forgiveness. we are imperfect as human beings, the law is imperfect this is a capacity that we have and we should draw on it. >> you wrote a book where you talk about child soldiers, student debt, misuse of the power by some presidents, a book that manages to be optimistic. . . .

>> is the author of "let them in", the case for the open border. "please stop helping us". and "false black power?". a critique of the national - - >> jason riley, author, columnist. fox news contributor.and among your books, "please stop helping us". i want to begin. you say liberalism has convinced black to see themselves first and foremost as victims. >> i believe that is a big part of a political strategy

actually. and they've been at it for some time. they've had a lot of success. victims, primarily. then the follow-up that has a government programs to help you overcome your victim had. >> there are a number of essays and books written by - - is a a failure or success? >> if you look at the track record of the program, look at the goals that the objectives for stated at the time. you have to say it's largely a failure. particularly with regard to the people that were targeted by many of these programs. their lives have not significantly improved even

though they were being told it would improve at the time. >> in your book you talk about, ronald mason. who was he and buys it - - no go. >> i think the issue there was what's the kind of these institutions. since the civil rights act. and a lot more education in the country. - - integration. because blacks didn't have - - in the first half of the 20th century, they are not the bus to the extent. but they have more options nowadays. so it was troubling, how to

stay viable both economically in terms of higher education. and this has been resisted by some who want the schools to remain - - retain their independence. it's often for nostalgic reasons. for someone who's pushing for this plan, we got a lot of pushback. i think if they are producing good results, yes. they should stay in existence. the problem is that a lot of them are not there and they're being keptafloat primarily for federal dollars .

my point is if a school is for filling his promises then, it doesn't matter if it's an all black or white school. where i think the value is of late in recent decades is in the - -. educating kids in ste . the parlance of blocks that go. i still think they do very - - server critical purpose in higher education. >> this is the cover story of the "washington post". gene robinson: america's - - your reaction to that?

>> i think there's a tendency to view black history in america as a history of - -. there are various reasons why various groups want to keep that narrative alive. but in the end, i think black history is about - - yes, racism still exists. nor do i expect to see america think wished of racism in my lifetime. but, i do think black history is more than that. for me, the more relevant question is what can be done in the face of whatever racism still exists. and i think that is the

relevant story of today. that is the message to give young people today. my fear is that by perpetuating this notion that it's all about victimization. it's all about racism. it's sending the wrong message i sent to the next generation. why try if people are - - teachers are racist. employers are racist will they - - if they're leaving the door with that for the message, i don't think it helps a child. i've been called names, followed around department stores. pulled over by police. >> you write about that tell. where were you? >> i was doing an internship in the early 90s.

and i was a double ãi was on the sports desk. we had to work until the baseball games on the west coast were over. and i was driving to and from my uncles house where i was staying. and i had my car which had new york plates because i was from new york. and i was driving home one evening after work. probably early the next morning. and i hear sirens blaring and the police pulled me over. pull me out of the car at gunpoint and pushing me around. i said the space that i fit the description of someone they were after. >> what were you thinking? >> i was terrified.

i remember getting back into the car after i left because they were gone as soon as they came after the release i wasn't the correct person. just getting back in my car, shaking. i had a standard and i couldn't get it out of here. my hand was shaking so vigorously. it was terrifying. >> making national headlines, three black men, 16 years old at the time. convicted of murder state did not commit but they were just released.what does that tell you about america's criminal justice system? >> that it is not perfect. knowno go - - [indiscernible]

>> we don't talk about the racial makeup in this country and i don't think you can have questions. as imperfect as the criminal system is. i still think there are behavioral differences that lead to some being

overrepresented and some underrepresented. so that was a look back - - [indiscernible]. i wanted to say for programs that were put in place. i wanted to look back and see what's worked, what hasn't worked and why. i had a little bit of this - - the book is essentially about the track record of using

political power - - which has been the strategy. the issue was if we could integrate, everything is will take care of itself. we just need to get things in place. the civil rights had quite the perspective. in the early 1980s. los angeles, philadelphia, washington d.c. that had black mayors. we had black police chiefs and fire commissioners. but if you look at the track record of these black run

cities. under these black regimes, you have even more impoverished. i don't think the track record is a good one.

>> a groups work ethic, if they think the government is going to - - you can't replace a father in thethe homebrewed and

have a system in place that says to a woman from if you have additional child, we will send you the money. imagine the perverse incentive for in place. and that's what we saw going on. that's what we saw with bill clinton's welfare reforms in the 1990s. but not entirely. >> we are in new york and our guest is jason riley. his column is available at the wall street journal. - - for those of you in the mountain pacific time zones. you can find us on @book tv on

twitter. >> that book was written in the 2000's and it was about immigration. i was working at the wall street journal at the time. i got a new position and asked me if i wanted to take over this piece. it kind of fell into my lap. i'm not an immigrant or the child of an immigrant. i did enjoy immigrant history. some of the arguments you realize as you write about it are old and it's been around for so long. so that book really came out of editorials at that time.

it's sort of, i sort of expand on a lot of the editorial pages. over the decades. sometimes conservatives in particular. the foot of immigration view on the right you always have - - protectionist strain on the right. but that was never the dominan . reagan was extremely pro-immigrant. george w. bush and his father were both pro-immigrant.

even the republican nominees that lost like mccain or romney were far more pro-immigrant than you had in donald trump. so this is not a new development on the right. although there is this faction, more anti-immigrant faction on the right but it's never been the predominant one. >> should the rules be different for an immigrant versus citizens? >> there two different groups. - - will tell you that someone was forced out of their country. someone like that will behave differently rather someone who came willingly to start a new life.

when i am writing about in that book that is the case i make is that we would be better to put in place - - or other types of programs that allow the laws to determine the level. right now it's being made by public policymakers who are trying to think hard about the united states economy point take a little from here and from there. and that just doesn't work. it's soviet style planning that's left us with a vacuum of fraud. 12 million immigrants fit hundreds of dead bodies in the arizona desert. if we would do better, that would allow us to regulate. >> the current book you're working on is what? >> i'm currently working on - -

based on the hoover institution. whose books i am writing when i discovered them in college. it's a project i'm looking forward to. >> how would you define your ideology. can you put it in a box?>> i guess i define myself as a free market conservative. someone who believes smaller government is the way to go. and someone that believes in individual freedom. >> in "please stop helping us", you write the civil rights movement became an industry.

by whom? >> it's become an industry for everyone from individuals like al sharpton, jesse jackson whose entire organization like the naacp. the - - they have effectively monetized black discrimination. and they have done it for different reasons. if you're a civil rights organization like the naacp, it is not in your interest to a college that things have improved for black people. and what you're trying to do, that the civil rights battle has been fought and won and you are trying to stay relevant. if you're in an organization like black lives matter but you want to raise money. whether or not they are actually relevant you will play that out because it's in your interest to do so.

we were talking about the victimization earlier. and that is something democrats and black democrats use to get reelected. the different groups i think have different incentives here. but it has very much become an industry. >> an industry that has no vested interest in realistic - - [indiscernible] >> right. again. that doesn't serve their purpose. they want to stay relevant or they want to raise money or get elected. so they want to keep race and racial victimization front and center in the national debate. >> would use - - where do you do most of your thinking and writing? >> at home. i have a home office . it took a little getting used to but i commuted in an office for more than two decades.

at the wall street journal so it took a little adjustment. i find it more productive to start right away. >> our guest is jason riley. we'll take your calls in just a moment. let's talk about your father. you write about him in the book with your parents separated when you were a child. >> he made a big difference. he was an excellent role model. not only my father. my mother is very religious. and we attended church three times a week. and the congregation was full of black men who took care of their families. spoke a certain way, behave this way. i was very fortunate. i grew up around very solid male role models. and i think it made a big difference.

they are part of the problem that many blacks, particularly - - was not having. the lack of role models in the community or even in the home. given the rates of single parenting in poor black communities. it's a problem. >> born and raised in buffalo? >> yes. welcome to booktv. >> hello. >> good afternoon. >> i want to ask how republicans, especially black republicans, why don't they educate - - as far as politically? [indiscernible] voter

suppression. [indiscernible] you should have me on your radio program discussing this. what i'm asking you to do, when i ran for the house in florida. i was a republican. i was called a racist. jackie robinson was my hero. i honor doctor martin luther king. and i was called racist.

it's terrible. i asked him what democrat - - in the south. that's what you should be teaching them. >> thank you for the call. we will get a response. >> i would agree with the caller that there is a lot of black history that doesn't get a lot of attention. civil rights organizations and black politicians. because again, it doesn't serve their interests. their personal interest. what was going on in the black community between the end of slavery and the beginning of

the modern day civil rights movement. there was quite a bit of progress being made and this was remarkable. given it was happening at a time of widespread racism in this country. that was open. after the goal. this is the days of jim crow. the rate at which they were educating themselves. the race at which they were joining the middle-class professions. tremendous progress that actually flowed after the civil rights legislation of the 1960s passed. we saw many of these trends either slow down or even reverse course. it doesn't get a lot of attention from the civil rights activists today. because it doesn't serve their narrative. >> you write in "please stop helping us" that poor blacks

perform better in the absence of government. why? >> well, we have a lot of - - that we can look back on and see if in fact these programs were effective. in 1996, the university of california ended - - will be so after that band went into place with a number of black graduates increase by more than 50 percent. the number of hispanic graduates increased by more than 50 percent. so a program to have been put in place to helpincrease and expand the ranks have been practiced , been resulting in fewer black lawyers or

architects or social workers in the absence of the policy. i again, we don't have to guess here. we don't have to speculate. we can simply look at the past record of these programs that we've had in place over the years. >> rob in new york city. welcome to the conversation. >> good afternoon mr. riley. i'm a big fan of yours. i am a black american. i agree with everything you say. but it really doesn't make a difference. you have the mentality of being comfortable being a victim. it's not going to change. the democratic party knows this. this will be their favorite word. racist. too many black folks will be attracted to that. feeding their emotions. that's what the democratic

party is banking on. i heard someone once a fax don't give a damn about your feelings. my family, no matter what. i'm telling you now, this doesn't make a difference. you've been told you have a national problem. it's never going to change. the democratic party is waiting for the big race win. that's what they are banking on. police shootings, something like that. then black folks will leave their feelings and emotions up and they will take them for granted. i didn't vote for trial.

i'm voting for him now because, what have you got to lose? look at the facts of unemployment. we are better off. it doesn't make a difference. it's just never going to change. the black added to just will never change. >> thanks for the call. >> you are smiling. >> i appreciate the call. and i think he makes good points about the strategy of the democrats. and he's right. the democrats have been very - - at pushing their victim mentality. and so it is very difficult to

change minds out there. but i'm more optimistic than the caller, i will say. but he does make excellent points. >> from the book "please stop helping us", you write this. - - insists immigrants are coming here not to take advantage of welfare programs, why then are they flocking to states that are so skimpy with benefits to the poor? >> that's a question i often asked my friends on the right who see immigration as a problem. the idea that immigrants are coming here to go on welfare and not work is just not borne out by the facts. on many fronts.

but we can look at the situation we have today.you have, picture number. 10, 12, 15 million people in the country illegally. unemployment rates at a six year low. the wall street journal reported recently there's something like .2 million more jobs available than there are people looking to work. we have a labor shortage. notwithstanding the fact we have 15 million people here illegally. so again, the other argument is they will put - - on wages but i can't tell you how often i've been told, you should be especially wary of these folks. because they're going after jobs that are held by a lot of blacks. again, what does that say with black unemployment and we are at generational lows. which is like for people at the

low end of the pay scale, faster than they've been rising for management. immigrants coming here and stealing jobs. affecting wages. where's the evidence? >> you write about jesse jackson. 50 years ago, he was fighting jim crow laws and today he's fighting for his own relevance. >> absolutely. i think the civil rights battle has been fought and won. you see now amongst civil rights leaders. even among the activist groups. what they are pushing for, where they want emphasis. in terms of the black community is so at odds with reality that it's hard to know where to begin. one of the previous callers mentioned the way the left plays a police shootings. any police shooting is tragic.

but, is it the problem today that these activists have made it out to be? we are in the york which is one of the few places that has detailed records of police shootings going back to the early 1930s. in 1971, police in new york - - [indiscernible]. the most recent stats from a couple years ago shows around a dozen. that's a 90 percent reduction in police shootings. and in police shooting fatalities over the past decades. so we have an activist movement out there that bank on there being some sort of epidemic of police shootings. the facts simply do not bear that out. you can look at other large studies.

police shootings may make up 1-2 percent of all shootings going on. if there are bad cops, let them out. if they hold a position of authority, but the idea that that's what we should be emphasizing. the two percent of shooting instead of people responsible for 98 percent of shootings is ridiculous. >> let's talk about the crime rate and blacks in jail.you write about, these are your words, blacks are responsible for an astonishingly disproportionate number of crimes for the past half-century. >> yes. blacks are responsible for more than half of all murders in this country. despite only making up 13 percent of the populace.the black violent crime rate is 7-10 times higher than the

white violent crime rate in the country. that's something we need to be honest about. we want to have - - about the racial makeup but we don't want to talk about the racial makeup of who commits crimes. we pretend these have absolutely nothing to do with one another. it's ridiculous. they office to have something to do with one another. if we want to reduce the number of people in the criminal justice system and the number of blocks, we have to deal with the black crime rate. but that entails having an honest conversation. but we don't have that. >> what percentage in your mind are african-americans? in poverty. >> black poverty rates are higher than white poverty rates. among married blocks, poverty rates are in the single digits.

and has been for 25 years been the idea that racism is driving the poverty rate is at odds with the facts. no one is going to not discriminate against you if you're black and married. they will not make any distinctions. so we have to look at the totality from the situation. is poverty a function of racism? is poverty primarily a function of - - [indiscernible]. if it's the latter, - - >>but again, these are not discussed. we jump right to a racial disparity resulting from racism, for stop.

we don't discuss other factors that could be driving these. to have the conversation, you don't need to deny that racism exists in america,, the question as to what extent is racism responsible for these outcomes? >> to your point, it cycles, the poverty rate with crime. >> it has a lot to do with that. - - keep those families intact. >> what was your own personal experience going back to your father that separated from them at an early age. >> my father never lived more than a couple miles away from

us. my sisters and i spent holidays and weekends with him and usually a couple days a week at his house. doing homework after school. so he was very involved.in my life. the problem is that, that's not typical. that's atypical. and that's the problem. i mean, you go back to as recently as the 60s. two out of three blankets being raised by a mother and a father. and that statistic alone are a long way - - of the gang-related violence, why these kids are shooting each other. there's a lack of male role models. >> your father has since passed away.

noel. >>. [indiscernible] >>. [laughter] i didn't think my father enough when he was alive. >> michael in florida, thank you for waiting. >> i'm just listening and i have so many questions for this gentleman. number one, how to utilize the statistics to support his position while - - statistics for example when he cited, black families if they are married. their kids are in a better position. when 73 percent of all marriages end up in divorce. or when he cites that for example, by his analogy, if there were 900 grapes of women

in the city and now there are 10 rapes, are we now not supposed to emphasize how important it is that you shouldn't rape women? you talk about people using the civil rights movement to their advantage. i would guess that you have been in a situation, despite your educational career and professional career that you are either the first or the only black in your area of employment or wherever you were. at the wall street journal, they are very happy to have an educated black man like yourself to talk about theories that are generally not supported by black people you have done probably the same thing in your professional life that you are accusing democrats of doing. now let me make my final point.

you talk about a system. the g.i. bill. affirmative action for white soldiers. because black people weren't allowed to be in the army. - - was also affirmative action. all you had to do was be a white male and you could sign up and go to any college that the government would pay for the and that after the economy started to boom come all of the businesses left the urban areas. they rate the cities. all the people moved to the suburbs. the banks refused to give blacks on's. gave white loans. they refuse to hire blocks. and then gridlocked the districts where the blacks were

to support the backing of the federal government. >> thank you for the call. >> a couple points, in terms of my personal background. i haven't accomplished anything in life that other black people haven't before me. that includes the wall street journal. i was recruited by a black gentleman that had been an editor for a number of years. in terms of the g.i. bill, i don't know if he has his facts straight there but there are blacks with attended college in the 50s and 60s. the gentleman i'm writing about is one of them who attended college on the g.i. bill.

and he's quite thankful for the g.i. bill. he also mentioned something about deindustrialization. as been a problem in the inner cities. these committees have disintegrated. getting the order wrong here. the factories left after these societies had fallen into disrepair. the riots of the 1960s happened first. then the companies left these areas. so you have to get the order right. sometimes people don't. >> we are taking your text messages. a lot coming in including this from a viewer saying, police shootings are down because of protest and demonstration. >> again, that's not what the

record shows. i mentioned new york city earlier. 1971, i believe there were 314 police shootings. by 1991, that had fallen by more than half. to about 100. and then 20 years later it's into the teens. so this has been a long-standing trend. that predates these protests in the last year. police, the use of force has been declining steadily. particularly among - - there was a study e red from an economist at harvard. and he examines a number of police shootings around the country. he had expected to find buyers but he found no bias.

he found black and hispanic suspects were less likely to be shot at by police. this is not i believe a function of these protests. what the protests have done or what they risk doing is forcing police to scale back in their cars and not patrol on foot to take their time on 9-1-1 calls. if you have the politicians and activists breathing down there next. my fear is that the people who will be harmed the most by this are law-abiding black people. who of course are the majority of the black community. they are the ones will be harmed. the criminals prayed on them first and foremost. they're not hitting into white suburbs to rob holmes.

the rubbing their neighbors. - - robbing. you're hurting the black core the most. that is what i fear these activist are doing by making policing the problem when the problem is criminality. >> mr. riley, how much criticism do you get from friends for being on fox news? rex. [laughter] >> i have friends of all political affiliations. but when people see your on tv, they're more likely to tell you how you look at how you sounded. >> - - joining us in jersey city. >> good afternoon. thank you very much. mr. riley, i will start off by saying happy holidays to you.

rest in peace to your father. there was a personal story you shared there. i don't have a problem with your view about how the democrats are - - the blacks. as far as politics and government go, [indiscernible]. i am black. i believe in bernie sanders. that's me telling you as a black male. i am very dissatisfied with the democratic party. they are not doing enough. we don't have really any trade schools. why don't we have public trade schools that teach public high schools,welding , electricians. we are not doing - - the

democratic party is not doing enough but taking money out of our system. [indiscernible] that's me giving you a couple reasons, examples of this transaction with the democratic party. but you're not encouraging us to vote for the republican party, are you? they don't spend any dollars mr. riley on our communities. it's beneath the republican party. maybe they don't turn their back toward or against us, but they don't even look at us. which one of them that like i said, bernie sanders is the way forward.

your views are very toxic. you are black and we all have the right to suggest our way forward. but the gop is not the answer. >> the fact that, i will respond on two levels. the caller is like i think when he talks about the lack of interest that republicans have shown the black vote. you can speculate as to why that is good weather is racism or what's driving it. they don't need this vote to win. in politics, it's about numbers. and time spent going after a situate so you don't have a chance of getting is not time

well spent. so that could be one explanation right there.>> more recently, paul ryan did try to push for it. >> you had stephen goldsmith, another politician that did this. even - - when he ran for reelection, he did quite well among blacks. because he went into camden and trenton. the problem with all the people we just named as they are the exceptions are not the full. you don't see republican candidates and black neighborhood barbershops. you don't see them advertising on black radio or black television programs. what it's allowed is for the democratic candidates to paint them as complete monsters with no pushback.

i do think that republicans ought to do a better job of courting this vote and i don't blame blacks to have the attitude now that i will vote democrat or stay home. >> in the wall street journal, euro black voters - - you wrote - - [indiscernible]. >> if you had asked me about cory booker and kamala harris five years ago, i would have had positive things to say about them. both of them are democrats, both of them are liberal. but we can start with cory booker. he was a very educational, reform minded mayor. before he became a senator. he believe in school choice. charter schools.

he was also very hard on crime. he came down, he hired a proactive police commissioner. i was going to model what she was going to do on what giuliani and bloomberg had done in new york. kamala harris as a prosecutor. you see youtube videos of her saying things like, there may be racism but that's not the reason i - - [indiscernible]. she was a very open-minded prosecutor to protect law-abiding black people that were the targets. they've abandoned that. by and large, they decided they needed to be more progressive to run for president.

that's where the party was so they had to put aside sensible talk. that's my problem with where they are today versus where they were before. the caller mentioned bernie sanders. i, my problem with bernie sanders, is socialism. which amounts to wealth redistribution as a way of helping the poor. helping the black poor in particular. again, we talk about that - - redistricting wealth to help poor people and solve poverty. we would have felt a long time ago. what these folks need is to learn about wealth creation. the progressives are too focused on redistribution as a

solution and it's not. it's not going to be the solution. and bernie is all in. and that's essentially my problem with his - - >> you write about former mayor michael bloomberg. he apologize about stop and frisk. you defended it by saying - - [indiscernible] >>is that a fair assessment? rex i have a problem with michael bloomberg - - >> but one of the things i liked about michael bloomberg was his stance on policing. he didn't have the backing of the police. he let them know that. rudy giuliani put a lot more cops on the streets in these communities. by the way, people like to talk

about the tensions between the police and black community. [indiscernible] mayors like bloomberg and giuliani were responding to those calls. and i appreciated that. the start and frisk policy that bloomberg is walking back and apologizing for, i would argue is - -. if you go back to the early 90s, we were looking at 2300 homicides a year in the early 90s. 70 percent were black people being murdered. if you fast-forward to last year, down to a couple hundred. if we had maintained the rate of homicide in the early 1990s, for the next quarter century.

do you know how many more that - - more like people we would have today? i was appalled he was apologizing for a policy that i would argue saved predominantly black lives and kept them at - - out of prison as well. that's where the party is now. if you want to run in this party, you have to talk about policing as the problem and not criminality. >> we are having our "in depth" conversation with jason riley. who is your role model? >> my role model was my father. first and foremost. and no one has really replaced him since then.there are people that have influenced me throughout my career. and among those folks i would name shelby steele.

walter williams. these are people i was reading back in college.and the greed with a lot - - agreed with a lot of what they wrote. >>. [indiscernible] >>. [laughter] that's a good question. i haven't had a lot of jobs out of college. i got into journalism. i'd read something in the paper and editor said why don't you join the staff? and that's what got me interested. and i did, after i did the internship with usa today in washington.

i knew i wanted to be a journalist. six months after college i found myself at the wall street journal. and i stayed more than two decades and continued to write for that paper. - - out of bed in the morning whether a more current column or a book. or prepare for interviews on c-span. so i'm still very much enjoying it. ... i have three questions. the first question was, you said something about throughout the success of folks carrying that,

under jim crow so if you could provide references or comments because -- >> when i was talking about their is between 1940 and 50, black poverty rate in america fell by 40 percentage points. 40% decline before civil rights act from the voting rights act of 1965. in the decade alone, black household incomes doubled in this country so that's prior to that. it often perceived black income.

if you look at the period between 1930 and 1970, you had the number of black professions, social workers, teachers, lawyers and doctors, the number of black and think these professions quadrupled during that period. so the point here is what's going on in the rest of the country during this period. i would argue that the folks making those gains were experiencing a great deal more racism in american society than what we have today. yet, it was not able to stop them. the question then begins, what did stop? what happened? why did we see a slowdown or a reversal in some cases and what was happening? i would argue that the government intervention policies

or expansions of the great society is one thing that got in the way. it's the black family and we started to see all kinds of other efforts to help, it interfered with the development taking place and we saw this shift in the civil rights arena. we saw the shift from a focus on the development of the human capital that we saw in the kingdom era to electing officials and that became the primary focus and i think that proved problematic. you mentioned doctor martin luther king, would he be satisfied with where we are today, 50 years after his assassination? >> no, i don't think he'd be satisfied. i think it be -- >> would you say we've made

progress? >> of course. twice elected black president, as well as senators and mayors and governors and all the rest. on a certain level, certainly but in terms of black, there's been quite a bit of work to do their. a situation that has in some ways, regressed in the days of king. it's really sad, i think. but that is where we are. that's where he'd be most disappointed. >> is a voting right requirement need to be kept in place? >> i don't think so. i think people have been willing

to cross racial lines to vote for some time. they don't have a problem with keeping it in place, you get kindreds that don't need to make any appeals and i think it only fuels polarization. it probably hurts candidates who aspire to run statewide at some time. you're just running in that one area but if you want to be a senator or governor and you spent all your time only making these narrow appeals to a certain group and want to run statewide, that's a much more difficult leap to make. i think it puts in place perverse incentives and it ignores the fact that we have come a long way in terms of black candidates.

>> who is responsible for racism in our country and why? >> i don't think any one individual is responsible racism. it predates america. it's a human condition, i would argue. it's not about one group being responsible for perpetuating it. or one group being able too and it. it predates all of us and i believe it will still be here when i am long gone. i think it's just part of the fact of human nature. >> welcome to book to be. >> thank you so much. i really appreciate them stating facts and i want to check a statement, everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts so it's like they're

always stating facts, i'm a whistleblower, i was in the "wall street journal" back in 1983, which triggered an investigation and eventually led to the resignation to the speaker of the house. i told them factual information. the article is offered by jonathan, he's aware who he was but bring in solutions, that's what we should be focused on. let's get together and stop the racial polemic. we have indigenous people in concentration camp reservations that need our help, too. it all starts with stopping arguments and bringing solutions. thank you. >> thank you for the call.

i didn't hear a question there but i thank you for the call as well. >> you write about an individual by the name of john, who is he? >> he died recently, he was an eye doctor from michigan. he also started out as an environmental activist. he moved into productive rights, may be the first or one of the first in michigan and was unsatisfied, this was part of worked in tandem with his concern about population growth.

in the u.s. he was concerned there were too many people and this was detrimental to nature, to the earth and so forth. which explained his interest in abortion and also explained his interest in immigration ultimately that america was becoming populated with immigrants so he started any number of organizations to fight for lower level and the expanded rapidly and some of them had become popular. center for immigrations study is one and the reason i wrote about in the book is because many republican restriction us have joined a common cause with these organizations over the years and

even though -- but for different reasons. you had people who got together even though they came from very different places, they joined enforces to reduce immigration and what i was trying to explain is the history of some of these groups in the book because i think there are many republicans who didn't realize who they we were. >> let's talk about the republican party. the first two years of trump, donald trump is a candidate, used immigration as a key issue in his campaign. he brought up again in 2018 when they lost control of the house of representatives. at the white house, house and senate. for two years, something on immigration on an issue that republicans ran on. what happened? >> i think he ran into the same problem that obama ran into when he controlled for his first two

years in office. it's complicated and even within the party, there are different factions into different beliefs on immigration. clearly most republicans are not with the president when it comes to some of the more extreme views. more recently, we've had the dreamer issue, people who were brought here to the country illegally as children and what to do about them. obama passed something and trump wanted to undo it. the majority of republicans, not just americans want to give amnesty to the dreamers and not support them. there you have an issue where trump is at odds with the members of the party. a lot of members are on board

with expanding the border to the extent that trump wants to do it. so that's the reason. it's obligated issue and it's hard to get all of one party to agree on something let alone this. i was not a trump supporter, mostly on grounds of his temperament, rather a fit for the job but also policy issues and one was immigration, another was trade. those are two issues i disagreed on. i like his education policies and secretary. i'm a big supporter of school choice vouchers, big supporter of charter holes and tax credits

and all the rest. i like the fact that trump appointed her and he also has been supportive of education twice. when people talk about where i see this country going, i think it's all going to come down to getting a peaceful education for kids in these poor communities. it's going to be at the root of everything and i have no faith in the traditional public schools in this country because i don't believe they are acting primarily in the interest of the children these days. i think they are acting primarily in the interest of the adults, public education has been a child program, instead of a education problem. whether it's alternative public systems like public charter schools or doctors that allow people to take the kids out of

school and send them to private schools, i think the public education school needs reform from within. so for me, trump has been amidst that. i don't criticize him or praise him. if he does something i like, i'll say something nice and iffy does something i don't like, i will criticize him. >> you can listen to this and other programs on our free c-span app. jim, your next. good afternoon. >> thank you for taking my call. there's a lot of poverty, primarily overwhelmingly white. a lot of people in this area, attendance of the immigration

from the dustbowl area in the 1930s and there seems to me, a lot of poverty has been here for generations. is there a fundamental difference, do you think between what i see in certain communities and black poverty versus white property? i have also seen examples of police, sheriffs, it's not so much color, it's poverty. at least where i live. so what you see as a difference, similarities, any fundamentals? >> thank you. i don't see fundamentally a lot of difference. i think the same human capital

are out of poverty. authors more recently are written movingly about the situation in white america. i think it received less attention because they are a smaller percentage of white. at a fundamental level, no. i don't see any difference in how you go about helping these groups or what they need to do to change their situation. >> one reason the return on stock investments have been so eager is that black politicians often act in ways that benefit themselves and do not represent the concerns of most box. that's not unique to black politicians but it seems like a generalization. >> perhaps. but i would argue there are

examples to make it relatively accurate. politicians have the interest of getting reelected, no matter what color they are. president obama goes into office and blacks have voted to put him back. one issue that holds very well in the black immunity is both charter schools and voucher programs pulls very well among blacks. one of the first things obama tries to do as president is shutdown the voucher program which is disproportionately helping box. why would he do this? why would he take an issue that is overwhelmingly popular among blacks and shut it down?

now he's president. part of the reason is that the teachers union helped take him president. a special interest group. they don't like school vouchers because many of the schools whether factors are used are not unionized. so they want these kids in traditional public schools, not in barter programs. so obama has to make a decision to act in the interest of the special interest or fellow box and he made his choice. i think all the politicians have the same dilemma and made a similar twice. that's where i'm hoping about looking to politicians to address some of these basic needs in the black community. politicians have their own political interest to be

preoccupied with. they will not always align with the interest of black politicians. >> charles, good afternoon. >> thank you for taking my call. i was wondering, would you say there's a majority within the black immunity? how would you describe it? >> there's an interesting book written by a scientist, the university of new york called black majority. he makes the argument that the black political leads have not always acted in the interest of the black poor. even the majority of plaques. i think he made a strong argument. if you take something like cri

crime, pulse will tell you, people and criminal justice system is system is too easy, the general public house posters that it's too easy on criminals. that's not what you will hear coming out of the mouth of black politicians or civil rights groups activists but that is what a black person on the street while tiger. i mentioned the example of education where the interest of the interest of average box, back in the days when they supported it, most box did not. so there's a long history here of what will advance his political career versus what black community actually wants. what a lot of people are counting on is that blacks will

vote democrat or stay home. they do not fear black constituents will vote republican. that's one thing they can count on not happening. that's an example of they taken that for granted. that's what they are saying that. one way to fix that would be republicans make a play for this in fact way blacks could use our two-party system the way other groups in america use the two-party system to get what they want. right now, you don't see a lot of that happening. >> have you looked at the divorce rate among black men versus poor white man is it same, similar,

disproportionately different? do you know where we were in the 60s and where we are today? >> i don't know if those numbers off the top of my head. if i had to guess, i just don't know. i don't want to speculate on that. >> i asked because the roots of poverty, those who grew up in single parent homes. they wonder why women get the children and not the men. is that just part of society? you are smiling. >> yes, the sociologists and others that have looked at this, they look at the best interest of the child. that would be my guess but yes, family breakdown, when you control the family breakdown, you often get very different results. an example recently, the study done by yesterday, they broke it

down by rate among kids. when you controlled broken families, whites were suspended at higher rates than plaques in these escrows. very interesting because this is one issue where liberal activists have looked at racial disparity, this one being school suspension and automatically treated to racism here we have less control for the environment and you go to a very different outcome. >> washington times starting in 2012 cited census data among blacks, nearly 5 million children, 54% live with only the mother and 12% were black households have two parents

present compared to 41% of hispanic households. >> yes. that's attitudes toward marriage and childbearing. again, this is all post great society. this is not what we are seeing prior to that. it matters and it's become almost taboo to say that out loud. when you have child coming from a family, all kinds of life outcomes improve for that child. the chances of them getting involved in the criminal justice system, the chance of them becoming teenage parents and graduating from school, all increase and in the right

direction. don't often have professions about the nuclear family. >> go ahead. >> good morning. thank you so much for this dialogue you are all having he here, it's right up my l.a. i'll be 40 very soon, i grew up in the criminal justice system. i have so much on my mind right now, be patient with me. i make it this out. so i have christian values and views, i was raised to believe to respect authority. have been given his place for a reason and appointed by god.

we are supposed to respect that. i voted for obama, i'm interested for politics for the first time i cleaned up my record, cut off probation parole and started reintegrating back into society and getting back to what i wanted to do when i was a kid. those dreams before i got thrown off and distracted. by everything a black man faces. education was really quick. one thing i really sustained me growing up through the justice system and through gangs and everything a black man faces, my mom was an educator. it's norwalk, california. i'm on the west coast. my mom was an educator for long

beach unified school district. she's very well known. she was very strict and she always came home. my dad worked for mcdonnell douglas in the aerospace industry in the 60s so i saw that work ethic for my father as a black man. when i went to school, i had my own struggles at school. my teachers, it was really hard to get the attention i needed in school so i had to figure it out on my own. i was kind of a class clown, i would always want to be seen and heard, i thought i really needed it. i thought i was gifted and i'm also an aspiring journalist so fast forward to today, i wanted to say the black community is very beautiful. we can contribute to society and we've come so far.

i've heard it all and seen all. as far as our past and what our ancestors did to get where we are today. it's a beautiful thing where we contribute to society and i see poverty and crime but education like mentioned earlier is very key and teachers need to pay more attention to black students and like the chairman said earlier, i've seen him tackle and confront many viable issues in the black community. white, asian, mexican, every community and every issue that they're getting too. i've seen them confront that. i've always been the underdog so i believe in trump. i give him a pat on the back for staying strong through all the

adversity with all the impeachment inquiries and everything. so my question is, to the judgment on here, from your perspective as an intellectual man, i really admire and respect you, the way you speak and how articulate you are. i admire that. you don't see that much here. so i want to know from your perspective, as a black man for the black community, do you honestly believe donald trump has are best interest at heart and you think we should, -- i'm a democrat -- >> you put on the table, thank you for sharing your story.

how do you answer that? >> i think donald trump has trumps interest in mind and i think donald trump always has had trumps best interest in mind. the question is whether that matters in terms of black progress in this country. can a president, who doesn't necessarily have the interest of blacks, or is in different, facilitate? i think there's no doubt that is true. i would point to advances of black people have made under previous administrations. when the person in the white house was indifferent to what was going on in black america,

games that i had earlier in the first half of the 20th century. blacks can prosper donald trump, i have no doubt about that but it doesn't necessarily mean it's because he has their best interest. >> what did you hear from her race? what you take away from his story? >> i'm glad he seems to have turned his life around. he seems to think that education has a lot to do with it. he didn't take it as seriously as he should have when he was younger and now he understands how important it is. i would agree with that. it painful to listen to black civil rights organizations some of these politicians running for

president, turned their back on charter schools. which has a tremendous record of success, particularly in helping low income, poor inner-city box. we have example after example after example of kids in schools that are 90% plus black, all free and reduced lunch in terms of income, testing, hitting it out of the park. i was scoring kids in the suburbs. the idea we would not be replicating these education models is completely absurd to me. you have a burning sanders and naacp and elizabeth warren saying they want a a moratorium on charter schools for these kinds of results in the black inner-city. this guy i think is a testament

to how important education is. it certainly was in my case. the idea that there is a connection in these inner cities between the high dropout rates and poor test scores and all the other social elements going on in these communities, there is a connection. our jails and prisons are not full of college graduate or even high school graduates so it pains me when i watch people attack school reform the way i hear some of them. >> good afternoon. >> he talked about leaders and the angels of our higher nature. it seems that the current occupants right away coming down

an escalator, he talked about the difference coming across the southern border of being murders and rapists and there was a judge in his case, at the university in arizona, being hispanic. therefore, would it be fair to him ask the example of racism. so it's obvious that some politicians, perhaps including the president are not appealing to our higher nature on the issue of immigration among other things but the question is, is evangelical, 81% i believe that support him. wondering how, of course they

have to know the statements of jesus serving on the mountain, where it's the opposite of the christian viewpoint. jason, have you ever, what's your opinion on the on how people claim to be christians or political leader that so blatantly racist? that's my question. >> i think an evangelical would turn around and.back to a reverend and say i've known christians for abortion. so both sides play the game. what's going on is that they are voting on other issues and if you ask people in an evangelical community why they support this president despite all of the

baggage that comes along with that, they'll talk about the judges he's appointed and they'll say those are the tests i have used and i will let everything else go because i decided this is what is most important to me and all voters do that. went to get a candidate that likes everything you like and agrees. >> this is from chuck in ohio. recent interview with morgan friedman saying stop racism and his response was, morgan friedman said stop talking about it. last month what's your reaction? >> i agree with that to some extent.

to the extent that again, for the civil rights industry that i mentioned earlier, keeping place front and center is good for business. it means it gets, it doesn't really belong. it's at test, a side issue. maybe that's what morgan friedman was getting at. but everything isn't about race and racism. yet, that seems to be the direction we are getting too often in. >> hello. i've seen this several times in the last few years, in terms of

black professional life, he knows quite well that he's given pertaining to the blacks who have entered the professional supposed, increased tremendously from the late 60s into now. that has not been expanded as much during the previous years. they made progress but they come from conservative racist groups. as it relates to the black policy, i'm one of them. many do and that statement he made, he's conservative. any of the teachers unions don't support that because they have

the same kind of standard in public schools. i respect some of his conservative views and i agreed with him but it's increasing black professional lives. he knows that's not true. thank you. >> anthony, your response. >> i said before, the track record of affirmative action is not something we need to speculate about. i mentioned a situation california system in terms of what happened after it ended, you could point to florida and seek the same result. it's also a similar policy put in place. >> in terms of the data on what was going on in the first half of the 20th century, the government data. that's not something from any

conservative organization, it's widely available. anyone who cares to look. it's not very well known and i understand why it's not very well known but it's not why it's not true. the rate at which blacks were entering middle-class professions, and leading poverty. all of those rates were far higher in the period prior to the 1950s and the decades immediately following the 60s. before the policies were put in place but in terms of higher education, we have particularly strong data to show what's going on here. harvard was recently taken by a group of asian students who were sued because they said harvard was putting in place quotas.

on who could enter the school. so we have tons of data on the race of people, but here's they entered and so forth. affirmative action is harmful in another way as well. you can talk about the equal protection clause and discrimination, you can talk about whether it just makes sense to pick and choose favorite groups in a plural society. or you can say it doesn't work. doesn't work as intended? have we experienced what the proponent said we would experience if we put these policies in place? there was a study done at mit from two years ago about blacks who had been admitted to that school. highly selective schools.

blacks had been admitted to mit and in the top 10% on the map portion in the country. you're talking about very smart black kids. they were in the bottom 10% among their peers. as a result, more or dropping out or switching to easier majors and so forth. you taken an extremely smart black kid and set them up to fail. kids who would be heading out of the park, they are struggling at mit because mit wanted to make it freshman class look like america. regardless of what they would actually graduate. affirmative action has had these harmful byproducts that nobody foresaw or very few people foresaw some did, which is interesting reading to look at those articles but by and large,

it's been accepted as a universal threat. it increased the ranks of the black middle class and if they are better off but just not simply track record. >> one person who write about is daniel patrick, before he began the senator for new york, worked for vincent and before that, the johnson. what's his legacy? >> one of his legacies, he worked several different hats. report he released in the 1960s about black family. the trends he saw in their situation and he was looking at increases and homes. he said this will not go well in terms of going forward for these communities. work participation and so forth. he came under a tremendous amount of attack for his

conclusion. it was based on the work of black sociologist in the 40s. he was the contestants view among people in this material but he became the face of it. he was attacked as a racist as someone who was blaming the victim. you have to remember at the time this was the don of the civil rights and voting rights act and he was getting away in the way of this. what ended up happening was the way he was treated did not go unnoticed by sociologists, scientists, anyone else who wanted to look into this situation. it was off for many years. it didn't make professional sense around here. windup being called a racist and

everything. there was a long. of black in this area, what was going on social economically among blacks in this area. more recently, you had sociologists that decided to look into it and the more recent decades. then patterson looked at this they said we have to talk about this stuff. it's the elephant in the room. we can't talk about all of these disparities going on, all these racial disparities we see going on in american society. he was talking about culture. it's ridiculous to even try doing this. yes, it plays a role in outcomes and we need to talk about it. for decades, many social lossless stay clear of this.

the people who need the most help. >> please stop helping us, liberals make it harder for blacks to succeed and let them come up the case for open borders and false black power. jim is next. go ahead. >> hello, jason. i want to follow up on comments you made earlier. my understanding regarding the dreamers was that president trump did allow 800,000 to become permanent residents or citizens but he tied it to building a law to prevent uncontrolled border crossings. he didn't just cancel out president obama executive order. he actually was trying to make it even more but also make it a

law that would make it more permanent and not temporary. i'm wondering how you can speak a little easier on president trump. that's how i see it and i may new citizen here. i came and got educated here in college and i got naturalized. to me, i don't see this, feeling a year. it's actually sort of affecting the culture. i thought i would tie it to dreamers, it doesn't seem unreasonable. >> thank you. the president was trying to tie the fate of the dreamers to funding for his wall. the democrats, they are not

going to compromise on the wall and the president knew they weren't going to budge on the issue or he should have known they were going to budge on the issue. whether or not it was a good proposal, who knows. but that's what he was attempting to do. >> the problem is that they could do this as i stand alone. i think you have enough democratic support to get this done. i think it would help him politically as well, given that there is such bipartisan support for doing something about the dreamers. taking them out of this limbo. >> the president, an interesting mindset to the topic of immigration, which is why i was

explaining in terms of economic outcome in america, notwithstanding the fact that we have so many people here illegally. the president sees this as a game essentially. an immigrant i'm here to take a job, most will tell you they work in this country but that's the mindset that president trump brings to this issue. the call also mentioned whether immigrants are having too large of an impact on our culture just a time honored concerns we've had in this country. every new wave of immigrant gets the same reaction. it predates to america. benjamin franklin was complaining about too many germans coming to pennsylvania in the mid- 1700s.

he said they'll never learn our language, they will take us before we get them. this is an old concern. german immigration, germans were coming in at a much higher rate than mexicans and a much smaller country than they would be much later. so this is our time on our concern and it's one of the reasons it's very difficult to get things done on immigration in this country. you couple that with what you had in the obama your switches slow economic growth. he inherited the recession from george w. bush and he was the only one for most of his presidency. you have a very toxic when the there, immigrants and economic problems that we have today. not that we have come out of a recession and seen the growth, now that we see increases in wages and so forth without a

wall without deportation, it makes you wonder whether they were in fact the problem to begin with. if you bring the mindset that trumped us into this with the fact that he thinks it was a winning issue for him, whether or not it's true and whether or not it makes sense. thanks lily it helps him at the polls. i don't expect him to change his tune no matter how many are for him. >> a text message saying for black democrats in the plantation, upward mobility to move to the 1%. to get to the wealthy. >> what will it take for black democrats to leave the plantation?

>> republicans want to want blacks to stop voting in such high percentages they need to make a place for this boat. today, too few make that effort. for whatever reason, if your some of our public outlier, that's got to change. if you expect black voting problems patterns to change. >> mine is more of our comments. i can understand why the afro-americans made progress after 1945 because the programs of fdr in the 30s and industrialization of the country, everybody improved.

if you look back at the opinion on republican ideology versus democrats ideology in regards to all kinds of rights, not just civil rights for african-american rights or black rights but women's rights, workers rights, unions rights, gender rights and sexual rights all the way around. both lbj, it's a bunch of old white guys to vote for the civil rights laws. that's what happened. at that time, when the south the democratic party was going toward civil rights, they all went republican because they were segregationists. if you look at who's been supporting, it's the democratic party all along. republicans almost resigned themselves of trying to have a

white vote, no matter what it does to other people. i don't know peripheral economic, whatever trump has done, which i don't really see it. i don't think that many other people are. you begin your book, help us remember the class of 1965 in washington d.c. >> she says you can't simply give people equal rights. you have to give a special price because of what blacks do in the past and that's why he attempted to do. then we have 50 years trying to give special rights. i do want to correct something

the caller made about everyone did better in the post war experience and new deal. he's right. black incomes and black education rose not only in absolute terms but also relative to white income and white education levels and so forth. in other words, blacks were closing the gap. they weren't just making gains in absolute terms. that's an important distinction. so when the economy was doing well in the postwar period, they did rise but some rose higher than others and blacks were a significant progress in catching up. again, these trends would later slow down or sometimes reverse course. >> the last word on this

conversation, go ahead. >> thank you for taking my call. i agree with mr. riley, we were talking about the gains that blacks made. i grew up in baltimore in a place called cherry hill. the only plant community for blacks at the federal government felt. i wrote a book about it called cherry hill raising successful black children in altamont. mr. riley states that he feels the johnson's with the johnson program killed that progress but i want him to come comments on how the reagan budget cuts affect our progress. >> thank you. >> she said what? >> benign progress.

benign neglect. >> i don't think it was benign neglect. i don't think they can be called benign. these were huge government expansions. we spent trillions of dollars on antipoverty programs. the war on poverty, housing programs and so forth. i think what it shows is the limit. it's only so much but the government can do. we also know what it can't do. if you take away good policing, if you take away good schools and stable homes, this is nothing the government can do to replace. >> how can blacks defeat today? >> we need to pass honest conversation about the problem we face. we need to talk about black rights for example, black incarceration rates.

basic things like that need to take place. honest conversations about what the studies say and intact families safe. outcomes later in life and so forth. second, what i want from the government is to stop doing things we know don't work. affirmative action, higher education is not working based on the track record of affirmative action. antipoverty programs that does incentivize work. they will not develop the work ethic they need to get out of poverty and stay out of poverty. i'll keep -- they keep it's trapped in schools, they know a model has been successful in teaching kids in the most difficult backrest. let those models proliferate. it's more about what the government should stop doing than what it should start doing but in terms of the commentary

and intellectuals and academics and the rest, let's have honest conversation about what is actually happening out there and whether the causes are or not. >> what are your favorite books? >> rockefeller comes to mind. because it showed not only how wealthy he became but how much he improved american society in the process. whether it was building black schools or making things cheap so everyone can enjoy them, not just the rich and you didn't

have to stop working when the sun went down at night. i enjoyed the history lesson i got out of that. in addition to learning a lot about rockefeller. a lot of the books i'm reading now are in the research of my intellectual biography it ...