tv Book Discussion on Cheated CSPAN April 4, 2015 2:00pm-3:01pm EDT
administration the next concern students had was the role of the private sector hmos in tying the hands of clinical clinicians from making medical decision making. so i've worked at the intersection, you might say, of history and policy for a long time. at rutgers i worked in an institute for health care policy and history, and here i straddle once again history and public affairs. so i came here about three, about four -- five or six years ago really recruited to do what i do. and i also play a role in the history of science program as well. so i like to think that i do finish i in about three different places here at princeton. ..
which was some of his outline adjunct assistance had been doing funny things with both players. and he said, you know, said bill friday, i was talking to a young woman here at the university for seems same snow some things with are very disturbing. i told her, well i cannot do too much to help bartlett you go talk to the folks in the south building the administration building. i did not think a great deal about that the time except that i figured the bill friday was selling me a must-have substantive -- some substance, but but i was already worried khmer so many of us were but the indications about that proof about all this wealth and
also as a sort of a sort of member of the faculty would your dr. time with the meaning of the faculty council because among other things, it is a way to find out how things should be about what part of the academic a ministration is thinking. if you name is jeff swift the elements of prophetic things about sports they i can tell you but when jeff spoke was the people turner had his were not partners at this particular moment. except they were aiming for the same final and.
and that is and that is the kids should be educated the matter what they were called in the university the intense interest in creating a certain kind of sports program i have to tell you i have you i have been in public life in one way or another in most of my wife and was shocked to discover just how credible in fact disgustingly incapable the leadership was in the university system of doing what had to be done. step up to the plate saying we messed up and will clean it up. well, a reporter or two in here who discovered how little the university what is talk about that which was obvious. a lot of people in the
business of the soon discovered, like him make up a name richard nixon you would rather want to pretend that the press is the enemy as opposed to what had been done to the enemy. it took a long time for us to undo itself. the process of it was, i have a great good fortune. i believe so much. i get the opportunity. i've never actually been involved in something in which a truly bad situation was not only confronted go over those who were persecuted out of existence by a man who best could be described -- well, i won't do it.
[laughter] and academic guys were just being essentially that their day came with its stunning and that that was they have been warning over claiming was now validated by the university's own money not because that one report the state as well as university. three, it is a reminder that edmund burke was corrupt and the old clichés true, the
triumph of evil is always the book. faculty at unc was largely within the category of the silence of the lambs to end the administration was largely in the category of commits if i just close my eyes command will go away this book this book will tell you how it was at the top and also some ideas they have about how it might be kept from that way again: i cannot tell you how proud i am of both of them. [applause] >> thank you for coming in
fighting the rain. >> sometimes we change our name. we like to do that. i still have married. i have only known him as j. maybe you have changed your name recently. >> this book is, of course, is, of course, about the particulars of the unc scandal, what happened at chapel hill and how and why our administration faculty leadership failed to provide the proper leadership for so long train 2010 at 2014. you will find all the details in this book. but. but really, we think of the book is about something greater, larger than the unc scandal itself is the unc scandal, we believe is emblematic of all is wrong with sports at the moment.
moment. this is about how the prestigious academic institution can be co-opted by the big-time athletic machine in the educational consequences for the athletes themselves when that happens, happens, how that co-opting happens, how pervasive the moral co-opted becomes criminal everyone gets affected by it and learns to stay silent going to look the other way to watch actively facilitate the maintenance of the system. you know the particulars command least i am assuming that most of you know a lot of the particulars of the actual scam which was at the center of this particular manifestation of action for
an independent study courses on the one hand and bogus lecture courses on the other hand and use those courses as come as far as we are concerned, vehicles of eligibility from eligibility for athletes who needed a break from who were not particularly strong students or when a client a client to do university work or for whatever reason. they were concussed, injured telling you the time. they were concussed, injured telling you the time. that apartment. that department was not the only the form of those involved. bending or lowering or ignoring academic standards. there are plenty of other faculty and other departments also ben's to the pressures that are
invariably exerted by athletic enterprise. it's athletic enterprise. courses and faculty can particular faculty in philosophy and geography and french and a few other places offer courses that essentially functioned as rewrites rafts they used that fleet of courses to keep these athletes on track academically and on the field where the coaches could use the physical laborers. we had hoped actually to show you a couple of graphics that would illustrate how this works for individual athletes. as it turns out, they are indecipherable only put them on screen, screen, but we will talk briefly before turning things over about a couple of individuals who experienced the system really hitting on all
cylinders cylinders and how to work, function, how work, function's, how counselors in the academic support program exploited loopholes for the purposes that we ever imagined. the 1st of these individuals is one of the most famous athletes in ufc history's transcript are likely for, likely for us is already public and so we can talk about that. are there any are there any nc state fans in the audience? [laughter] >> thank you. >> in addition to acknowledging dan kane we should have said something about pet pride. the fan forum. these were the people who discovered that this phantom transcript was actually a published transcript. we were going to show you that, but it is indecipherable on the screen. at screen. at the end of his 3rd semester in resident that usc his gpa was 1.57.
>> not doing too well it's. you need to have a 1.75 in order to be eligible for athletic participation for the upcoming season. with the academic with the academic counselors did was without him to 11 classes out of his next 17 courses and 17 courses, and at least eight of those 11 courses were paper. guess. guess what, you really well. he did really well. it's been when this happened several times over the course of his checkered career. in the course of the summer.
most brilliantly they persuaded debbie crowder to schedule a two credit hour independent study. this is highly this is highly irregular. independent studies and three-hour courses are like any other. but the problem was that he needed lots of hours and hargraves but cannot register for nine hours because if you done that he would need the approval of the dean and they did not want dean's looking. so this schedule a two hour independent study courses that are three and, and guess what he rocked it with an a. and then he too, was boosted up over the eligibility bar, on the field in the fall, fall never graduated, however and never played in the nfl and the reds case is much more egregious as far as we are concerned because he made his money, made money, made it to the nfl got
something out of the experience representative of so many athletes committee get nothing no education you did not he did not get his name: track day, you get nothing. and his experience it's typified the experience of the revenue sport athlete basketball and football players at unc and across the country. what happened was egregious, cingular, awful, but things like that happen everywhere because all of these athletes are working in the same pressures working their 50 hour weeks and trying to make their way in the classroom often at universities where they are not prepared to do the work. they find ways to keep them alive, to keep them afloat.
all the while they learn their academic experience intellectual experience are subordinated to the athletic demands of the athletic machine something that mary witnessed firsthand. >> we call it schedule engineering. who play a masked game and join the conversation this week saying that were cingular going to have to
talk about, you know, really these private athletes. mandated by the ncaa and the number of institutions to be enrolled in full-time classes for 12 hours. 12 hours. you have to ask yourselves, could we do that? today due to a large academic is grueling. eighteen to 22 -year-olds'. i'm looking around the room and thinking maybe some of you have or have had children that fit in this age, but we bring them into carolina before the 1st year and put them right away into this type of boot camp where they are to take classes and to start their athletic training. so they are dealing with the
nutrition of folks, some of them have learned, couple of weeks ago being awoken at two in the morning to eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches because they are supposed to be gaining weight. i heard the same stories that carolina. are doing a lot of work with this will particularly football players to get them ready to play immediately in the 1st season in the fall they're not really getting a college experience because you are supposed to go to college to do what your 1st semester, gets in on the campus, get to know where the parties are get to know who the good professors are, get to know who your friends are going to be were not to be going from five in the morning where you might be running stadium stairs to lifting to a few classes to grab something to eat to watch film come to go practice, to
go study hall. on another. long days. for many years them until they are the guy. for the most part we talk about athletes will talk about basketball and football players, the book touches on many of the olympic sports as well. the 26 other. and now we hear him at notre dame separating some of this out. it's all different and yet they loved it into one category of college sports. >> we are going to read an interesting page from a book i wonder if we should show them a few figures. >> absolutely. >> interesting to show.
>> i don't know how well you can see the silent. but it is interesting about this particular line of 18 athletes 18 athletes who took multiple paper classes in the early 1990s. you probably you probably cannot see them, but if you study carefully the gpas they earned in regular courses which you we will find here other courses 194, 194 152 175 2.01 171, 169, etc. a lot of these guys had gpas and. but if you look at how they were helped by the multiple courses which are available
there on the high twos and low threes, circuiting bees, b- is, the pluses is, the pluses and especially in the early 90s to stay away from a's an a-. but what happens, of happens, of course, when you combine a bunch of low performing courses with those higher performing courses, courses, it evens out okay in the end. even i can see this very well is gpa and other courses outside of that. and you can see how the courses function.
what's a a striking is that these are the 1st 18 players were sent to julius on more than one occasion he was handing out gifts time and time again to get those gifts elevated to the places they needed to be. the actual paper class. again, i realize a case is very well, but the number of people classes taken. one lucky so let's take 18. is gpa and all other, 1.56. for all the paper classes a
reading at grade level. a little bit better. we have letters crisis. not dealing with that. it's a public school problem. a post secondary institution is bringing in athletes who do not meet the efficient standards are universities, carolina we're about 30000 and 30,000 take 4,000 students, so we are competitive. recommendations were.
>> bring them run off the realization the contrast with a scholarship in the real provide you with a world-class education and academic benefits that i can benefits in an agony real education, so many are getting nothing yet we all enjoy watching them on game day. so we can talk about all the good carolina people in administration and staff's who are complicit but we are all little bit complicit. so we complicit. so we need to get into the conversation and have it changed. there is a great example in the book of what it is like for an athlete this idea of
how controlled they are, especially in a profit profit sport, and this is an example and football. there is a paragraph from going to read. actually having you read to me and me not read to you. just quickly. command their loyalty to the machine, found that the locker room. revealed in the documentary film school the price of college sports you really need to look it up. the coaching staff of a carolina uses player in nfl aspiration as leverage against them when needed's. posted on the door and locker room's this is the word man. the type of sign that it is
that identifies misbehaving individuals and realize the road reminds the road to their master is, attention nfl scouts, i we will not help the following players. they cannot help you win football games. can you believe that? the very existence of that sign makes a mockery of the often repeated claim that college football players are students 1st not only offensive that they would allow the intimidation of inspiring professionals. coaches brand players as egotists in the eyes of nfl scouts and prospective employees. does that seem right to anybody? that is not what college is supposed to be about. we would not make a list on the board of the students who are failing the test should not get into law school or medical school. we would never do that. if these guys, hopes and
dreams are shattered each and every day. such a controlled environment, and it it is an issue, civil rights issue a social justice issue, and we help that she did part of the national conversation. the education of athletes and the future big-time college sports. so it is a privilege for me to write this book with j smith and it was a privilege to take this journey with all of you and for the support that i have gotten. and we could not have done it without you, and there are so many in this room who made this happen. in the long run it will make a difference and we will be on the right side of history. >> happy to answer any questions. >> we love q&a because we love to be stopped.
really good by thanking you. did you speak to that? >> the board of governors and trustees are in charge. i believe that to be material. i don't know how much control she had the face of the university at this. the 1st the 1st female chancellor we have had in 220 years. she was at the mediation made an appearance it's we
just lost tom ross. i don't think we can blame it on her. >> being forced out. >> just decided. >> as a faculty member is easy for me to say, yes i wish they would have behaved differently but i no darn well the faculty should have. putting the heat on the administration all along. and this is no excuse.
>> all the scandals across the country additions, directors had been held accountable how many athletic administrators of faculty members have been held accountable. it's totally backwards. if they are not admitted i worked at a university were many of these same kids were not admitted because the transfer. the main university.
the faculty representatives still not on the radar. they fly right under the radar and are never held accountable for anything. he graduated from seminary. >> first success story, this woman over here. >> i have a question. i agree with everything that has been said. i am at duke graduate. i want to disclose that.
they spend about a month to six weeks before school starts in boot camp. the private sector, private school that not nearly as qualified as the rest of the pulled off his big event. there are solutions. but there are solutions that can help. i don't think there's anything radically different than what has already been done a gap in academic
preparedness without athletes for us is much water. we noticed was with the transcript look like because we had behind for but the law that says we need to protect that because we do. we can identify it and talk about the transcripts. and even better, and even better, we have a pile of them i hope it's true.
show me the transcripts. as the only way we'll see if it's true or not. clustered together in the same age or bunch of independent studies. as the only way we will prove young people are getting the education we promise. >> but if we are going to admit them and they are that far behind we half. >> however long it takes. yes, we are to. >> yes very low back. yes. >> you mentioned before both coaches took the fall or both talked for both coaches
knew. why has the basketball coach not taken the fall hear? >> i think he's playing a game at the moment. we moment. we cannot call them out and asking. i think eventually there going to see when the ncaa comes back in. there is more coming in happening behind the scenes. i do believe that changes are coming. certainly it seems that the ncaa has some role that might be effective and one of them is he should have known if you did not know. time will tell the story. >> coaches have given us so plausible deniability they made the technical decisions.
they have are seen as have -- transcripts and he is telling the truth. he did he did take for paper classes and was on the dean's list. his transcript reflects that and that he was failing most of his regular core classes. he told some great stories, and i think we will be hearing more from him and his stories and they will be fascinating. a bad reputation for being quite a character. just like all of us, us once you sit down the table and get to know us were not exactly as we may seem. and seem. and he is one of those people. >> you alluded to one allude to one of the great and discussed scandals within a scandal, by the way the
fact that julius peppers at the end of his 1st year with his 7.2 gpa and awful performance academically in his 1st year, the fact that after that 1st year the basketball coach decided it was a good idea to get them on the basketball team and that the athletic director allowed it, as did everyone else, this is a scandal that should never have happened. how is this possible? >> that man had his hand up for a very long time. >> did you get a chance to interview the players were the coaches? if so, what do they say? >> i worked with students in the athletic department for 11 years. a lot of the stories, chapter seven and eight are from our experience working with the young men and women that i worked with welfare. in addition we interviewing had athletes we talked to and some faculty and some staff and we talked to. we did we did not talk to
coaches. no, we did not talk to any coaches. but but we certainly have heard from coaches, you know espn come outside the lines, you know, lines, you know, locally we have heard from coaches saying that the last report, they did not notice early those having behind-the-scenes. on a weekly basis from the academic year for student athletes. tournaments like athletes. tournaments like right now in march madness before you go to the tournament you have to certify your students all over again. constantly constantly in an academic support unit in athletics constantly looking at those transcripts and letting the coaches no who is eligible, who is not eligible, who is sitting on the fence, where we are going forward thought that. >> first off i would like to thank you as well. i was wondering if you
they systematize the whole thing my the early 90s. >> so there were other easy courses in the general college. >> yes. >> well, paper classes no. >> angiography absolutely. >> nine hours at least. twelve and generally six in the summer session. >> always easy classes, but most people's transcripts are not littered with easy classes. absolutely. in our culture today. meetings and tests. maybe it is not fraudulent.
it's always about money which comes down to money. but proposals were claims is you have relative to policing? >> policing the boosters. >> we don't really. we don't really get into that, although we have had some conversations just in the last few weeks about how we really have -- involving for us. happening nationally. talking to arnie duncan the secretary of education, in conversations with these people. is it really possible to connect academics to athletics to make this
college sports the size and the spectrum from optimist to have optimistic to pessimistic so far as significant movement toward solution. >> i am optimistic. and they say just like that case, also involved in this next case he said the door is open little bit to fix this. we had to take it all the way off the hinges. it has to come down and we are still a ways away from that. big money is corrupt. television contracts going out three years which will present a bit of a problem but the conversation is alive command people are getting involved for the 1st time ever. i you as optimistic as i am?
>> not quite. >> no, your not. >> high hopes for class action lawsuits which would really bring about significant change especially than the can't ramsey lawsuit that takes aim precisely the problem we talk about in this book 's. we have high hopes for that. and we will see how it goes. it is it is a downer of the book, honestly. some some sunny optimism there. >> that was my part. >> i i don't know how many questions we have time for. who is next? >> i i think this gentleman has been waving at me. it seems to work. >> getting your job back. doing the right thing. >> i don't really think that differences at this time are reconcilable yet but i believe that someday they
will be, and i hope also and i'm optimistic that someday i we will be invited back. people are inviting us to come. he will be at carolina in april in the classroom. there is an interesting hear from us and wants the story gets more legs and wants the national conversation continues and court cases' move forward i think that the university will, perhaps, recognize me as somebody who belongs. i am i am a tar heel and we will always be one. we live three blocks from the carolina and. you know, kids come home and then they go on franklin street and love it here. so so we are not going anywhere. i we will just wait it out. i have a few good years left >> i have i have seen two people with hands up for quite a while. >> my question has to do was there a moment at which
-- if you could explain the moment or did it occur over a long time when you realized i have got to act? and what that was like? >> that is kind of an easy question actually. it was immediately. i mean,, we were fuming that the martin report, governor jim report, governor jim martin released a report in december 2012 in which he famously declared, this is not an athletic scandal this is an academic scandal. limited to one department. and we were and we were on the phone with with each other within seconds. mary was at the meeting. the documentary you will see her crushed by this announcement of the governors. >> i i had a really nice jacket on. [laughter] but i was very upset. >> i was crushed.
i i watched it online and was left breathless by this announcement. by the end of the day we decided we were writing a book because it was clear to us at that time that the university had no intention of disclosing what had really happened on chapel hill. they were going to keep as tight a lid on it as they could and we were determined that the truth was is going to be told. it had to be told. >> for that i actually was talking -- i love to have left the athletics department in 2106 months ahead of marvin austin's famous tweets. this party in miami and in some kids should not be allowed to go partying get free drinks. that started the whole problem and then the academic problems were uncovered during that investigation command i remained silent except that i talked to general counsel in 2010, but they pretty much ignored me and what i
said and then in 2011 i started speaking with dan kane off the record. and in 2012, and i'm still talking to him come i went to president friday's funeral and remembered i had i had met with him in 2010 and was feeling really bad about how important academic integrity was to him and now at home and said i got to do something and he said start a blog. so i started a blog. it is all his fault. it went viral. and then dan said, you are basically on the record now. now. off to the races we went. then i met jay around the same time. both he personally and his athletic reform group have had my back. although it seems like a
have had all of this eight which i have fans are fanatics i have had many more supporters encouraging me as many of us no that this is the truth and what we have seen ourselves. i happen to be in the right place the right time, great support for my husband and family command i would never have been able to do this book without this guy because i am a reading and learning specialist and can tell stories, but he is the writer. >> you tell a good story. >> it has been a great journey, and i have learned a lot. >> as time has gone by you have students were failing and now you have got other things, other students now passing? have any students dropped out? >> we can't see the
transcripts anymore. they cut us off. they cut they cut him off too. imagine that. we know that admission standards -- >> admission standards were raised to couple of years ago. and so and so in the last two years unc admitted fewer they are still admitting some, but far fewer of the truly. i think something like it's -- i'm going to get the numbers wrong, but 25 were admitted into thousand they were as 2012 there were only nine. 's. they do seem to have tightened up the standards. the. the danger, of course, it is maybe just a temporary measure while everyone is looking. they have they have adopted no hard and fast rules about admissions going forward and so we must be vigilant. but which but which courses are they taking? we really do not know and cannot tell. we're not close enough to the ground any longer to know what there doing.
but there have been a couple of academic casualties. casualties. on the football team. >> for the 1st time in history we lost for players three or four players academically ineligible. >> it is getting tougher for them. >> last question. >> this is the last question, i'm afraid. [inaudible question] >> again again, i appreciate and want to commend you both for what you have done. my question is more about the culture of the university's and why we have not seen more professors tenured professors step up and actually take a stand on this. they are the ones i think we, we see the universities, i have a nephew who is premed over they're. we have had this discussion. he is getting a great education but the value of his degree obviously has been tarnished.
>> i can only agree with you. faculty is supposed to be the guarantor for the integrity of the institution, the watchdogs for these sorts of offenses. the fact that we have not been marching is a mystery to me. i do not understand it. there are plenty of other faculty who are as angry as i am. that is soft-spoken necessarily, but there are a lot of them. it them. it is true that the faculty as a collective just is not mustered much in his -- energy and i am disappointed by that. ..
>> reporter: nobody wants that. everybody wants to be left alone. >> there is a startling statistic i can across, a faculty rally a couple weeks ago, 59% of faculty are not on the tenure track anymore. the majority of faculty do not have the protection of tenure. that is markedly different from just 10 years ago when something like 80% or more of faculty had tenure protections so the status of faculty is under assault at the moment. all across higher education and one of the consequences is faculty will be less willing to challenge administrators so we need to be