chairman charles koch and later jennifer armstrong profiles four women who are pioneers in the television industry. find more schedule information at booktv.org or consult your program guide. >> i'm so pleased to introduce today's speakers. james u jails daryle has been a priest, playwright, honorary degreesoff universities and win all of that he has had time to write 12 novels and eight works of nonfiction, including the cloister and constantine sword. he had an op-ed in the "boston globe" and in the nick, the atlantic and others. he is the recipient of the national book award pen award the scrips howard worried. he is joined by mike rezendes.

he is with the global discretion team at the "associated press." and previously worked for the boston globe spotlight team and shared a pulitzer prize for revealing the coverup of sexual abuse any catholic church. mike has been a pulitzer prize finalist twice. recently he posted an article exposing the church for taking ppe aid during covid-19 while sitting 0 billions. they're discussing the truth at the heart of the lie. james looks at him, his faith and the catholic church itself. he argued that a male supremacist clericalism is the root cause and the ongoing enabler of the sexual abuse crisis. this book is both an exposure of the problem and a call for the much needed reform. i'll leave you with this quote

from city green green. this book written from a deep personal experience takes us to the heart of one of the great institutional and existential crisis of our time and on that note of praise i'll turn this over to our speakers, jim and make, thank you for joining us. >> a pleasure to be here. >> and me, too. i have to jump at the chance to thank you, audrey and the harvard book store folks, jeff, before jeff -- i just told mike i think i've introduced almost every one of my books at the harvard book story. my book isn't published until i'm at the harvard book store, but tonight mike i have to say, it's more than a normal pleasure and honor to be with you. the work i recount in this book, it took its most important impetus from the work you did

and do, and i'm so grateful for the chance to salute you permanently and thank you for the grave and thoughtful work you have done all these years. without you, and your colleagues, but in a very particular way you, this deeply troubling scandal that is at the heart of the catholic problem today and therefore my own personal problem, without you it would still be mostly hidden. so, i'm thrilled to have this chance to be in conversation with you. thank you so much. >> well, so very nice of you to say, and i think i have to follow that up by saying that through all my years of questioning and doubting my own catholicism, i did grow up a practicing catholic and much of my family are still devout catholics. you were writing your column in the blonde globe and when i tried to explain how i felt about the catholic church i often use short hand and say i'm

a james carroll catholic, meaning i try hard to believe and sometimes fail. so, i appreciate your remarks very much, and as someone who has spent much of the last 20 years investigating the catholic church and covering the clergy sex abuse crisis of crisis i was so impressed with your book overall, moved by your book, and improved it was motivate by the clergy sexual abuse crisis in the church. there's a point where you say that -- well, you describe your book as a memoir of faith, and it is that. but also it strikes me as a chronicle of a crisis of faith, and at one point you describe yourself as a shattered believer, forced to confront the corruption at the heart of my faith. that's really incredibly strong language and i'd just be interested in whether you could

talk to us about how you came to feel so impassioned and angry about this issue. >> well, you won't be surprised, mike, when i say that i have been living with this particular problem as a catholic for many, many years. going back even before the great work of the spotlight time. i began as a columnist in the early 1990s with the "boston globe" and one of my first column was the james porter case, father james porter, priest in i believe fall river. >> that's correct. >> who was a predator, and the boston globe's reporting on the porter case was the beginning of the globe's challenge to the church, although it didn't come to its climax until the work of the spotlight team. but i have been aware of this perversion in the priesthood for

decades now. i was a catholic priest myself, as you know, from 1969 to 1974, and as i recount in this book, i wasn't aware of it then. i was what i would call complicit denial of this problem, and my colleagues, someone you got to know very well or got to know about him very well, was paul shandly, catholic chaplain at boston state college, as umass boston was called in those days. a catholic chaplain at boston university, and even though i had certain issues with paul shandly, i was one of many people who thought of him as an upstanding priest doing really good work. was blind to the blatant predator behavior that he was guilty of, and for which he spent a good number of years in prison as a result of the work that "boston globe" did.

>> right. >> and you. so i've been aware of this problem, but it didn't take me back from my place at the altar, going to communion, going mass every week, practicing my faith, finding a way to live with what i knew about the corruptions of some priests and almost all bishops. the story for me always has been a minority of priests abuse children, almost all of the bishops protected the predators instead of the victims, and to me that's always been the main revelation, the deep dysfunction here, but what i'm trying to say is that business as usual became impossible for me with -- in these years of appropriate francis' pontiff cat and that seems an out thing to say. he arrived as a breath of fresh air for catholics like me. thought of him and think of him

as someone in the john xxiii mold. the pope of the second vatican council this he reforming pope who tried to help the catholic church wreck cop with what had been laid bear during the holocaust. i thought francis' role was to help the church reckon what was laid bare in the priestly sex abuse crisis, and all of the great work francis has done and all he represents, concern for migrants, defense of democracy against populism, concern for the climate, savage critic of inequality and rein walkway capitalism, all of that precious work he has done, the most important single thing the had to do as pope for the chump, but for the world, was finally reckon with what had been laid bare by the priestly sex abuse candle and has failed to do it.

that's my perception. failed to do it. what realize even francis was in the grip of the clericalism, this culture of priestly exception at the root of the dysfunction of sex abuse in the church and even francis could not reckon with it, something is a say in the book snapped in me. the corruption is not news. but the depth of the crux that -- corruption that prevented even the best of the catholic church -- what's that francis in a way represents to me -- that prevents even the best to deal with the corruption, meant to me that this business as usual as a catholic was over. i haven't, quote, leveled the church, but i've -- left the church but i'm stepped back from my practice of the faith. i don't go to mass now.

i'm in exile from normal practice of the faith and that's my own way of refusing to go on with business as usual and i lay out an explanation and a challenge in this book to invite other people, whether they're catholics, former catholics, people who had nothing to do with the church to take an attitude and position about this problem, because it goes even more deeply into the life of the world than this particular religion. that's a bit of a long-winded way of answering your question about how this corruption has landed on me, but that's it. >> sure. you mentioned a moment when you snapped, and i think that's a very compelling pat of the book and a particular anecdote, something that francis said that was the kind of straw that breck the camel's back for you. do you want to recount that? >> the season of the snap was the summer of 2018, when pope

francis went to ireland on so-called papal visit or pilgrimage, and a lot of us thought, well, this will be the occasion finally for francis to unveil a serious mantling of the structure of clerk calism which has led to criminal behavior on the part of the church. why? because ireland was ground zero of the priest abuse crisis. when you and your colleagues at the globe laid bare the sure rid line in boston, people in rome and elsewhere said that's just boston because of the boston -- the catholic boston -- the boston catholics have a special problem. boom. what you guys set in motion led quickly to the revelations it

wasn't a boston problem, it was an american problem. the europeans immediately said that's an american problem. it's american catholics have the problem. no boom. germany, france, astoria, dash astoria, poland, netherlands, we have yet to see the reckoning and over these years we're looking at a problem that exists everywhere that our catholic priests, nowhere more grievously than in ireland, and in ireland, something approaching 20,000 victims of priests in a small country. i've said before, i say in the book, it's reasonable to think that everyone in ireland is somehow related to a victim of a priest which accounts for the collapse of the catholic church in ireland. >> right. >> what's that pop francis was

oning into and why some of us thought here is when he'll gibb to reckon with it, and he didn't. that was always the season of revelations in philadelphia, a grand jury laid bare accusations against hundreds of priests involving more than a thousand children, also when 15 u.s. attorneys general opened up investigations against catholic diocese around the united states, soon thereafter, cardinal mckerrick was found guilty of abuse by a vatican tribunal. one of the most powerful figures in the catholic church. you remember remember it. all of this came crashing down, tsunami of revelation, around the time of pope francis' pilgrimage and when he was the thing you are referring to and i recount in the book, the snap,

one of this scandalous aspects of the irish story was the so cathedral mag do len -- a revolution that broke the heart of the i-his people that showed not just priests but nuns were capable of great crueltity. the ryan report that came out after the spotlight team did did its work in boston but was underway for some years before that, and the ryan report showed that hundreds of catholic church-run institutions were treating children as slaves, and in many case sex slaves. pope francis wassing a but the mag magdalene laundry, homes for unwed marry run by sisters and women and church were subject to grotesque terms of abuse and it was exposes then, hundreds -- many hundreds of corpses 0 babies were uncovered in the

grounds of some of these convents, some of them thrown into sewage pits. a scandal that kind of arrived as a crescendo in ireland. there were movies made about it. documentary films. there was a film starting judy dench called filimena. a huge scandal, pope francis was asked about it by a reporter on his airplane going back to rome, and his answer was what made me snap. he said, i do not know about these -- they called them -- his phrase was, the laundromat ladies. >> yes. >> something like -- use the word laundromat. i do not know about these things. i do not know about them.

he denied knowing about them. and i thought at the time, the pope must be lying because it was so well-known, how could he not. and i thought that's unfair of me, which it is. but even if he was telling the truth and didn't know them, that said something almost as bad. how could the pope of the catholic church not know about this scandal and that's when i thought, snap, pope francis ii is in the grip of this malicious disdisfunctional, criminal culture, and when a figure of his generosity and goodness, which is so clear and palpable, would -- his depth of goodness is at the mercy of this, i

thought this clericalism, this priests apart, priests above, priests unaccountable, priest protected, this clericalism is demonic and i can no longer associate myself with it. and i haven't been to mass as a catholic since then. >> well, for you that's saying a great deal that was a life-long practice for you and so that is a reflection of the impact this has had on you. you go at some length persuasively to talk how it is that pope francis has this incredible blind spot when it comes to clergy sex abuse and you finger clericalism as the dark villain in the story. i wonder if you could just define clericalism a little more for people and talk about how it came to be that clericalism gave rise to this crisis. >> well, we think of the priests in the catholic church as having

going all the way back to jesus and in fact the catholic church says that the 12 apostles were the first priests and because they were all men, women can't be priests. so, there's this notion that the priesthood was there at the beginning. it's not true. the priesthood as know it evolved over the centuries, beginning in roman empire when the catholic church and the roman empire became the same thing, when the officials of the church took on the characteristics of roman officials so priests became officials of the church. and then in the middle ages when the pyramids structure of catholic power was created imitating the monarch constituent, with the pope at the top, like a king, the bishops, like royalty, and along the side of the pyramid and then at the bottom, the priests, all of them officials in this power structure. clericalism is the power

structure. the reason the bishops looked the other way when predator priests were exposed wasn't because that it were indifferent to the crimes of these priest. it wasn't. it wasn't they didn't care but the children. it was that the most important thing for them was protecting this pyramid of power on which their own status depended, and the way to do that was to protect everybody in it, so even a predator priest joined on that pyramid of power had to be protected, so he was not held accountable. he was moved to someplace writ wasn't known, able to go on abusing people and so on. that's the first thing i would say but a clericalism. of court it depends on three pillars. number one, it's all male. this is a male supremacist structure. >> right. >> the denigration of woman is essential to it which is why no

woman can be a priest, the nonsense about the 12 apostles, no women in the 12 apostles and no women can be priests. >> you call that a blatant lie in the book. >> it is a blatant lie. the only priests the apostles knew were the jewish priests at the temple. that's the only way the priesthood had meaning in the time of jesus. no women can be priests. priest have to be celibate. sexual control of priests is seem to this, the same way the sexual control by the hierarchy of lay people through an erotic sexual morality, including the condemnation of birth control and so forth. women absolutely not allowed to be sexually autonomous persons; so, all male priesthood, celibate and there's a third leg

to the structure which is a damning god. a god who is so offended by the scene of adam and eve, especially eve, put it on the woman -- so offend by the sin of adam and eve, the fall, that god requires human beings to suffer to make up for that sin. the economy of suffering as willed by god. god damns you if you don't make up for the sin you committed and you inherited from adam and eve. this structure of doom is a structure from which we lay people are protected by the ministries of the priests. we go to confession, confession saves us from the god of doom. when i grew up as a kid, we had a card we used to carry in our wallet, we catholics, that said

in case of an accident, please call a priest. what was that about? i needed to have a priest forgive my sins on my moment of death. otherwise i was going to go to hell. i mean, excuse me? what kind of god is this? what kind of sadist monster is this? i want to spend all eternity in heaven with such figure? one of the sad things about pope francis is he is thoroughly repudiated the leftover legacy of the god of doom, which the catholic church began to come out from under during the second vatican council. pope francis published a wonderful book about the mercy of god, mercy is pope francis' calling card, his merciful, not damning. but even last week, or ten days ago, the vatican issued a rejection of gay marriage,

saying that god does not bless sin. god does not bless these relationships. that's the old damning, dooming god, from whom pope francis had declared independence in the beginning of this papacy when he said about gay people, who am i to judge? it's a long way from who am i to judge to, what we got last week, about god doesn't bless sin. so clericalism is this entire structure of power. antisex, antiwoman, antilay people, and it's intention is to protect the power of the hire aki. it's a violation of human rights, it's a violation of justice, but more to the point for us catholics it's a violation of the gospel. it betrays everything that jesus

christ stood for. clericalism is the problem, mike. i'm not telling you system but catholic church has yet to deal with it. >> can you stay on celibacy. think a lot of people outside the catholic church and many people within the catholic church don't understand why it's a requirement and as you point out in your book, it was not a requirement until the first council of 1123. so, if the church went so long without the celibacy requirement, how is it that pope francis and his predecessors have refused to even discuss the matter? >> well, that's another great question. the first thousand years of the catholic church most priests and even many bishops were married people with wives and children. it was when the catholic church embraced the kill tour of the mop nark can i of the middle

ages -- the monarchy of the middle ages women have fantasies but the crusades and king richard the lionheart and the great figures of royalty. the papacy, reimagined itself around the structure of royalty, and it was beginning then that this power system was embraced by the church, and one of the ways that the church had to embrace that power system was by controlling its property, which meant that the people administering the property, priests, shouldn't have heirs, so that the church itself wouldn't have to compete with the heirs of clergy for ownership of the property, vast swaths of lands, especially in europe, but also that the inner lives of priests subject to this

power structure needed to be controlled, and the control of sexuality, the control of sexual identity, is a profound way of controlling a person. celibacy is a function of church power over clergy. it's also rooted in a deeply noor rot -- neurotic rejection of human sexuality. goes back to the mistaken reedread office the story of adam and eve which understood the fall as a sexual sin are. there's no reason in the scripture to see it that way. we don't want to go too far in the weeds here burt this an idea that begins with power, augustin, and comes into its own with the celibate priest and the sexually noor rot -- neurotic

catholic. sexual license, sexual autonomy. there was no birth control. abortion an absolute moral prohibition no room for complexity. no identity as a gay person. although clearly in the catholic tradition, many, many, many clergy have been gay. >> sure. >> so, there's and-the deep contradiction in that, that gay clergy themselves forced to demonize gay sex, is a signal of the deep neurosis of the system. so, i'm talking about clericalism. >> exactly. >> it's a simple idea and once you open your mind to it, you realize how dark and really destructive it is, and catholic priests today are at the mercy of it, and many of. the, most of them, if heroic

lives despite the stricture of the clerical culture, but alas, many of them, most of them, have been forced by the culture into complicity with those who are prone to abuse others out of that culture. so, how is it that so many -- not just bishops but priests were silent or looked the other way when their brother priests were raping children? >> to me that complicity is a huge part of the phenomenon of clergy abuse in the catholic church, and it's exhibit a and why it's so difficult to root out. that complicity is key. i had my critics and my reporting, and i'm sure you have yours in your writing, and my critics often say to me, why are you so taken with sex abuse in

the catholic church? we have sex abuse in the boy scouts, in the public schools, sex abuse even on the u.s. gymnastics and you point that out in your book and yet you say but clergy sex abuse, child sex abuse in the catholic church, stands apart, and i wonder if you could talk about that. why is so it much more important to focus on sexual abuse in the catholic church than sex abuse in other institutions? >> the stories that you and your colleagues at the boston globe laid bare again and again and again showed our priests and abusing children invoked the name of god. invoked the name of god. this is what god wants us to do. you are special to god because of this. they even exploit the sacrament of penance, confession, approaching people in confession, cardinal law

famously and you reported this, silenced an accuser by ordering him under the seal of confession to tell in one of his accusation do you remember that. >> i'll never forget it. >> the priest sex abuser, unlike the boy scott sex abuser, say 0, even the family sex abuser, tragically the family is a locus of sex abuse, too -- but unlike all of those others, there's a kind of transcendent element to what the priest is doing which makes the victim all the more vulnerable especially when the culture of silence in the name of god is imposed on the victim. the trauma your reporting shows this, the trauma that victims of priests carry away from this experience is itself transcendent. it's of a special order, not to

mention the way in which this violation of the claims made for what the priesthood is, exceptionally virtuous, generous, selfless, celibacy, symbol of the priest giving himself holy to the community, not putting himself first. poverty, chastitiy and obedience. the claims made for the priest, this crime in this context is of a different order. i'm not telling you myth. you've seen it. but that's the answer. and it -- you see it in the rage and the wound of the victims. the victims must be -- always must be front and center for us as the standard against which we measure the meaning of this crime and when you listen to the

testimony of victims -- you have made it powerful -- then you do understand that something uniquely malevolent is at work here. and that goes to the bishops who treat this as not that big a deal, and who continue to think rhetorical expressions of sorrow are enough instead of seriously dismantling what led to it and what keeps it going. >> yes. i think the situation with the bishops is particularly noteworthy, vary few have been disciplined for covering up clergy sex abuse. there's been a recent provision to deal with bishops who cover up clergy sex abuse. it's the pope's -- you are the light of the world, and that

seemed to me to be a really toothless attempt to discipline bishops or hold bishops to account who cover up clergy sex abuse and i wonder if you could talk about that. that was heavily promote the vatican as appropriate francis' way of dealing with if the crisis once and for all. >> i refer to the summer of 2018. the pressure built on pope francis to address this crisis which he hadn't really done. he announces after the pushback after ireland he would dress it by shopping a meeting of bishops in rome. believe he announces that in september or october. for the following february. >> right. >> some of us were immediately suspicious. i sensed it's like asking the mafia chieftains to be on the

crime commission. >> yes, you do. >> and sure enough, the bishops met in rome. remember that the bishops are complicit in this probable re. the very people who have been covering its up for years, two decades now, two decade just since the globe, since you guys -- >> that's right. >> but going back decades before that, at the first revelations, these bishops are complicit, and they issue -- they had their meeting and reported to the pope. that was in february. and then a couple of months later, i think in may, the document you're referring to, you are the light of the world, was published, and what was the main solution to the problem? when priest or bishops are accused of a crime against a

child, it was immediate -- a meeting was called on the protection of children. when the accused, they were obliged to report it. report it to whom? >> there we go. >> report to other bishops. >> right. >> there's no requirement in you their light of the world to report these crimes to civil authority, even though in many countries they're obliged to. so if priests or bishops obey the law in the united states, they will report the crime to civil authorities as they're obliged to but there's no requirement from the church they do that. no requirement of transparency in "you their light of the world." no requirement that there be transparency. no requirement for participation of lay people in this adjudication of accusations. and there's no mandated penalty.

listen, if a woman attempts to say mass, she is by very to all of that attempt, ex-communicated from the church. there's no equivalent penalty for an abusing priest, even today. mandated removal from holy orders. so, what you have in that document from the spring of 2019, "you are the light of the word" which is touted as the church's finally reckoning with the problem, it's a clericalist protection of clericalism. the structure of bishops protecting bishops, priests protecting priest is still in place. >> exactly. i thought that was particularly disspiritting when that came out. many of us were suspicious from the beginning but still it seemed to present no real

substantive progress on the issue ,. >> by the way seems look the last word. have you noticed? the subject has disappeared from discourse in the church as far as i'm aware. >> exactly. that was supposed to be the last word and maybe it will be the last word, at least until the next crisis explodes which is inevitable. who knows where it will be but it's inevitable because the church has not found a way to deal with it. it's going to be -- one crisis after another, one crisis after another, and they'll start developing another parts of the world, already in latin america many victims are coming forward and i personally was impressed with the huge blind spot pope francis has on this issue when he referred to the victims of chile has liars and it was i thought a moment of candor as opposed to a moment of pique. this thought he was expressing his true feeling, and just been incident after incident, like

the one with the mag laundry in ireland where he just seems to -- either afraid of the issue, doesn't understand the issue, i'm not sure what it is. but i have to agree with your assessment he has failed to do will enough a substantive and effective way. >> i think on the chile hires -- liers moment, he did repent of that. >> he did repent of that. in a major way. >> but envelopes -- >> i thought it was a measure of his feeling, his emotions. >> his n his goodness he is a man of his own life-long experience. he has been living inside this clerical culture, and even though he has some capacity to criticize it, he does actually criticize clericalism, but it's never -- never clear what he means by it. >> often criticizes it.

>> so there's a kind of tragic quality of being caught, caught in his own life speakerrens, caught by the limits of the situation. he is presiding over a profoundly confused and dysfunctional structure at the vatican with a lot of reactionary catholics who are pushing back against him. they clearly are having an effect, which i why their there's such a difference between the statement two weeks ago on gay people and gay marriage from earlier in his pontiffat. but the final message is the power of this pyramidal -- i don't believe it's going to be able to stand up, the only institution in the world that will stand up against the rising wave of feminist rejection of

such male abuse, and women in the catholic church are going to be the -- already the point persons of real demand for change, and that's happening. >> yes. that brings me to something i want to talk about before we get to late in the evening which is the ending of your book where you do have a prescription for how the church might change, and how people might change the church, and hopeful message when it comes to the faith of individuals, particularly in jesus christ who is the truth at the heart of the lie you mentioned. so i did want to give you a chance to speak about how things might turn in a positive direction. >> people might be surprised given the strong critique we're both leveling against the power structure of the church to know that in the end i have chosen not to leave the catholic

church. i'm an internal exile is how i think of myself. on the margin of the church but speaking back to the center of it and calling for change. the reason is simple. i believe that the church exists to keep the memory of jesus christ alive ubs so -- to make his presence felt, jesus christ is real to me. i owe my connection to jesus christ to the church, and i'm desperate to protect that connection. i also am deeply, deeply connected to the vast population of catholics, more than a billion people all over the planet, and they are people who are doing the work of the church, of the lord, what we used to call the corporal works of mercy. the spiritual works of mercy,

doctors and nurses and medical people, clinics, schools, tens of thousands of education centers, women leading these efforts in many if not most places, all people associated with the catholic church, and it's an institution that is not going to go away. i associate with those people. they are the church. and i also associate with the impulse that i've seen in my own life story which began with the second vatican council, in the earl 1960s when the church began to rock con with its grievous failure during the holocaust and what did the couple do as a first order of business? it overturned the roots of antisemitism in christian life, and it also repudiated the idea that god has turned away from

the jewish people. those are the single most important theological changes in christianity and they're much larger than anything to do with sex or gender. so change is possible. i've seen it in my own life and my own life in the church. i'm desperate for that kind of change. >> i think that's a great note to just turn to questions right now. change is possible. i think it's very important to keep in mind. i've seen it over and over and over again. so, this is a question that i think you might be especially interested in. it's -- the individual says, i'm a pastor at a city parish in boston, and have been serving as priest for 24 years. at this critical moment in church history what at vice and counseling would you give to those who are working against the tide of clear calism and the men wrongs you point out in your latest book?

>> i welcome that observation and question, and i'll answer it quite forthrightly. first i'd like to say i salute you for your struggle, father, and i'm grateful to you for it, and i understand -- i thick understand what is implied in your comment and question. and i think of all the many, many, many priest i have known and know who are in a similar situation, heroic people in my view. but i will also say that priests have huge power at this moment in the life of the church, and priests as a group are not exercising it. priests know of the corruptions of clericalism as well or better than anybody, and if priests as a group, whether in a diocese, a

nation, a region, or perhaps even globally could somehow raise their voice demanding change, admit women to the priesthood, change the rule of celibacy, move away from these ing me neurotic emin sis on sexual morallate. if prees did that the power of their voice would break the log jam and i think back to the greatest example of this i know of took place here in boston, perhaps father you knew some of these folks, or know them and are still here, but cardinal law was riding high when "the boston globe" spotlight team did its work, and cardinal law had the full backing even as the scandal was laid bare of the powers in rome. it was only when the priests of

the satisfied archdiocese decreesed a letter to cardinal law, we in the undersigned pries of the archdiocese -- i'm paraphrasing -- have lost confidence in you and we are calling on you to resign. and it was a letter signed by i believe 51 senior priests mostly, pastors. >> right. >> some some of them friends of mine, and cardinal law resigned immediately. the support he still had in rome, which would have kept him in office, was indicated by the fact that he went to rome immediately and was given a prestigious place in rome which he had until he died. itself weren't for the priests of the archdiocese of boston the scandal in boston would have festered on in even more destructive ways and who knows

what would have happen. a great prophetic witness of the priests. i think a version of that could happen today. priests in boston could make a vociferous challenge to the inhumane, male supremacist injustice exclusion of women the he priesthood and they could make a clear and authentic challenge to the antifemale sexist, corrupt tradition of required priestly sell balances si, just for starters -- celibacy, just for starters. >> seems at the end of the book you're call fargo spirit of activism withins the church. >> resistance is a word we used to use the antiwar movement back in the day. we talked about having that in common. resistance is what is needed. anticlericalism from within is what i call it.

anticlericalism from within, and we are the conscientious object ors of the church. we need to raise our voices. don't need to just sit quietly and detach ourselves from this. we need to resist it, fight it. that's why i've written this book. we all have ways to do this, and many catholics are doing its just by walking away, which is also a powerful statement. the second largest religious denomination in america, religious denomination, defined broadly, is former catholics. and that in itself is a powerful witness. so i think that we all -- the church belongs to the people and the people have to take charge of it. >> here's a question that goes to your point. the person asks: do you remember the group voice of the faithful? would such a group help correct the problems? perhaps he can reintroduce the

groups. >> voice of the faithful is one of the immediate and powerful responses to the globe's spotlight work. was privileged to address one of the first voice of the faithful meetings held at the heinz auditorium. several thousand people demanding church -- that the slogan of voice of the faithful was keep the faith, change the church. >> right. >> that's the perfect slogan for this movement. voice of the faithful still guess on and hasn't been as powerful also it was in the beginning because for many reasons, largely i think a lot of people have walked away, but also because business as usual has become kind of the -- of the life of the church. voice of the faithful and versions office it are crucial -- versions of it are crucial going forward and there are quieter moms of resistance within the catholic tradition right now. groups led by women, women leading religious services

including in the eucharistic tradition. there's wonderful, powerful international movement of catholic lay people demanding change. so, these things are happening, and it's actually not hard to find instances all around us. >> you have touched on this issue but there are several questions here asking you to address the subject of women's ordination and this one says as a remedy to address the current moral crisis within the church, and if so, if you do support this, then how do you express your support and how should one express support for women's ordination. i think you addressed that but i did did want to point out we have he many questions but this subject. >> women's ordination is the point of the wedge. it's not like -- when you say

women's ordination we're not talking about bringing women into a sin na cure on that pyramid. we're talking about overthrowing the pyramids. the opposite of patriarchry is not mates track custom it's power of the people. the? the movement to bring women into the priesthood is itself a decisive element of change that would begin to change the entire culture , similarly bringing married people into the priesthood would begin to change the entire culture, and it's not as far-fetched as its seems. let me just quickly say , not so long ago, the pope summoned all the bishop from the a. son basin in latin america to come to rome to address the major crisis of the priest

shortage in the amazon region. ten thousand catholics for every priest as opposed to in the united states, it's two or three thousand checks for every priest. the priest shortage, major crisis for the catholic church in the amazon. the amazon bishoped asked the pope two things. one, allow married deacons to become priests, which would have brought married men into the priesthood. and, two, to bring women into i -- it is one of the holy orders that for most of 1500 years was part of the clerical system. it went -- it went into disuse hundreds of years ago but brought back in the 1960s. the diacinit married people not

in the clerical culture but doing everything priests do except say mass, hear confessions and i think administer the last rites but they reach, preside at weddings, preside at baptisms. they're part of the clerical system if you will without being part of the clerical culture. that's an example of how francis could move this thing forward, ordaining women, women, catholic people, need to demand it. it's a matter of justice. it's -- this is the era of #metoo. is the catholic church really going to be immune from the demands of women to be treat as full equals? >> hearings another question right up your alley. can we rely on priests to be change agent inside they have been taught brain washed to follow.

i think it is similar to a soldier and the hierarchy of the military. >> well, alas implied in the question is the disappointment many of us feel that priests as a group, even while individually, they may be heroically standing for a new kind of church, as group they are not, and one does wonder why. i remember from my open time as a priest the pressures, also the feelings of frankly unworthiness that were -- went hand in hand with the call to be perfect which is one of the things that we felt obliged to imagine, which is itself a kind of inhumane fantasy. i wouldn't be so happen as to say priest -- hearn as to say priests are brain washed but the fully inculcated into the system

of clericalism, even the priests who are wise enough and humane enough to reject it in principle but have to find ways to reject it in reality. some of my most vociferous critics are liberal priests who insist that i'm wrong when i indict the priesthood as such by saying they want to dish between the wicked clericalism and the good priesthood. ... >> the lack of traction that is been made on all of these issues in the continuing power structure. what is in the incident to stay in center practicing somewhat more progressive or leading organization religion altogether.

james: that is a decision to be made in sacred confines of one's own conscious i know many many good people who have left the catholic church and understand it. damon saluted. and i'm a different choice. i am not actually, i am inviting others to consider it but not actually advocating it. my own a few is this institution is worth fighting for. i believe that the future of the human species, i don't want to be grand about a bit this is what i believe. the future of the human species at a time and when we are fretting with self extinction, any number of ways by technologies, our weapons, our corruption of the climate. when we are threatened with self extension, think the human species this definitely a need of the humane reformed justice minded roman catholic church.

if only because of this. people crossing every boundary. the illiterates, intellectually sophisticated. these are human beings everywhere in the planet. in their commonwealth, their community could be a tremendous force for good as a human species confronts this very dangerous future. what else do i have such access to influence on the great questions of war and climate and peace and as a citizen of the united states, yes. and that's why i am a devoted committed person working for justice and peace in the united

states. but also as a catholic. because this institution carries that kind of historical weight. and this is an issue that we have not touched on but i would be curious about your thoughts on the question is in the present time, how does the wealth of the church relate to clerical is him. james: will clerical is also suggests a lack of transparency and that power structure that i am talking about. it protects itself read it is committed to its own preservation above all the wealth of it is part of the story. the catholic church began a democratic reform in the second vatican council in which are targeted by panic stricken boats. one of the most important elements of that reform that was not implemented which

transparency across the board of all kinds and financial transparency is key. in the scandal of the church's abuse of money as well. it is one of the things that need to be confrontative. and you mike, you brought this to the floor. you reported about the way in which the catholic of the united states were exploiting the covid-19 relief money. in a nutshell will you remind me what you found. mike: sure, we found that the catholic church received or requested and received more than $3 billion in coronavirus relief aid to the patron program. any dioceses were also sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars in surplus funds and altogether, churches sitting on billions while taking billions of taxpayer money that

theoretically should be going to struggling small businesses so it strikes me that the catholic church is very concerned about money. is part of the power structure without any question. and therefore the question raised crucially important point. and i think that is right. and definitely, the diocese has closed any schools for a variety of different reasons but the best has about $200 million in reserve funds. that's not including any of its property and this is money and reserved. and there's a boston school foundation that has 30 $3m dollars on reserve uncommitted funds. so there's no doubt the catholic church likes acquiring money. receipt all of the time and is part of the power structure and perpetuates his power structure.

james: the democratic make reform of the church which is what i am talking about. we will address that problem in bringing in laypeople and transparency and accountability and basic principles of democratic which are nowhere and practice in the church today. mike: some of these questions just reflect some frustrations and somebody asking her, how do you reckon is something so large and so global. can change ever happened. james: i refer to something and passing before. the most important change in the catholic church in my mind entered my lifetime and i would argue in the entire history of the catholic church to place in 1954 and 1965. that was in relationship to the churches teachings on judaism. look is in the gospels, the gospels a group called the jews

for the murder of jesus. it was the romans who murdered jesus and if you read the gospel in history, you would think the pontius pilate was a good guy was forced to kill jesus by the jews. that is how deep into the catholic christian imagination that this goes. anti- judaism was exposed for what it was and what it did with lethal genocidal nancy murder. and after that, the catholic church and that's what led to the second vatican council which is why his first order of business was to change what was believing in teaching about the jews. the christ killer charge, contradicting the gospels on the account and renounce the idea that god would place the chosen people of the jews with a chosen

people of the church. there was gone. theologically, diluted. now it is true that the churches at the mercy of the hangover of this tradition. in the holy week, next week. catholics all of the world will hear the jews again in the gospel and hopefully, preachers will preach those against themselves and show how it is not true. and that won't happen much. but my point is that great change can happen and it can happen quickly. it takes an escort historical moment like of the holocaust, great leadership. excuse me. this was in that second vatican council who themselves lived through the holocaust. we have an equivalent moment

now. if the massive - of children if they preferring the predators to the victims, isn't a crime of the skills needed to change, that these basic levels, this corruption, then what is. and i would like to before we had, just acknowledge that if it weren't for the work of the germans and then the lawyers and the victims themselves, the scandal about massive crime against the children by the catholic priests, we would still be if not completely hidden. it would still be on the margin of people's consciousness. so anyone have this conversation without saluting you again.

an early critical work you did for all of those victims and for the broad culture. but also for the catholic church. i hope you will be insulted if i call in the coming devoted ministry that you did. and that you're doing still. mike: know, in fact i am flattered a party to the purpose journalism is to make change. and so i'm grateful that i had an opportunity to make change. i think the best thing about tonight is your very powerful and profound message of change and activism as possible. >> absolutely think you both know from just to time but the incredible amount of work that you have done and exposing these problems. being a voice and using your platform to help those who need it and someone to speak for

them. i am really happy that you're here today and speaking to us. so thank you very much on behalf of harvard bookstore. thank you so much. and to everyone who is watching, and i thank you so much for coming in and supporting any bookselling and the harvard bookstore publishers authors in the incredible staff. they are working everyday to bring events to you. i really am sorry if we do not get to your questions and partially there's just so any wonderful questions tonight. but luckily is a beautiful book that is called "the truth at the heart of the lie: how the catholic church lost it's soul" and there's a link in the chat if you would like to purchase it. and from all of us have harvard bookstores, continue to shop and shop local and thank you so much. james and mike any final word. james: i would love to say thank you to you andre and to jeff the best of my regards give that to him.

and my last word has to say thanks you might as well. what a privilege to be with you this evening. your thoughtful reading of my book is a great gift and do not take it for granted. mike: that is really wonderful book. thank you audrey. >> thank you and take care. >> book tv on "c-span2", every weekend at the latest nonfiction books and authors. tv the funding comes from the television company, to support "c-span2" is a public service. recent virtual events, whole food ceo john mackey spoke about his approach to leadership in business. here's a portion of the program. >> capitalism will actual i prefer the word for it, innovation is him. 's greatest thing in humanity that we are creating targeted as you go back, 200 years ago when

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