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tv   Book TV  CSPAN  October 14, 2012 10:30am-11:15am EDT

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that is still the kind of story that most of us enjoy the most. and so, when i'm reading for fun, i like to read trollope with gaskell as well as the note -- well-known jane austen and mostly collins i like. the american writer i like very much from that period or little later is wharton, great favorite of mine and i'd like her because she is a real storyteller. she is always fiercely intelligent. her analysis of the characters always amazes you and yet that isn't all. she doesn't just do that and say be happy with that. she tells the full story. >> before he turned his back over, i want to ask a personal favor of you and ask you to sign
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this book. [laughter] [applause] >> by the way you will have a chance to do the same. >> while they are signing i just want to introduce myself, dale gregory vice president for public programs and how thrilling it is to have you all here and these two charming gentleman. i am sure you will agree and i just want to remind you the book is on sale and the books are on sale in our museum store, and the book signing will be out back, by the back doors. and so, i am so happy that you came and you said yes and we want to thank you charles osgood, for agreeing immediately on the phone to come and ken follett for also agreeing. it must have been immediately too i guess.
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thank you so much. it was wonderful. >> joseph crespino retranslate an political career of the late senator strom thurmond of the 47 year career from his presidential candidacy in 1942 is 24 hour filibuster and oppositions to the civil rights act of 1957 in his moving from the democrat to republican party in 1964. this is about 45 minutes. >> i want to talk to you about my book, "strom thurond's america." i want to begin by telling you a story, my strom thurmond story. when you go and do research in south carolina and you go into
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archives and people ask you which are interested in writing about, and you tell them strom thurmond, they say let me tell you my story about strom thurmond. you can't burst out in south carolina without hitting somebody who's got a great story about strom thurmond come a time he did something for them or they saw him do something crazy or that kind of thing. my story about strom thurmond begins in late july, 1992 and i am on a flight from washington d.c. to charlotte, north carolina. and i have been an intranet summer up on capitol hill. at one of my regrets of december was that never seems strom thurmond because i'm a fellow intern said you've got to see strom thurmond. he is such an unusual appearance about him. i didn't know what they meant really, but i had my suspicions. so i'm on the flight and i look ahead in front of the naca man who's got these kind of orange
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colored hair practically, so brightly covered, first-generation kind of hair plugs. it shows you how slow i am. i think to myself, that this be what strom thurmond had looks like. and of course it it was him or not people are reaching over turned shake his hand. i wanted to shake his hand to because i'd been in d.c. that summer for the first time in that all these politicians that i see not tv. i was about to go home and speak to my dad's rotary club and i wanted to tell them about the famous people i've met in washington d.c. so i was trying to shake his hand when i got off the plane. as i got off the plane, there were people lined up to shake his hand. and i didn't get in line. and i wasn't a constituent. another south carolinians. i don't have anything really to say to him and i'll said to be on us is a little
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self-conscious. it's a busy airport, lecture kinds of people another self-conscious about standing in line, waiting to greet him and his best known for his segregationist to rain. it was good enough to say that i've seen have been keep on walking. so i'm conflicted, though. i walked down the concourse about 100 yards i look back, and here since 89-year-old man at the time, he's got a suitcase -- a briefcase in one hand and a travel bag in the other in a package under one arm and he should shuffling down this busy, crowded airport. without thinking, i go back and introduce myself. i said senator thurmond, my name is joseph crespino. i'd be happy to get you to your you to your next flight. he said are sure you got enough time? i don't want to delay when your travel. as i've got plenty of time. i'd be happy to do it. we walked together for about 10 minutes and i was just trying to
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make conversation the strom thurmond. so i told him all the people i've met that summer and he said nice things about the various colleagues i i've met in that kind of thing. i told him i was on my way, today to grow from from florence, south carolina and i said some silly comment about south carolina girls. i guess because it seemed like the smalltalk when made with strom thurmond. i got into a slightly shook his hand again and that was it. but i thought about that story about his favorite book because that story really is a metaphor for the difficulty i had been writing about -- for this challenge they faced in writing about this very controversial figure. it's not easy or straightforward way to write about eight figure is controversial is strom thurmond. sometimes in reading this book, i wondered if some wondered if some of the stuff in this book is not an effort on my part to carry strom thurmond's batch,
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carry his baggage. and goodness knows he's got baggage that needs carine. but the other challenge i had come to the real challenge in this book was to fight the urge to simply walk away not meet demand face-to-face and present him as a kind of three-dimensional character. that is the challenge i faced. what i wanted to do really was to write a book -- write a history of strom thurmond's america and a way that would come in a critical but dispassionate way that would shed light on some of the issues that have shaped each have our own americans today. i hope in doing so you can add a sense of -- a measure of reason and dispassion to these issues that embroil our politics today and divide us so. so that was the goal.
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that is the mission as it were. but what are the big issues? what are the issues that the history of strom thurmond's america speaks to? we remember -- a lot of us are member who thurmond was. strong arm and was the 1940 dixie cat presidential candidate. strom thurmond was one of the lead authors of the 1956 southern manifesto, which is the protest of the supreme court's decision to brown v. board of education decision in 1954. strom thurmond is the recordholder to this day the longest one-man filibuster. it's in the guinness book of world records. 24 hours and 18 minutes he spoke against the 1957 civil rights bill. we remember strom thurman today as one of the last digit growth demagogues. anyways. but what we forget is that he
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was also one of the first of the sun belt conservatives. now what do i mean by that? now, the sun belt is one of the major stories in the history of 20th century american politics. and that is the flow of jobs, industries, resources and population from the states of the northeast and midwest to the south and southwest in the post-world war ii period. you know, something stays for recruiting industries, passing right to work laws. they were receiving lots of funding for the federal government to build military licenses at the time the united states is involved in the cold war against the soviet union. so states like mississippi, georgia and texas and florida and southern california and arizona and north carolina are all transformed in the post-world war ii period by this
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historic shift in population and political influence. i mean, just think about it. the period from 1964 to 2008 can be thought of this kind of do. if sun belt dominance in american presidential history. when you think about every president elected from 1964 to 2008, comes from the state of the sun belt. bennett johnson from texas, richard nixon from california, gerald ford was never elected, not even vice president come as a guest account he was michigan. jimmy carter, ronald reagan come the first church veteran texas va connecticut. bill clinton from arkansas and the second bush from texas. the 2008 is a watershed election. it ends his 40 year. if sun belt dominance. and there were issues that are critical in the politics that develop, that came out of the sun belt. they had a conservative cast to them. they tend to be oriented about
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strong defense of an opposition to unions in defense of free enterprise politics. and also from the sun belt in the south and southwest of pc derived by the 1970s of what we come to talk about his religious rights, evangelical and fundamentalist voters involved in the political process in new and important ways. so thurmond was at the forefront of all of those issues in his own politics. national defense comest tranche anti-communism played an important role in wavering anti-communist populist politics in the late 50s and the 1960s. it's one of the things that led him to switch parties in 1964. he was a key figure in opposing labor unions. he did so alongside people like terry goldwater come to start in the late 1950s, even though early in his career he was a staunch advocate of unions in south carolina in the 30s and 40s when the union vote was an important vote. but he switches in the 50s and
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60s and 1970s becomes a diehard supporter of business against labor. andy also has an important role in conservative evangelical politics. you know, he joins the board of bob jones university in 1950. he does it to win us. bob jones had just moved to the country, just moved his university in thurmond needed votes. he had lost the 1950 vote to decide that. i'm not begin a long process, a long relation ship of thurmond was conservative, fundamentalist and evangelical folks looking to get involved in the political process. so we need to understand theremins racial politics in the midst of these other conservative causes, these conservative issues that he was involved with and see how they intersect with one another.
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and i think doing so gives us a history with strom thurmond's america looks like and helps us rethink not only what was going on in the south, but what is going on in the national conservative political realm as well. rethinking strom airman helps us rethink modern conservatism. a history that too often thurman is left out is because we openly have this cartoonish, racist figure from the deep south. let me read you an excerpt from the introduction that speaks to this point. one reason we forget about strom thurmond is because he was so doggone old, right? [laughter] thurman predated the founding generation of what is commonly understood as a modern conservative movement. he was a closer friend to william f. buckley senior and to william f. buckley junior, the founding editor of national review in one of the central figures of modern conservatism.
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buckley senior, who restored antebellum estate in camden, south carolina became a friend and regular correspondent with then governor thurmond would've had no problem identifying strom thurmond american. i don't know if any of them public life is the site entirely approve of, you have to thurmond in 1956. his son just started a new magazine and buckley send terminate your subscription. he said his son is a fine public speaker and very sound, adding he is for segregation and every issue. but the most notorious editorialist buckley junior published in national review's early years came during the signature battle from his career, fight against the 1967 civil rights bill. at the south must prevail. four days before thurmond's historical filibuster. and according out from the editorial, 57 national review. central question that emerges is whether the white community in
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the south is entitled to take such measures necessary to prevail politically and culturally in areas that is not to dominate numerically. the sobering answer is yes, the white community is so entitled because for the time being it is the advanced race. buckley junior and thurmond would seem to occupy separate polls in conservative politics. their actions alone locked their different backgrounds and experience. it is easy to forget that what was once a fledgling writer trying to insinuate himself into a world of politics and letters. the son of a new vote oilbearing and thurmond was a priceless contact for father and son does. later, after the seachange that. at the civil rights permit, thurmond would not be the only conservative leader to segregationist record. the mid-20th century american right was a smaller, more interconnected world than we often remember. now, i think strom thurmond's
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life is interesting for the light that it sheds on southern -- when they see it properly, the light at sheds on in national politics in the second half of the 20th century. but strom thurmond's life is also interesting, since lee is a life. and in come the mammoth to be be 100 years old he is full of twists and turns, full of psychological complexity and unintended consequences and is full of secrets, too. we know the secret of his having fathered an african-american daughter that we've learned about after his death. now i want to talk a little bit of the motivation of thurman, which drove him and a lot of that comes back to his childhood. the most important figure in thurmond's life was his father. his father had an interesting career. his father was an up-and-coming young politician kind of in the political machine, a pitch for
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until then. gentleman was the biggest win in south carolina politics and the turn-of-the-century and also an infamous demagogue of jim crow south. and he was the biggest man himself carolina. in thurmond's father was a lieutenant in this operation. he had elected as a county prosecuting attorney and he was a successful career, where he was on the rise when he got into a dispute one afternoon with the name. actually the man picked a fight with thurmond, saying that he had complained about a position that his father had not been appointed to. demand was strong and he cursed thurman and all that kind of stuff. thurmond walked back to his law office. the man came around in thurmond shut the man. he was acquitted for self-defense. the foregoing into political
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career, the it doesn't help if you've been on trial for murder. that's not good. in fact, thurmond would run for the house of representatives a couple years later and ended up finishing a distant third. he would never run for electoral office again. the dnc been an behind the scenes guy, behind the scenes figuring south carolina politics. and he would support important candidates and he was kind of manage things behind the scenes. and one of the campaigns that he managed was a campaign that was very influential in the life of young strom thurmond. it was in 1912 senatorial election between ira jones, who is a former speaker of the house in south carolina. i was the candidate that strom thurmond's father, will thurmond supported. ira jones versus coleman believes, another important figure, very influential figure.
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and thurmond that always tells the story, people asked him, how did you get involved in politics? when did you know you want to be a politician? he said our member back when i was a boy i saw that race between ira jones and cole believes and i saw what he did to ira jones and i always thought that i would learn how to speak on the stump and i'd be able to defend myself. there's a certain irony for that story because he was never known for his skills as a speaker. but that's the way he remembered it. that's the way he told the story. he told it over and over when reporters asked him that question. as a formative story and i think some of the others have missed what is important in this interesting about that story. strom thurmond recalled the debate is his first lesson in political cells extent and importance of being skilled in the verbal warfare of the stump to get jones' humiliation was
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always matched in thurmond memory by his mastery and the power that gave him what the masses. in 1912 at age nine, thurmond and canada close an impressionable age to power the demagogue and experienced alluring. e.g. one this background 36 years later when as a presidential candidate, he spoke to states rights democrats. it is in birmingham in july 1940 that thurmond offered his own form, swearing that there's not enough troops in the army to four southerners have abandon segregation. he chew upon during the 24 hours and 18 mins he spent denouncing the civil rights bill of 1957 as well as another firebrand oration he gave in a massive resistance era, such as the 1958 speech declaring total in on the meeting were on the supreme court's unconstitutional
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usurpation of non-lawful irrigations of power. just thurmond also remembers the disdain of his father and other towns folk, hub leaves marks the attitudes and opinions of the thinking people. one reason might bitterness cabrera, thurmond but embrace the magical thinking about his own adventure and demagoguery, denied the outbreak are attempting to nationalize them into some vague other than mere leases them. the polls between the political ambitions were established in the 1912 race. the intelligence honorable joan was also hamstrung and toothless, despicable as he was in a circle with respect to the leaders was stylish, clever. it would seem that the fair-minded in principle became vaguely co-mingled in the mind
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of political weakness and perhaps to what this bothers failed ambition while others to try and solicit and demagogue it, thurmond new something else as well, a key to the fearsome passion, a patch to the influence and renowned that his father always longed for, but never achieved. now, there's one more at thing i want to say about strom thurmond's early years and it revolves around one of the great things i've found what i was doing research for this book. i found a gentleman from asheville, south carolina, a man named mr. bettis ran for her to himself as an amateur historian, a very talented historian and close friend of the thurmond's, who pointed me to a history, a biography of the man named francis butler simpkins.
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he was in a sunday at very well-known historian. in fact, francis butler had a magnum opus from his own hometown. so simpkins grew up in south carolina and was always fascinated with his hometown and that some point he sat down to write this kind of gossipy, thinly fictionalized account of his hometown, which would. this date was never published and is now preserved only in the archives at longwood university in virginia, were simpkins todd for his whole life, but offers a really unique perceptive on ashfield in the area in which strom thurmond was growing up, it is area in which will thurmond is the most influential figure in the political life, they are in the early 19 teens and 20s. let me read you a little bit of this and then i'm going to stop
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talking. so sometime in the late 1940s or early 1950s, francis felt that simpkins sat down to write a fictionalized memoir about growing up in ashfield barbiturate as it appears in his text. it was never published and is preserved today only in his personal papers. the untitled manuscript is fascinating for the later sheds on his one-time neighbors. simkin screwup across and was five years older than strom thurmond. and he wrote about two characters, with a name hog stews and his son, stone. and these fictional areas follow so exactly the real-life accomplishments of will and strong thurmond to make the pseudonym superfluous. simkin sivan flipped and
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referred to hogs do. despite the minor errors, the manuscript provides an intimate live on willem strom thurmond. simkin's treatment is relatively generous, describing holidays cold-blooded and his law practice, learned in the technicalities of the law without the remotest interest or impolite culture. he also pronounced him deserving of the honorary degree awarded him by the university of south carolina. he was man of moderation and charity who refuse to speak unkindly if anyone's at the town's most popular citizen for 40 years. yet the distinctive quality that emerges of pollock stoops was that of remarkably mature pics there. he rolled ventura county to machination so secret that went for decades kovalev under his authority without being aware of its existence. it was the quality of that and
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to drive into the fat. that's the other thing i didn't tell you about the 1912 election is that he didn't just attack jealous. he actually attacked the father in front of a young strom thurmond, called him pussyfoot bill for the way he went around people's backs and didn't confront his political enemies man to man, that kind of thing. simkin strutted him in his candidacy for prosecuting attorney was bloodlessly cut short as well as a schoolmaster whose dismissal stoops quietly engineered come despite visiting the man before you left out to tell them how creepy was to see them go. he was however a slightly different breed, while possessing his father's sobriety, industry and willingness to accomplish personal ambition, he was only half. the other was stone at us from his mother's side of the family he was said to have inherited a
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penchant for acts of wild falling. you and uncle and his mother's side do is quote possessed devon energy so maniacal that he dissipated a fortune in numerous foolish enterprises. still like the good sense and a set of nice, simpkins wrote. but his father achieved by indirection, stone pursued openly and effective enemies. characteristics of pollock and stone and simpkins is no wonder provide context for a defining event in the lives of will and strom thurmond. in the 1920s when strom was teaching at the local high school, a situation develop inside the household, i went to one of the acts of wild folly. it was a 16-year-old african-american girl named carrie butler. in october 1925, butler gave birth to a daughter who named as they may. six months later come to sister
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took with her to pennsylvania where she was living with her husband. she passed the channel to another sister, mary washington, who raised me as a robe. not to she learned the identity of her actual mother and told three years later she met her father, strom thurmond and his law office just off the town square in nashville. as he made his birth with an abrupt occupational change for thurmond. he had been a schoolteacher in ashfield and the paper and it just announced on the very day as the maze born, announces he's quit his job in the middle of the school year, taken a job at the real estate firm and is going to be assigned in richmond, virginia. and he stays in that job as a real estate agent in virginia until several months until after fdma had been moved to pennsylvania.
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but then he comes back to edgefield county and starts his career again teaching high school. thurmond departed the same month and returned a few months after the child has been moved to pennsylvania. we do not know whether we'll thurmond played any role in strom's temporary career change and it's hard to imagine, however, the demand so careful with appearances can do so mindful of his reputation throughout south carolina and so hopeful about his son's ambitions, would not have had some hand in making sure that the government the discretion did not imperil his future prospects. will thurmond do however it would all share a political career. her head fiercely: financial contacts to help get strom out of town for a while. perhaps he assured the navy was
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transported here it is better than his desire, a quiet conversation with some of the relatives was all that would've been required. ..
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>> remarkable how the secret persisted for so long but, of course, by the 1990 to become the worst test is not going. everybody suspected it. after some newspaper reporters tracked down been living in los angeles. but there were others along the way. it was for 1957. when he gave his filibuster, for 24 hours in a team and. there was an item published in african-american newspaper, the chicago defender and both -- the bold was puzzling over how was that there was need to speak for 24 hours and 18 minutes with only one bathroom break. you've got to keep your voice lubricated, right question got to keep drinking water. the story that he told to the press was that he gone down to the senate steam room and have intentionally dehydrated himself. so that when he drank water his body would absorb it like a sponge.
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i asked a urologist friend of mind about the viability of the, he was pretty dubious. but that's the story. that's a story that's always been told. in about that piece, they said the rumor around capitol hill was a thurmond have been outfitted with a device designed for long motor trips. some type of catheter like device. what's interesting about that is there's a memoir published a couple years ago by an african-american man in south carolina, who says he was there when thurmond was outfitted for this bag that ran down his leg. but there's been no other evidence or that kind of thing. it's one of those urological ministries about strom thurmond's career. but at the end of the item that was largely about the ministry of the filibuster, was this oblique statement, said
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something like there are rumors or there's talk that thurmond is not as opposed to black people as it might seem. you could take that to say, there have been rumors published in 1948 when he was a presidential candidate that he a black cousins. he could be referring to that. we also know that they were already enrolled in school in south carolina at the time and that there are been rumors in the black community ever since then that she was the governor's daughter. there's a remarkable thing of course that happens, holds the public news conference in south korea and says strom thurmond was my father. they changed the strom thurmond monument in south carolina. it was a black legislature instead of simply who said we've got to name his other four children on that monument so we should put her name, too. entity. there was a resolution that was
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passed and the chance of money. that goldstein, if it's written in stone, you know, written still, you can't change. that's not true. changed stone also done. they have to because they get the dates wrong about when people die or when they're born or their names are spelled wrong. and i talked to the guy who owns the company that change the strom thurmond memorial in colombia. and what you issue take granite dust, found that granite until it's a fine powder and then you mix it with crazy glue. series of. plain old crazy glue. went hardens it is harder than the stone itself and they take that mixture and a pound into where the letters have been and they pounded in so it's above the surface of the stone and then have to sand it smooth. then they carve back over the fill-in area. they had to replace -- that was the trick. they could add essie mae's name on the bottom but there was
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space, but it said father of four children and had to change the format to a fight that. so when they carve back over, if you don't get that granite powder really, really fine, it's got to be finer than like baby powder, because if you don't when you car back over it is prone to chipping. if you look closely, that five, the i in the fight has a chip on it, on the upper right side. and the left side of the dsl squiggly. and a standing, opens up that stone, the standing opened up the other ores to air and oxidized. it's kind of got a rusty color all around the word five. the whole thing come you can change still but you can't change it very easily. you can see what is in effect the kind of scar on that monument. the stone has been scarred by the work that has been done to change that for into a fight. and in the apple blog, reflect
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on the meaning of that. different way different people could read the significance of the scarred stone. been reading that stone and that monument think about the legacy of strom thurmond on our politics today in the south and in the nation. if you want to know more about how you can resist him, i encourage you to buy this book. [laughter] and read it for yourself. you might learn something. i even signed up to be. it's a painless process, i promise you. it's been a pleasure to be here and thank you all for listening and coming out. [applause] >> i think most of you probably do have question to you have probably asked them to me before in its context. but if there are any questions i would be happy speak i have a question. i'm so very proud to know you, and i'm sure that -- [inaudible]
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but my question is about trent lott. and his comments that, when he got in trouble by freezing and saying, -- [inaudible] >> he said he was proud of you stay back in 38, other states followed, the country would have all those problems. >> you address the in the book is because i mention it in real-time. it happened first 1980. he said that in 1980 when he was introducing thurmond here in jackson. thurmond was a main speaker at a rally for ronald reagan. a few days before the 1980 presidential election. and for me it was interesting and it's interesting for lot in
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1980 because he's kind of a figurative child of strom thurmond but the last chapter of the book, it's where i deal with the revelations about essie mae and also put that in a broader historical context to say that these are strom thurmond little children, before he had nancy thurmond and then essie mae. but they are also figurative children. there are a generation of southern's who switch, a big switch. so that's what i talk about in the last chapter. so i talk about that, part of thurmond is reaction and other reactions to reagan in 1980. and that party which lott says again in 2002, this was in december 2002, that was kind of, thurmond 100 proof department
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also somewhat kind of his going away party because his last year in the senate, his term is up in january 2003. he goes back anyone less for six more months. at that point it's an interesting moment because the controversy kind of raises the whole of, the modern conservative movement. who was the strom thurmond? and what role -- that's also with trent lott, right, and will grow as he played? it what's interesting about that is how othe the republicans andr conservatives responding to that issue. in responding to the controversy. so that's part of the analysis. they are interpreting thurmond. a lot of national conservative readers are doing are trying to keep thurmond as a crazy old uncle of the conservative revolution. the guy who is not really important to this conservative movement that's been going on in
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the last 50 years or so. and what my book is are you is thurmond was there all along, a key figure, and the people did taken series of. it's not just like republican strategists thought he was a kook. they didn't think he was a kook. goldwater didn't think he was a cook when is trying to get thurmond to switch parties and adores him in 19 safety for. richard nixon didn't think he was a kook when thurmond helped him carry key states in the south. so that's an important, you know, that controversy raised those broader issue is really about thurmond role in modern conservative history. and it's one of the things that sparked the idea for me to write a book in the first place. >> do you make much mention of -- [inaudible] when you write about the 40th president? >> before they were on the same ticket, they were something of a
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rival. in fact, a fascinating story that early on, the whole dixiecrat thing, in reaction to an address that truman gave, a set of proposals that truman gave in early 48, and all the southern governors meet in north florida outside of tallahassee at a governors conference, and that's where the whole thing starts. and he said with got to leave the democratic party, we've got to leave it now. and thurmond, worked out by his closest advisers said no. they said what we need is a 48 hour cooling off before we can figure out what we're going to do and i kind of thing. thurmond offered a resolution for a cooling off period, and that's what got adopted. but then at his asking people what they should be realized not too many people were interested in going off. they want to stay fired up there and thurmond been kind of double
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down and said i need to get involved in this. the reason, many people in south going to recognize this at the time, is that thurmond was looking ahead to 1950. his gubernatorial term would be up in 1950. he couldn't succeed in soft on politics and the want to run for the senate. and to do that yet to get to the right of johnson. so in some way it's ironic. thurman runs for president so he can run for the senate. he runs for the presidency in 48 to really communal, establish himself among the states' rights crowd in south goa and across the region, make a name for himself there. because ironically enough, [inaudible] for a number of different reasons. but also because he had called
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the fbi in to investigate a lynching that had happened in south carolina in 1947, and i was at a popular thing to do, to call in the fbi. but that's all in the book. it's a fascinating moment in his grid because that's really when a lot of things are moving around. both in his career and in southern politics. >> over the years i have read that haley barbour in his role as party chair was sort of the architects of the modern conservative movement. but i notice his name is not listed in the index. >> haley barbour certainly played a huge role in modern republican politics. enormously talented guy who come here, started off in mississippi politics and rose to great prominence, and is now party chairman and 96. but there's been a lot. he was an important figure in kind of, important southerner in building the modern gop.
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there have been important south carolinians. lee atwater. at what it is a guy who comes out of thurmond's political shop, it really has a huge influence on gop politics in the 1980s. runs george bush's campaign in 1988. i don't talk about haley barbour simply because this is really about, it's about thurmond and his influence. i'm sure they meant many times but they were coming out of different states -- [inaudible] >> well, but atwater was haley barbour's age. they were the same generation. and thurmond had an important -- thurmond was around a long time, 48 years in the senate. but it's more about the fact that barber is from mississippi rather than south carolina that he wouldn't be a part of this book. any other questions? thank you all again. >> one more question.


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