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tv   Nina Jankowics How to Lose the Information War  CSPAN  August 15, 2020 4:25pm-5:31pm EDT

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>> next on book tv nina jankowics looks at the disinformation campaign launched by russia against central and eastern european countries and harvard university professor cornell west leads discussion on black lives matter movement. later several authors discuss their books on china and u.s. china relations during program hosted by liberty university, for more information visit or check your program guide. >> good afternoon, i'm jane, president and ceo of center and like me you're probably suffering from zoom fatigue, however, tune in here this is a very important event and i'm excited. this is one of the zooms i'm really looking forward to because we are celebrating, hear this, a new book and an important book by our very own nina jankowics
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who has done stiller work at the disinformation tell all, coolers title ever and before that she was scholar with institute on russia and ukraine and how to lose the information war, russia fake news and the future of congress is conflict -- is an amazing title and essential reading for everyone on this call and zoom and all your friends. we remember russia's successful campaign to sow distrust and confusion ahead of the presidential election but in order to win the information as nina would say we need to understand what disinformation is. i've heard around this topic before and what it is not. the information is use of false or misleading information with malign intent. that's different from misinformation which can be harmful but lacks
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malign intent. it also has broader goals and propaganda which involves promotion of a nation's view. nona writes, unlike soviet propaganda which sought to promote specific communist centric world view, the kremlin today divides populations around the world with one goal in mind. the destruction of western democracy as we know it, end quote. our democracy, no surprise to anyone on the zoom continues to face tremendous threats from disinformation. this year we face not only another election but also a pandemic which nina will tell us is spread of pandemic of covid-19 and we have done programming on it and while she was writing the book, nina like the rest of us had no clue coronavirus was working around the corner but she's done an excellent job keeping up
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with changes as misinformation affects more of the media landscape. i would like to say that nina's job is to spread information in a world of disinformation. and in her book she blends engaging journalistic writing style with rigorous look at how misinformation spreads and in ukraine she received grant to advice ukrainian government on strategic communications. most importantly, she does what the wilson center does best, which is to offer clear-headed policy recommendations for the united states and other governments facing this challenge. joining nina on today's panel are matt, director of our institute out as well as asha, former fbi intelligence agent who is now senior lecture institute. please know if you have
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questions to the panel you can e-mail them at kenon to or mention us on twitter at the wilson center. to kick off the discussion now, it's my delight to -- to recognize matt and nina and graba, you really are a treasure and to write a book in addition to all the other good work that you do for us is just magical. very exciting. over to you, matt. >> thank you so much, i will actually start things off and i will begin by thanking you and everyone at the wilson center so much for the process over the 3 years, this process was a 3-year long process from conception when living in ukraine to today in my office and i wouldn't have been able to do it with kennon institute and particular matt saw the
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worst of the project when it was in infancy and supported it and gave me room and space to develop it and, of course, meg and the program shepherd it to the end. i'm so graceful for your support and i'm thrilled to be with you here today. i thought i would read a little bit from the conclusion of the book which i wrote around this time last year, the end of july early august when i was trying to imagine what topic future scenario would look like for the united states if we did not begin to push back against disinformation, not just russian disinformation but the domestic variety as well which has begun to infect our discourse at really alarming rate recently. .. ..
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social media manipulation campaign that after election day came and went easily won a second term. a ukrainian journalist uncovered the manipulation story was fabricated. it originated from a troll account based in russia heard were another troll factory had been offering quietly for years. the story allege the leadership of the democratic national committee itself had been using russian style social media tactics with a well-timed tweet from an authentic account to rudy giuliani the rumor got its way with a single retreat the former new york mayor turn the entire twitter rapid. then across party lines it was no matter that the story was complete hearsay. no one ever produced a shred
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of concrete evidence about the whole affair. but after the dnc had been hacked the e-mail plastered across the internet during the 2016 election. what trump is members money under more than portly unofficial swing voters. it was a scandal on the vicious unending circle the news made it reported on the allegations despite evidence braids what boded, candidates and parties were discussing but how could they leave it untouched? known the integrity of the american electoral policy ballooned on election day technical difficulties with precincts with electronic voting was perceived as potential vote jim vote packing. when that there is seem plausible. low turnout despite four years of organizing against trump youth turnout was its lowest ever. the correct systems participated. trumps ever loyal turned out
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in droves. he won election on the interior ration of the american ecosystem canoed. they slashed funding for the public broadcasting in u.s. radio. and tutu asked pynchon for this is the ideal outcome for moscow american democracy once a shining hitting on the sill is weak and groveling in 2028. with the dissent and protest with the u.s. was founded are increasingly foreign concept. corruption once kept in check by active media and engaged electric, which is the highest levels of government. consumed by problems at home, the u.s. is less engaged abroad goes to the failings of our democratic system had a broader range of authoritarian inside and outside its borders see may seem far-fetched by the united states along with some of the countries profiled in my book and european
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democracies were all on her way to a fact free version of democracy like in which the tenants of the democratic process participation and protest are under attack. might book how to lose the information war lays out how to avert this scenario. and how to rebuild our discours discourse. this polio, czech republic and ukraine i introduce readers to the people who fought this information some success with some less so and the enabler prayed the most important one is that people need to be at the heart of the response to this information. tech platforms, governments, journalist many can fact check their way out of the crisis of truth and trust that we face. but if we educate our citizens and repair the tracks in our democracies to eliminate troll farms in the first place they might have a shot at averting
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arid if they don't i feel our efforts will be another cautionary tale in another example of how to lose information war britain now going to turn it over. select thank you nina, thank you jane for joining us. nina said exactly right. we at the institute are lucky to find nina. but nina's work supporting the mission at a really difficult time for talking and thinking seriously about russia, ukraine, former soviet renee and roentgen region issues certainly anything that is with election interference. you all know very well, i can't imagine anyone on the call you can't open your mouth to have a conversation what's happening in that part of the world without really becoming basically about american politics. anita comes along with the
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fallacy, clear commitment to the idea you can work on this topic and not have it just before american policies or other kind of political agenda. i just want to offer a few further thoughts about why this book is still worthwhile to pick up and read. i have reddit and really enjoyed it. i benefited from it. why the canids can support nina and her work. first is that there is something metaphorically perfect about the fact that nina began as a fellow it seemed like ancient history back in 2017 and has ended up unassigned technology innovation program as a disinformation fellow. sounds like.
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[inaudible] to cool the opportunity that didn't exist. it's actually the fact that when you start to look at the dysfunctional dangerous dynamics and russia's conflict with the west, this information be only one of them. you find yourself relatively quickly we get to the essence you find yourself in a place is not so much about russia or u.s. russia relations. most always about some this bigger, something global in nature something fundamentally human, something about who we are, how we define ourselves. but it's very fitting that nina's research is felt that pathways well. i'll come to this in just a moment. they are just exactly on point in that respect. as opposed to what we see here in washington. i entire regional word about the case study.
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i read a lot of books about the former soviet space. a lot of them are organized into countries. they just kind of treat each of these cases kind of interchangeable. they will apply the same kind of tired mythology. the individual players and what you might call the same high task roles. who's the champion of democracy in this country for the agents in this country? nina doesn't do that. jane use the term almost sure the list to narrated detailing in his own experience give you a very look at what it's like to be engaged in a public debate where this features prominently in countries that are by and large in the region
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of course the czech republic nonsense but in communism, quite a bit of russian influence furthers a russian element is an element much bigger. there's an element that is very specific to the region, the country come the time and place. all that is of great value. they open come to this in our discussion. this is something that we as americans need to be thinking very hard about. i'll find one of most rigid two-party systems in the world for the incentives if you are coming from the outside at the french heaven forbid heaven for bid is not from the mainstream. if someone apparently helping you, it's someone is stirring up dispute, discussion, debate ks it brings more attention to your cause it's very hard in that sort of case of
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monolithic machine to decline that helper distance yourself from it. i think that's absently vital that anna raises in the book. as we watch really dangerous fringe elements needing traction through this in her case studies but how do we address the united states in the context was a whois acacia out of the gate is not needed in our debate. finally went to add nina's own concluding words an excerpt about people it's about education as about democracy and resiliency. to kind of complete the thought that it opened earlier. one of the most exhaustively things i've written about in ineffectiveness is that of punishing bad guys. we have been in search for a quarter-century or more of
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tools to work with her that bad guy is vitamin potent, kim jong-un, al qaeda, we go back and forth between overuse of sanctions, overuse of drones, diplomatic finger wagging. with honestly refreshing what i may say so about what nina has written. as outlooks inward. it is self-critical about the way we are not resilient in the face of challenges that are going to be there for those of vladimir putin out there behind us or there isn't. i find that very refreshing. it is an unfortunate description of the fortunate reality but it is very refreshing. i think organ have a bit of a conversation than questions from our audience out there so pleas please.
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>> host: thank you matt. i wanted to just pick up where you left off in terms of why this book is really important to americans understanding of this problem. which i think is star made for three main reasons i would say. in this book actually addresses all three of those. the first is that as nina points out in her book, this is not americans first rodeo disinformation coming from russia. this is kgb ml i've had hearings about this in 1982, we've looked at this. but largely with the fall of the soviet union, we thought it was all over. and i think what nina's does is it goes through starting soon after putting comes to
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power and how methodically the kgb tactics and methods have been practiced, refined, inc., new technologies. and basically as we sit by they have been practicing and they have been finding ways to make it more and more effective as it has crept closer and closer to the united states. literally caught us unaware. because we stopped seeing russia as a serious threat. in 2008 think obama or 2012 obama made fun of romney for saying that russia was a threat. i think what nina chose also with this kind of our blinders being on and with what she mentioned about russia not being constrained by ideology
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is that it actually gives russia much more flexibility in terms of putting its tentacles into american society which is something that is very constraining for it during the cold war. we had a natural prophylactic because we were in an ideological struggle. they were really only fringe elements that could be receptive to communist efforts. were now we've seen they've made inroads into the right and left. but so i think it's this global iteration. the practicing of all these methods. we can see in each of these case studies elements that have shown up in the united states. in each of these countries there some aspect of it that's manifested here. it's an important lesson for us. the second thing this kind of goes along with why we had our blinders on is that americans outputted here. i went to the fbi in 2002.
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right after 911. it is been all terrorism all the time. we just -- we don't think of a threat if it doesn't involve blowing things up and dead bodies someone trying to light issue on fire on an airplane. that's when you start taking drastic measures. this i think for americans were very naïve about this, it's hard for americans to get their mind around. and i think this is also just part about the american psyche. because we have not been practiced upon like these case studies are we develop war and peace no threat information
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warfare these case studies show why it's dangerous why it's a threat is not an explosion or something like that. and i think related to that, the third thing i think americans are very naïve about the idea of information as a weapon. this i think is partially a good thing and it is because our first amendment, our constitution offers so much robust for disagreement are freedom of the press. until we have been conditioned as americans to think of speech and information as a net positive. in the way the marketplace of ideas the way you contact bad
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speech with good speech. and we haven't fully understood how the marketplace of ideas doesn't necessarily translate into the digital space. and this whole idea of information as a weapon is really something we are just getting your mind around. i think we've done a fantastic job of explaining why this is dangerous and why this can translate. about how information can actually translate into behavior where people actually can become puppets and act out on the beliefs they are consuming. i think it is a very, very important lesson for an american audience understand. i think you kind of hit all of these blind spots, these places of ignorance that audiences have come to this
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issue. i hope we touch on all of these. because it can be hard to get your mind around. yeah i can check my sources but what's the big deal of wisest really something we should address? so thank you for that and learned a lot from your book. i am not a person who is affiliated with the media, our media does not do a good job also of focusing on what's happening abroad. we are incredibly ignorant of what's happening abroad. great thank you. i think the goal if we stand for the next 15 minutes or so as to give people a bit of a teaser base and some important takeaways of the book. some of the single most important to start with us
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from all these case studies in the history that was referred to as not being new, what is it that we can learn that we should have known as early as 2016 but really we should know in 2020. and maybe 2028. civic there are three things that really stand out among these case studies. they weren't necessarily things i knew i was going to encounter when it's out there during the interviews for the reporting period it's a homegrown element to all of the operations that i detail. so americans talk about fake news is stuff that is purely cut and dry fake. i had a conversation by editor because i didn't love that fakeness wasn't it. the terminology is wrong. the best disinformation is grounded in real feelings in the most successful tvs homegrown actors in order to
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get them out there. so in 2007 russia was able to manipulate the russian ethnic population in order to see the unrest to carry out cyber attacks to undermine this new trans atlantic company to let russia know this would actually become her stunning is a demand of cyberspace. that was conflict at its head. and all the other case studies in poland is in the 2010 plane crash is an anti- muslim sentiment and order to have discord and in the netherlands in 2016 when the netherlands voting on a referendum for ukraine's association agreement, using the dutch skepticism against ukraine to
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undermine unity but undermine support in the community throughout pre-existing and brought forth by homegrown actors. and we touched upon the example of the first chapter of the book that was published in the excerpts by political magazine this past weekend. so anyone who wants to get a peace of it can look that up. let's about a flash mob that was a musical, show to in front of the white house in 2017 and a less leading group had been supported by russian actors to go out into the flash mob get a large amount of attendees for facebook advertising. the homegrown actors a huge part of it. but all of these countries and have a somewhat successful response i noted in the excerpts i read just now they all address people participation in this equation. they addressed education, they address journalism and the
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media as a public good. and they are investing in the long-term generational solution sprayed helps people navigate the information environment that they are in. the information ecosystem that is now rapidly degrading. rather than just trying to eliminate fake accounts and bad actors online. in the third theme i think is to get disinformation from abroad where using it ourselves british elvis playing out in georgia last summer i was there during the protest that broke out after a russian parliamentarian. in georgian parliament during an orthodox conference they were having their, the georgia people were not having that. and yet the ruling party there was using the information to threat a different narrative about what happened. certainly happening in poland leading up to their election this weekend. it's happening here in the
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ignited states as well. our national security doctrine the people i know across the federal government had many folks on both sides of the island capitol hill really believed the issues are a threat get all of that good work is undermined by things that are happening unfortunately in the executive branch and narratives that are spread from the white house at times. that is very disturbing to me, you cannot fight the information coming abroad not come from not only russia but china and iran and venezuela's were creating it used to go on our own people. that is the biggest warning for me as we head into this cycle. civic let's stop for a moment just for minute on your point there first i am curious can you give a broader across the where the united states is maybe successful? the future sounds bleak as are any errors were doing a good job as a matter policy? and then on the other side of the equation, it may very well
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be true but what about the areas with the phenomenon of government is the problem that can't be just about this current local moment that you sit around for 30 years, people feel there is an elite people who dress their agenda and national security terms here in washington try to control everything and therefore the opposite of what they say has a good chance of being true with a conspiracy curious crowd if you will. want to put a few those out there invite you to both see where we might be successful were being unsuccessful maybe we shouldn't have a roller can't have a role. >> i think there is a sense
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that the government should be solving this problem. and ironically i think the government is really very ill place to solve the problem. even if there were political will and i was in the fbi worked was called perception management cases. these were foreign intelligence operations that are trying to engage in propaganda information there really difficult because there is no punishment that you can really put you can't censor them, you might threaten them with agent registration act. but what countries like russia take advantage of is our societ society. and our free press. i think compounding that problem is just a lack of study among members of congress. this is like their older, and
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they using these technologies they don't fully understand the model so they are very -- they're not going to been a great place to regulate them can't keep up the pace of technological pace that could become obsolete. as an intelligence operation weight you neutralized is through exposure if you're being duped on believing the fellow progressives that are putting it together if you know the sources of it seems to have the same power i think this book, things like the special counsel indictment, the russian nationals and the companies that were engaged in the social media influence,
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the exposure is very important because that breaks down really the entire power of the operation. that is what i would say. but i think you addressed this in your conclusion, nina, we are -- and were expecting the government to save us. and it is not going to happen. the government kidding gauge in strong deterrent tactics as a foreign-policy response. i get student. but as far as stopping this disinformation that isn't going to happen. this is about equipping the populace i think you mentioned the really important thing that i hope we get to which is also 30s to be a rebuilding of social trust among americans that will then also act as a prophylactic part i think that will be a very difficult country to infiltrate with. it's a very strong country
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with a lot of among its citizens for that's what i would say, nina sure you have more to add. >> that's a great jumping out point for me. i'll get to some of the investments i think we should be making and kind of this citizens oriental spaces like colic. the price jumped place i think is doing a good job and that exposure is that they were talking about is the department of homeland security is doing a great job. i think they had a really interesting campaign about cause and determination work related intent related to pineapple and pizzas it tries to kind of pick people against each other based on whether or not they like pineapple on their pizza which is a silly example but your people in how that discord is online. it's not necessarily about changing votes is about distracting us in green the discord. i hope they got more funding
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but to protect the infrastructure other parts of the government i think are suffering from but sideload having this date to permit fantastic people there predrilled experts. they are focused on programming abroad. that's great but were not returning in her own society we are just projecting outward. on that is something not invested enough in yet. there several bills stuck in congress unfortunately because they have been solidified not only with transparency in social media, such as the honest as act but education and awareness building. there is an education bill that stuck in committee right now as well. and so i hope to see more investments in that area. of course it is a little bit difficult with the way her federal education system, you
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can't tell states what to do what you can get them grants, right? to develop the curriculum together with experts, to implement not only through our schools but the voting age population as well for things like libraries as well as civil society organizations so that is something i really love to see them with the public media one of the reasons i decided to read the excerpt today is not just a pat myself on the back and say look how precious i was. [laughter] but because today we had news that the u.s. agency for global media which oversees radio for europe is cracking down even more unkind of the freedom the journalists there were enjoying. and they were journalists from those agencies must get their visas renewed at the end which i think is the real shame. these are two vectors within our region, matt, i think they have a huge positive impact
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really good brand association in our region. and the fact that we were government's trying to dismantle them at this moment something i feel really, really strongly i caution anyone who might be listening as to limit that policy to reverse that. i think jewels in the crown there i know matt and i have both had programs recently. we note that reaches people there and it's worth it. >> host: i wanted to ask nina about her source point. about russia exploiting. [inaudible] in these countries. one of the things that struck me when i was reading your book is how in the weeds
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russia is within knowing its enemy. and understand that poland is different. really knows what to tweak them in the u.s. i just wanted wondering -- i was especially struck by your case study of poland. after the plane crash he mentioned one of the things russia did was a very simple move through so effective was that they wouldn't provide the records from the plane. or anything. and i saw this as control they fostered conspiracy theory. because you withhold that information which itself to take on. and so you don't meds the gem
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engine reflexive control directly but it is something that they do and they know exactly how their enemy will respond to the smallest action. i am just wondering -- if you could just comment on that generally. they're very methodical in that way and also how do we protect against that? i don't know how -- it's almost like you know kind of -- we are complicit in the manipulation. because we advertise what will push our buttons i guess. matt go ahead. >> thank you for bringing that up. they say three years running the world leading think tank for regional studies on the things it's always characterized by aggression is
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a paid really close attention to what's going on i know you don't work on this every day but do you really think maybe they could name one russian fireproof that's financially got. that's unilateral disarmament. sorry. had to jump in. [inaudible] smacked i'm glad you did at his point invites to pray think regional studies are something we should absolutely be investing more end. the fact that i ended up at the institute my first appointment in the wilson center was not a coincidence for it i did to area to study degrees before that. i think that the knowledge of something they invest in. in the united states as well. there's a political spectrum
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and they get to some very weird, wonky in our society. how do we protect against it? we need more expertise there so investment and all of these regional studies areas i think is extraordinarily important. but then again, it's also about building a broader knowledge base. it's responsible coverage in the media watch i'm not sure we have had over the past four years. i really cringe every time i see the cathedral as the kremlin imagery about russia or relics and that sort of thing. and things that project russia as our foes. with the cooperate and get through this i hope one day that will happen. right now that's not obviously possible. we need broader understanding. not a breccia but all of our adversaries to understand how they're going to react to
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things that they are doing this to us. that would be my answer there. we wanted to play a larger version of wax control. with countries that are not sustainable over the long term. i think holding countries to their agreements internationally extraordinarily important. we also need to step it's going to make us resilient in the long term and thus of the book tries to get to. smacked i would just add in their it's also a consequence of our military superiority. understanding your enemy at a cultural level is the poor man's warfare. right? where if push comes to shove oldest bomb. that's kind of where we push it. it really puts us in the imbalanced situation. it just makes us an easier
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adversary because we are approaching the issue completely differently. we just don't get our minds around it at all. i'm sorry that go ahead. see what i want to put in some that questions were getting from the audience but echo what you both said there is an increasingly exceptional point we are shocked, shocked about what's been done with this. because b been complacent for so long we've been too comfortable in we have predominant power in the world can we tell people how is going to be and they ask how high should i jump, right? the other reality is that the
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that's with the entire conversation is about. this is a hybrid what everyone called. jane if you are still with us i like to give you the first audience question. we have lots more about 18 minutes ago. are you with this? unmute. their ego. i've been trying to get an idea how i got out. never mind. technology everybody nina just got to tell you again have how proud we are of you in the contribution you make in the passion you have for the scholarship for improving the world. it's all stuff that i resonate with and just love that the hall conversation could not be better i am channeling a famous american retired general who always asked how does this end?
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the war does it ever end? we teach artificial intelligence among other things. i don't think ai ever ends pray think we find a way to ride the tiger and all about. is that with this is to? is it not ever going to be defeated? and i said resilient as a huge part of the strategy i get that. is just always going to be with us? >> guest: i think when you did historic event when you go back to ancient greece yellow journalism here in the united states for similar examples, what's changed about today is a tools, tactics and speed of which information spreads birds a part of this is not only building resilience but we have to get the regulatory framework in place so that we
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can respond more effectively. in february we were lucky enough to have senator warren here addressing us, that here in my room at the wilson's are in a past life. when we were discussing how to bring about positive democratic base social media regulation. it's an area in which the united states is advocating its leadership in right now. unfortunately not for own citizens but for the governments that have a lot less visibility with the social media platform that are dealing with genocide starting on their platforms like in burma are dealing with an onslaught from adversaries like ukraine. i think the regulation point will allow system the flow. i don't think it's ever going to really fully change. they will also have with politicians will start holding themselves to a higher standard. i know matt was really interested in discussing this
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question about how to incentivize the fact that you help politicians to do this very sort of manipulation of the information we have to have regulation about campaign-finance come about online transparency for political ads et cetera. they need to be in place and we haven't had that done last three to half or four years it makes us more vulnerable. most manipulation from within. subpoena i wish it were as easy as knowing with information and passing jay noses very well. it's because both sides were arguably all sides in a complex it's a potential advantage when the great money or whatever it is when you
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work for their advantage. asking people to be the bigger person to the winner takes all context is a fools errand. on one point here you saw differences about very small and relatively tightknit societies, or georgia versus the united states. we are never going to have a historian type like singapore on petty vandalism. but read the book we can take a few questions here not you to comment as well. the couple grouped around the policy prescriptions related to education. i'm going to quickly read them
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we can elaborate with this information what kind of education and so on. who isn't the region he asked for comments on ideas for digital and media literacy to combat this information again to what they have done. talk a little bit more about not just education and bringing up ukraine as an example for having a short period of time. the organization from what i saw from my attendees i always bring up their learn to discern which trained a bunch of effort library into then went out to train people and
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all of ukraine's region. they have done a really interesting study of follow-on study about how the skills were attained over. of year end a half i think. they're really positive results. what i love about this program is it's not politicized. but teaches people to recognize emotional about the media environment about hate speech this is the program how do we deliver that? i think there is room for the social media platform to be doing more as well. these are billion-dollar corporations with ubiquitous access to people's lives. and the fact that they think somehow clicking an ad in the wall street journal the "new york times" is an often terms of by attempt to reach out to their users and educate them
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one idea i've been bringing up a lot as i hope someone takes an honor from something like this is a fake news or disinformation museum. rather than just taking down the bad content, i would love for people to get notification that they have interacted with context has been removed here's white's been removed. and then you can interact within the ecosystem existed. understanding how many engagements it's got, understanding what the network was, how it connects. so often there's a big take on yesterday, they just give us snippets. emily cut their narrative of how it works. their settlement people there don't understand how this information works. those who are making it a friendly experience could be a way to do that one out at some
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specific education i think one of the vulnerabilities that russia exploits is increasingly lost sight of a common civic values. i we don't like dictators, those kind of things. no more pain. some ways hamilton need that on a larger scale. i only nine states in the country have a full year of education. until we are increasingly getting a population that can fall prey to things like there must be a deep state because
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they don't fully understand how the government works. i echo your idea on social media platforms, being a vehicle. back at work for digital literacy. that could be regulated. where there is some required content that this fact forms have to convey or make sure the uses interface whether they're going to teach them the skills because i think, we haven't gotten this is a whole other topic. i think the economic model of these media platforms are built on, are not incentivized most extreme content because that creates more click for more money. you have to find a way to get them out. i think basically the equivalent of tobacco. they are today's version of tobacco. they're not really good for
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anybody they're not with that of the public. and that's where should commit i think. >> speaking of popular culture of commonly held values want to blame "star trek" in the prime directive for the reason they don't want to interfere that's a mere joke third don't interfere the development and seriously thinking to myself no, no, no, they would never do that right? because her steadying it it's us future chaos. liquid got a lot more questions. let me ask a couple of them if i can kinda quickly and will go through them that way. this one is from kurt, what is the difference in the marketplace on the cyber platform with this information in tv radio?
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repeat the light engage with earlier. could be debate and marketplace ideas and lies and manipulation. makes a difference in cyberspace versus where every things equal input in their 2 cents. the walter cronkite. so i think another big difference is the way this information which we were just getting at. i wouldn't say there is a real normal equitable debate on social media platforms. i've been looking at groups lately. and people in groups talk about filter bubbles it's like a filter concrete bunker. there is no way into some of these groups for they are secret or close they don't include people that get booted. but not only that the platform
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incentivize people to have similar groups. they like to say is not in the digital public squares for digital living in. it's like no, no, no it's a digital creepy basement where you talk about things you should be talking about. in the public square, right? and they are incentivizing so that is the real problem right now. i don't know if you have a thing to add. i would completely agree with you. the initial creepy basement but even in your real digital creepy basement he would not have six people there. really only limited to actual human beings. i think this is another way the marketplace of ideas get distorted where the voices are limited to the people who are actually they are pretty going to go to the speakers corner that appeals are gonna walk away from the ones that don't. there's artificial amplification of a particular idea.
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and so it's cheating. it's cheating on the marketplace of ideas digital platforms can't find effective ways to remove those fake voices, they're not approximating the true public square. >> i love that digital creepy basement. [laughter] got a few more minutes left here. i'm going to do is weave together two questions. one from robert and percy pennsylvania and one from the ohio state university as potentially if we were in a disinformation or with russia, are we still, or is it the case that basically homegrown forces have learned the lessons from russians there may be other third party as well. and the russians can walk away. they can declare a truce and the problem doesn't go away. if we accept that may be the case would we do about it going forward? >> i would savor absolutely
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still in information over the breccia. we've not imported cost on russia to the extent that have been a necessary deterrent for our government, parts of our government executive branch has openly with the systems in terms of interference related to the election. not only that, the social media companies have not close off all of the avenues that the foreign adversaries are using to manipulate her discourse. it is such a low cost in terms of human and monetary spend there's no reason any bad actor would stop right now it's really quite effective. and in terms of evidence for that, even in 2017 is the flash mob story that i told before that was after the election. as interference in midterm election looking for troll accounts or they weren't necessarily there. instead what is happening is these vectors of
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disinformation being somewhat manipulated by bad actors their informational laundering. rather than creating a fake account and use that to amplify certain narratives. being introduced and laundered through an authentic american voice which makes it very difficult to push back against. politically it's kryptonite. about the crowdstrike conspiracy theory that we kept hearing as well as a narrative kind of a trump anime. all this was laundered through foreign actors. again we don't know whether if it was only to ukraine or some russian influence there with these folks were working with rudy giuliani. plan summed up as part of the congressional record.
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to track and prove. but i don't think there's any reason for any bad actor and rushes one of the most adaptable. anything else you want to add? think that's one of the biggest lessons you're entering dangerous territory. i think as an example of a place where a domestic government-sponsored disinformation out barabbas' essentially is helping bolster an authoritarian regime and also a lot of sectarian violence. i think the only thing standing between you as the free press. and i think the last lesson i would say is the press is going to have to accommodate the new arena because there is a way that the press tries to grapple with neutrality in many ways help amplify its
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information. you have to call ally ally i guess. then kind of crossing that middle line is very difficult i think from an journalistic point of view. but something in grapple with birds directly got to wrap right now but let me end by saying you can get nina's book everywhere were books are sold. alright alright you win. thank you all so much. thanks to both of you for joining our discussion thank you offer tuning interview question questions. and congratulations again to you nina and buy the book. thank you, thanks everyone. thank you. ♪ ♪ the macbook to be on cspan2 has nonfiction books and authors every weekend. coming up saturday at 5:30 p.m. authors elizabeth, robin kelly, and cornell west
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talked about the black lives matter movement. on sunday, at 9:00 p.m. eastern on "after words", university of california berkeley laufer professor and deputy assistant general and the george w. bush administration john you with his book defender in chief looks at presidential powers and the u.s. constitution very he is interviewed by mark roselle author george mason university founding dean with the school of policy and government. watch book tv on cspan2's two during a virtual vet hosted by the manhattan institute douglas murray associate editor at the spectator talks about the impact of covid-19 on political discourse. here is a portion. >> might only expectation with this virus is that it makes people double down on what they already stopped. that doesn't course mean
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they're getting much reach with it. but just as certain figures in who want to pull sovereignty more of why we need to pull sovereignty more simulate those in italy the next nation not all unchecked that odd just the identity of the social justice and the exception to that extent it took slightly longer here than it did there for people to start letting the social justice identity war again. and people started by saying women suffer more than men from the virus then there are males disproportionately likely to die of the virus they double down and say men
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might begin the dying but it's women who are doing the suffering. one year the endless debates about which ethnic minorities made may not be suffering more from it and the presentation of those questions instead been questions about why might that be, simply the presentation of it being yet more evidence of the racism of the surviving living so that we can't even get a virus from china that we can actually racist society with all of britain. all of that has been going on my prediction of it is what will happen is people will double down as they arty have simply because attila gave me know how to play. they know how to look at the world unless through those spectacles. an intelligent person a more troubled person might think of time like this something comes
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along that you have never thought about before is possible in all of your pre-existing views may not be justified and vindicated by the arrival of this virus. you might think you need to try something else. those people will not because this is the one which they can see everything. but they would expect to predict a bit less public sympathy for the claims being made because because of the week spectator when there's off a lot of people the country have a declining living standard there's an awful lot of people have seen unemployment come through their family. out off a lot of people have real grievances. it isn't fairly unlikely to my mind they will want to spend very much time listening to people with made-up grievances. see back to watch the rest of this discussion visit our website and search douglas murray for the title of his book, the madness of crowds.
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>> you are watching tv on cspan cspan2, television for serious readers. here are some programs to watch out for this weekend. one author interview program "after words" former deputy assistant attorney general in the george w. bush administration weigh in on presidential powers in the u.s. constitution. harvard university professor cornell west hasn't author discussion on the black lives matter movement read the wall street journal jennifer levitz invested the recent college scandals larry tire counsel lat late. [inaudible] for more information consult your program guide is it stay back welcome everybody to wear to be go from here, discussion and debate on the discussion of the movement for black lives with justice and society. i know you could be anywhere and drink


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