tv Piers Morgan Tonight CNN December 14, 2011 12:00am-1:00am EST
>> yes, i think we should stop buying their product pretty much now. >> russell simmons, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> russell simmons, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> and on that note, here's "piers morgan tonight." >> tonight courtroom shocker. disgraced penn state coach jerry sandusky ducks his accusers in court and says he's not guilty of child rape charges. >> this is a fight to the death. this the fight of jerry sandusky's life. >> i'll ask one of his lawyers why the ex-coach didn't face his accusers today. plus people with their day in court. another sports scandal. >> coming forward was one of the hardest things i've had to do in my life. >> my exclusive interview with two men who say that syracuse's coach abused them when they were children. their blockbuster lawsuit against the school. >> i want to help children to have the courage to tell adults if they're sexually abused. also battle for the heart and soul of the gop.
newt gingrich calls for a positive campaign. is that really any way to win an election? i'll ask two men who are no strangers to the rough and tumble of the trail howard dean and tom ridge. this is "piers morgan tonight." good evening. a dramatic day in a pennsylvania courtroom. jerry sandusky, the former penn state football coach who is charged with child sexual abuse was expected to come face-to-face with his accusers. then at the last minute sandusky dramatically waived his right to a hearing leaving the packed courtroom in shock. he's under house arrest tonight and not due back in court until his trial begins sometime next year about. joining me now is jerry sandusky's defense counsel carl rominger. almost unprecedented certainly in pennsylvania. the big question everyone is asking, why did you waive jerry sandusky's rights to have this hearing today? >> unprecedented in large cases, normal in almost everyday cases, i have to point that out. but the biggest issue here was what we got in exchange for the waiver.
what we got was an assurance that the bail would not be moved no matter what happens. so basically the commonwealth gave up their ability to raise the bail even if they bring new charges. we don't believe there's anything in the pike right now. but they had hinted that was a possibility. they also conceded to give us discovery early. in pennsylvania we get no discovery at the time of the preliminary hearing. other states you get extensive discovery at this stage. that was important to begin digesting it. >> the key thing about pennsylvania's process, which is seen as advantageous to a defense team is you get to see potential witnesses against you and you get to examine them, see how credible they are and perhaps use their evidence in these prehearings in the real trial to show contradiction. and eye limb nature them as witnesses. you've taken a big gamble, haven't you, in removing your client's right to have all that. >> we have. but it was a close call.
and joe amendola, who is the primary attorney, made that call in conjunction with the client. and they chose it in consultation with me briefly, but they chose it between them. i don't disagree with their decision to take the certainty and give up -- because we do have extensive information that we've developed on our own. we've interviewed some of these witnesses through the defense investigator. we have already seen that mcqueary's testimony is falling apart. he's basically said by the grand jury to be an incredibly credible witness and has now turned out to be discredible. so with all that in mind, we sort of made a meeting of the mindses with the prosecutors that we wouldn't have made if they hadn't made the concessions on future bail issues. >> of course, the cynic would say that the reason you've done this is 11 people were going to take the stand today and potentially tomorrow and make a series of horrendous allegations against your client including child rape. many of those would have been people who were very young at
the time they say these accusers -- and i say they are accusers, it's not been proven -- that jerry sandusky committed appalling crimes on them. two days of that, and your ability to do any kind of plea bargain down the line could well have been eliminated by furious public opinion. >> there is an argument in that case. i can tell you, however, there's been no exchange of information for a plea bargain. there is no discussion of a plea bargain. and frankly, given jerry's advanced age, i doubt that the commonwealth would offer a plea that he would find palatable. a case that's probably headed to trial anyhow. that said, i can see why people would think that, but i would say again we will get the grand jury transcripts eventually which will give us their sworn statements. so what we lost at the preliminary hearing stage, we will get their sworn statements eventually. >> i want to play you a clip from an interview that jerry sandusky did on nbc's rock center and talk to you after this.
>> okay. >> are you a pedophile? >> no. >> are you sexually attracted to young boy, to underaged boys? >> am i sexually attracted to underaged boys? >> yes. >> sexually attracted, no. i enjoy young people. i love to be around them. i -- i -- but no, i'm not sexually attracted to young boys. >> i mean, that to any impartial observer was quite an extraordinary exchange. the simple answer to that question for most people is no, yet it took your client a considerable length of time to even work out whether it was yes or no. i mean, do you see to, again, an impartial observer just how awful that sounded? >> taken in a vacuum, i can't disagree with you. the problem is you have to meet jerry, sit down at his kitchen table like i did and talk to him for an hour and you'll realize that's how he answers all his
question. i know that sounds trite of me to say it. but that's how the man talks. he did get to the absolute answer of no. but i think it's very important to remember that it's unfair because many guilty people who sound very convincing often convince prosecutors and jurors of their innocence. and people who are innocent but not articulate get the short end of that stick. so keep that in mind as you go forward that that's how that man communicates and how he processes information. >> but tell me this, when you hear a man of jerry sandusky's age talking about having horseplay with naked 10, 11, 12-year-old boys in showers, don't you think to yourself this is very, very strange behavior for a man of that age? >> i do think it's strange behavior for a man of that age. and by his chronological age, i agree. by his mental or emotional maturity, that's a separate question.
a lot of psychologists tell me that there's a distinction between a person's chronological age and where they may be mentally. some people are stunted at a young age. i think if you met jerry, again you would see that he has a very juvenile affect, and i believe mentally and emotionally, he's much more on par with a teenager than he is a 60-year-old. >> finally, mr. rominger, it's the position of the defense that every single one of these people who's come forward and made allegations against jerry sandusky is a fantasist? >> i don't know the answer to that because is it a fantasy, is it a mistake, is it a misstatement, is it an embellishment? where that lies, i don't know because i don't know what each of those people have said. i oath have what the grand jury put down. and the grand jury found mcqueary highly credible. now we know he didn't say those things to people. does some prosecutor think these ten people will say these
things? yes. will they say them in a court later? i don't know. but i know we already have some contradictsry evidence and statements from one of the accusers as well that's contradictory to what they told the grand jury. if that's, in fact, what they told the grand jury. i need to see the transcripts because the synopsis just does not adequately tell us what we have to defend nor does it line up with what mr. mcqueary has told other people. you can see chinks in the armor of presentment. there's no cross-examination in that presentment, there's no fair process. so no, are they all fantasies? i don't know what the ten people are going to say. until i know that, then i'll get back to you on that. >> okay. well, clearly part of the strategy is to put jerry sandusky out there to the media. if he wants to come on this show for the hour and talk through this and show us a side of his character that you say is unusual and more enlightening perhaps than the portrayal that
we have of him, then we'd be very welcome to have him as a guest. >> i'll talk with joe because he's the chief attorney in this situation, but i would certainly encourage it. >> okay. karl rominger, thank you very much indeed. >> thank you, sir, thank you very much. how strong is the case against jerry sandusky? i want to talk to the chief of the sex crimes unit in the manhattan district attorney's office and she's the vice president at tnn protection resources where she handles sexual misconduct investigations. also mike eiglarsk, a criminal defense attorney. lisa, what did you make of that exchange with the defense counsel, because it is almost unprecedented in a case of this high profile in pennsylvania that a defense counsel team would simply renounce their right to what is usually seen as a very, very advantageous thing to do, which is to have a prehearing to get at the witnesses and see what they're
made of. >> i have to say in short, i don't buy his attorney's explanation for why they decided to waive the preliminary hearing. he says that in are two reasons, one, they're going to get early discovery. keep in mind, all they're getting are things they're legally entitled to. they're just getting them a little earlier. the prosecution is going to turn around and go, judge, we want an earlier trial date because they got this discovery earlier. i don't see that as a big advantage to the defense. they talked about the bail situation. perhaps the prosecution said if you waive the preliminary hearing we won't ask for an increase in bail based on what we know, and what's in the pipeline now. but as a former prosecutor i can't believe that they bound themes to never ask for another bail increase. what if other victims come forward? what if other victims come forward with horrendous charges against him? it's impossible for me to believe that the prosecution said no matter what happens in the future we won't move to raise his bail. i don't think they got that much out of it.
what did they give up? you pointed it out. they gave up significant things 37 they gave up getting to see these witnesses live and see how they testify, gave up how to cross-examine them and see how they can move them on cross-examination. and they gave up creating a whole other record that they can cross-examine them with at trial. so i think they gave up significant things. why do i think they really gave all that up? i think they realize that if they put all these victims through this, that as much as they're not mr. sandusky may be hated now by the public, if he makes all those victims testify in this preliminary hearing when he has the ability to waive it, he was really going to be hated even more. and i think the other thing, too, if you think about it is if each of these witnesses testified, all the media would have been covering the detail of their testimony again, just as they did when the grand jury report came out. now, that's kind of died down
now, but if they testify in this hearing today and tomorrow, all that coverage of the details of what they say happened to them is going to be out in the media again. i think they decided that those two things were not going forward for. >> let me turn to mark eiglarsh. you've been a criminal defense attorney, you've been a former prosecuto prosecutor. from the prosecutor's point of view, what would they be thinking? put yourself in their shoes. >> well, my understanding is that they did expect it a day before. according to the defense lawyer there were meaningful discussions that took place the day before. the only reason why the victims were present in court is because sandusky could always change his mind. prosecutors wanted to have them there, which is typically done. let's understand something very clearly. the only reason why the hearing was canceled by sandusky is because sandusky believed that it benefited sandusky. so in his mind, maybe through
the support of his attorneys, the thought is that a better plea bargain, one that he could live with, can be reached at some point. i disagree with defense counsel when he suggests that it's definitely not going to happen. i think in all cases generically, even ones like this where you have some victims reluctant to testify, there will always be plea bargain discussions. had they gone forward with the hearing, that would have been a declaration of war on a case that they know only david copperfield can win. >> how important, lisa, let me come back to you here -- is the testimony of mike mcqueary? because clearly to start with, it seemed absolutely vital. his grand jury testimony seemed to be very credible. but there is a point that defense counsel made there which is that slowly but surely a lot of what he's been saying is on the face of it slightly contradictory. >> it's certainly extremely important to the counts that involve that victim that he witnessed the incident occurring
with the crimes occurring with. but you're right, it goes beyond that because it gives credence to what the other victims say happened, that an adult watched that happen. i've heard some of the inconsistent statements that mr. mcqueary is said to have made. they will certainly hurt him at the trial. but i still have to pose the central question that the prosecutor is going to say, what motive did mr. mcqueary have to say he saw a jerry sandusky committing this crime, that he saw it with his own eyes, what motive did he have to say that to the prosecution and the police when he said it? he was still working at penn state. he had a great job there. it's not like he's fired and he has some reason to hurt penn state or hurt jerry sandusky. i don't see any motive for him to perjure himself under oath. >> that's a very good point. let me bring mark back in there.
if you were prosecuting this, given the sheer amount of allegations and the people making them, would you be confident of some form of conviction here? >> absolutely. if there was just one and you've just got mcqueary, like anybody that could be cross-examined and impeached, maybe i'd find, look, it's a tough case. when you've got this many and the volume and the detail and the fact that mcqueary doesn't really have a motive to lie, he kept it quiet, talked to the higher-ups, they didn't do anything. and he continued to golf with sandusky. it didn't look like there's any apparent motive that the defense has. so they definitely have challenges, the defense does, the prosecution feels confident about a conviction. it's up to the defense to try to convince them that this case isn't a slam dunk so maybe you want to get a certainty of him admitting his guilt by offering maybe, five, six, seven so maybe he can get out while he's still alive. >> never going to happen.
>> i disagree with you. >> we will wait and see. thank you both very much indeed. >> you're welcome. >> thanks, piers. when we come back, another explosive college sports scandal. my exclusive interview with two men who say a syracuse university basketball coach abused them when they were children. and their block bust her lawsuit today against the school. welcome to idaho,
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dramatic new accusations of child sexual abuse at syracuse university. two men say an assistant basketball coach sexually abused them. they're now sue iing the univery for defamation after they were accused of lying. joining me is bobby darch and michael lang and their attorney gloria allred. thank you very much indeed, all three of you, but both gentlemen for coming forward here. a courageous thing to do, not an easy thing to do. let me ask you first, bobby, why have you done this? >> i believe i'm coming forth to help children, to give them the courage to talk.
you know, because i was afraid all my life to talk about this, and i need to stand up for myself and let people know that it's okay to talk about this and bring awareness to this. i just believe that we can't allow things to go the way they did. there needs to be change. i believe the way to do that is by speaking up. and we can't allow people and institutions to handle this the way they did. in regards to why -- what boeheim said, coach boeheim, it hurt very much. that's why we're filing this lawsuit because the damage he did to us and what he said and calling us liars is very hurtful. and i just believe he needs to be held accountable and the way the university handled it also needs to be held accountable. and i just believe the way boeheim went about it was totally wrong.
we need to do something about it. we need to create some change. and he really -- >> let me -- bobby, let me jump in there. obviously bernie fine has denied all the allegations. we must make that clear. let me turn to you, mike. what was the nature of the abuse that you went through. in simple terms describe what he did to you or what you say he did to you? >> he touched me in the wrong way and made me feel that i was -- like i was -- i don't know. he just made me feel angry around him. and i just -- the way he kept touching me and you'd tell him not to touch you and he'd still do it again. he just wouldn't be -- you couldn't be told no. and you felt bad telling him no because he was like a god to you. >> that's a very interesting point you make there. bobby, let me turn back to you. was the real problem here, as it seems to have been at penn state
as well, that these kind of coaches at college level in america are put on to this kind of god-like plinth, they're almost untouchable, and they start to believe they're untouchable? >> that is true. they are built up so much in the community, and people -- you know, they have this aura about them. and they're just pretty much think they're untouchable and think they're god-like in a sense. and that's how we look at them in a sense. and it's very hard to get away from it, very hard to tell this person no for the things that the person who he is and the things that he could do for you. and it was very hard situation to be in. and it's hard to explain how much it hurts and how much you went through. but the position they're in, they have a power and authority to be able to manipulate little kids, and that's why we're
trying to talk about this to bring awareness, so they won't be able to do this any more. >> let me play you, bobby, part of a recording of a phone conversation that you had with bernie fine's wife laurie in 2002. and we'll talk about it after this. >> i said to him, you know, bobby and i talked and i know some things about you that if you keep pushing you are going to be let out. >> that's what i'm saying. >> beautiful, let him go ahead. >> he doesn't think he can be touched like -- >> he thinks he's above the law. >> there you have it from the horse's mouth, i mean, his wife basically conceding that his husband thought he was above the law and appearing to seriously implicate him in what was going on with you. when you -- why did you make that tape? let's start with that. >> well, first, i went to the
police, and i had a short conversation with them. they basically told me that the statute of limitations ran out. so i then went to the local newspaper and a reporter came out and interviewed me and everything, talked to me. and i told him what happened. and he gave me the suggestion -- first i asked him do you know anybody that knows for sure. i said his wife, she seen what happened. what he was doing to me, she saw it through a basement window, him grabbing me, going down my pants and grabbing my penis. and she -- i said, she definitely knows. she told me she saw it. he goes, what about you calling her and talking to her about it? i said okay. we talked about it before and how she seen it. so it was kind of easy to do. and i pretty much knew she would talk about it because we talked about it many times. she's very open about it with me. and she would always tell me, be a man, step up and tell him to stop. i would tell him to stop and
hope it would the next day, but it would always keep happening. no matter what. he would always keep coming back and try to do it again and again and again. >> well, bobby, let's take a short break. i mean, i suppose the obvious question is why is she telling you to tell him to stop, why didn't she tell her own husband to stop? let's talk about this more after the break. i'll ask gloria why the legal action against the university. what you hope to achieve by this. and what you feel about the statute of limitations implication in this. whether it's too late. weather there should ever be limitations on this kind of action. your new progresso rich & hearty steak burger soup. [ dad ] i love this new soup. it's his two favorite things in one... burgers and soup. did you hear him honey? burgers and soup. love you. they're cute. [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup.
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i was afraid to go out in the public for fear of being labeled a liar who caused the university problems. i want to help children -- i want to help children who have the courage to tell adults, their families, their teachers, their coaches and the police if they're sexually abused. >> bobby dave us today from an emotional moment from a press conference. he's back with us and mike lange and gloria allred. gloria, let me turn to you about what is going on legally. today you launched on behalf of
these two men a lawsuit against -- not against the man that they're accusing of the abuse, but his effective boss, which is jim boeheim. explain to me what you're up to here. why go after him? >> well, piers, because coach boeheim was the coach and is the coach of the syracuse men's basketball team. and he made these statements. these false, injurious and inflammatory allegations about mike lang and bobby davis, calling them liars, saying that they're essentially motivated by money. those statements were completely false. they've really harmed the reputation of both of them. and especially to call bobby davis a liar, that's really accusing him of a crime. because bobby davis reported this allegation of child molestation to the police, and to make a false statement to the police is a crime in the state of new york. so -- >> gloria, let me just -- >> have the power and the prestige of syracuse university making these statements at the dome after a basketball game is
held brings in the university because under the legal concept of respondi a superior -- he's acting as an agent, as a spokesperson -- >> i got that. let me read to you what he said on december the 2nd, i shouldn't question what the accusers expressed or their motives. i'm really sorry i did that. i regret any harm that i caused. does that apology make any difference to you? >> too little too late, piers. and the damage has been done. because what he said has been carried by nationwide media. and it not only has an impact on mike and on bobby, but what about other persons who are child victims of sexual abuse? doesn't it send them a message that if they dare to speak up and tell the authorities, the please, their coach or the university or their school, that they have been the victims of child molestation, that they're going to be having their worst
fears realized? that they're going to be attacked by adults publicly and called liars. we simply cannot allow this. the university needs to be accountable for what the coach said. and we are within the statute of limitations to bring this lawsuit and we have brought it. >> obviously, bernie fine has said that, you know, again, he's not been charged with anything, he denies any wrong doing. he says the allegations are patently false in any aspect. in relation to the crimes he may have committed against your clients, the statute of limitations does apply, doesn't it? what do you think of that >> the statute of limitations does apply in new york to bar mike and bobby from any criminal case prosecution of mr. fine. in addition, they are unable because of the statute of limitations in new york to file a civil lawsuit against mr. fine. it's time barred. however, the legislature in the state of new york could change the law and make the law in new
york similar to what it is in other states. in other words, it can extend the statute of limitations or it could open up a window of one year, as california did, wherein others who are time barred but are victims of child molestation would have an opportunity to file a civil lawsuit and prove their claims. that's important, piers, because often victims don't want to speak out. they are afraid to speak out. and sometimes they're even living in denial until they come to terms with it years later and discover that their injuries are, in fact, caused by the child molestation that they suffered. so, yes, we're going to be there in the legislature in new york, if legislators asked for our assistance to help change the law to be more protective of victims. >> all right. let me bring back in the two gentlemen and talk to you, mike lang. do you think that jim boeheim,
given what he's said about you guys, do you think he should be fired? >> that's not for me to say. i certainly hope not. but he did a lot of damage by calling us liars when he didn't know the facts. >> yeah, i mean, bobby, he's the coach of the number one rated team at the moment. do you think this has come into play here? do you think this goes back to that sense of they're just too powerful to touch these guys? >> i think they do feel like that in a sense. you know, these coaches, their egos fed for so long, and they just don't believe they can be touched. and what boeheim's comments, what he said really had effect on not just me and other victims, he just didn't understand -- i mean, he really hurt us. i wish one day he could be in my shoes one day and feel the pain that i felt all those years that bernie did to me. then he'd understand and be able to feel that pain. and he had a profound effect on what he said to me and to
potential other victims that may want to come forward. he could have hurt the case overall. >> okay. bobby davis, michael lang, gloria allred, thank you all very much. >> thank you. >> newt gingrich is asking his supporters to play nice, but is that way to win a presidential pain. coming up, two men who know exactly how the campaign trail works, tom ridge and howard dean. i habe a cohd. yeah, i toog nyguil bud i'm stild stubbed up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't un-stuff your nose. really? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus liquid gels fights your worst cold symptoms, plus it relieves your stuffy nose. [ deep breath ] thank you! that's the cold truth! thank you! fore! no matter what small business you are in, managing expenses seems to... get in the way. not anymore. ink, the small business card from chase introduces jot
the real difference i believe is our backgrounds. i spent my life in the private sector. i understand how the economy works. >> let's be candid. the only reason you didn't back career politician is you lost to teddy kennedy in 1994. >> the newt gingrich and mitt romney locking horns in saturday's republican presidential debate on abc. is that the inevitable sign of things to come in the hard fought campaign. joining me now are two men who have done their fair share of tough campaigning, tom ridge and howard dean. the former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee. gentlemen, welcome. i had rudy giuliani on yesterday who was strongly suggesting that newt gingrich may have a better chance at beating president obama. you yourself have suggested that
jon huntsman shouldn't be overlooked and is still your preferred choice. what do you make of the way this race is now unraveling as we head toward iowa? >> i appreciate the fact that you indicated to your audience that i'm not terribly objective. i think that jon huntsman is the best and most electable candidate, and the one with the best economic plan according to "the wall street journal." frankly, i think at the end of the next three or four primaries, we may actually have three or four different winners as the things set up themselves in new hampshire, first of all, in iowa, new hampshire, then south carolina and florida. i think governor huntsman's going to play well in the latter three. but frankly, nobody bumps their head above 30% in any of those four races. piers, this thing could go on all the way to the convention. fasten your seat belts. it should be a very interesting campaign season. >> it certainly could. and i agree with you about jon huntsman.
i'm amazed that he doesn't get better traction than he's been getting. he's a very impressive guy to meet and interview. his credentials speak author themselves. howard dean, who would you rather president obama face when push comes to shove? >> first of all, i like jon huntsman, too, which probably isn't going to do jon huntsman good with the republican party. >> he wouldn't want to hear that. >> i agree with tom, i think for the sake of the country and obama/huntsman race would be good for the country. you'd have two very capable candidates. i've never seen anything like this on the republican side in my career in politics. usually they're much better organized. this is a real brawl. i will say, it's fascinating, the debates are fascinating. the last debate, the front-runner which has alternated between perry, bachmann, cain and so fort and so on, this time with gingrich, you've got a real debater. this is the fight that i think will probably go all the way and could go to the convention, which is a stunning thing to ever think about the republican primary going to the convention.
usually that's over by florida. that's the conventional wisdom we've always had about the republicans. i think this time it may go further. >> yeah, i mean, governor ridge, the reason for that is the way that they have set this up and the theory is that the republicans have done this deliberately having watched the way the obama/hillary clinton battle played out. all it meant was for most of the year until midsummer, all the american public was being presented with was a choice in their heads of obama or clinton and the president was left out of the mix. >> the present list of candidates is literally the staying power of most of them. as you see and as i said before, there's not a poll that i think reflects anyone with a serious or insurmountable lead in any particular primary, which means that from my point of view, it is still virtually undecided. and some of the more interesting poll numbers suggest that
although people have expressed preferences in many of the polls, 70% or 80%, even though they've expressed a preference have said that we're not 100% certain that we're going to back that particular candidate. that's one of the reasons that i think jon huntsman will show and demonstrate far more traction after new hampshire than the other candidate. he's got the broad appeal, he is the most conservative candidate. he has great credentials as a governor. if you've been in the trade office or ambassador to singapore, you think about china, he speaks mandarin, been ambassador over there and you take a look at what our challenges are and opportunities from an economic point of view, it's from that point of the view. at the end of the day, a hotly contested primary season. i think this baby's going to go on for quite some time. >> yeah, and governor dean, you've been a front-runner and, you know, i don't want to be too harsh about it, but self-imploded in a rather memorable way. how do the front-runners like newt gingrich now, he's a player, he's been around the
block, he knows how it works. how does he avoid the banana skin? >> first of all, i wouldn't say i self-imploded. i made a lot of mistakes, but the tape you're showing, most people would agree, that was media malpractice, which is certainly not uncommon. but i know what these guys are going to go through, both romney and gingrich at the hands of both the media and of each other. i've been through it myself. it's very, very tough. my view about this is, look, if you think it's tough to deal with the american media who doesn't really do their job terribly well or the other candidates who gang up on you, what are you going to do when you face across the table is vladimir putin? it's a tough process. i think it's good for it to be a tough process. this is the toughest job in the world. as gary hart said to me, no wimp ever got elected president of the united states and i think that's a good thing. but these guys are going to go through a very tough time over the next few weeks.
>> governor dean, when we had david axelrod saying this yesterday, just remember the higher a monkey climbs on a pole, the more you see his butt, which he was talking about newt gingrich. >> that sounds like james carville, not david axelrod. >> chief guru. what did you make of that comment? >> well, i thought it was very colorful, that's for sure. as i said before, hearing james carville not so much david axelrod. but look, the media has a natural tendency to want to focus on the person that's on top. and they do, they build him up and they take him down. that's just part of the cycle. you know, it's tough. but again you have to have a very tough process for nominating the person who is going to be one of the two people who will contend for the toughest job in the world. so it's a very tough process. it's distasteful to a lot of americans, but it is a very tough process and you got to be able to withstand it. >> we'll have a short break. when we come back, we'll talk to you both about your views on
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he didn't take any of them. he asked nicely for them to give it back, and they're not going to do that. >> here to talk about that discussion tom ridge and howard dean. i have to ask you, about the tweet that's just come in to me, which says, you guys are always banging on about gingrich, romney and huntsman, what about ron paul? he may win in iowa? >> it could very well happen. one thing i've known about ron paul. he's been a consistent individual. his support is very strong. he's playing well, and one of the reasons he plays well, he's consistent. that's one of the reasons i like jon huntsman, what he says on monday he says on friday. and on both occasions he means the same thing. >> let's turn to iran. dick cheney doing his usual
position on this kind of thing. no holding back, did he have a point do you think? should america allow this drone with all the technology to be sitting there? >> that's what's allowed us to go into iraq. i'm glad we're living iraq, i didn't think we should have gone there in the first place. but we're leaving a mess behind. we're leaving a prime minister who's participated in war crimes,being investigated for that. we have 3400 unarmed iranian dissidents, who the united states promised we would keep out of harm's way, who are likely to be massacred, when we leave. i think this is a very messy withdrawal, i'm delighted we're leaving, but i don't think the american people are going to be very happy when they see what we've left behind. >> one of the challenges -- >> i was going to ask you specifically about camp ashrab. this is an area in iraq that is
full of iranians who are supporting the opposition party in iran, and are being severely mistreated. what can you tell me about that? >> well, the 3400 men and women at camp ashrab, surrendered their means of self-protection to the united states army in 2003 and 2004. when i say that, they are a democrat resistance group, they've been a thorn in ahmadinejad's side for a long, long time. they surrendered tanks and artillery pieces, thousands and thousands of weapons, small weapons to defend themselves. we need the united states government -- the united states government promised individually every one of them after they were vetted, after we determined they were not terrorists -- and by the way, since that time, the united kingdom, the european union and a court in washington, d.c., concluded they were not terrorists, we promised to
provide for their protection, their security and safety. it was fine until we withdrew. since that time, the iraqi government, under the direction of the prime minister, malaki, with a strong, vocal public support of the iranian regime has attacked that camp twice, killed over 40 people, wounded hundreds and they have set a date that they're going to close that camp at the end of this month, ironically or coincidentally, the date our last soldiers could be withdrawn, and then they're going to relocate them. let me tell you this, howard and i agree, this is a precursor to relocation. there's a precursor to a human rights again side, the likes of which we haven't seen in a long time. they will relocate them in iran. a third of them are dissidents, 25% of them are women, and it's a -- this administration, unfortunately, for whatever reason, has chosen to ignore that plight. it's our integrity, it's our
word, it's our bond, it's our credibility. and we ignore it. >> the fbi screened all these people. the fbi counter terrorist folks screened all these people in 2006, not one of them is a terrorist, according to our fbi. this is outrageous what's going on. it's an outrageous behavior by the state department and frankly, the administration has direct responsibility for making sure the promises were kept. we kept one promise. we kept george bush's promise to get out by the end of 2011. we need to keep the promise toe the people of ashrab. we need to not be complicit in human rights massacres. >> just so finish that off, there is a sense that the president is being not weak, but certainly not that strong with iran, holding back a bit, we've seen the incident with the drone, we see what's happening with this camp. >> i think that's unfair. we don't know. it's also possible that we might have had something to do with blowing up the solid fuel
facilities, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. i'm not willing to give anybody the benefit of the doubt if 3400 people are murdered who are unarmed. that i will not forgive, but i do not -- >> let me give you the final word, governor ridge. in simple terms, how should the president deal with iran? >> well, i mean, every time we go to the u.n. to try to get a sanction, they end up building a couple more centrifuges. this is the single greatest terrorist organization in the world. they are responsible for killing our soldiers in iraq and afghanistan, you need to delist, these men and women in camp ashrab are on our foreign terrorist organization list. the president by picking up the phone, calling secretary clinton, take them off that list, go to the u.n. get blue helmets to protect them and tell malaki you're not closing the camp until the u.n. high
commissioner for refugees has a chance to review them all. they're all protected under the geneva convention. they're all looking to be settled outside of camp ashrab. the the president -- >> we heard you loud and clear. thank you both very much. a pleasure talking to both of you. for some, it's a lifelong passion.