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tv   Gordon Chang Losing South Korea  CSPAN  November 3, 2019 6:45am-7:48am EST

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moon is unpopular as he is could very well get that simple majority, because after all he
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is counting the votes. the most important thing for job one, the most important thing for the opposition in korea, those who want to preserve their democracy is to make sure that they take back control of the national assembly. the main opposition party, the liberty korea party currently holds 110 of those 300 300 sea. some small conservative parties hold a scattering of others. it's important then that you actually get at least 100 seats and hopefully more. we know if they don't, moon's party, the democratic party of korea, will try to amend the constitution. april 15, therefore, is do or die, now were never and it is now also a time to safeguard rights, democracy and freedom in the republic of korea.
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since becoming president in 2017, moon has tried to return in south korea to a more authoritarian style of governance. he has taken control of the big broadcasters to reduce the airing of dissenting views, and also to permit views that promote north korea's. to control his messaging, mood has also gone after social media to prevent what he calls social discontent or social distrust. his party has gone especially after youtube which has become a primary forum for opposition voices. they've try to connect censorship laws but they don't really need to enact those laws because they have try to pressure you to. they've done this in a number of ways starting, for instance, a
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tax evasion investigation immediately after youtube refused to take than 104 videos put out by conservative voices in south korea. moreover, moon has been relentless using the national police authority to investigate those who abuse that moon has found to be discordant. you don't need to be factually incorrect to be the target of a police investigation. more than 70 south koreans are now being investigated, some of them journalists, because they started to question where moon was during five years this april when the wildfires in eastern portion of the country were raging. and don't even think of mentioning the massacre of 1980 unless of course you accept moon's narrative. so it's not a good idea in the south korea of 2019 2019 to cre what moon calls the mid-18
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democratization movement. usurper don't want use what he calls preposterous marks and its a sin, it is a sin to mention that north korea might possibly have had a hand in those the services. now with the appointment on the ninth of this month of the controversial figure cook, possibly correct but certainly in favor of north korea, this is going to make the situation in the south even worse. moon's, has also sought to silence other critics especially defectors from north korea. he doesn't want their voices to talk about the horrific nature of the regime. also, we are starting to see what some conservatives call quote-unquote reign of terror. radicals have been putting up wanted posters for north korean defectors, putting their lives in danger.
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they never criticize north korean defectors as quote-unquote scum. the now notorious, the group along with his associated flower of wave have openly and with impunity challenged critics of the government. those who criticize north korea. they are dangerous. they have invaded into classrooms to shout propaganda. bigotry in these offices of daily nk which is a new site in seoul. they have actually broken into the offices of the human rights organization to disrupt its functions. they have made public death threats and they have staged plays in seoul showing mock arrest, people bound with rope. and they have scuffled with police. no surprise then that many people in the opposition think that free democracy is on the verge of collapse, special something that we saw in the
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september 4, 2018 statement. in short, opposition, conservative voices have been pressured. they have been prosecuted. they have been coerced and they have been harassed. coerced and they had been harassed. in the new south korea we are even starting to see some of the fear, in the big flag rallies on weekends many people hide their faces or try to make sure that photographers don't catch them. they are concerned about retribution from the government. wasn't supposed to be this way. when mood was inaugurated in mal strive to get rid of authoritarian practices in the presidency. now, obviously that promise has not been kept. moon, and this is ironic, was once a human rights lawyer and a campaigner for democracy. we can't blame him for authoritarianism in south korea. that's been there from the start, started with the first president. we saw during the strong man,
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and, of course, two generals turned presidents. but nonetheless, we also saw in succeeding administrations a move to democracy and liberalization. and we can clearly say the south korea was a more open place during moon's to my predecessors -- two predecessors. let's be clear about what's occurring in south korea now. it's the reversal of decades long processes to make south korea a more free and open and democratic society. some people have even suggested that the u.n. and appoints a special rapporteur for south korea. things have gotten that bad. so unfortunately the south korea of tomorrow could look like the south korea of the past. maybe even a good look like north korea. what is most disturbing is that
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moon has been trying to take down the defenses of south korea. they talked about the september september 2010 agreement that moon reached with kim jong-un windmilling went to pyongyang. that agreement clearly favors the attacker, north korea, much more than favors the defender. monash unilaterally taken down defenses, tank traps, observation post fencing near the demilitarized zone. he's also been implementing plans to make the south korea army smaller in circumstances which are quite puzzling, and, and he has been undermining south korea's alliance with the united states. there's one country, one country that has pledged to the defense of south korea. it is the country that rushed to south korea's defense after the north koreans crossed the 38th parallel on june 25, 1950. it is.
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it is the one country that has 28,500 forces in south korea now. it is the united states of america. most people in south korea support the alliance. this was made clear by an athlon institute council on foreign relations vote which was released in january. it doesn't matter what most people in south korea think. they don't count politically and the new south korea. what matters is what one person thinks, that persons pain is moon jae-in. he has allowed his senior officials to mischaracterize the american of lines to inflame opinion. he has made it difficult for the united states to maintain one batter of the terminal high-altitude aerial defense system, and going behind the back of his only our effort doctor, he came to an agreement with the chinese foreign ministry late october 2017, the
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infamous three notes. no two more emplacements of thaad batteries, , no two south korean participation in ballistic missile defense, no to a tripartite alliance with the united states and japan. these negative covenants made without us, undermine our ability to defend the south. and they are as some people have said a deference to a chinese bully, a chinese bully who is supporting a north korean aggressor. i can't say i'm not in millions head, i can't say that he hates america. but when our president that it south korea at the end of june, president trump stood next to moon and the first lady, and the first lady was wearing conspicuously a blue butterfly brooch.
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i'm not sure our president understood the significance of that political statement, but the blue butterfly has become a symbol of anti-americanism in south korea. what moon was doing was he was disrespecting not just president trump, he was disrespecting the united states of america. let me close with just one point. in recent months, mood has been with the government anti-japan sentiment. we sort of paid attention when moon terminated a military information sharing agreement a few weeks ago. now, i can understand anti-japanese sentiment. my father during world war ii was one of millions, perhaps tens of millions of chinese who fled the japanese marauding army. he was going to school. he then walked west along with everybody else, hitched a ride. he just got himself to places where he was -- by the japanese
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only to other cities heading away from the chinese. but let's be clear. no japanese official who prosecuted that war is alive today. no japanese who is an authority in korea during the annexation is alive today. moon has to understand that regardless of how he feels, he needs japan. in the case of the north koreans -- in the case that the chinese a them like they did in the korean war, the united states will need japan's cooperation to defend south korea. we will need the forces that we have in japan. we will also need tokyo's active cooperation. i don't think moon particularly cares. he is pro-north korea, pro-china, anti-american, anti-american. in short, he's a danger to south korea which means he's a danger
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to freedom, which means he's a danger to us. our frontline today, frontline of our freedom, is hong kong and south korea. and it's time for we americans,, time for we americans to step up and defend them. thank you very much. [applause] >> if you all agree with me, you can go home. [laughing] if not, , ask questions. i'll do my best, but -- many of the korean experts. >> thank you very much for coming in. [inaudible] what would it take for china to
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actually increase force in hong kong come in your estimation. >> is i suppose everybody heard that. the question is, when china intervene as the second part of the question. the first part is, is independent a real possibility. well, everyone who is smart will tell you that independence is not a real possibility. i take a different view. if you go back to 1997 1997 whs the hand over, everybody was pro-beijing. everybody was patriotic. the place which is swarming with all sorts of red flags. about five years ago we started to see kids in the 20s wear t-shirts with the union jack on them which is one of the ultimate disrespects of beijing because really what it said was life was much better under a a white master who was 5000 miles away that it is to be ruled by my own kind. what we had seen since that time
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is the movement and the self identification of people in hong kong is not chinese. about a week and half ago, ten days ago someone released a survey which showed that for people in hong kong, under the age of 30, 99% said they were not, not chinese. they said they were hong kong. that is an important move towards and independent state. when you have this, and then of course last week we have heard the national anthem, quarter code, of hong kong, glory to hong kong, sung by people to society. once you get a national anthem you are on your road to getting a nation. i don't think china -- china of course can kill everybody in hong kong, 7.4 million people. they are capable of doing it. i don't think they're going to. short of that i don't think they can quell what's occurring right now. it's a growing at a don't think beijing has an answer.
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kerry lamb has been saying maybe will make housing cheaper and make life better from an economic point of view. that might have marginal effect but it's not going to affect what people really think, and that is right now they believe they should have their own society. all of the slogans that you're here or you in the photographs, those .2 an independent hong kong state. it will be hard but it's not impossible as people tell you. what will it take for china to intervene? china of course is want to intervene because for the reason i mentioned. also because it would end hong kong as as a special financial center where a lot of communist cadres get their money out of the country. so it is in some sense protected but but i think they will intervene under one condition. when they think that the people in hong kong are inspiring protests throughout the mainland. now, people in the mainland if they took a poll, and it's hard
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to the pool on a sensitive subject in a totalitarian state, but if they were to take a poll which was fair and accurate i think you would find some are about 95%, maybe 95% of the people did not sympathize with people in hong kong. basically the view in mainland china is those guys are rich, they have everything. why are they complaining? but that people in hong kong have perished kerry lamb around and it pushes are used in beijing around. people in the mainland especially in a digital radio economy which is not going at the 6.3% that they claim for the first half of the share which the actually even be contracting if you start to look at the august indicated, whatever it is it's not going the way it once was. they've got grievances, they've all sorts of complaints, economic, noneconomic. they may say if i protest, those guys in hong kong, they push kerry lamb around idle i do the same thing. i've got grievances myself. if they can do, i can do it.
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that's when beijing intervenes. i think beijing is not going to intervene lightly but nonetheless a desperate insecure communist militant superstate. they can do anything. yes, sir. [inaudible] >> the question is what's going to happen in 2047. this is the end of the 50 or period that was promised in the sino british joint declaration. i don't know the answer to that and actually think most people in beijing right now are not looking at 2047. 2047. i think they are looking at 2019, because they have a situation where they can't control things. they tried almost every tactic in hong kong. they put chinese soldiers into the hong kong police wearing hong kong police uniforms. they have brought out the thugs. they've now got carrie lam
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saying i i want to talk to 150 randomly selected people. good luck with that. i don't think they are actually thinking that far ahead. they have to make important anniversaries coming up, octobet going to be rejoicing in the resumption of chinese rule. by the way, carrie lam canceled the big fireworks display on october 1. and they have another date coming up which is next year, which is the 100th anniversary of the founding of the communist party. that's another date that is on the protest calendar i'm sure. what they really try to do is focus on the here and now. when it comes to 2047, who knows? i don't know what they are thinking. [inaudible] we now have china taking over the south china sea, --
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supporting a nasty dictator in north korea and hong kong. by any measure they've lost the right to rule one quarter of mankind. so let me ask the question. when do we begin a quiet campaign to break up the communist party, to break up the break while the keeps information from going into china? isn't it time? >> the question if you didn't hear it, and i'm sure you did,, was when do we start moving against the common as part of china. that is, i think if you look across the american political spectrum there is if you china is a maligned actor. there is no consensus though as to what to do. but i think when you start to look at, there are a lot of democratic party candidates have criticized president trump's tariffs and china policy. but if a look at establishing of
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the democratic party, for instance, speaker pelosi, minority leader schumer, , they are on full board of what the president is doing. and i think that really shows a remarkable acceptance of the few that china is a phone, and adversary. i call it an enemy because inmate of this year the actually declared people's were honest -- a foe. i think most people start to come to a much darker view of beijing's intentions. your question is when we start getting serious? i'm not in the president said but one can make the argument that he has identified china as america's enemy and that he's going to put it down. what we haven't heard from trump is the reaganesque statements which i believe he should be making, and which he's probably not in his nature to make. but nonetheless he is doing things which could very well
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bring down the communist party. because he's attacking their economy at precisely the wrong moment. china is going through a really difficult with its economy, and you can start to see this in any number of factors, , especially those a look at the manufacturing sector. but he will get consumption numbers, china's economy is falling fast. here he comes, president trump, tariffs, attacks on huawei come also to things the president is doing which could have a material effect on the stability of china. people ask to the trumpcare's cause problems in china? the answer is no. china is causing its own problems, largely because of xi jinping's view on state domination of economy, the resumption of totalitarian controls. none of this is working but what we are seeing vote is i think trump's policies are having a
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marginal effect at precisely the right time for what you want to do. and for what i want to do as well. because i believe that coexistence is not possible. as much as we would like it, and we can be friends with the chinese people of course. we will be friends with the chinese people, just not with the communist party around. in the back. >> i'm glad you mentioned two immediate predecessors to president moon. my question is twofold. do you believe the moon government or its allies before they came into power were responsible for the establishment, conviction and arrests and current incarceration of park -- [inaudible] >> yes. >> second question -- since a
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melter it'd who was for corruption or charge gave his salary back to charity still remains a popular figure is he speaking out against the current government? >> the first question is, was moon responsible for the impeachment and conviction of his predecessor? it sure looks like it. from all of the factors, special because of what moon is doing now. i would have to say the answer is yes. with regard to lehman bock, he's been quiet. you haven't heard his voice, and that is going to be something that ensure moon fears because lee was you point out a popular figure. [inaudible] >> jailed for one charge, yeah.
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[inaudible] >> what is the solution for the -- [inaudible] any idea? [inaudible] >> what would force him to step down? the question it what would force moon jae-in to step down. you know, gallup korea just came out a few hours ago with its most recent poll which showed moon's approval rating was 40%, and historical. gallup korea general has numbers that are higher than other service. so moon is really unpopular. part of it is because of the appointment of cho kuk which is a watershed moment. i don't know if moon would actually ever be impeached, but that is of course what people in south korea are now saying. so you know, the situation in
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south korea is volatile, but if you got, for instance, the conservative opposition doing well on april 15, then they very well may take revenge. because as the question before talked about, people believe that moon is responsible for the unfair impeachment and conviction of pocket. there's blood loss right now. the question i think can be better answered on the 16th of april of next year. how much china is helping north korea in terms of a nuclear weapon program? >> the question is, , how much does china eight north korea's nuclear weapons program. the answer is, a lot. if you look, for instance,, and it's sort of hard, the are couple of things but we know there's been a transfer,
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substantial transfer of technology are north korea's missile program. for instance, the transporter erector launchers that north korea uses for its mobile missiles came from china. we learned that at the big parade on april 15, 2012. also the solid -- north korea's liquid fuel missiles, and augusr first solid fuel and they had to make of the test of solid fueled missiles quickly after that which were land-based. the first one was sea-based. the question question is what did north koreans it solid fuel technology? that are two missile else can one from israel and one from texas who say the missiles that north koreans launched in auguso they launched in early 2017 look to be variance of chinese jail one submarine launched missile. so there's that. of course china has been
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supporting the north korean economy which allows the north to continue its ballistic missile and nuclear weapons program. they have been laundering money for the north koreans. we don't have time today to run through all the list, but the one thing that is really important that people sometimes don't focus on is that there's always been this question, the chinese say north koreans hate as so, therefore, we don't have influence in pyongyang. it is true koreans hate the chinese. they have for two malindi. they have have fought so many wars. the border between korea and china has moved hundreds of miles in both directions but that doesn't mean chinese don't have influence. xi jinping, chinese roller, summoned kim jong-un to north korea four straight times before xi jinping returned the visit. that's an indication that when the chinese pull the strings, the north koreans will jump. they may hate the chinese, but
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they know that they have to obey. the chinese don't always seek obedience, but when they do, the north koreans comply. that shows you they could not run a ballistic missile program. they could not run a nuclear weapons program if the chinese really didn't want it. yes, sir. >> the demonstrations in hong kong and -- is that carrying over to south korea with having some influence of that? >> the question is, are the protest in hong kong inspiring those in south korea? i think the answer is probably no. but the protests in hong kong are doing something else, which is at least as important, and that is they are changing the political calculus in taiwan. remember, xi jinping believes the one country to make systems
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formula for hong kong was really for taiwan as well. and he for these protest started to take, started getting momentum on june 9, that was the one we have maybe 1 million people in the streets, the president of taiwan was not even going to be renominated by her party. the democratic progressive party. she was out. she was stone cold dead politically. they bit of an exaggeration but she was not running again. she won the nomination of her party. today, she is leading in every poll in taiwan. her margin is not enormous. it's a long time between september 2019 and january of next year, by god come she's leaving everyone, everyone in taiwan says the reason why she's leaving is because of what's occurring in taiwan. also the other thing that we've seen in taiwan is that the
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campaign platforms and narratives of the opposition, the nationalist party, they have changed. they have become a lot less beijing friendly. that's the effect of that. let you know the thing, the think about hong kong though, step back from that, hong kong is inspiring. you can't go to this demonstrations as we did. you can't even read about them without being inspired by the grit and determination of the people of hong kong. at the thing that i was most impressed by when we were there, and we were not the very long but the one thing that came through really quickly was the humanity of people in hong kong. that's inspirational. yes, sir. >> i teach economics at george mason university. one of the comments about the hong kong movement is that there is a strong leader to mobilize
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the protests. [inaudible] nameless people supporting and there would be a better way to protect at least the status quo in hong kong. now, how would that logic could apply to south korea now? >> about leadership? hong kong, you don't have leaders in the protests. by the way you don't of leaders in the hong kong approaches for a simple reason. and that is, in 2014 they had the occupy center with love and peace demonstration, 79 days. the feeling in the pandemic craddick movie was the government bought off the leaders of that movement, placated them and so the protest ended the demonstrators today, both the older demonstrators and
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the younger ones just sort of think you don't need leaders we are doing fine without them. entrance to south korea the one thing that struck me when we were there a little while ago, beginning at me or something, was how disorganized and disunited the opposition in south korea was. i was thinking even though moon was really, really unpopular, that men could actually, his party, the democratic party of korea, they could actually do very well on april 15 largely because the conservatives are more interested in fighting themselves and are going after moon. i don't give advice to political parties outside the united states, but if i did i would say that you guys have got to start to get together. because if you don't, moon is going to kill you. in the back over there.
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>> senator tom cotton recently made a comment on national tv that marches with a noticed, and it surprised me as well that china did not feed itself. would you just comment on the significance of that, maybe give us some insight? >> the question was, senator cotton mention china cannot feed itself and what are the implications of that. the senator is right, and the senator is especially right now the pig population in china has been decimated by the african swine flu. pork being the primary meat of chinese consumers. the chinese need to buy pork because they don't come they're not able to raise enough themselves because they lost what, 50% of the pig herd.
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that was what a week ago, china revealed additional tariffs on american pork. and people were saying this is a goodwill gesture towards the trump administration. no, it's not. these guys need to buy pork, and one of the political problems right now in china is not a mean and nasty the communist party is, which it should be, but one of the main political problems for the party is the price of food staples, especially the price of pork. so yes, they can't feed themselves. it is sort of change. there's a couple things going on. first of all china has through very shortsighted policies put a lot of metals in the soil. so that's taken some of the agricultural land out of the cycle. but also with during prosperity of people have differing tastes. the diet of the average chinese has been changing, in connection
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with economic development. so that's why you have more meat and you have more other things, and chinese people have traveled a lot. so they've had some really good french food and other stuff and they want it at home. the other big story i think in terms of chinese consumers and food is they don't trust their own food supply anymore. so chinese consumers will spend a lot to buy foreign food because they believe in its purity and they don't believe in the safety and the purity of their own food. there's a lot of factors that have -- know one factor is enough but you put all those factors together and yes, china cannot feed itself and the city, with african swine flu a political problem for beijing at this moment. >> question about the labor union in south korea. now, if and when the moon
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government loses in the april election next year, would you think the labor unions would start acting out too great a major disruptions in the normal political or. >> with the question is about the labor unions in south korea and whatever happens april 15 of next year, do i think the labor unions would create the services in south korea. my sense is no, largely because, and you want to ask tara to talk about it at my sense is still largely because if you get smashed in an election which could very well happen on april 15, i think essentially they will be demoralized. i'm not an expert on that. [inaudible] >> yes. hope pius the 11th --
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[inaudible] i think he said communism is intrinsically wrong and those who would say present civilization should not cooperate with communism in india to take whatsoever. i know there are small undertaking whatsoever like the olympics -- [inaudible] there are some very big things like china's forced abortion policy. one china expert told me that planned parenthood international actually train the chinese for abortion even though they use this word choice. this congress here has been subsidized planned parenthood with american taxpayers. [inaudible] then you have problems like maybe china and, chinese software in the pentagon. the pentagon is using chinese software. [inaudible]
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my own opinion is that our virginia state motto probably had some foreign policy implications that are probably, probably would give us foreign policy more consistent with the principles of the redemptorist as i said communism -- and i'm always skeptical of things like korean unification are one country two systems of hong kong. >> the question really goes to the whole issue of cooperation with the communist states. and i agree with you approach because i believe, it's unfortunate but after four thickets of trying to integrate beijing patient into the international system, that we obviously failed. what we've done is we've enriched and strengthened hostile militant group that now threatens us and our friends and allies. and i think that we had seen in recent weeks just so many examples in addition to the ones you talk about. we've seen so many other examples of the impossibility of cooperating with china.
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just to give one example, everyone talks about business investment into china. what beijing is going to be doing is taking its social credit system and extending it to corporate, including foreign corporate. the social credit system is a nationwide program which rates every individual. they get a score which is constantly updated based upon observable behaviors. so for instance, if you jaywalk, your scores going to go down to you can say something nice or xi jinping, your scores going to go up. they are doing this for companies and they're going to extend this to companies. we saw this what beijing will do to a company when it has the power to do so, and that was cathay pacific in connection with hong kong protest. cathay pacific now has a new chairman and a new chief executive officer, and they are now according to apple daily 200
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vacancies that of a newly created. the reason why all of this personnel over is because beijing has tried to purge the airline of those people who have protested or who protected protesters. so for instance, the ceo was canned because he refused to cooperate with china. he refused to turn over a list of employees who went protested in hong kong this is what beijing is going to do once it has the ability. this is a question of disengagement. we would love to have american companies involved in making money in china, but you can't do that because one of the thing that could happen is beijing will weaponized them against us and they will go after those companies like they went after cathay pacific. we have a stock of something like to win a $56 billion of investment in the people's republic, and we could very well lose that largely because what we are seeing. it's unfortunate that we are not
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driving this. if you want a graphic example of what can happen to an american company as opposed to cathay pacific, just look at what happen to fedex pilot who was detained because he had plastic pellets in his luggage. they decided to go after that expert that was clue about six weeks ago in connection with misdirection of some packages for huawei. they have made fedex an enemy and then a holding an american as hostage. this is the way a militant communist state deals with foreign companies. so we have got to understand that we have to protect americans. you can't protect americans if they are in china. it's unfortunate but what are you going to do? >> one more question. special staffers. any questions?
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>> thank you for coming. >> thank you. i want to ask you, you mentioned -- [inaudible] [inaudible] >> the question is about hong kong human rights and democracy act of 2019 which is currently in consideration. i think it will help. i think the provisions are not strong enough, that's just me. but the point is the protesters in hong kong see this as a symbolic act. they want that passed. the reason why didn't they want is even though it will hurt hong kong's economy, they believe anything that undermines the rule of the communist party,
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going back to your point, is good for them. and by the way, although there's a lot of controversy in the united states about president trump's tariffs that he imposed under section 31 of the trade act of 1974 as a remedy for as a remedy for the theft of intellectual property, controversial here. not controversial among people who protest in hong kong. they say it's controversial in the sense that what those tariffs higher. but the point is a want it. they want the united states to show its resolve in this and to do in ways which we might think are just symbolic but for them are incredibly important because they want to support. two sundays ago, three sundays ago now you have the protest at the u.s. consulate in hong kong. there were 1000 american flags flown that they outside our consulate. thank you very much. [applause]
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>> gordon, thank you so much. and by the, your website for people that want to get on -- [inaudible] >> i want to make one quick announcement. thank you so much. that was an outstanding presentation. we are making a transcript and a video but i wanted to mention, there's quite a few people here that are members of the north korea freedom coalition. probably one of the most important things the defensive form foundation is, if you're a member, brazier your hand if you want to join us on tuesday, tuesday is september 24. september 24 is the anniversary of when china became a signatory to the refugee convention which obligates it not to force people against their will back to a
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country where they will be persecuted. not a lot of people know about this, about his situation, but china has been repatriating forcibly sending north koreans, men, women, and children, back to north korea knowing they will most certainly, 100%, be tortured, 100% be detained. and. and in some cases executed. and so september 24 we are organizing a worldwide devastation, asking people to show up at the chinese embassies and consulates to deliver petitions appealing to xi jinping to stop this illegal inhumane, and brittle activity. if you want to join us we are going to assemble in front of the chinese central tv for a demonstration in d.c. at 4:10 and then proceed to the chinese embassy for a vigil. we will also attempt to deliver the petition. i do want to mention that you because we will be singing the same songs that the hong kong
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protesters us singing if other embassies and people will be doing this all over the world and solidarity with the people of hong kong. one final thing what to make is, this ties in together, i just remembered 2008 olympics. there were so many, all the best that it doesn't matter if you're a leftist our writers in the united states and everybody was supposed to beijing getting the olympics. the argument was oh, this will be great because they will open up and it will become more open. this is helping china to reform and open it. that is just one of many lies about trade with china and everything because it has done nothing to help the people of china. it's the communist party of china that is benefited from all this, and that's when the persecution of the refugees became even more severe. because china does not want the international community to see the horrific things they were doing to innocent men, women, and children that had escaped
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from north korea. with that i want to thank you all again for being here. if we could have one more applause for gordon. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> booktv continues now on c-span2, television for serious readers. [inaudible] [inaudible conversations] >> can anyone hear me? welcome, welcome. my name is kai bird. i'm the executive director of the center for biography. over the past 12 years the center has awarded 44 major


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