tv Hudson Institute Discussion on Human Rights in China CSPAN December 27, 2019 3:14pm-4:25pm EST
and the like. they've never had to think about these things in such a precise way. that you could actually write them into a computer program or into an algorithm. >> then sunday night, on word word word, new york magazine contributor thomas chatterton will ymca with his latest book, self-portrait in black and white >> i realize the black experience was more diverse than i had over in in my corner of new jersey, and through getting into jazz and read other writers more seriously, i began to wonder why my friends and i had such a narrow conception of this rich cultural tradition and why i thought my father was outside of this cultural tradition when he was na many ways exemplifying it. >> watch booktv this weekend and eave weekend on c-span2.
>> next, look at human rights guss against muslim groups in northwest china. this panel includes a journalist who reported on the chinese government's establishment of reeducation centers, targeting muslim my importants and a human rights activist. >> welcome to the hudson institute, i'm nina shea, and i want to wish everyone happy holidays holidays and i'm also want to draw your attention to the crisis in china against the us uyghur population the. one of the worst relation rights and percent accuse situations of
our day and age. it is a crisis of religious persecution and human rights violations of epic proportions. and will be hearing more pout that through the session today. all people should be concerned for china as a rising power, aimed to make this a model, not only for other groups within its borders but is exporting this model. it is of deep concern to me as someone who monitors' freedom around the world, and i know it is to you here in this room in the audience, and it is my deep privilege to introduce ambassador at large for'll freedom of the u.s. state department, sam brownback. he is going to be giving our keynote address in just a moment. i have known ambassador
brownback for 25 years, when he was in the senate and we were working together on other human rights crises, including sudan, which today is actually a source of hope in the world. so, i'm very pleased to see him now in this position as the religious freedom ambassador, someone who has been empowered under this administration and through congress and he is really the institutional face of religious freedom as a priority in u.s. foreign policy. his ministerials he has organized and innovated have brought hundreds -- in fact thousands of people from all over he world who are deeply vested in religious freedom. these are survivors of religious persecution, advocates, world
leaders, from across the globe. and please join me in welcoming sam brownback. [applause] >> thanks, nina. pri that's right greatly. a measure to be pack at hudson. you find this interesting. more something than most. i was on the phone this morning with the prime minister of sudan. which was not a normal thing for me, 20-25 years ago when we were fighting the bashear regime and they were state sponsoring terrorism that the out experienced unfortunately first hand, but i think it does show that if you keep after an issue and you're on the right side you can win and you will win. and that i'm very hopeful. it is one of the sources and places of great hope in the world today. we hope things continue to move forward in the right direction. also want to thank hudson
institute for hosting the vice president and the secretary of state mike pompeo at different times to speak here in hudson regarding china. i think those have been wonderful speeches. i looked at both of those, and i think they offer a template on issues of china and u.s. policy towards china. this administration has been really the first in decades to take on china and the repressive regime, and have done absolutely, i think, brilliant, tough, good job in confronting china and i think it's been important we do that. i'm pleased to join that discussion now and it's a key priority for this administration. the people's republic of china, they're brutal campaign of repegues against uyghurs, and other muslims in xinjiang. my thanked to hudson institute
and the distinguished experts for keeping the conversation in washington going. this administration has recognized that it's important to analyze and respond to these pusses from all angle, so i appreciate the discussion and the insights at today's events. i've said it before and will keep saying it until one day it's no longer true. china is at war with faith, but it is a war they will not win. in the meantime, while it continues, chinese government continues to engage in a high stakes game of subterfuge, attempting to cloak the truth about it's true intentions and activities but we will not be fooled. the chinese government can refer to inhuman treatment as war on terror, as countering religious extremism. it can label it's internment
camps as so-called vocational training centers and claim that detainees have graduated, but the evidence is clear. clearly this is not just a war on faith but a war on truth and international norms. and we know the facts. earlier this year ambassador nathan sales and i co authored on op-ed state that they reexpensesive campaign in xinjiang is not cower terror -- counterterror jim, race a regime of oppression. terrorism is a very real threat, including in the united states and in china, but conflating peaceful religious practices and identity with terrorism is beyond disengine us a. it is uncon shenable. and also unconscionable is
imposing pervasive high-tech surgicallance and monitoring thought the region. this unfortunately, i believe, is the future of what much oppression is going to look like. i think you're seeing the front wave of it in xinjiang. they also prevent muslims from doing their regular daily prayers or forcing them to consume pork and alcohol and shave boreds, preventing children from attending mosque or, destroying -- the chinese government is destroying mosques, cemetery and other religious and cultural heritage sites and, of course detaining more than 1 million members of muslim minority groups and intern immigrant -- internment camps since april of 201 and in our current world, 2019, a million muslim people in xinjiang nor internment camps.
almost unthinkable. but these are the abuses that the prc government is trying hide and denying. so i believe it was game-changer when the xinjiang cables came to -- she's reports are constant with an overwhelming and growing body of evidence that the communicates touchdown yeas party is committing human rights violations and abuses against individuals in mass detention and in these papers, you saw the brown and the thinking of -- the background and the thinking of it. the documents reveal that the c cp has orchestrated and this it nonrandom. it's intentional. those who may have been inclined to believe the prc government or who were bully into believing it can read the documents and see the depth and breath of what is happening in xinjiang.
if you know anything but china, you know that the prc government's campaign of repression is not unique to xinjiang. in part that's pause the ccp first installed the regions party secretary -- i want you to remember that name -- chen quan bo in dib pet where he had surveillance, cameras, police stations, databases, explosion security forces, life in tibet, including religious life was forever transportation formed. considered a success. tchen took his play book to xinjiang, amplifying his tactics on an unfathomable scale. this week the economist magazine note it the parallels between tibet and xinjiang and tchen's role in replicating repression. my fear -- i think of the hudson
institute as well -- that these sorts sorts of replications of repression will continue and increase around the world. they need to be stopped now. so the document strength -- what we now but the pusses and the administrations ongoing resolve is to respond to them. importantly we continue to promote accountability for those who complete human rights abuses and the department of state has designated china as a country of particular concern under the international religious freedom october of 1998 for enjalenning in or tolerating severe violations of religious freedom. such religious freedom violations are hardly the only human rights abuse that the prc government is perpetrating perpn xinjiang and compels but when a country doesn't resuspect the life to freely practice one's
faith and belief and everything that entails we often see other rights significantly emperilled. these include the freedom of association, assembly, speech, and the freedom of movement. and in addition to the country of particular concern designation that is specific to religious freedom violations, we have seen a multifalls setted u.s. response -- multi facetted u.s. response. at the president's global call for religious freedom event at the u.n. the first ever by a head of state to call for the topic of religious freedom at the u.n. general asemi. there was powerful from uyghurs and family members.
i want to stop here. note as well last week there was another testimonial in xinjiang on capitol hill and i ran into the young people from xinjiang who testified. two of them told of family members convicted of seven to nine years and put in jail for them, the young are family member, out in speaking. so god bless to the poem people from xinjiang to speak out. comes at significant cost to them personally and their family. a number of agencies have -- visa sanctions for the chinese officials, the department of commerce added 28 chinese governmental and commercial entities to its entity list which prevents them from a big u.s. products or importing u.s. technology that could be used to repress religious and ethnic nye
motors. and the u.s. customs and border patrol issued a withhold release order to ensure that producted made by a chinese company in xinjiang do not end up in american stores. we welcome the role that a growing number of international actors play in calling out these abuses. we want to see more of this in the months ahead and will tone to encourage stakeholders to take up the mantel. a multilateral response is vital the dispute four other countries doe hosted a discussion on the margins of the unup general assembly on the human rights crisis in xinjiang. more than 30 u.n. states attended and eu representatives and oic delegation and 20ndos and i it was standing room only. a remarkable turnout. importantly several uyghur survivors shared their harrowing
stories. they provide an eye witness testimony. this is factual testimony that they provide. this is no horning -- no longer allegations. these are eye witnesses. the united states is month 23 signatoriys on a joint statement delivered the u.n. third committee in october. i'm recalls working with a group to launch a priority announced at this year's ministerial. called the international religious freedom alliance. the first ever international body devoted to religious belief, bringing together countries. and this is the first new international human rights organization in a generation. it focus just on the issue of international religious freedom. we hope to have that stood up and launched the first part of
next year i'm reach taught a number of done throughs to bring them onboard. as i close i want to humanize the repression in xinjiang and elsewhere in china. these are innocent civilians, peacefully practicing their faith also their conscious leads. dreaming of prosperity and happiness for themselves and for their children. they do not need their way of thinking reprogrammed. they do not need their government controlling and monitoring every aspect of their lives. they need, they deserve fro. freedom of religion to practice their faith peace any also they see fit. that's what i and others in this administration are working towards. i want to say thank you g.o.p. the hudson institute for hosting this discussion and inviting me and for performly hosting the vice president and the secretary of state to cuss human rights abuses in china.
the expertise you bring to the discussion is tremendously helpful to this administration, continues to employ -- that we continue to employ a variety of tools as we call on people's republic of china, the chinese communist party to immediately release all those arbitrarily detained and to end it draconian policy that terrorize the ethnic and religious minority groups in xinjiang. he we will continue to push back on china's. thank you very much. god bless you all. [applause]
>> thank you for fog their on this panel discussion of xinjiang discussion. we launched the program of seminars without xinjiang in earl 2017 to help challenge what can be best described as the u.s.' post 9/11 political complacency over what the chinese communist party claims its it own war on terrorism in the vast northwestern territory of the prc empire known as shin ongoing. that u.s. reapplies sal was
needed and then has been long overdue. no are decree kids the uyghur people have suffered from oppression and discrimination in they're home happen known as as -- made clear beijing would be ramping up the efforts to subjugate the uyghurs, and shin john has one transformed into the most heavily survived and oppressive garrison states than that the word has seen the communitiest party has don't to extraordinary lengths to suppress information and prop gab dies what is is is doing in xinjiang, bought i'd china in around the world and in the united states. should say back in september of 2018, abbas who is here with us
today, longtime leader human rights activist and an american citizen, spoke here on a penalty civics days later would of his family members in xinjiang, he aunt and sister, vanished. ' 'one of their whereabouts is still unknown. what we do know thinks to vital work of the panelis and countlesslies that have risk third arrived, over 10're of the population has want forced into mass internment camps for ideology reeducation. the war on uyghur fates the definition of defense make. the chinese communist rulers dismissed reports about the camps as fake news spreadly we were journalists and think tanks and instead tried and seeded at persuading a large part of the world, until now, that the camps
are in fact vocational training centers which uyghurs volunteerly attend. last month the league of classified party documents obtained by the international consortium revealed the party's story about xinjiang like so much elves is a -- so much else is a live. the china cables exposed how the party has planned and implemented the largest scale persecution of a distinct ethnic religious group since the end of world war2. the papers provide us a glimpse into the party's blueprint for the destruction of a people. here to discuss this is are the leading u.s. based experts, i'm happy to welcome bethany with axios and when who reads thing but china knows her byline from
axios, and also from the daily beast and foreign policy. second, dr. adrian zenz whose research has been key in acknowledging the existence of the camps and documenting the buildup of the prc police state. third we'll hear from nury turkel, part of an organization he founded in 2003. nury was born in a communist reeducation camp at the height of the cultural revolution. important to keep that in mind. of we hear from our suckers we'll have a q & a period this afternoon we'll be conducting that a little differently today. all of are going to be receiving pieces of paper and pencils to please right on them concise questions and we'll collect them
halfway through the panel this morning so we can address them when we have time for questions at the end. thank you again. with that, we report start with bethany. >> thank you to hudson institute for hosting yet another panel on if the important issue. i served as ici's lead reporter for the china cable project alongside 75 journalists. three months ago i was handed a stack of documents that looked like this. and said, here, you have two months. and when i first saw them i thought, this is very important. but the more i looked into them, the more i realized how truly groundbreaking and important they were. will briefly talk but each set of documents and then go into the key takeaways from each one. so, first we have what we call a telegram or the operating manual for the camps.
that was tis disseptember mated in -- disseptember many -- a set of classified intelligence briefings, known as bulletins that details the inside look at the operations of the integrated joint operations platform, mass data collection and artificial intelligence powered predictive policing platform that is behind much of the very advanced police state we see in xinjiang, and thirdly a uyghur language court document that shows the tragedy of what happens to one individual man who was sentenced to ten years in prison, simply for ex-extorting fellow muslims to not watch pornography and
pray regularly. this the first anytime chinese government's own words an admission that the camps are not voluntary, but are in fact highly securitized prison centers. the first connection which talks but security, urges camp personnel to prevent escapes, to prevent abnormal deaths. those two phrases and the instructions that are given to carry those out prove that the chinese communist government's speaking points about the camps are lies. it is not normal for boarding schools or vocational education centers to prevent the escapes of students, to put up high walls, to command -- demand
absolute secrecy of the personnel, to put up barbed wire and guards, yet all these thing are spelled out in this document. the command to prevent abnormal deaths is even more chilling. what itshow ises is that the entire party state in xinjiang knew beyond a shadow of a dowd that by putting these people in these facilities, they were putting their lives at grave risk. now, it is a very bare bones minimal degree of good that the command is to prevent abnormal deaths and not to cause abnormal deaths. what that indicates to me is that at least as of november 2017 that's were not intended to be mass murder camp us is clearon a shadow of a doubt in the chinese government's own words the conditions are dire, and that
the security level and the lack of oversight in these camps is deadly or potentially deadly. a few other highlights or -- highlight is not the cent word publish chilling statements is the use of a classification and point system inside the camps that is a miniature version of the social credit system. so detainees are awarded or docked points based on their behavior and that part of the points are awarded based on test scores, and those points are used in part to determine when detainees are able to be released. this could be stated as perhaps the most high stakes testing when it determines your freedom or perhaps even your life, the love of your family member. and i will highlight again the final -- one of the final commands in the telegram is to
maintain strict secrecy. this is very significant because it seems the chinese government has settled as their current talking point regarding the camps block briefly to the bulletin to ijop have the internal workings house police officers on the local level in xinjiang were communicating and receiving orders from a artificial intelligence powered precrime kind of policing system known as
ijop. one part of this -- there's one directive i sat with for literally hours because i found it so shocking, in the period of one week, ijop, again some set of algorithms -- spit out the names of 24,000 people and send the names to local police departments and in a period 0 one week 15,000 of them were dough takenned and put into camps based on some unknown set of algorithms. the still what determining that suspicious and they were rounded up and put into camps based on some computer's designation of them. a total violation of human rights. this is not effective policing. it is without exaggeration a real life manifestation of movie "minority report" and there was no question -- the rest of that
particular bulletin delved into issues regarding this mass detention in one week of more than 15,000 people and the issues w. not, how do we know they're really guilty? how do we know they would do something bad. the issues raised is why weren't we able to detain even more of those people. almost 9,000 people who escaped. white weren't we able to detain them. we get an illinois of this machine that has been set in motion that is similar kind of industrialized bureaucratic enabled also we saw in world were 2 the separation between the morality and the moral on gages of individuals and the actual command. this police officers are not having to make decisions. they're removed from that they're just following orders and it makes human right violation is on a massive scale much more possible for the human
beings who have been tasked with carrying them out and i'll leave it at that. >> do you have a sense of what the chinese people themselves know about the china cables and about the camps and xinjiang? >> i will say the chinese government in may denied me a veals a to go to china. because of that i have not been able to speak on the ground with chinese people themselves. hough my understanding from reading many reports and having -- being able to reed chinese social media which is highly cent sore -- ven censored -- is that most chinese people have no sense there was any kind of regime of surveillance or mass detention there. now, because the colonies -- chinese government has come out with an official line of
propaganda, some chinese people are aware there are perhaps some facilities, some vocational education training centers but don't have any idea. i did in fact -- i have spoken -- i've had phone calls with people in china who tried to spread the word and their friends and family men's do not believe them because it seems unbelievable. on top of that i just very quickly add there's a deep-seated prejudice and a sense of regularly practiced discrimination that haunts chinese have long practiced against uighurs. the stereo types of being backwards and dirty and criminals of that is not true but there's no forced pushback against that so they have a
predilection to think the uyghurs deserve what is going on against them. >> thank you. a privilege to be invitedded for the first time for the hudson institute. my pleasure to be here and give you a very short presentation about internment and intergeneration wall separation and involuntary labor in xinjiang. the attempt here that i'm going to make is to string together and tie together the three unprecedented aspect of beijing's internment campaign in xinjiang and look at the long-term implications. the first is internment for reeducation. which we all know about and just heard about. the second is intergenerational operation of personalities children which is a long-term plan, and the third is coercive labor-northeast long-term scheme.
internment, besides the china cables and the xinjiang papers which gave in the overall idea of the internment strategy, more localized information gives us some very specific insight into how internment works and also what it does, what is really the purpose of the enter. for reeducation. interestingly, the available data shows, and this i published in my paper that came out on november 24th, at the same time as the china cables leak -- that's she enterment campaign for re-information has clearly targeted influence in society weapon know about academics, party members, musicians, artists and intellectuals being targeted. on the ground, it's really household heads, typically males, especially ages 30 to 59, the higher preparation than they
are represented in the overall population. minority villagers, they are -- has been internment shares up to other 5% of 2- -- 50 % of household head. in some.'m -- wifes and daughters only 3% to 4%. total internships between 8.4% to 28.4 been%. unlining what we have been surmising and suspecting and thinking and believing. we have here an internment, clear strategy of a long-term coercive change of the minorities. so even though part of the internment are winding down, and
china says some persons are being shifted out internment which they call the release; it's important to keep in mind the long-term plan behind internment and who they have targeted and been breaking because reeducation is a breaking of people on the inside and trying to change them forever. if that should be possible to break the human soul. the second aspect i have to go very briefly here is intergenerational separation. the ability to shelter children, minor children, full-time, in boring facilities, from young ages. the third one is involuntary labor this, spreadsheet showing the construction notices for factory blocks on the -- intern
camp, 30,000 square meters, 300,000 or 290,000 square feet. these factories come in all kinds of shapes and size. might be inside internment compounds, might be next to them in industrial parks, midnight be in completely different locations, but interesting aspect here here is how involuntarily labor is eninning mering through enter generation -- one satellite factories who have nurseries for infants and this particular example, mother of the young children, the youngest only 13 months old, was put to full-time labor and her kids are being taken carr of the the caretaking system which starts at infancy.
conclusion: the next step for us in the west, i believe, is to move into the divestment from china's business of oppression in xinjiang. one well-known government maker looked into their supply chains and defended to continue to procure yarn from a well-known chinese large textile maker who supplies several western companies and then they said, day, we don't want you yarn from xinjiang because there might be a problem. i'd like to just -- this is a very complex topic that would require an in-depth presentation but due to shortam of time i want to highlight through the mutual pairing assist -- one county in xinjiang alone send
over 100 surplus labors to help with fact factories in eastern china. 2017 -- person -- work and receive training in factories. which is a very complex thing. usual pairing facilitates increasingly mandatory transfers, state planned and scheduled transfers of minority laborers to the 19 paired cities and provinceses. of there, for companies have my chains from xinjiang and also from china companies. with that note i conclude. thank you. [applause] >> nury. >> thank you, eric. i'd like to begin by thanking
the hudson institute for organizing this terrific panel the fourth time that the hudson institute organized public event to shine a light on the ongoing cries. it is a real honor to be with adrian and bethany. they are heros to me and many others. my remarks focus on three key issued related to recent leaks s to "new york times." did we learn anything now but the nate tour and scope thereof he enterment cams in the uyghur region? sect what is party lettership acknowledge about ambitions and final live what has been the response been since the leaks. the government documents offered an unprecedented look inside china's highly organized, systemic, targeted oppression of uyghurs and other targeted peoples. in one spoom the chinese communicate hay party jinping gives offereds to use dictate
dictateorship and show no mercy. being different is bad, therefore forced transform make is absolutely necessary. the chinese government does not publicly admit this. but its leaders clearly see both uyghur, uyghur identity and legislation as inherent by disloyal and a threat to the state's security and communityize party ruled. what is the significant of leaked documents? first, the orders come from the very top. of the 403 payments in "the new york times" leak 96 payments are speaks by xi jinping himself and the paper shows there was resistance to the policies from lower ranks within the party. there are 44 pages of materials documenting internal investigations and punishment of local officials who did not carry out the detention with
sufficient zeal. it is breathtakingtaking and illuminating to see the level of fear not just in the uyghur population but also officials who have to care out the atrocities. the second if party insider took a tremendous risk in leaking the documents and the whistle-blower told thetimetime they hope that xi jinping would not escape culpability. two days ago new reporting document revealed an intense investigation and tightening of information since the leak. one family was taken away. just days of "the new york times" piece was published. he said that family had no connection to the locks. the third, the leak is hard evidence of the chinese government's intentions. uyghurs have been telling the world for more than two years but the stories were met witness
skepticism. now we have proof of china's intend on simmie punishment and in -- train nation and the paper -- indoctrination, he papers prove the assault on the population is an explicit order. the party says round up everwho should be rounded up. this is a plan for wholesale and mass crimes. the papers document a part ten or dehumanization, well-known plea curser for crimes against humanity and genocide. xi jinping defies all normals, everyday expression of muse himmity as extremism which he likens to a contagion. they're saying the us uyghur population has a disease which requires intervention. fourth, the chinese government midstly tried to hide what it
was doing and the government knew that the uyghurs would be howeverred and desperate too find miss organize detained relatives. so the government prepared a script and made sure that students now that missing family members would face even worser to tour and misery if they were to complain. the government tried to hide what is was doing from the world because they knew the world about me however -- howeverred to fine out. as early as may 2014 xi jinping told officials toking know criticism and said, don't be afraid if hostile forces complain. or if hostilers toes malign the image of sin ongoing. finally the documents used the word mening concentration. showing that the communist party intends to detain individuals for purpose of collective
punishment, transformation because of their race,th is inity, religious practices and political modifies. this makes it rome use toe use the term concentration camps. what that he international responsible been? sadly not much. the main reason is that china has been successful in buying silence through diplomatic pressure. economic incentives incentives e neglects, governments, businesses and international organizations fear the consequences of annoying the communist party. last week, turkish foreign minister told the par him his government won't stay silent on the uyghur issue. the united kingdom, ue, australia spoke out requesting unfettered access to camps and that's it. no country has announces sanctions or was re-called an ambassador, has cancel odd a trip or cabled a resolution at
the u.n. in this horribly inadequate response the united states has been the most vocal country. many officials fro to vice president to the director of national intend generals to the u.n. ambassador have expressed concerns or condemnation. secretary pompeo has made 20 public statements, including comments to the press, about the uyghur crisis in the last five months. ... on december 3 the house of representatives passed the human rights bill by a vote of 101. members cited documents and evidence of persecution on a scale not seen since the
holocaust said congressman christmas of new jersey. even though the bill has a decent chance of becoming law because ofbipartisan support, it has also strong support in the senate . it passed a slightly different bill by unanimous consent in december. in conclusion i'd like to point that only gives us and evidence that should be on the desk ofpolicymakers , legislators and prosecutors for collective and individual responses to the crisis. these documents should compel skeptics, and apologists to get on the right side of history. this is not only about the uyghur but the nature of the communist party in china . it is about who we are as a free people and the civilization. nobody can say we did not know . what more will it take for companies and governments to end business as usual in china? will it take mass killings
for the world to take decisive action when it's too late ? your response will be addressed with a few words of concern as in the past. this is a genocidal intent in black and white on our watch. thank you. [applause] >> adrian, while i turn to answer these questions i know you've done some recent analysis about the actual infrastructure behind the camps, how many camps are we talking about ? in your assessment? >> the classified document about the management of the camps and the establishment of a administrative infrastructure and vocational training center management in every county administrative unit regardless whether uyghur minority or majority. and based on other evidence,
i would put my first estimate from 2018 for which we now have more data points that on average at least every township in ginseng has some extra internal stability. the education or occasional education centers and in some cases we have evidence that townships have at least both of them and i would add the regular detentions and he centers and institutions of extrajudicial internment giving us a rough count of 30,000 . and that does not include include prisoners because those are part of the formal criminal system. these are only institutions of extrajudicial internment where people are put for formal court proceedings and
terms of appeal a question i think for bethany. what you think about the similarity of the crackdown against falun gong and uyghur? have they been perfecting their tactics of persecution against minorities? >> i think the us and other governments, not just governments but analysts and was have made a mistake in mostly ignoring what happened in the past 20 years to the falun gong and also to those into that andoutside to that . what you saw were from early indications and early patterns and practices that the chinese communist party use to suppress entire people or religious groups and by ignoring that, we ignored valuable information about
the workings and thinking of the communist party and we also essentially gave them a green light saying oh, we don't care about much that happens to small groups or minoritygroups . and there are some similarities to what happened to the falun gong, but what you did not see with falun gong in china where the mass construction of camps in this way. there are some differences. >> thank you. question for perhaps all of you because i know all of you have experienced this, any advice for countering pro-regime trolls on social media who seek to deny the facts about the internment camps ? or at least cloud the issue? >> i was just tweeting about that yesterday. i have seen a remarkable uptick in the number of
accounts of, twitter account who now every time i post about it all the time, the responses are by these different twitter account that are denying that they exist or doing what about his with the united states or things like that area i don't think that can be dealt with on an individual level. what needs to happen is twitter and facebook needs to continually view what they announced a number of months ago which is to track and shutdown these accounts and to be public about it and to make announcements every time they do that. it's really the only effective way to counter this kind of obvious disinformation campaign. >> i think twitter is already having some success. i noticed myself, maybe it's different but they will get on to you late but they latched onto me, stopping interestingly with the parents child's separation in july. i think that hit a particular nerve. and i think twitter has been successful in eliminating.
i get every week, every week i lose about 60 or more followers, of course, i gained many more and at least two thirds of them are temporarily, actually done by twitter and i think they're very easy to discern.they have a limited number of followers, they don't use real ids. often copy and paste the same thing. if you search for tianjin on twitter, you spot them in no time and i think twitter and others are getting much better at targeting these automated scripts which shouldn't be thatdifficult . >> two additional thoughts, one is being mindful about the chinese governments effective disinformation campaign. when you go onto facebook or twitter, anytime when somebody publishes something you unleash what about and
counterclaims. even last friday when this soccer player that i referenced in my speech tweeted out a very powerful message, he was trashed left and right over the place. he has 25 million followers so that's one thing to be mindful of and tech companies are responsible and should find a way to filter out messages. helping chinese to disseminate this different disinformation. >> fort nori, how do you evaluate president trumps policy towards ccp on human rights issues? and add-on question is the uyghur human rights bill, what are your hopes and concerns about that and its success ? >> i get this question quite often.
i've learned to pay attention to what the trump administration does and what president trump says in public . the records are clear as i pointed out, secretary of state on the uyghur issue in public made his speeches and media interviews at least 20 times in the last five months. everyone from the stadium leadership level including sam brownback that we saw today, those powerful messages have been speaking up at unprecedented levels so i don't focus too much about president trump and what he does in that capacity. on the uyghur bill, the united states congress has been supportive in the last 2 years. specifically under the leadership of senator rubio and representative christopher smith. the bill that has been considered currently has a good chance because as you look at the record sponsorship and the enthusiasm, the genuine interest to get this bill passed, it's just a matter of
time.i think the u.s. congress should have more than one bill. there should be other bills covering the other issues including the forced labor so if you want to help the uyghur bill passed, call the senate majority leader mitch mcconnell, minority leader chuck schumer to ask them to put this bill on committee. >> i had mentioned what i believed to be the political poison on the war on terrorism after 9/11 in the beginning but my question for all of you or this question for all of you is why is the world not recognizing this as a genocide, also why is the world ignoring the fact that repression is a result of china's occupation of each turkestan and its systemic colonization of that region? adrian? >> the problem is what china
is doing in tianjin is sophisticated. not a lot of leadership although there's some for sure, a lot morethan should . but the world has yet to truly and fully define genocide in a form of extinction not just of physical life but also of identities. there are some terminologies such as genocide, etc. other terms like ethnic cleansing that are quite difficult to use because they can refer to huge population, to mass killing or to other things, to a whole range of inconsistent things and i think it's high time, it's really the job of institutions such as the united nations and others to take this seriously and to come up with clear definitions and terms and lists and then to apply them,
to match them and to also follow-up, to keep track with what's going on in the world. if there's new forms of atrocities that are new mass attacks onidentity and humanity , the multilateral community and these institutions have to keep on top of this and that's the bureaucracy that trailed behind by 10 to 20 years. >> i think it has also something to do with people not knowing actually what is happening to the uyghur in a general sense,the general public and there's a lack of leadership . in those capitals to take up the cost. at the height of nazi germany they were holding about 700,000 people so compared to that number, to what is happening to the uyghur it is bone chilling and yet it has not driven any necessary attention.
legal scholars should look at the actual definition and the thoughts, the thinking and practice of the chinese government and drawing that conclusion . >> so we're looking for some leader to take up this cause and as they pointed out, what we have is evidence . a method is clear, but thought process isclear . formulation of these policies , implementation is pretty clear. i think this is a serious crime that has been unsubstantiated with the recent leaks that provided hard evidence area. >> i'd like to add a couple points about that that highlight the two different i would say systemic causes or the lack of government reaction to chinese campaign of genocide.first is that china itself has massive
economic might and the chinese communist party has spent the last 15 years and the last 10 years waging explicit campaigns to turn that economic power into political power and into geopolitical power . the most obvious manifestation of it is jinping's policy of the belton road which they present as an economic initiative but is more importantly a heavily geopolitical initiative to make many governments around the world economically dependent on china and to turn that leverage into political leverage. that has been, china has leveraged that in this specific case, the question has frequently been asked why are the governments of muslim majority countries not speaking out about this? it's not because they hate their own people. it's because those countries in particular are particularly dependent on china for trade, loans, etc. so this is i would say perhaps the most important difference between this
particular campaign of cultural genocide and say, me on mars in which they actually did kill 24,000 people and hundreds of thousands were forced to leave their homes. it was easy for many governments to condemn that because no one looks to me on mark as a political model and no one is economically dependent on it so at their at that level. another thing has not very much to do with china itself. it has much more to do with islamic terrorism. i believe that uyghurs are in a way a victim of islamic terrorism because what islamic extremist groups who i considered to be extraordinarily elfish in addition to being violent, what they have done in part what they have done is to cast aspersions over the entire islamic religion which iswrong , which is entirely wrong and if you look at what
jinping said in his speeches, he in his mind use this as counterterrorism. that is deeply wrong because that is not a problem in uyghur society particularly, that's not what this is that is what he has in his private speeches presented it as. so what i'm saying is that one reason that many chinese people hold deeply islamic full the sentiments towards uyghurs and one reason many countries in the world and just generally populations in the world have been less inclined to leap to the defense of muslims is because of the deeply harmful things that islamic extremists in the world have done area. >> nora, this is a good question for you as a lawyer from our audience. a certain percentage of people in the camps have already been sentenced with
heavy imprisonment like my nephew and my brother-in-law. now my brother is facing a courttrial , therefore should the us government or for that matter other international legal entities highlight this issue or not and if so, what are the options? >> i'd like to note it's an important question. the chinese government has been even violating its own counterterrorism law. and two, the un should look into this because i get this kind of question quite regularly. sadly the un general secretary has not even publicly spoken out. even the un charter specifically mandates but there's no human rights so i don't believe the chinese government will provide any mechanism or channels to detain uyghurs to have legal representation as noted that the us panel in 2018, the
chinese have created no rights zone, no access to lawyers, courts or even family members. so it is something that the policymakers around the world , particularly the un should look at addressing. i don't think there's anything that can be done in china. >> there is no law rises above the power of party. okay. would any of you like to have some final concluding thoughts ? >> i think it's clearly is time to move focus, not the effort but the focus away from questions about evidence which we now have abundantly. what exactly is going on . and to really truck shine the
spotlight on the international community . on national governments including this one here on nations be nato butespecially the united nations . be it leaks within the islamic world. and this is not something i'm an expert on or can advise on but i think it's deeply frustrating to see the extent to which what's going on on tianjin is testing the true conscience of the world. as deeply frustrating to see the choices that these leaders have been making in often times not making certain choices. and i think this is something that should trouble us deeply. and anybody who speaks for claims to care about human rights should pause and think what is going on in the global community. anybody asking for more evidence has no further
excuse at this point in time and i think that should be squarely pointed out. >> it is not only disappointing but disheartening that some muslim countries had been on the side of thechinese government . where their religion has been likened to mental illness and there's evidence now that they have been wholesale attack on uyghur islam and 2, this needs to be understood that the united states government did not create this problem. the chinese have been very effective at creating this false division, camp against camp situation as you've noticed in the joint letters published in july. those fiftysomething countries need to understand this is not helping the uyghurs.
it's in the interest of their religious beliefs . it's a matter of conscience so i call on those countries to get on the right side of history. >> with that, thank you particularly to our panelists, thank you all for being here . we will do more of this and i want to have more of you back and thank you to all of you again and also to c-span for joining us today. we look forward to continuing the conversation. thank you. [applause] >> next on cspan2, government officials and business leaders look atfuture environmental innovations in the us . after that, marks from assistant attorney general
don demers on national security issues. later, testimony from justice department inspector general michael horwitz about his report on the russia investigation of the 2016 presidential campaign. >> this holiday week book tv is on c-span every day with primetime features each night. tonight pulitzer prize-winning investigative journalist ronan farrow details efforts made to stifle his reporting. pulitzer prize winning columnist george will offers his thoughts on conservatism and investigative journalist jodi kantor and megan to we discussed the me to movement and their investigation of sexual harassment allegations against harvey weinstein area watch tonight at eight eastern on cspan2 and enjoy book tv this week and every weekend on cspan2.
>> this weekend book tv features three new nonfiction books. saturday at 6 pm eastern , doug we talked about his latest book inside trumps white house. >> think about that for a minute. the russians have run him for president and elected him against all odds.he's a russian spy. think about that for a minute to read that's like landing a man on the moon, that's like the assassination of julius caesar, like christopher columbus . as one of the greatest events of world history if we were able to actually achieve that . >> and that it: 20 and their latest book the ethical algorithm, computer and information science professors michael kearns and erin roth discussed algorithm design. >> philosophers have been thinking about fairness from time in memorial. lots of people thought about things like privacy and the like. they've never had to think about these things in such a precise way that you could
actually write them into a computer program or into an algorithm. >> sunday at 9 pm eastern on afterwards, thomas chatterton williams with his latest book self-portrait in black and white. >> i realized the black experience was socially and economically more diverse than i ever known in my corner of new jersey and grow jazz and reading all these other writers more seriously and looking at the art, i began to wonder why my friends and i had such a arrow cross-section of this rich cultural tradition and why i thought that my father was somehow outside of this cultural tradition when in many ways he was just exemplifying it. >> watch this weekend and every weekend on cspan2. >> next a discussion about the future economic environment in the united states . posted by the us council on competitiveness. afterwards, energy secretary
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