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tv   After Words  CSPAN  September 27, 2015 12:00pm-1:01pm EDT

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things ever invented. >> you said that you worked on this book for several years. >> yeah. it took a long time -- >> why? >> dealing with a topic that i didn't know that much about, history of war, decline of war. all you hear about is people fighting. 1945 was the last time, korea, vietnam, these kinds of wars are decreasing. nothing like the holocaust or the tragedies, you know, and so on. those are anomalies compared to today. isis is bad. ..
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is terrorism and existential threat? no. we are the mythbusters, as it were. >> host: what do you teach unchallenged? >> guest: skepticism 101. i'm thinking like 18 -year-olds right out of high school and teaching them how to use their brain,brain
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conjured in their brains from marsh and to critical thinking machines. >> host: what does it mean to think scientifically? >> guest: reasoning, thinking critically, be skeptical, don't claim to have accept claims office of it. ask for evidence, challenge it. everyone whoi thought it was a fearful office to the philosopher? >> guest: so i think the great enlightenment philosophers, people who opened the doors up. these are the great rational, skeptical scientific groups. >> host: a lot of people here at freedom fest like john locke. >> guest: i would throw him in there in the top five >> host: the moral arc is the name of the book. justice and freedom.
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michael shermer is the author. >> is there a nonfiction author book you would like to see featured on book tv direct send us an e-mail. tweet us, or post on our wall. >> joy and read is on book tv's afterwards program next how racial issues have impacted presidential campaigns and what always will play in 2016. >> is great to see you, joy. we have a lot to talk about and not much time to do so. you have a wonderful new book out.
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who cares about race relations in america and was so the next pres. is going to be. tell us,be. tell us, what caused you to write is what motivated you? >> guest: 1st of all, all,all, thank you so much for having me. when i 1st sat down and started thinking about this book it was in 2013. that's, of course, was the 1st year anniversary of the march on washington in 2013 to 2014, 2015, nsr not want to write a book about what it means to have the 1st black pres., with this is for the country and the racial fallout, how to change the country. the republicanthe republican reaction to obama.
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and then i decided that if i would write about political reaction going to start with my own party for the front i grew up in, the democrats because the 50th anniversary is also their arc from becoming the party of segregation and rejectionism to be the party that produced the 1st black president. >> host: you say in the introduction about trying to get your energy. [laughter] >> host: you say in the introduction that when you were a child, and i quote, the democrats were our party by that you meant to i think the black people's party. the republicans were their party. you mentioned that, of course. so the history tells us this was not always the case. as you talk about in the beginnings of the book, talk about this devolution. how did it come to black
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people being all republican. >> after two older people in the south to this day who are still republican because they have a visceral reaction to the word democrat. the parents, keep them from exercising there rights. for a lot of african-americans, the republican party, it was the party. what you see start to have been the great recession had, the great depression hit, it was the democratic president who put this rescue plan in place. made a lot of compromises and a lot of compromises and baked it into the new deal.
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because of that economic rescue massive south americans began to look, literally saving their economic lives. it was the 1st time he saw that rolled into the democratic party. but it was really volatile after that. dwight david eisenhower did very well with african-americans. prominent black americans like jackie robinson and hopefully out of the party and reported republican candidates. when he saw there were about 60 to 65%60 to 65 percent democratic, but still 30 to 35 percent republican right next to richard nixon. >> he got 30 percent plus of the black vote. but what started the cascade of black americans away from the republican party was barry goldwater.
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that really was a pivot.of black politics in this country both in terms of black people breaking into the democratic party, but barry goldwater really showing a face to the republican party becoming unacceptable for black people have 41964, barry goldwater, johnson, do you believe it was more of an anti- goldwater, antirepublican thing from a whole was it more a pro lbj from democratic thing? what caused this massive support of blacks? >> i think it was a mix of both. john f. kennedy with this ongoing negotiation. republican start to do certain things that are power, but his culminated in
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him proposing the civil rights act of 1963. so it has vice president who grew up in a segregated context was picking up the mantle of the civil rights it really went all in. johnson went all in for the civil rights act and away even that kennedy had been reluctant to do. in that shows a lot of african-americans, this might be a party we can do business with. one of the things i found interesting was research, in 1950 for the young civil rights leaders look to both parties and said, give us your platform, which was consider the more radical. republicans and the democrats want to see what
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your 1964 party platform will be. once lyndon johnson went for the civil rights act and barry goldwater became the standard bearer of the republican party and was opposed to the civil rights act and the movement, i think that started this cascade. it took a long time. by the time you get you ato a richard nixon, the republican party started to train and support. the time the messaging became very anti-, that just sealed the deal. >> interesting. let's take it up to march 2008. let's talk a little bit about the presidential primaries and that historic election. barack obama made a famous speech on race relations command i can remember sitting down with friends and family and being just glued to the television set when he was going to talk about reverend wright and what he felt about race and
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what he felt about this primary campaign, this historic campaign. my question to you is, did you -- were you impressed by that speech? do you think that that was one of the greatest speeches on race ever made? if not, what work? >> no, i think actually, it was brilliant. the speech was not made on purpose. they were not running him is black and being very careful david axelrod had run harold washington's reelection campaign and understood how to run a black candidate in a non- black majority district and they were really the architects of some of that strategy and
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were steering this candidate in and direction of was ecumenical on race. barack obama come in 2,004 burst onto the national scene. there was no black and white america. so by the time we get to this racialized man who had never really placed himself as a race fan, including the hillary clinton campaign, not this ecumenical, racial figure, not this uniter. he is this divisive figure. so by the time barack obama gives that he is doing it on defense and tells is a, if you cannot accept my explanation of what happened and my relationship to my pastor, so be it. i'm going to go ahead out there and say what i need to say. they have been a lot of speeches that were important. obviously martin luther king i am very partial to talk
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about ryan being the voice of the unheard. sometimes the postcard king is the less important than the radical thing who is challenging the nation to say you're not your best self for not a great country you think you are. you not give all of your citizens therefore rights. even more brilliant. and john f. kennedy who after ever being questioned to giving and nationwide televised address for the 1st time a president, sitting president did so was brooklyn johnson when he quotes we shall overcome and confirming the voting rights act. so conversations, they are having a lot of them. >> my favorite point about bobby kennedy, the speech
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that night as well. he talked about thesetalk about these racial speeches and you can talk about obama making this wonderful speech. so with the election of president obama americans expected and help a dialogue on race. but americans got brief comments on issues, black males on the police, beer summits on the white house lawn. whywhy do you think it was so hard, difficult for pres. obama, the 1st black pres. to talk about race. >> well, one of the things i write about is called my theory about the rule for black national figures. you want to be a national figure, you are expected to be in a certain box, to
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comment really only on progress. you are not supposed.out the flaws because at makes you a rev. justever just jesse jackson and reverend al sharpton and limits your ride. the candidates who are successful, they are people who talk about race in some kind of elevated way. barack obamaway. barack obama was perfectly situated to be that person because way that he has reported him self and his public life after his moment of radicalism apartheid protesting he really was this ecumenical -- racially ecumenical die. and so he comes in the office focused on the economy that has gone over cliff, 700,000 jobs a month being lost command he is really focused on that. i found no evidence that barack obama came to the white house to litigate race
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i think that for a lot of african-americans there was this pent-up need to have that litigated. and it could happen because this was a pres. who focused on being president of the whole country. but he winds up stumbling right into the same box that others supported list and findmissionary find themselves in executive eric holder is, reverend sharpton in terms of the laity opponent characterized it does it was new enrollment. he defended. suddenlysuddenly people said comeau wait a minute, you are breaking the bargain. you're not supposed to address these kinds of things. trade on margin is killed. he addresses it. his opponents say, see after he really was and is the reverend greg i, this
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ecumenical he racial character.character. it was seized on the instant he ever even tiptoed toward it. >> host: and did it harm him politically? >> guest: absolutely. one of the most dramatic an interesting things i found, we have the polling come almost immediately the plummeted immediately. it was a seesaw. whenever we talk about these racial experiences, he's affirming what i was saying. the police treat me differently. >> host: you say that they were able to talk very
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positively about the american racial experience, and that help them politically with many white voters. i talk about the racialized and says that happened during the 2,008 primary campaign seem to really, the confidence seems to really raise between clinton and obama. there were some characterizations of obama such as running a fantasy camp for some characterizations of him being the affirmative action candidate with a black candidate, tried to put him in a box. my question to you is, do you think that this was just
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politics as usual? two strong candidates competing, or was this sort of hitting below the belt? sort of using racial codewords that we have seen many in the republican party do over the years. >> the evidence that i got was that it was that the clintons as a couple never really saw any complications on the horizon. hillary clinton, senator obama was elected a fellow superstar center and understood what that meant and fellowship reached out and been supportive. some fundraising. and so they were blindsided by the idea that this upstart could run against her when it was her turn and shark that he got in monopoly that he got in some key advisor was working for him, and they were shocked for that.
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then he wins iowa where he just out organize them, he just chilling out works them sharks the system. and by the time they get to new hampshire it was a campaigna campaign that was discombobulated, and they started to make mistakes, take things personally when then senator obama would mentioned jfk, suddenly the response of the sharp. you are no martin king because,because, by the way, it was lyndon johnson signed those laws. they were making a factually accurate, stinging statement that was meant to be review of the idea that he was a kennedyesque figure, i king like figure which really bothered this couple particularly since bill clinton saw himself as someone who wanted that mantle of kennedy.
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and when they put that on barack obama i think it enraged him. the commentsthe comments that got him in trouble what really made in new hampshire , all in one day when this campaign became unraveled. and they started to make these untoward statements. their supporters are making ugly statements out of desperation. by the time they get to south carolina you have seminal figures same back off. need to back off his references. it really was about his iraq policy, but it did not matter at that point. by the time they get to south carolina, they were not used to running against not just a black man over the black community. once barack obama one iowa he had the african-american
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going away. and hereaway. and here it was, gone, and i don't think they knew how to handle it. >> when obama 1st announced his numbers were very low. now you say at some point whether it was iowa or four new hampshire the black community embraced him. what do you attribute that to? starting out so low-end and the phenomenal embrace. >> i think what you have, the african-american vote is very pragmatic. it is aspirational to a certain degree.a certain degree. which of these candidates is going to ensure that these forces are going to flow to our committee who by and large are hurting. and so the african-american community has ever gone on
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fantastic -- fantastic runs. that was seen as her fantasy , not something that was practical. so particularly with political leaders. jesse jackson runs and did not have support of the black establishment. they were focused on winning the election. he runs and 88, and more of the black establishment, still not seen as a pragmatic figure. but more alike this is exciting. the establishment had to pay attention to him. the barack obama ran the majority of the black establishment saw that is a wonderful leader for the future, maybe someone who could come with more
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politics, right now we need to win this lesson will make sure democrats in the white house and democratic policies are in the white house. two to 1, more than two to one hillary for not just the leadership, but the base of the party. when this young black senator wins iowa it was almost like not a fantasy but a practical possibility and send to see black voters flow in his direction command once he knew that new hampshire put on what i think is his best speech, the yes we can speech, speech,speech, that dream and the founding documents of the nation land was a. >> one of the reasons i love the book. so many interesting facts, so many so many interesting tidbits and background information they talk about. you know, as a professor, i thought, i do a lot of the stuff command i lived in cleveland at the time that homer stokes became mayor.
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and you talk, you mentioned shirley chisholm. you said the civil rights committee wanted stokes. she sort of jumped the gun. but it is facts like that, people this book and be amazed. let's talk about the title and what it means specifically in terms of reflecting the relationship between a president obama, clintons, and the racial divide of the democratic party. when did this divide 1st manifest itself? what specific things do you attribute it to? also,also, do you feel it is more personal or more philosophical? is it about bill clinton, the politician, or is it about more personal?
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>> that is a great question. the 1st crack is in 1968. because this is four years after the civil rights act. we are in t thick of the vietnam war and you have this president lyndon johnson was heroic in the eyes of many african-americans suddenly pivoting away from the resourcing of the war on poverty which was meant to rescue not just black people but white and were all-americans. you see him. away from that. african-americans disproportionately die, southern rejectionism still following the events of the voting rights act and you
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also see projects is one of the north for african-americans being told you are not welcome in these neighborhoods. the black folks start to look at lyndon johnson sideways. and king then comes out falls where against the war, never gets invited back to the white house and then you have lyndon johnson going and 6840 was not going to run again. in order to assert, black freedom fighters who are trying to say this party is not doing what you say, not accepting the voting rights act. he sidelines. shut up essentially. we have already done a lot for you. you will once. the client. and i thinki think that was the 1st sort of a hot moment. andthen in 72 you have the black establishment saying we need to respond and show
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this democratic party that they don't. shortly chisholm comes income address the plan, nixon winds, it is a disaster. sort of saying these black holes. and thenholes. and then here and african-americans looking to the party, where you? they are not healthy, winning,healthy, winning, capable. jimmy carter falls apart plan the response of the democratic party is to say we arewe're going to walk away. there going to adopt the tough on crime message of your and our opponent and will be more like them. >> jesse jackson, we can do it. as you see african-americans pushback, these fractures
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existed under the surface. now you have this southern democrat, southern governor essentially trying to repay what he saw this is dead. i was the 1st black president. your thoughts. and this is a fantasy. again, you were talking about the. that was read as commits hillary's time. that is selfsomething have been years and decades of underlying fractions burst open. >> host: you talk about this fracture beginning with lbj. and then talk about it during the clinton administration. there are number of things you mentioned in the book that i was unaware that highlight
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this fracture, and i don't think that a lot of americans knew that this was occurring. >> guest: one of the things that people assume was instantly once the civil rights act passed that white southerners exit the party. they didparty. they did not exit for four years, he has some politicians who understood this push ballgame. the whole both of their hands at the same time. bill clinton comes in and 92 one of the bases signals to white working-class voters that he is there back is he rebukes jesse jackson. that this incredible voter registration. he used his convention. that was not a message to black people, that was a message to white voters. because of some of the need to do compromise. republicans taking advantage
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of the gay-rights issue and trying to help the military and then ends up getting to write. forget, reverend al sharpton was protesting. it wasit was seen my a lot of civil rights leaders in the war between african-american. he does the welfare reform bill. find that even worse bill that is bill consequences. this path which was a golden economic age. they really loved bill clinton in a lot of ways. >> fascinating. i know you talked about the urban agenda that many of the civil rights community was trying to push with the clinton administration as
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well as welfare reform that caused the fracture as well. it is a fascinating aspects. let's bring it up to 2015. it has been an amazing clip tumultuous year for particularly when it comes to recent police interaction , police shootings, many have been captured on video and much of the nation has been shocked by this horrendous treatment and serious consequences that have occurred. a number of movements have been sparked by the shootings. most, i think well known well-known is the black lives matter movement. talk a little bita little bit about how you think this movement has impacted the primary the democrat and democrat and republican. >> i think they had a tremendous impact. black lives matter again
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after the killing of trade on martin. and that are really sparked what was going to be the national conversation about the value of black men's lives. when barack obama touched it and said something about trade on margin and related to him, that became polarized and suddenly you have this argument. black lives matter since then has picked up steam. self-directed, not formal and ordered, but it is powerful. young african-american speaking for themselves about there own lives and the force the party. bill clinton is reputed rejected, that wing of the
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party to great success himself. that that wing has been marginalized. but it is really the liberal white wing of the party. so that one they are focused on economics, the argument about whether wall street has gotten away with murder in front income inequality is the key issue that needs to be dealt with. yes come income inequality is important, but we need to deal with the depths of young black people. the vast majority of riots have been killing or injuring of someone police. his career is that have the people feeling absolute frustration. so it saying to the mainly
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white liberal democratic party, you cannot contrast this issue. hillary clinton, civic justice columbia university and force bernie sanders to talk about race. they really challenged martin o'malley. so i think they have change the debate. what i did find surprising is when you look at the democratic party it is sort of natural, and there are not a lot of young people of color for showing diamond within politics. so you have almost the same sort of dynamic the 1960s when you come back protests and large nearby politics on the table.
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attend of interesting. >> i want to push you a little bit. you mentioned the jesse jackson, george mcgovern wing of the party. i want to push you in the sense of, do you think there is a difference between black liberals and white liberals with the jesse jackson and bernie sanders? >> absolutely. those three figures are important in the modern history of party, mario cuomo zeroed in. lg bt rights whose agenda is really race specific. there is a difference from black and white liberals. they are focus on race-based inequity and race-based
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solutions which is something that by a large some white liberals a very sympathetic to. they did not necessarily, especially now. very much in the sanders camp which is about income inequality broadly and if you can solve that it will lift everyone. whereas you really have to deal with face which has always been the divides. >> very interesting. let's talk about the recent campaign, hillary clinton running in the democratic primaries. at the end of the book on page 320 you quote, voting rights activist whom you talk about throughout the book russia, i think, worked
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for bill clinton's campaign and then in 92 she became a leader in the acorn movement and then you say, and i quote, the prospect of a woman president is as exciting and fundamental ways barack obama's candidacy was in 2,008. do you believe most african-american female voters feel that way about hillary clinton's campaign? are they ready? >> some are. she sounds like shirley chisholm. it itchisholm. it is as important for me to run as a woman as it is a run as an african-american. put someone i have been out of the campaign come i spent a lot of time covering the campaign, there are a lot, particularly of black women
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over a certain age.a certain age. women over 60, my benchmark black or white or latino very excited about this idea for a lot of women regardless of race if you like the country has kicked that and it is now time for this next big step forward and are progress is a modern country, forward to have this opportunity. it's a powerful message women across the racial divide. as you find pockets of black women, in general black women under 16 is still have feeling about clinton because of 2,008 command i do fine and occasionally. and ii do that. >> do you think that it can be overcome? >> a smart campaign can overcome it. hillary does not have a tremendous overwhelming advantage. far and away is multiple
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candidate and it is the reason she maintains an advantage over bernie sanders even then his base is not the 1st. it is a huge advantage for her. the question is not issues and nominee which you get the vast majority of african-american votes, she would. the question is will people lineup for the opportunity? >> and i will ask you to put on your predicting had. what do you think will happen? do you think that she will be able to get the obama coalition to be as excited for her candidacy? >> i have toi have to say, i
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think that it will be hard for any candidate to get that same level of excitement, only because the audacity of hope which was the name of barack obama's book, but this idea that you could take a one-time united states senator, young man with a name like that is middle name is hussein his 1st name rhymes with osama you can take that improbable of a person and put him in the white house. i think with such an emotional catharsis, such as a likely improbable thing that is set up the expectations of this president. and for a lot of young activists that were involved , the comedown was quick. barack obama had not even been president for one year when the liberals started fighting and critiquing and attacking him for that. liverpool enough not closing
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gitmo, not ending don't tell the -- don't ask don't tell fast enough. outside of the bernie sanders moment my don't see that happening. it willit will be a much more cynical cycle, pragmatic cycle. i think hillary clinton can win that fight demographically. the democrats have such an advantage. >> host: to the electoral college? >> guest: in terms of the demographics of the country. it is becoming more brown with just increases the national advantage. republicans have to create such a high bar: such a high percentage of white voters that it is getting
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harder and harder for them to get into the white house. they can win a congressional district that way. it is hard to win the white house and you better than ten or eight or 9 percent of black voters. very hard to win that way. >> which leads me to my next question which is to ask you to switch sides now and go to their party. let's say ranks previous to the head of the republican national committee call one of the republican candidates retains you and says, look, isays, look, i want to increase my support within the african-american community. what would you advise that candidate to do? >> republicans need to find someone with the credibility in the strengthen the voice
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to repudiate not just the messaging of some of the media arc of the establishment which remains very hot, rush limbaugh ask, the world it can be just really thrilled and rejectionist. that african-americans have felt this for a long time as well. the republican party has a base issue in that they have become the home of what is the be the southern democrats. that is now there base. in the south it is hard to find a white democrat or black republican. the preponderance of black. they are probably republican. they have to lick their base in the eye. we are not going to disparage racial groups as a
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whole. if you go back and look at what jackie robinson said about barry goldwater he said, this made it impossible for me to talk to my own people, party. the great jackie robinson, he cannot even speak of. i think public concern a dangerous. i would say that the tone has to change. that republicans who get it. when you hear them speak, the language of the old wood party. they have to get that edge out of there. if they do that,that, they are taking a risk that they will lose some of their base. a republican party not
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speaking to those anxieties. >> i agree with you, very interesting to see a candidate like: powell who is a moderate republican, there are very few of those around, but that would be interesting race, to see a moderate republican, how many african-american votes he could get, but i guess we are not going to see that. >> a lot of republicans presume that ben carson is that person. butperson. but been carson speaks a lot of the same language. you have someone really rising in the polls that is
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not going to attract much support from african-americans. i think iti think is disappointed. some of their latino candidates. the language really would have to still change. he can't just be coming out of a person of color's mouth. >> and that is going to be the party. the leaders do understand. they understand that they must diversify the party. confront some element of the base and media. >> that is exactly what the democrats did with the dlc. they wanted to keep their base the spread out, reach out more to working-class
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whites, to moderate republicans, independents. do you think the republican party could be as successful by keeping their base is the democrats have been over the past several elections. >> analogies. but the democratic party it was absolutely that, sideline the liberal part of their base. to silence the left. truism of politics. democrats and the establishment and republicans fear there's. repudiate (their base than democrats.
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you syllables now coming back ideologically. sidelined for 40 plus years. >> more today and anti- a republican, the republican party is somehow hostile to minority interest, is not accepting of diverse groups, or is it more of a pro- democrat, democrats have delivered, supported the voting rights act.
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democrats delivered civil rights. >> it is aa combination, but i think it is more the former. the parties have not always delivered and that there is a taking for granted of the conspiracy that has voted 9010 in their favor. there is a presumption among democrats that the black vote will be there. it is just a matter of get out the vote and show up in the african-american community and gator cameras out. i think that this confrontation between black lives matter and that
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sanders campaign is one example. open primaries and next primaries, iprimaries i predict that you see more movement of that african-american vote only because i think there is particularly the black political class are very content of that power works. you here a lot of that the spread out, but there is very little spread into the republican party. i can tell you, i have spoken with republican operatives who will be working specifically to try to recruit them into the party. a war against the presumptions and the actual words coming out. >> it is very difficult.
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>> it is often said that black liberals in the democratic party have nowhere to go. do you see an independent candidate running from that wing of the party? or, perhaps, a third-party being created? >> the united states is set of two-party system. occasionally you will have the one-off governor jesse ventura or bernie sanders the system seems to be technically -- suffer african-americans, you have
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fat point that have a pragmatism african-americans understood the democrats were incredibly hostile and did not want them around. there was no other party that any power. republicans almost did not exist african-americans have always pragmatically chosen democratic republican party based upon that interest. if tomorrow going to my would wager: powell do pretty well. thirty or 4 percent better.
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a respected figure is attitudinal presentation is welcoming. it is aspirational. that is just the way he talks. he has some issues with the rack. >> you have a chaptera chapter called the 1st black president. >> talks about bill clinton. >> it is clearly barack obama, boys interesting is why she said that. it was around the time when bill clinton was attempting. jesse had a unique positioning, a former southern governor or you can talk to both of them that
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apprentice episode managed to nab. he he comes in and tries to use the same language to talk country slavery was wrong when he was in africa. and in the see his sexuality , the other thing signifiers, blackness, single moms a man child in the promised land. and youand you have this aspect misdemeanor. he can go into a black church and get on the pulpit and sounds like a preacher. had he been black and jesse jackson white bill clinton will have been a pastor a preacher.
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he was an aspect, i felt comfortable. >> and bill clinton didn't have to do that. is often said during the 1st run. how do you think it encountered his electability? >> it's interesting. it was tailor-made for him to be the 1st black president. banner, the land was brought up, white america and a convergence with white america and white anxiety. he perfectly communicated white anxiety. you could explain that in a
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way that did not feel like activation. it felt like familiarity. so i think that barack obama have that convergence that did not make him really perfect for the job. at least angry black man in america. >> i don'ti don't think i've ever seen barack obama be angry ever. >> this image of nothing, this perfect little girl. like he is so calm. i don't know how he does it. >> it has helped him a great deal. manipulating the political scene. >> anything you want to add? the only have a few more minutes. >> no, the questions have been brilliant.
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it is important, you know sometimes we have to different ways of looking at jerez. african-americans want to indulge in this conversation about race because we live race every day. aa police officer, that feeling, that not in your stomach. it will follow you everywhere you go, whereas the white americans, brightness had a meeting and then embrace. you know how most who don't live the race and she really rejects the idea. there is a lot more reluctance to talk about it, it, and the feeling of accusation when it is part of that behalfthey have to get past and come to a happy medium can discuss some of the things of the past. otherwise thatotherwise that
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divide that fracture will remain in the country for. founded on the notion that free invite had a meeting. that was written in the constitution. clinton administration, did not win out to well. heavy have this conversation seems that many people want? >> president obama said it needs to have the individual level, i think he has learned the lesson. itit is really difficult to see who would have the stature, he was not able to make it happen. and so many figures in the african-american side of the ledger have been commission is a race man, raise person. so i don't know.
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i don't mean to be pessimistic. i think it is going to have to happen on an individual level. >> well, there is an old saying, you have given us a whole lot today. i am very appreciative. thank you very much for your wisdom, knowledge. the book is fracture. barack obama, the clintons, the racial divide and i encourage everybody. >> thank you so much. ..


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