguing here. oh, this was just this tumultuous relationship between the two of them to stand up. right. so it it it one sort of puts an arrow in that defense because now there's another person allegedly involved in this kind of conduct. and two, it just gives the jury this impression of victims instead of victim. and again, one victim is more than enough, both legally. and, you know, from a sympathy point of view. >> but does it matter that she has a. pseudonym? >> bad. >> does it matter to the jury, you think the jury, the jury was instructed getting the trial, that they will have a pseudonym and not to give any greater or less weight as a result? >> i mean, i think if anything, it kind of gives her an added sympathy, makes it seem like there's something she's afraid

of still why? you know, why can't she use her real name? why won't she use her real name? was she underage at the time? is she afraid of him still? so it's it's it's kind of an added layer of of fear. >> but from the defense, it's another woman making another accusation that has not been founded, that he has not been charged with. it's another money grab with the other countless ones. now, you mean no. >> known rape charge? >> that's what i'm referring to, right? in terms of a separate crime that predates that he's been charged with, it's one after the next, it's one after the next. and at some point, it's a bunch of disgruntled employees who have an angle, who want either want money or revenge, and they're sick of his garbage. because, you know what? if you believe the testimony, he's a bad dude, and he deserves to be punished. >> yeah, but but the other issue briefly is that there's a pattern, right? or there's not a pattern. and remember, there are multiple counts. and so some of the victims go to some counts of sex trafficking. the other goes to the other. and it's always about quality of the testimony not the quantity. but in this particular situation where you're missing a

potential victim who could have given explosive testimony, not only would it go to a sex trafficking independent count, but it would corroborate the cassie count. this is who he is. this is what this guy does. so the absence of that witness becomes, in my view, problematic. >> thank you so much, everyone. there's still a lot more to unpack. don't worry. this trial is still ongoing. you can hear much more of our trial coverage on my new cnn podcast, trial by jury. listen to it on cnn.com or wherever you get your podcasts. up next tonight, an all out manhunt underway for the one they call the devil of the ozarks. he's a former police chief convicted of murder who is now running free after a shocking escape from prison. so how did he do it? and how dangerous is he? the prosecutor who originally locked him up will join me next. >> george clooney in broadway's good night and good luck. live june 7th on cnn. >> do you like saving money? don't. don't answer that. it's a rhetorical question. who

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serving 30 years for first degree murder, 50 years for rape. except tonight, he's on the loose. a manhunt now underway for the man that you are looking at right now. 56 year old grant hardin. police say that he broke out of the high security calico rock prison in arkansas on sunday afternoon. he'd been locked up there since 2017. so how did he do it? well, the arkansas department of corrections says that he was quote, wearing a makeshift outfit designed to mimic law enforcement policing. the photo you're looking at right now. now, they say it shows harden escaping through a secure gate while wheeling a cart with a box and pieces of wood. law enforcement across the state now putting out this wanted poster describing harden as, quote, extremely dangerous. joining me now is nathan smith. now he is the former prosecutor for benton county, arkansas, who prosecuted both the murder and rape cases

against harden. nathan, welcome. thank you for joining. what an unbelievable story we're following here. what was your first reaction when you heard the man you prosecuted? harden had escaped. >> laura, thank you for having me. i appreciate you covering this story. hopefully the publicity of it will make it easier for law enforcement to capture him. grant hardin, as they've said, is a very dangerous man. when i heard about it, it was shocking. my reaction honestly went to the victims and their families having to relive all of this because, as you know, part of the the goal of the justice system is to bring some measure of closure to victims and their families. and so the folks in this case expected that these these dispositions in his cases would be the end of it. and so my heart really goes out to them. and dealing with this. >> it must be very triggering, very scary, unnerving for all the reasons you described for that families, the families to know that this person is on the loose. you said he's very

dangerous. can you describe his personality to us? >> yeah. well, the troubling thing about grant hardin, when you look at his crimes, you know, many times, even though every murder is a heinous and vile act, sometimes you can look back and and understand what a person was thinking, why they might have done it. prosecutors, as you know, don't have to prove motive. but we always want to know, in his cases, the answers for why he committed not only the murder, but obviously the rape in 1997 really are very unclear in terms of justifying both of those acts. and so you're looking at a at a person who, in my opinion, never really expressed remorse. and the reasons for him doing what he did were never clear. and at the same time, you have this being a person who raised his hand and took an oath to protect and to serve and betrayed public trust as well. >> what you describe is so terrifying. there's something i know as a prosecutor that can be perhaps comforting, if lack of a better word to the victims and the community. if you have some

reason, maybe you feel safe for yourself. if you feel as though that reason will not apply to you, but the randomness of it, what you describe is just is really, really shocking and terrifying. knowing that he's out right now. are you worried for, well, your safety or the families? >> well, i don't think anyone should live in fear. i do think that we all should be alert and vigilant. my hope is that with all the coverage this is getting, that people will have more knowledge of him, be on the lookout more and hopefully be a force multiplier for law enforcement. and so that's really my my hope for for this, for this coverage because it's, it's critically important that people be aware of it and that law enforcement has all the support they can have in trying to apprehend him. >> we're showing his face right now. and of course, we encourage anyone who has any insight or information to contact law enforcement. this was something that was obviously planned, maybe not for a long period of time, but this did take some

level of effort and foresight for him to be able to mastermind this kind of escape on his own. did he strike you as the type of person who would be able to perform this alone? >> you know, it's hard to speculate as to whether it could have been alone or with the aid of someone else. at this point, we just don't know. i will say for mr. harden, you've got a person who committed a a violent and heinous act in 1997. and at least in terms of recorded crimes, we know he went more than 20 years before committing the murder of mr. appleton. and that whole time he had on and off employment as a law enforcement officer. so you've got someone who clearly is has the ability to compartmentalize that sort of heinous evil in his psyche. so that's very troubling. i agree with the statements that the department of corrections has put out that he is a dangerous man. again, people shouldn't live in fear, but they should be vigilant. >> nathan smith, thank you so

much. we'll keep watching. >> thank you for having me. appreciate it. >> and of course, thank all of you for watching. anderson cooper 360 is next. >> how should i wash my dress? >> you should use a. >> delicate cold cycle. >> okay. >> do i just put it in? remember to turn it inside out to protect the sequins. can i put it in a dryer? the icon on the tag says no. oh, thank goodness i asked. you just saved date night.

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