tv After Words Gretchen Carlson Be Fierce CSPAN October 29, 2017 12:00pm-1:01pm EDT
let the south handle this. no, no, we have to deal with this. that's one of the finest moments of grant when he steps forward to defend the rights of the free men. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. s >> next on booktv's "after words" former fox news host gretchen carlson discusses sexual harassment in the workplace. she's . she's interviewed by sally quinn, "washington post" columnist and "on faith" founding editor. >> host: so it's good that we don't have anything to talk
about today. >> guest: that's the understatement of the century. >> host: why don't we start out by talking about harvey weinstein? that sort of the story that everybody's talking about right now. and every day some new atrocity occurs. yesterday or the day before whenever it was three more people came forward with the idea that he had raped them. this has been going on for years and years and years, and there were eight settlements against him. obviously everyone in the company knew about it. i have to say i wonder about his wife who i gather last night announced that she was leaving him finally. how she could possibly not have heard about this. but how do you think this happened? how was this allowed to go on and on and on and if nobody ever speak out until now? >> guest: because as as a sociy
and as a culture we protect harassers. if somebody -- >> host: y? >> guest: that is the $20 million question, why? why do we do that? is a because we're protecting our own jobs? is it because we are protecting a person in power? i think those are the two top reasons. but now the floodgates have been opened, i just get so much credit to the women who were able to tell their stories. and by the weight eight settlements, there's probably more. eight that have been reported. >> host: but that doesn't mean there were only eight people that he molested or assaulted or raped. there were three of the people who were raped who have come forward who have not reached settlement. what is the statute of limitation on rate? >> guest: rape is a crime, so
that is an longer statute of limitations. with regard to sexual harassment you don't have a lot of time to file a claim. it's different in every state and depends on whether not it's a federal violation or state violation. that's another thing we need to look into. there so many ways in which we should look into lost 12 women, more women come forward. especially with the issue like sexual harassment where you don't switch on the light and say i will come forward. you don't have a lot of time. it's less than two years. >> host: you said power and jobs, but that doesn't excuse the men and the company and the people who were on the board, the lawyers and all of the people who had to be involved in the settlements with those eight women had to know about it. why did you not say anything? and who are they? i want their names on the front page of the "new york times" and the "washington post." >> guest: we have to fill
every newspaper that ever existed because it's not just that company. it's not just the company where it's happening. they are covering this up in hundreds and maybe thousands of companies across this country and across the world. the big question that you ask is why do we protect the harasser? what i found out is its that always the most powerful person at the company that we protect. we sometimes even protect a low-level employee who is a harasser. i'll give an example. somebody comes into a job and they are worn to come be careful of joe, he's been there for 30 years. he has a rude sense of humor. sure enough the woman finds out to joe really is. she goes to complain and who do they protect? joe. he's not a simple person to the functioning of the company. he's not the ceo of the company. they protect joe and that women is phased out. so it's at every level. i have to tell you i feel buoyed
by the hard weinstein story. >> host: absolutely. not just you. we all do. i mean, i was horrified but i've also thrilled that this came out, that he was outed, that he got fired from his company, the still take the name, his name off the company. that is going into therapy and thrilled his wife was leaving him. i think that he should be shunned and i think this is a huge step forward for all of us who have had these experiences, and we all have. >> guest: and it's a step forward for the enablers, the people that you mentioned who were also be called out. they are going to feel the shame that all of those women have felt, and they shouldn't have. those people are going to feel shame. enablers are huge part of this
problem and a huge part of this solution. actually sexual-harassment training in company should focus more on enablers that on almost nothing else but we should focus on how do we get the courage to the enabler to not be enabled and to also come forward? it's crucial. >> host: i sent you earlier,, as i was reading your book i just got matter and madder and madder and madder. makes you crazy and you keep thinking this can't be happening. this can be happening. he can't be happening today and get it is. the reason where here's because of your experience at fox news and your sexual-harassment suit against roger ailes. i know that you can't talk about it, but i can. so i just wanted to read in your complaint, yes unlawfully
retaliated against carlson and sabotage her crib because she refused the sexual offenses and complained about severe and pervasive sexual-harassment. ailes retaliated against carlson in various ways as described below include my terminating her, among other things ostracizing, marginalizing and shunning her after making clear to her that these quote problems unquote would not have existed and could be solved if she had a sexual relationship with him. when carlson met with ailes to discuss the discriminatory treatment to which she was been subjected, ailes stated coat i think you and i should that a sexual relationship a long time ago. and then you would be good and better and i would be good and better, adding that sometimes problems are easier to solve that way. carlson rebuffed ailes sexual demands at the meeting and nine months later than five ended her career at fox news.
well, first of all, he was so repulsive. the idea that someone like roger ailes could even think that he could get away with that, that he would be attractive enough to anyone to even take him up. were it not for the outrage of what he was assuming, but one of the things that the reason that you can't talk about it is you did resolve this lawsuit and you reached a $20 million settlement. as far as i'm concerned that was not enough. but why can't you talk about it? i mean, is that not part of the problem in a way that in order to reach a settlement you had to agree not to talk about it? >> guest: right. and just as a caveat, with regard to the resolution, and
giving all that money away to my gift of courage fun to help other women. i want to be clear about that and all the proceeds from the book are going to gift of courage. settlement, yesterday this is a way in which our culture has decided to resolve these kinds of cases. over 90% of sexual-harassment cases and up -- into an settlement. what does that mean? that means that the woman pretty much never works in her chosen career ever again and she can never talk about it. she is gagged. how else do we resolve sexual-harassment suits? we put in arbitration clauses which makes it a secret proceeding. so again nobody ever finds out about it if you file a complaint. you can never talk about it ever. nobody ever knows what happened to you and in most cases your all but terminated from the company and the proprietor in many cases is left to still work in same position which he was harassing you.
so this is the way our society has decided to resolve sexual-harassment cases, to gag women so that we can fool ourselves that we have come so far in 2017. reason we think we have come so far is because we are not hearing about these cases. but the reason we're not hearing about the cases is because the women are silenced, either through settlement or through force arbitration. >> host: suppose you would said, i'm bringing this case and i want to settle but i don't want this silence clause. would they have said go away? >> guest: they would have. i was given the benefit of being able to talk about this issue openly and ship of the people's stories and talk about ways in which i think we should change the laws and necessary conversation right now. that is rare. >> host: in order to, , what do
we do to change this from happening to someone else were you can file a sexual harassment claim, charge, did you can reach a settlement but the settlement does not include silencing you? how do we go about changing that? >> guest: this is a work i'm doing on capitol hill is we have to take force arbitration clauses out of employment contracts are at least take the secrecy out of it. i'm working to get a bipartisan bill on that. because sexual-harassment is apolitical. before some harasses you they don't ask you what party you belong to. this is what republicans and democrats should care about this equally. for their daughters, granddaughters, in the sister of the meeting many of them privately to try and get them on board to take the secrecy out of it. so how does that change the landscape? that means if your sexual-harassment, then you can file a public complaint and you
can have a jury trial which is your seventh amendment right. the way it works now is if you file a complaint, it's a secret and you go to arbitration were only 20% of the time does the victim actually win. it's not like an opencourt system besides secrecy. you can't call the same amount of witnesses to the depositions are different. there's no appeal, and the people hearing cases are retired lawyers and judges who may not be as adept at anderson sexual-harassment in this particular generation. >> host: or they may. that's the problem. >> guest: there mostly men. >> host: that's what i'm saying. >> guest: so maybe they will not side with the victim is what i'm saying. so we need to start there. if i can just get a bipartisan bill to pass, it takes the secrecy out of this. that's a warning shot to companies that can't hide this
kind of behavior anymore, right? >> host: explained to me why this isn't a no-brainer. when you go up to the the hilld you talk to members of congress and you say i want this arbitration bill, i want this changed, why would anyone say no? >> guest: because they will say, number one reason is because democrats are in favor of this and republicans support big business. >> host: so basically do they say they're there little girl, we're supporting big business? how do they phrase it? >> guest: they're taking the meetings with me. they are listening and i think that they are thinking long and hard about the ramifications of their own children. this is what i did this whole thing. or their wives or the sisters.
some have told me their wives have been sexually harassed. i mean i think this is why people are so frosted with politicians in general. is that they speak out of a lot of sides of their mouth. on the one hand, i think rationally they look at this and they realize they should be on board. but then have a whole nother constituency have to try to -- >> host: i mean, talk about silence. the big business guys, i'm sure they are guys, were going to talk to their republican senators or congressmen, they will lobby them and they will say you can't do this. and the reason you can't do this is because we are sexual harassing these women and they bosses and we will lose a lot of money. your point is that the only reason they can be against it. >> guest: the argument about arbitration is that it's cheaper for the employee. it arrived are a bunch of
lawyers and horse and go through a long process of a trial. that's not really true. there are a lot of cost associate with arbitration. also, the biggest thing is that big companies will say that we are doing a service to unclog the courts because the courts are already overworked. they care about the court. this is a way to solve small business disputes by putting them into arbitration. those are the argument that are given to the employees. here's the problem. when you start a new job you are just happy to have the work and get the paycheck. you are not thinking about an arbitration clause and not thinking you're going to get any in to any kind of dispute. i i know i thought i would never be there. when you do and you someday realize you don't have your seventh amendment right anymore, that's a daunting day because you realize you really don't have any option and your rights have been taken away. that's what i'm explained explo these members of congress.
i'm optimistic about it. >> host: this was that your first experience. have a couple experiences you had before when you were 22, u.s. two or three experiences that were pretty disgusting. >> guest: unfortunately, this isn't my first day at the rodeo. it was when i was in miss america actually and maybe the blessing of that was i a built tough skin. because when you cover something like that suddenly my resume to be a contra violinist, stanford grad also attended oxford evaporated. i was just dumped. and so -- i had built thick skin a lot during that year but towards the end of the year i start reading television executives because our village this was a great i wanted to try. one executive was so nice to me all day long. he made so many phone calls from it and we went to dinner and i thought wow, this is going to be
a great beginning for me. when we got into the back seat of the car service to bring the back to my friends apartment, suddenly he was on top of me, -- with his tongue down my throat. and i remember being panicked and thinking how the hell am i going to get out of this? ice cream for the driver to stop, and opened the door and i got out not knowing at all where i was, and got to my friends apartment and just lost it in emotion. and with so many women have gone through, what did i do, why would he do this to me? was a really tight help me? all that just goes away. i never ever spoke to him ever again so i guess he really didn't want to help me. unfortunately a couple of weeks later i was in los angeles and is meeting with a high-powered publicist. i was a go-getter. i was knocking all the doors trying to get a career started,
and, unfortunately, i was in the car again with him and he took my head with his hand, forcefully jammed my head into his crotch so hard that i couldn't breathe. >> host: that's a really attractive image. >> guest: what he wanted me to do. >> host: better than flour -- flowers and candy. >> guest: i never really spoke openly about that story until recently. but more importantly, it was a friend when us i was telling hr those stories to said to me, you realize those were both assaults? i i said what are you talking about? she said that's assault, and i had never defined it that way
before. i think leaks volumes about how we normalize this even as women in culture. that we think we can overcome it and we just put it aside and we don't really acknowledge it for what it is. it was actually natasha who told me that. >> host: that's a great story. >> guest: she is one of the alleged trump victims. >> host: white quite at you exn her story. >> guest: she tells her story in "be fierce" because she was good. she came forward all those years later. she is a people magazine reporter who is at mar-a-lago doing a story about d impending birth of the president's latest child with melania. they were together, and she said that when melania went to change or close, that he took her side into the room and forcefully
kissed her against her will. she actually took yourself off of that beat because, but she told people, which is huge and it's my vice in the book. you need to tell people try what she told people magazine at the time. >> guest: and i'm saying in general, women should tell people, human beings what happened. because we still live in a he said/she said culture. so she's one when interviewing her for my book when it's telling her what it happened to me, , she was when he told me. >> host: she came forward with her story. >> guest: she came forward because she was listening to one of the debates where the president has said that he had never forcefully kissed anyone against their will. and she thought i don't want to be silent anymore. >> host: so she came out with
it and she's been friends with melania and then she ran into melania on the street and they kissed and hugged and melania said we have seen in a a long time, where have you been? after she came up with a story, melania denied ever having -- they never ran into each other, didn't happen. so i mean come what you say about the wives who are enabling their husbands to do this kind of thing? melania is a perfect example. i don't know about harvey weinstein wife, but as a soda can imagine she didn't have some inkling of this after ten years of marriage. >> guest: what i would say to them is i hope they can find weight in the hearts to also be fierce and to stand up for who they are as women and give them more respect. >> host: you mentioned jane fonda has had several experiences. what were her experiences? >> guest: just came out at 7090 sold said she was raped
earlier in her career. and she's jane fonda and she's been abused and she had never told those stories before. this is the culture we live in where these kinds of stories are stuffed down, and women are made to feel ashamed that something happened to them when in essence they were shamed, right? and so we have to turn this issue totally in the opposite direction. but i do since it is happening now. >> host: i do, too. gwenyth paltrow came forth and so did angelina jolie. and i to say god love merrill streep for speaking out against harvey weinstein who she is worked with. the issue of shame really fascinates me. i have had as you can imagine as all women have, i've had a number of experiences like this. one when i was 19 when senator john tower took me, was supposed
to take me to lunch and then ended up with the den and i should've known better, and then went in and took me to this bar where i shouldn't have gone, and then we got in the cap and a jump in the cab and he tried to rape me in the back of the cab. i was so ashamed. i cried for days. i didn't tell anybody for a couple of years, and then later when he came up for, but i started telling people. when he came up as to be nominated at secretary of defense, i had these two fbi agents come to the house and say, we've heard about your experience and were checking on his resume. you tell us about it? i said this is totally confidential. i said you know, i happen to know that it's not confidential because i worked for the "washington post" and we get our stores from you guys. as it turned out he was voted down, and nancy kassebaum, the only relevant -- republican vote against them because she had heard my story. then poor and need help who is a
perfect example of this didn't have my experience or background. she did know better as you talk to the fbi and she told her story and, of course, they subpoenaed her and she ended up on capitol hill, and her life was ruined. i could again and need help. her life was ruined. she's now a punchline. she is now anita hill and that's all you know about her. never nevermind she's a distingd lawyer. i had a casting couch experience with the producer hired me to be the girlfriend of the movie flipper about the dolphin and he said literally, but you have to sleep with me if you want the park. i said well, i'll have to ask my father, and i didn't get a call back. i had the producer of 60 minutes sent me over to london to cover the wedding and said i'm going to make you start and he flew over and helped me in makeup and hair and all that kind of thing. they took me to my room one night and through the against
the bed, on the bed. you know, these are stories i never told right away, but then i did write a book about my cbs experience and mentioned that cbs won, but i never told the john tower story because i was ashamed. i was ashamed because i thought, and i just said you, i shouldn't have agreed to lunch with him. i was 19. i shouldn't have agreed to go to dinner when you drag me across the street to the nightclub, i shouldn't have gone to some i should have managed to keep them out of the camp it was my fault. it was my fault. but, i mean, i still feel that and is still feel the same way about the producer of 60 minutes. what was i thinking? he was going to help me be this big star and a just turn out on television and i had no experience. but i should've known better. it was my fault that i like him on. >> guest: but it wasn't. >> host: igc the john towers
think i still feel ashamed even to this day. how do women get over the shame of thinking that they, , we all want to look attractive. we all want, i wanted to look sexy when i go out at night and dress up and do my hair and makeup and i want people to think i'm attractive. but where is the moment when you cross the line where you are coming on or you are asking for it, as opposed to just want to be an attractive women? >> guest: i i don't think women are asking to be assaulted. what i say in the book is that you can be wearing a short skirt, hospital scrubs or army fatigues. it doesn't matter. you should not feel any shame, no woman should, but shaming is a potent force. >> host: how do we get over the shame part of it? >> guest: we talk about it. now we are seeing, id and seen some people say on twitter well,
gwenyth paltrow didn't come forward right away so we should discount what she is saying now. no. this is how it starts. we should never shame a woman who comes forward at all. i don't care when she comes forward, ever. we should then realize that as a swimmer start to come forward, even if these episodes happened 30, 40, 50 years ago, i don't care when it happened as long as you start coming forward. you encourage other women to come forward when it's happening to them now. that's how it works. it's a chain of inspiration. one woman at a time we bolster the courage. courage is that something you just suddenly wake up one day and say i think i'm going to do this monumental thing. it's a process. it's a process of time. it's not a light switch. that's one of the greatest myths i've seen my social media, is
welcome why did you wait so long? why did you wait until it was all over? that is such a naïve and ignorant question. because you don't realize, you don't realize where women are still in society. we are still labeled troublemakers. we are still labeled you just can't take a joke. where still labeled that the word. we're still not believed, and the best one is that we just bring all these cases for because we want to be seen. >> host: right. like and need a hill. >> guest: i have never met any woman that i spoken to who that was the reason for wanting to come forward. >> host: like for me it was over 40 years ago, with the john towers think, over 50 years ago, and i never told the story until last year when i did tina brown's women in world summit. i was on the with kerry washington, and inform thousands
of women, and i started telling the story and i thought i was going to lose it. i almost started to cry because i never told that story before. at this point in my life, and so i can only imagine, and that was, i waited so long to tell that story. does that make it less legitimate because i waited that long? >> guest: no. >> host: but that's the point. it's shayne. you don't want to talk about it. you somehow feel conveyors. you don't want to bring that sort of attention on yourself if you want people to think your troublemaker or complain or whatever and, but i agree with you. i think the idea of people talking about it when it happens and telling people, the feminist point of view, and i agree with this, if you say it happened, it happened. it should be done.
however, there is this other side of the story, and it happens occasionally on college campuses, and that is what happens if somebody is falsely accused? this is an issue in a think it's something that we can't pretend doesn't exist. i happen to do this because a close friend of mine son was one of those boys at duke university who got thrown out for harassing this woman. turned out that she made up the whole story and lied, his life was ruined. he was thrown out of college and all that sort of thing. i have a lot of friends of mine who had sons in college the basically say you want to keep a stack of permission slips on your bedside table with the pen and make sure the people, women sign it if they're going to sex with you. how do you protect your signs and how, i mean, you talk a lot in your book about your children what to tell your children and how to make sure the boys understand what the rules are
and how far you can go and what you can do. but there is another side to it, which is sometimes the boys are innocent. i think in a lot of cases when you're talking about men sexually harassing women particularly in the workplace it's a whole different situation. >> guest: i acknowledge in my book that yes, there are false accusations. however, it's a very small percentage of the problem, one in four or five girls to be sexual assaulted on a college campus. that doesn't make me feel good with kids were preteen no any parent is about to send the children offers when the races under a college campus tour with this book because you have to get to kids young to form and shape their opinions in a way which they look at the world. one expert told me that if you start trying to change the way men perceive women when they're in the '40s and 50s, forget it, it's too late. the main mission is to get to the kids at a young age so that
their building the perceptions and respect for women while they are going up. i i do a whole chapter on parenting. it's essential. i have worked more for my son and have for my daughter because i want him, when he gets into the workforce in 12 years or so, i went to look at his female colleagues and respect them the same one which he looks at me now and respects me. my kids were the most important decision. when i jump off that cliff, the only thing i was thinking about is how will my kids be? probably the biggest decision of my life to do what i did. and i would not have done it if i thought i would have harmed my children. and in the end how could i ever know how any day would be after that day with no safety net? i have no way of knowing.
i have now seen my children get that gift of courage themselves. specifically in my daughter who was looking for courage in certain aspects of her life, and when she went to school, on the first day after that summer, happened to be the same day my resolution was nothing she came home from school and said mommy, a lot of people ask me what happened to you over the summer. she said, mom, i was so proud to be able to say that you are my mom. >> host: that's great. what was the tipping point for you? obviously you put up with it and put up with it and put up with it, and the most insidious part was, here you were getting higher ratings anybody else and to all these incredible interviews. you are obviously a hard worker and you at the top of your game, and yet they started lowering your salary and taking your show
away from you and moving into a different timeslot and taking the interviews away from you. was there a moment where you just said, i'm mad as hell, i'm not going to take it anymore? >> guest: sally, first of all thank you for acknowledging all that. thank you. it's a very lonely experience, so i thank you for giving me that credit. when i finally realized that what i i had worked so hard for for more than 25 years towards, when i finally realize that was going to come to an end for me, i realized that i had to do this not so much for myself but for any of the women ever going to come after me. and that i wanted the next generation to not have to face the same indignities that i have. that was really what it was. it was seen that what i had
worked so hard for was going to go away. >> host: was it gradual? i mean, i mean, i know sometimes when i make decision is something i mulled all over fog time and then suddenly i will think wait a minute, i'm going to do this or not going to do this or i can't take this anymore, whatever else it is tragic i can't talk specific about all my emotions all these years of what it he went throuh there, but what i can say is in general terms, for women that i often think that we are so used to working extra hard that we feel like we can change the dynamic of witches were even a little bit more hard, right? you keep hoping that they will finally see you for who you really are. i often think actually that stronger women are worse victims because of that. we are so used to banging our
heads against the brick wall to get ahead and we persevere against all odds that we keep fighting instead of saying something. that's the dynamic that needs to change. >> host: it must have been humiliating for you. what about your colleagues at fox? didn't people say, i wonder why gretchen just lost the show that had the highest rating on television. >> guest: you find out who your friends are. >> host: and how did that happen? were you disappointed in some of your friends? were you surprised at the support you got from some of the people? >> guest: i can't talk about the people at fox, but people can read about all that. >> host: i know you can't talk about it, but just in terms of how people just in general how
people behave when they saw what was happening to you. >> guest: it was really fascinating. i'll tell you a couple of things. i heard from people i have not heard from in many years that i never expected to hear from. that was amazing. >> host: you mean supported? >> guest: yes. some of my own neighbors never reach out to me. that was the flip side of it. some people came up to me after time had passed and said, we just did want to trouble you, we didn't want to bother you. we didn't know what to say. sometimes that happens when people die. people cite a sympathy card, just the name. my father had we said to me when you send a card you should always write memories of the person because that's what the person wants to see, not just a name. i am not by any stretch of imagination equating a death with what i went through. it's not the same as seeing someone -- what i'm talking about, the phenomenon is a saint in the sense that people don't
know what to say to you so they say nothing. >> host: you do go through the stages of grief. >> guest: and ptsd which exactly what you're talking about that you are still expensive. i'll bring it full circle to the man who jammed my head into his crotch, guess what? 25 years later i saw him walking down the hallways of my place of employment and i panicked. and i ran up and slammed my office door and started sweating. i was shaking. this guy was going to come in to my office and put my head back in his crotch, but this is what happens to you. 40 years ago for you, 25 years ago for me. you don't forget that moment of sheer panic in being out of control and somebody violating two. and i mustered up the courage after couple of moments to crack my door open a little bit to look at in the holy to see if he was there and then it ran as fast as he could do the
elevator. >> host: do you think he even remembered it? >> guest: probably not, if he was doing all the time, you know? it's normalizing it within culture. it brings us back to enablers. it's like support for people within companies to say that is not acceptable what you just did. imagine if billy bush had said that in the donald trump tape. i'm not going to stand for this, mr. trump, at the time, i don't talk that way to women. you see, if somebody would just do that in a corporation -- >> host: there's no way he would have done that. he was this young guy and is trying to get ahead and donald trump was donald trump and it just wasn't going to happen tragic now i think that's going to start happening. i really do. especially with our younger people. millennials want to see that
their hard work pays off in a good way. they like to see in results. and i really believe that our younger people especially want to get rid of this indignity. i really do. i think with more and more women coming forward, that is so empowering to women of all ages, especially our young women are just coming into the workforce. they are seeing what happens when other people are speaking out and they are saying that they have a voice. >> host: when you look at politicians and you see, let's start with jack kennedy, my husband was a very close friend of jack kennedy. he and his wife were, and they would have dinner two or three nights at the white house. my husband was ben bradley and he was at "newsweek" swears he never heard any of the rumors about kennedy because the for them were close friends, and so
wasn't something that came up. he didn't know about it. later when he started reading all of these stories, he was really shocked. this was after kennedy was killed, and shocked and disappointed. and then the story came out about the woman that he had an affair with in the white house when she was 21, and he had forced her to have oral sex in the white house pool with some of the white house staffers and yet use this person he was revered all over the world by everyone, and he was this extraordinary man, no question about it, but he was a predator of the worst kind. >> guest: of that makes him not an extraordinary man. >> host: that's right. and then you had bill clinton and the women who are the first to stand up and say, are were the first to stand up and say,
if she says that happen, it happened come suddenly bill clinton, all the women were liars, it didn't happen. he was a predator. then you have donald trump, and bill clinton is still revered, and you have donald trump who is so blatantly out there with this that he even talks about it openly. in fact, while these married talking about it and coming onto women like this people magazine reporter. and 37, welcome the majority of people in this country, he was elected president despite that. and that the people who were interviewed said well, that's locker room talk, or melania say that's just boy talk. it's not. it's not boy talk.
it's not locker room talk. i mean, i don't know any man who talks that way. i just don't. at least i don't think i do but i have been an a locker room lately. but the point is that he is revered by many people in this country and they don't seem to care about that. what do did you do about changg the culture in the sense that they will look at donald trump and say simply that is not acceptable? and anybody, but particularly the president of the united states because it is that with the mothers of his supporters are saying to their little boys, this is the president, you know, he can do what he wants to do, so could you. >> guest: it's a terrible example for our children. and i think, the way i handle that person is i showed my children that tape. because i thought it was a teachable moment for them.
i know that millions of other parents across the country were grappling with what the heck to do with that, and hope they used it as a teachable moment. i wrote an op-ed about that butt of his elected and said this, to me i don't really have a damn about any policy that you are trying to pass on what party you belong to. to me human decency supersedes all of that, and that tape showed me where human decency was not. and that is what i shared with my children. >> host: did they understand what he was talking about? >> guest: yes. in schools now they talk about terminology. did i i want to show to the? no, but i felt it was imperative to show it to them. whether or not people think that tax policy or immigration policy or any of that is more important
than human decency, that's one with it and a free country and they can vote for whomever they want to. i worry that those comments have set us back dramatically, but aside from that on optimistic with where we're heading because of the other stories coming out. >> host: i wonder if, what's happening now with harvey weinstein will make other men, women and of the men just look at this and say, this is enough. this has gone on too long. we can't do this anymore. have you heard any, so recent, but have you -- >> guest: i see it and i think a huge part of the equation, i talk a lot about this in the book, an entire chapter dedicated to men who defend -- >> host: i i was going to get o
that because of what you know who are the men who are out there fighting with -- it seems to me i read george clooney had said something about harvey weinstein. >> guest: he did. ben affleck so far but the mint in the book range from journalists to men who have made this their life mission to go in companies and teach them to be more equitable with women in a way which they treat them with more respect. there's tons of men out there who are doing work for women. here's why it's so crucial. the responsibility of fixing this problem should not only be on the shoulders of women. it's not only our responsibility to make workplace safer for us. it's actually more of a mains issue then the women's issue. so we need these meant to be on our side to help make change, and as long as we still have 94% of fortune 500 companies run by men, we especially need them to be on our side in the way which they pay us come in the way which they promoters, in the way
in which the decision was not we get a seat in the boardroom, and the way which they may or may not sexual harass us. so men's voices are critical to making change, and that's what i feel even though it's been only a couple of days, to see men come out and say what they been saying, we must support these women and we must stop enabling this. that's huge. it's like a cascading effect, right? i really believe that we are on the precipice of major change with regard to this issue. >> host: i think harvey weinstein may have been the tipping point in a way. it was just so egregious and is it's been going on for so long and it is been kept quiet for so long and then suddenly it just defies the imagination that this could've been happening in this day and age and that people were accepting this and enabling
this. one of the things that i think, in terms of fighting this, is to sort of create an atmosphere of a creep factor. when hillary clinton was talking about donald trump hovering around her during the debate, she said i wondered what i should just say just get away from me, you creep. because he was a creep, you know? on a creep would say what he said on access hollywood tapes. suddenly it's kind of like smoking. at one point smoking was really cool, now you look at somebody smokes and you think that poor guy, he's addicted, he's a week, or a woman, and they're going to get cancer and they're going -- our whole attitude toward smoking has changed. you would simply look at the man
who would do, shut a woman's face into his crotch and say you're a creep and i'm going to tell everybody what a creep you are. and so these guys would become even if they didn't realize that it was wrong or they didn't care or they felt entitled to whatever, that they would be so terrified of being called a creep, are worse. i kept my imagination last night when i was reading your book and getting really angry and i thought we ought to have every newspaper should have the creep of the week. [laughing] >> guest: i love that idea, but it actually think you were smoking analogy is a really good one. do you mind if i use that sometime? >> host: it's all yours. you could also have creep of the week, to. >> guest: it's a great analogy because i see that in my kids. they look at smoking now and mom, that person smokes. so outrageous to them. i'm going to use that as my
barometer for this is your sexual harassment and i'm going to hope that in the next few years for ten years or 20 years that that's the way which we will be looking at it. >> host: there was a guy who was sort of a very powerful guy in washington, still around, and was sort of well-known for putting his hands on women's thighs under the dinner table at these fancy washington dinners and nobody ever said anything. we all used to talk about it. he never did anything more than that, and it was creepy and was embarrassing, but it was kind of like you're in the middle of this black-tie dinner with candles and everything else and the guy starts, puts his hand on your side. you just don't know whether to say just cut it out, you know. with even so shocking, but it was kind of a joke. but i can't look at this guy and not think about that.
>> guest: you can still tell them. you told your other story. look at somebody like taylor swift. she's in her 20s. do you think she wanted to take time off of her world tour to testify in a sexual harassment and groping case? probably not but i'm so glad she did. because she is sending a a message, especially to young women that she's not going to take that crap, right? she is the person who is standing up and saying get your hands off my thigh. how dare you grope my butt, right? that's what she said. that i think also played into this whole narrative of how we get to this tipping point. if i jump off the cliff and then susan fowler came out at uber and more people in silicon valley and then you had the sterling jewelers case and then you entertain us with angela actress, now you have harvey weinstein, look at how far we've
come in just 15 months. >> host: so here's the question. in terms of getting this to stop, there are two areas, two issues. one of them is that the guys will be scared. they will be scared to do because they will be called out and also because they will be humiliated and people will think they are creeps. but the other thing is how do you get them to become decent human beings? how do you get them to realize that this is not decent behavior? and by the way, some of these people are evangelicals and christians, you know, and religious people who tolerate it the most. you mentioned that briefly in your book. >> guest: days of horrific story in my book about a young woman was allegedly abused by her -- she just came out. >> host: this is not an unusual story among religious congregation. certainly we've seen the sexual
harassment situation in the catholic church. you can stop people from, people will not commit crimes because they are afraid they will get caught but only because they are afraid they will get caught. so these guys may just not do because they are afraid they will get caught and be embarrassed, but how do you get them to realize this is wrong? >> guest: this goes back to original point of how we raise them. the mothers in the files or whatever the family dynamic is, single-parent or partners together. kids see and hear everything. i have even found myself over the last 15 months since my story cannot really reevaluating how i am parenting and exactly what i say, what's my dynamic with my husband. because that's what they are seeing on a daily basis, right? they are getting cues from that. also our schools.
why did that study come out that showed that five-year-old little girls when they heard something smart they said that could be a man or woman. but by the time they were six or seven, it were not so sure if it could be a woman. what happens in a child's life between five and six? they go to school. what are we doing at school to make women already feel less, and boys feeling whatever, more? it's crucial. >> host: you have one like a new book where it was your daughter said you should be president of the united states. the thing my son said that i i love more than anything, he is now 35 and i was married to ben bradley, a very strong man, and he said to me you should be president of united states. [laughing] >> guest: i like that idea for both of us. >> host: i thought, something must been going on in the family dynamic, even though he was a
tough guy. >> guest: i love to hear that. to finish off that story, she said to me in the back of the car one day and she said mom, why can't you just decide to run today? i said well, it's a little more complicated that. ironically i have been asked to run for political office and this whole story unfold. it's not necessary in the cards for me right now, but never say never. do only thing we have to decide is only going to be copresident or vp? >> host: take it away. it's all yours. you have one statistic that just blew me away and it was that 43,000 people in the workplace are rape or sexual assaulted every year. can that possibly be true? >> guest: those are, 70% of people don't come forward, this is an epidemic. this is what i've been saying, it's alarmingly shocking how
much this is happening in our culture. >> host: my father once said to me, give me advice when it first started dating, he said never, never, never humiliate a man. that stuck with me all of my life, and i think he said that is the worst thing you can do to a man. and i thought recently and i thought particularly when i was reading your book and getting back to this creep factor thing, is that the only way to stop it is to mitigate the menu do this because they can't stand it. their egos cannot be stand to be humility. thank you, daddy, for that. so you don't know what, i i men you're doing this incredible movement and you are testifying and speaking and all that kind of thing. what do you think you will do? you talk about how so many times when this happens the women never end up back at the job of their choice or the field of their choice. what do you think your future
looks like? >> guest: you saw the camera crews with me today and i can't officially announce what that is but an iconic hollywood producers asked me to work on a wonderful project with him, which will be out this spring. i have all these other full-time jobs. i'm a great organizer but i'm spread thin with my son and the leadership initiative. but i do plan to go back into television. i've worked my whole life. i can imagine not working. i want to work. i have a lot to offer. will they be a day today show? i have no idea. i've had so many inquiries, but i'm so glad i taken these last 15 months to gain perspective about who i am, what i did, how that all has unfolded come,, children fit into the picture. because had i just decided to jump back into television i wouldn't be doing all this good work right now. >> host: that's right. >> guest: i'm doing this because of the thousands of women i heard from. they never ever have a voice.
like you and your story. they never told anybody they told me and i knew i had to do something. that became my mission over the last 15 months. life works in mysterious ways, and you never, never expected to be the face of this issue ever, but the one constant in my life has been that when there's a challenge for me i go for it. and that's what i'm doing right now with this. >> host: you are being fierce. thank you so much. >> guest: this is been so pleasurable. i really, really enjoyed it. thank you. >> if you would like to view other "after words" programs online simply go to our website @booktv.org. type "after words" into the search bar and all previous "after words" episodes will be available.
provides history of alzheimer's disease and reports on medical research being conducted today in the hopes of finding a cure in pursuit of memory and pulitzer prize winner, describes life of soviet union leader stalin, look for titles in bookstores this coming week and watch many authors in the near future on book tv on c-span2. [inaudible conversations] >> can you hear me? i'm hearing an echo. it's all good? okay. we just found out that michael is supposed to do a powerpoint presentation. that's going to take half an hour to find the powerpoint presentation he forgot to bring. okay, so thank you for being here, thank you to the